November 2019 Group Read 1/2 Gladiator

[Cheryl]

The polled members clearly wanted two books this month, so time to get your game on! This book, Gladiator, by Philip Wylie, has been nominated several times, and now it's finally won a poll. Let's join Jim to find the promised nuances of the character in this old adventure.

[Jim]

I read this about 5 years ago, unfortunately not the edition that has an introduction by Janny Wurts, though. I read a copy from Gutenberg.org (multiple formats & free) you can find here:
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42914

This time, I'm going to listen to it as an audiobook. It's free from Librivox here:
https://librivox.org/gladiator-by-phi...
or via Archive.org here:
https://archive.org/details/gladiator...

[Jim]

Philip Wylie is best known for When Worlds Collide & its sequel, After Worlds Collide by a GR friend who noted that the hero, Hugo Danner, was the progenitor of Superman. I grew up watching the 1950s Superman TV show starring George Reeves, so I thought I'd see. The resemblance is remarkable. It would be grounds for a law suit today.

There's some resemblance to Doc Savage too, although The Savage Gentleman (1932) is supposed to be even closer to him. After reading a book or two about the pulps & comics of this time, I'm not surprised. The writers swiped stuff from each other all the time.

The Disappearance (1951) is another book of Wylie's that I've been meaning to get around to reading. He imagines a world where all the women & men are separated, each sex getting a world without the other.

[Cheryl]

If I like this at all, I will check out the others.

[Jim]

From the reviews, I have a feeling "The Disappearance" is quite different from the rest.

[Cheryl]

ok, thanks

[Peter]

RE: Superman = Gladiator
This came up in an exchange with Jim. It's great:
http://www.rawbw.com/~svw/superman.html
"Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" (1969) by Larry Niven
Enjoy!

[Jim]

Hah! I've seen that before. I figured the fertility problem would be solved by hanging out on a planet with a red sun while the deed was done. Still, it's kind of a funny thought experiment. Thanks.

[Peter]

Joe Haldeman played on this in a pretty gross story a few years later. A Bionic Man wants to get laid, and goes to a pickup bar. It didn't end well, for either of them.
And mention should be made of Wonder Warthog, the "Hog of Steel". He's trying to get it up with a girl, but she makes fun of his "little curly thing". BIG mistake. "I can use my SNOUT!" Never make fun of a Superhero!
If there were equivalent stories with Superpowered women seeking romance (and/or casual sex), I've missed them. Help?

[Peter]

Peter wrote: "RE: Superman = Gladiator
This came up in an exchange with Jim. It's great:
http://www.rawbw.com/~svw/superman.html
"Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" (1969) by Larry Niven
Enjoy!"
**Intimate details of Superman's sex life revealed!"**
"Imagine ten million earthworm size spermatozoa swarming over a Metropolis beach, diving to fertilize the beach balls . . ."
ↂxↂ 😎

[Peter]

Ol' Larry could certainly spin a tale, in his glory days. . . ⚡️ 🚀 🎆

[Jim]

Well, perhaps we should get back to how Hugo handles his love life.

[Peter]

Jim wrote: "Well, perhaps we should get back to how Hugo handles his love life."

Spoilsport! 🙃

[Kateblue]

I've always loved "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" and I always thought Niven's short pieces were his best work. And now I have to find the other stories you talk about

As to Gladiator, Philip Wylie always struck me as a smoother writer than most of his contemporaries. I'm only 5% in, but excellent so far.

[Jim]

It's really an interesting story. I'd forgotten some of the dated, somewhat disturbing stuff. I'll hide my observations under a spoiler tag by chapter.

Chapter 1: I love the way it starts with "Once upon a time in Colorado..." It gives the book the flavor of a fable.
(view spoiler)[
Mrs. Danner is described as a big, grim, highly religious woman who understood nothing and undertook all. & is contrasted against her small, meek husband who is a scientific genius. Religion & science are at odds. Is that going to be a theme of the book?

I've never heard of a person named "Abednego" before. Odd name. Anyone know where it comes from?

Blood-stream radicals seem to be Mr. Danner's area of interest to impart the musculature of an insect to another species. Shades of Spiderman! The idea of tadpoles beating up their tank & jumping across the room was cool.

