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message 1: by André (last edited Nov 04, 2019 11:13AM) (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments Pending corrections now start at #229
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

(Message updated the 4th November 2019)

Easy to do, even if you do not read French !

There are more than 400 corrections to be done in this thread. In order to make it easy, I propose the corrected version of the title, the link to the cover and/or description in French and, if necessary the link to combine with other editions.

Thank you in advance for your patience.


message 2: by Moloch (last edited Sep 17, 2019 06:43AM) (new)

Moloch | 2822 comments #2 done

I'm not sure that #1 is a French book (I mean a French edition): seems an English language edition that maybe kept the original title. I fixed the original title field though


message 3: by lethe (new)

lethe | 13731 comments Moloch wrote: "I'm not sure that #1 is a French book (I mean a French edition): seems an English language edition that maybe kept the original title."

Agreed.


message 4: by André (last edited Oct 11, 2019 07:15AM) (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments Done

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...

Mettre le titre aux normes :

Théorie de l'agir communicationnel Tome 2. Pour une critique de la raison fonctionnaliste

Utiliser la préxentation en français de l'éditeur :
https://www.fayard.fr/sciences-humain...

Supprimer le doublon :
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4...


message 5: by Moloch (last edited Sep 17, 2019 08:05AM) (new)

Moloch | 2822 comments #1 (12), 5-10
done


message 6: by lethe (new)

lethe | 13731 comments André, could you post the rules you gave in message #496 of the "delete this book" thread in message #1 of this thread? Nobody is going to look for the rules in the other thread.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I have a question about the French capitalization rules you mentioned. From another librarian, I learned that French capitalization rules are quite complicated, please see https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

So which should we follow?

Also, is it possible to make your requests in English? As I said in the Francophonie thread, librarians can copy/paste titles and descriptions with hyphenation even if they have an American/English keyboard, and even if they don't speak French, as long as the request is clear.

Thanks in advance :)


message 7: by lethe (new)

lethe | 13731 comments #15 done.


message 8: by André (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3...

Supprimer la majuscule dans le titre : lustre


message 9: by André (last edited Sep 19, 2019 10:08PM) (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4...

Modifier le titre : Les enténébrés


message 10: by André (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...

Dans le titre, supprimer la majuscule à élégance


message 11: by lethe (last edited Sep 17, 2019 10:51AM) (new)

lethe | 13731 comments #22 André wrote: "https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3...

Supprimer la majuscule dans le titre : lustre"


#28 André wrote: "https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...

Dans le titre, supprimer la majuscule à élégance"


Considering these and other, similar cases: please read my comment #14, in which I refer to conflicting capitalization rules here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

According to those rules, Lustre and Élégance should be capitalized.


message 12: by André (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments lethe wrote: "#22 André wrote: "https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3...

Supprimer la majuscule dans le titre : lustre"

#28 André wrote: "https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1......"


Lethe, thank you for those observations. This is correct that some normative rules exist but are not necessarly respected by authors and publishers. My point of view is that the most important is to respect the authors and publishers point of view, so to follow what appears on the title (not cover page) and on the publisher website. The reference publishers such as Gallimard, Seuil, Flammarion PUF have rather coherent and clean website and the most efficient and elegant method is to follow them.


message 13: by rivka, Librarian Moderator (new)

rivka | 42480 comments Mod
André wrote: "My point of view is that the most important is to respect the authors and publishers point of view, so to follow what appears on the title (not cover page) and on the publisher website."

But that is not general Goodreads policy. While we do agree that French (and other languages) have different capitalization rules than English, the standard rules for each language should be followed.


message 14: by André (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments Sorry Rivka, I do not understand your statement. Do you mean that English rules should be applied whatever the language ?


message 15: by rivka, Librarian Moderator (new)

rivka | 42480 comments Mod
André wrote: "Do you mean that English rules should be applied whatever the language?"

Certainly not. However, all French book titles should follow general French rules, regardless of the author's or publisher's choices.


message 16: by André (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments The problem with linguistic rules is to identify who defines them. The French culture, for this is quite complex with its mixture of conservatism and avant-gardism. If you take the institutional point of view, the rules are defined by the Académie française. You may find a summary of them here : http://www.academie-francaise.fr/ques..., in particular at point 7 :

"7. Majuscules dans les titres d’œuvres

Dans tous les titres d’œuvres, le premier terme au moins (ainsi bien sûr que les noms propres) prend la majuscule.

Si le titre commence par un article défini, le premier nom qui suit cet article ainsi que les adjectifs et adverbes le précédant éventuellement prennent la majuscule : Les Misérables, Les Très Riches Heures du duc de Berry, Le Petit Chaperon rouge, Le Vilain Petit Canard.

L’article défini en tête de l’œuvre ne prend la majuscule que s’il fait intrinsèquement partie du titre, et n’est pas contracté : l’Iliade ; Les Bienveillantes, mais un chapitre des Bienveillantes.

Si le titre ne débute pas par un article défini ou s’il consiste en une phrase conjuguée, seul le premier terme prend la majuscule (sauf s’il s’agit d’un adjectif : dans ce cas