The matter of fact way he bred the cat & disposed of all but one kitten by drowning the others is pretty rough today, but it used to be common. There's a story by Robert E. Howard called "The Beast from the Abyss" which describes barn cats of his day, about this same time. You can read it here for free:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Be...
It didn't change much until the 1980s, I think. That's when I recall neutering & spaying coming to farms, anyway. Spaying was really expensive at first, not something a farmer would spend money on. Besides, it was good enough for grandpa.

The scene of the cat killing a cow was pretty cool. I liked the idea of a somewhat drunken farmer on the hunt & finding such an odd opponent.

Deciding it is too dangerous, Mr. Danner poisons the cat. The dying agonies of Samson, aged seven weeks, were Homeric. He contemplates how dangerous his work could be & the chapter ends. It's pretty obvious he's going to take his work a step further, but it doesn't make much sense at this point. (hide spoiler)]

It's a good set up for the people & town. There's both a really rural feel & yet we have some town life with a college. Best of both worlds.

[Jim]

Chapter 2 & 3: (view spoiler)[
The reveal of the pregnancy & description of the sex life was both funny & sad.
They had, in fact, avoided its mechanics except on those rare evenings when tranquillity and the reproductive urge conspired to imbue him with courage and her with sinfulness.
Equating sex with sin has to be one of the worst products of religion. It's disgusting.

After the way the first chapter ended, Mr. Danner's decision to inject her with the drug doesn't make much sense at first.
As a scientist he was passionately intrigued by the idea. As a husband he was dubious. As a member of society he was terrified.
His fear of his wife & women in general makes it even more unlikely. He's horrified that he might have an invulnerable daughter, but so wants a son that he eventually caves to the idea. The way he goes about it is also out character, IMO.

His wife slapping him around is certainly different. For the age of this, I would have expected it to be the other way around. Makes more sense this way given the characters, though. Adds well to his reason for fearing women.

The growth of young Hugo was fairly well done for this sort of novel. I wouldn't call it realistic, but it made kind of a comic book sense. An iron cage for a crib upset the neighbors & the preacher. Only one fight in school, pretty miraculous. Picking up a 2 ton wagon, too. How society managed to ignore this was convenient, but actually made sense to me. People often believe what they want to.

Samson & Hercules are both mentioned. Neither of them came to a very good end. Samson was a judge & mighty warrior until he fell from grace by fraternizing with Delilah. Hercules did a lot of great things, but also had fits of madness. He also came to a painful end at the hands of a woman. (hide spoiler)]

[Jim]

Chapter 4: At 10, Hugo finds his strength.

(view spoiler)[ I had to roll with this. I was reading early, but some of the list he was reading at 10 was pretty advanced & then to suddenly start exercising his strength. It's a bit much. Still, it flows well from that point. I liked that he was hungrier than ever afterward. Hate to think what his toilet had to put up with, though. Thankfully Wylie left that detail out.

Mr. Danner faces his wife down, so he & Hugo can have The Talk among other things. I guess that's a little young for most now, but he did have a lot of animals around, so it's not much of a leap. Farm kids are exposed to sexual facts throughout their lives. It's still kind of rough applying them to parents. I thought this was well done.

The chapter ends hilariously as the scholarly professors encounter Hugo & his fort. Well, it's funny for me, but poor Hugo again feels alienated. It's a good touch.
(hide spoiler)]

[Jim]

Chapter 5 starts out with a description of Hugo:
Extremely dark of hair, of eyes and skin, moderately tall, and shaped with that compact, breath-taking symmetry that the male figure sometimes assumes, a brilliantly devised, aggressive head topping his broad shoulders, graceful, a man vehemently alive, a man with the promise of a young God. Hugo at eighteen. His emotions ran through his eyes like hot steel in a dark mould. People avoided those eyes; they contained a statement from which ordinary souls shrank.

His skin glowed and sweated into a shiny red-brown. His voice was deep and alluring. During twelve long and fierce years he had fought to know and control himself. Indian Creek had forgotten the terrible child.

Character descriptions change over the years. Earlier ones probably would have included the shape of head, jaw, & hairline, all of which were important in phrenology, but that was losing its hold by this time, I think. ERB & REH still used it a lot, though.

His first love affair is surprisingly well documented. I guess I think of those times as being more repressed, but Wylie does a great job of conveying how Hugo wears the poor girl out.

It's a short chapter & then he's off to college.

[Jim]

Chapter 6 is Hugo entering college. He quickly wows everyone with his prowess, especially as an athlete. It's probably a good thing he's "Scotch Presbyterian for twenty generations."

I found the rejoinder amusing, too.
"Well, when you get through here, you'll be full of Scotch and
emptied of the Presbyterianism."

Most of the descriptions of college life in this chapter & the next remind me of what I've seen in old movies. I can understand his urge to fit in, but the tone of the college that is clear in this & the following chapters puts my teeth on edge.

Chapter 7 is more college & taking the canon. It's bewildering to me why Wylie included the last. Hugo has to remain anonymous, so I'm not sure of the purpose of this. I guess to show how he's progressing socially. The drunken party certainly shows that, as well as Hugo's willingness to take responsibility for his actions.

The fight went as expected. I liked the touches of self-consciousness. They made sense. I was rather surprised at the ruthlessness with which he took the $50 from Izzie, though. That's a side I hadn't expected.

[Jim]

Chapter 8 is more about Hugo in college, trying to fit in. His hidden strength makes that impossible, though.
He wondered if his strength was really the asset he had dreamed it would be, and if, perhaps, other people were not different from him in every way, so that any close human contact was impossible to
him.

He puts up a good front & does well. Very little attention is given to him playing basketball & there is no mention of baseball, which I expected. Football seems to be Wylie's sport of choice.

Then Hugo finds out that college expenses were more than expected & then Mr. Danner lost the remaining money to a scam. So Hugo ...would be a working student in the year to come. He hated the idea. His fraternity had taken no members from that class of humble young men who rose at dawn and scrubbed floors and waited on tables to win the priceless gem of education.

I find this particularly a particularly odious attitude on the part of the fraternity because I lived through similar circumstances. Hugo handles it well enough & decides to go to the city to make his fortune & possibly find Bessie, the one girl he remembers fondly even though she rolled him.

The descriptions of the Coney Island sights were fun, even if some were a bit weird. I have trouble thinking of a 600 lb woman as a beauty. I suppose I'm just too provincial.

Hugo likes his soiled doves. He doesn't find Bessie, but Charlotte. She sure can eat a lot, but this is the second time he's met a hungry person. This book was published in 1930. The Great Depression didn't start until the fall of 1929, so I don't think that's a factor.

Charlotte is happy that Hugo sticks up for her, but I had to laugh at "Jeest, mister, I've been wishin' an' wishin' for the day when somebody would bruise his knuckles for me." And later he asks her to 'keep house' for him which she does in a gingham dress.

He finds work as a strong man act & is smart enough to get wages plus a percentage of the entry fees. He even cashes in on pamphlets. He's definitely growing up & taking the world as it is.

He befriends an artist & compares himself to him. He sees Mitchel's work as something worthwhile, but can't see how his strength is really any good.

There are some points made that are tough on modern sensibilities. "White" is used by Charlotte to mean good. In redneck land where I was raised, it was a common expression back in the 60s & occasionally into the 70s. That's mighty white of you. or ...called me everything but a white man. were typical. I haven't heard them in decades, though.

Women's rights hadn't taken off yet, either. Charlotte ...knew that womankind lived at the expense of mankind. Wow. Too much. She's a smart woman & a kind one. She does as well by Hugo as she possibly can & I thought it was pretty good.

The clash of societies is well done, too. It's ugly, but real.

[Oleksandr]

I finished it and the book is quite interesting if uneven. The beginning is great, with a lot of humor and satire like sentences already mentioned by Jum and e.g. this "The village is known for the speed of its gossip and the sloth of its intelligence."

Hugo's sexual life seemed a bit ahead of time for what I expect from a 1930s book, even if there are much more racey and earlier fiction. The middle of the book esp (view spoiler)[WW1 and after seemed sluggish, with maybe picking up steam with politics (hide spoiler)]. The ending wasn't expected by me and I liked it.

[Jim]

Oleksandr wrote: "I finished it and the book is quite interesting if uneven. ..."

It's grittier than I expected with the sex & some of Hugo's actions. Glad you liked it. Do you see the roots of Superman in it? Come to think of it, have you even seen any of the early Superman in your neck of the woods? George Reeves?

[Oleksandr]

Jim wrote: "Oleksandr wrote: "Do you see the roots of Superman in it? Come to think of it, have you even seen any of the early Superman in your neck of the woods? "

I see the roots, but I assume its more a zeitgeist, esp. bearing in mind that before comics Superman one of the creators had an unpublished story with the protagonist who is an 'evil superman'. By that time there was Fantomas (early supervillian), Conan, Fanthom, Zero... and an idea of 'man of tomorrow' (initially not extra-terrestrial but a future man) was present. in the Soviet Ukraine Сивий Капітан. Аргонавти Всесвіту was initially published in 1937 and reminiscent of Batman - a crime fighter (as a protector of exploited proletariat from bourgeoisie) with a supercar...

In the USSR there were no comics (a pity for I liked to draw as a kid/teen and I'd adored them as a source material) and Superman trilogy with Reeves I watched maybe in the mid-90s and by then there were 'cooler' movies like Matrix

[Jim]

If you'd seen any of the early Superman shows, I think you'd find the resemblance uncanny. Superman changed a lot in the 1960s or so. He couldn't fly at first, just jump. Very much the same powers as Hugo.

[Oleksandr]

Jim wrote: "If you'd seen any of the early Superman shows, I think you'd find the resemblance uncanny. Superman changed a lot in the 1960s or so. He couldn't fly at first, just jump. Very much the same powers ..."

Yes, I know what are you talking about. I've read Supergods: What Masked Vigilantes, Miraculous Mutants, and a Sun God from Smallville Can Teach Us About Being Human and had an online course on EdX "The Rise of Superheroes and Their Impact On Pop Culture" https://courses.edx.org/courses/cours... so I'm a little aware of the history :)

[Oleksandr]

Ok, here is my review https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

and here is the "The scientific explanation" for the source of Superman’s powers https://kryptonradio.com/2016/10/24/h... (see comic page scan)

[Jim]

Oleksandr wrote: "Yes, I know what are you talking about. I've read Supergods: What Masked Vigilantes, Miraculous Mutants, and a Sun God from Smallville Can Teach Us About Being Human and ..."

That looks interesting. Thanks. I guess this just hit me so hard because the old Superman shows were one of those I was weaned on. It never ceases to amaze how much outright theft went on in the comics or how little credit was given to some people.

[Ed]

I've started reading it. I like it. The early chapters go through his school years pretty quickly and with few incidents. I find that hard to believe. A guy with superhuman abilities would likely have trouble hiding that during the terrible teen years.

Jim, the name Abednego is certainly unusual, but I recognized it from the Bible story (book of Daniel). He was one of the guys thrown into a "fiery furnace". That story made a big impression on me as a child, so I've always remembered their three weird names.

[Jim]

The origin of Abednego makes sense & a kind of point. Thanks, Ed. I agree with you about the Hormone Hell years. He seemed to breeze through with very few issues.

[Ed]

I'm surprised by several references to men as "birds". In later slang, "bird" was always a woman.

"Hey, Nellie! Take this bird up and pace him for a lap. Make it fast."

Charlotte: "Do you think I'd two-time the first gent that ever worried about what I did in my spare moments? Why, if you brought home a few bucks to most of the birds I know, they wouldn't even ask how you earned it—they'd be so busy lookin' for another girl an' a shot of gin."

The Manager: "I'd like to have a good strong man, yes. The show needs one. But you're not the bird. You haven't got the beef. Go over and watch that damned German work."

I was also struck by the similarity of the names "Valentine Mitchel" and Heinlein's "Valentine Michael Smith". Probably just coincidence.

[Kateblue]

Oh, the names==probably not coincidence. If you've read Heinlein's character Jubal Harshaw, he's a guy that would probably sand off the serial numbers and use whatever--in order to entertain and make a buck-- which is probably Heinlein's attitude. I've heard it said that all his characters are just reflections of him (though I would think everybody's characters would be reflections of their authors) . . . it's been YEARS since I read that about him, so can't really discuss.

[Ed]

This book is better than I expected. I thought it would be only of historical interest, but I'm finding the story very good.

The trench warfare of WWI was well-described. The return to post-war America was even more interesting, with a pessimistic view of the society and people.

[Cheryl]

Chapter 8. Liking it very much. Loving that the women are individuals, each with their own strengths and vulnerabilities, navigating each their own best way in the men's world they're stuck in. Also loving the wit, as mentioned above. Not loving the cardboard male characters.

I don't like that Hugo is super smart at school though. What does being more athletic have to do with being good at reading and arithmetic? And if he is so smart, why is he so dumb on the streets? And indeed, why is he so brutal w/ Izzie? He's supposed to be the main character, but so far I have no handle on him.

[Cheryl]

Super strength is everywhere. too. Consider Paul Bunyan and other Tall Tale characters. Consider Beowulf. Consider Pippi Langstrømpe. I'm confused why Superman's creator's are being accused of copying Wylie, or if indeed that is the accusation being made. Please clarify.

[Jim]

Cheryl wrote: "Super strength is everywhere. too. Consider Paul Bunyan and other Tall Tale characters. Consider Beowulf. Consider Pippi Langstrømpe. I'm confused why Superman's creator's are being..."

I thought some of it was reminiscent of Pecos Bill or Paul Bunyan.

The super smarts & Superman go together. Later, the resemblance to the old Superman becomes even greater. Did you ever listen to any of the OTR programs or see the George Reeves TV show?

I'm glad you're liking the way the women are done. I thought they & the sex were pretty remarkable for the period, but maybe I don't know the period all that well & confuse it with the 50s.

[Cheryl]

And something about the way the introduction is written gives me the impression that she, at least, sees something of the philosophy of Ayn Rand in Wylie's book. I'm reading what I believe is this edition, found on openlibrary.org:

[Jim]

I think any similarity between this & Rand is pretty tenuous. I'm not a Rand scholar, but I've read half a dozen of her works over the years & I've fully read this before. I don't see it. How does she compare them?

[Cheryl]

She doesn't, directly. It's just the impression I get, in that a superman is necessarily a superior man and we peons should admire, emulate or serve him rather than be obstacles like McClaren.

In any case, her vague implication isn't actually supported by the text, unless a reader specifically desires to see it that way.

[Rosemarie]

Regarding Abednego: I remember the names of the three in the fiery furnace because my daughter was a big Beastie Boys fan, and one of their songs is Shadrach, Meschach and Abednego.
I have read 7 chapters so far, and it has been interesting so far. I was wondering if all that drinking would have an effect on his ability to control his strength.

[Cheryl]

Later in the book there are referenced characters that provoked a memory of the real life figures Sacco and Vanzetti. I'm not at all sure that recent history inspired Wylie, but it's possible.

Btw, in the edition I'm reading the copyright page tags the book with keywords "alienation" "loneliness" and "fathers and sons" as well as "muscle strength."

[Oleksandr]

Cheryl wrote: "She doesn't, directly. It's just the impression I get, in that a superman is necessarily a superior man and we peons should admire, emulate or serve him rather than be obstacles like McClaren."

To be honest, I haven't read Rand (just like a lot of social philosophers she is on my TBR list, which just like the horizon moves away when I try to reach it), but the original XIX century liberalism that become libertarian now is definitely an anti-fascist with its ubermensch idea, much further away that any communalist ideology.

[Cheryl]

I'm not following what you're saying, Oleksandr. Maybe if you attached the labels to characters or events in the book I could see what you mean.

Anyway, I'm done now, and looking forward to discussing the end with others who are done.

Good book that I never would have picked up on my own. Thank you Jim for persistently nominating it, and group for choosing it!

[Oleksandr]

Cheryl wrote: "I'm not following what you're saying, Oleksandr. Maybe if you attached the labels to characters or events in the book I could see what you mean."

I maybe misunderstood your comment about Rand and "a superman is necessarily a superior man and we peons should admire" which I assumed meant supermacist-like ideology.

I fully agree on the reference about Sacco and Vanzetti. Nice to see I'm not the only one, who know the names :)

[Jim]

Oleksandr wrote: "To be honest, I haven't read Rand (just like a lot of social philosophers she is on my TBR list, which just like the horizon moves away when I try to reach it), but the original XIX century liberalism that become libertarian now is definitely an anti-fascist with its ubermensch idea, much further away that any communalist ideology."

Rand didn't like having her philosophy conflated with libertarianism, although objectivism is difficult to tell apart. She was certainly anti-communist. Depending on how you read her, fascism is a possibility, although not in a racial way. The characters of her 2 best known novels ("Atlas Shrugged" & "The Fountainhead") were kind of supermen, but mentally & philosophically, not physically. You might glance at a summary of The Virtue of Selfishness: A New Concept of Egoism. (It's not a book worth reading, IMO. The first couple of chapters lay it all out, the rest is hammering it in.)

One of her pet peeves was society dragging its best & brightest down to the level of the mediocre. In "Atlas Shrugged" the world is destroyed by this, but the very best escape to their own Eden while the rest of the world collapses. In "The Fountainhead" an architect sees his work stolen & ruined. His beautiful building doesn't come out the way it should, so he blows it up. Society sees the injustice done to him & his work, so they let it slide.

IMO, her best works were her stance against the US not doing anything about the Russian invasion of Czechoslovakia & her address to West Point. You can find both on Archive.org as audio files, I think.

[Ed]

The ending was rather sudden. I wasn't expecting it. But it is as good an end as any.

It was a much less optimistic book than I expected, but I like that because I'm even less optimistic!

I'd forgotten Sacco and Vanzetti, but there were quite a few cases similar to that at the time. (I thought of the Rosenbergs, but that is of course later, after WWII.)

I agree with Cheryl that I likely never would have read this book without it being a group read, but I'm glad I did.

[Ed]

Now I'm tempted to read his book Generation of Vipers. Looks to be full of pessimistic complaints!

It is a waste of words here to berate Congress ... the men in our Senate and the men in our House of Representatives are, indeed the representatives of the people.... The withered emasculation of our democratic statesmanship is the withered emasculation of America. The witch-hunting savagery of pompous male sluts in our national halls is that quality of all the people.

Of course things have changed. Now we have women in there, too. Wonder what he would of thought about that. Oh, wait...

Today, while decent men struggle for seats in government with the hope of saving our Republic, mom makes a condition of their election the legalizing of Bingo. What will she want tomorrow when the world needs saving even more urgently?

Ahhh... decent men! Whatever happened to those?

[Jim]

I think Hugo's summation at the beginning of chapter 15 is pretty telling.

His life had been comprised of attempt and failure, of disappointment and misunderstanding; he was accustomed to witness the blunting of the edge of his hopes and the dulling of his desires when they were enacted.

...Sitting there, he realized that his naive faith in himself and the universe had foundered. The war was only another war that future generations would find romantic to contemplate and dull to study. He was only a species of genius who had missed his mark by a cosmic margin.

[Jim]

I'm glad to see the book so well received. I was surprised & tickled by it when I first read it. I thought there would be insights I'd missed. I didn't put a name to Sacco & Vanzetti, but thought they seemed familiar. Couldn't put my finger on it, though. That's the sort of thing that's tough impossible to google.

[Oleksandr]

Jim wrote: "Rand didn't like having her philosophy conflated with libertarianism, although objectivism is difficult to tell apart. "

Thanks for the info!

[Cheryl]

The thing about the ending is, how else could it have ended?
But we should give more ppl a chance to finish it before discussing that.

Another thing I'm thinking about is that the story doesn't much resemble the perception of the 'pulp' science fiction. I get the impression that Wylie wanted to be taken seriously compared to the rocketships or BEMs being popularized at the time. But then I google "best SF of the 1920s" and see that there were some pretty seriously philosophical sf books being written then, books that we still read today.

One source points out: "The 1920s were an important transition period in SF from the literary tradition of Wells to the Wild West-style action of what would become known as space opera." Burroughs published in the 10s, but "1926 with Amazing Stories, the first pulp magazine devoted completely to stories of science fiction" is also mentioned.

So, hmm....

https://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2014/11...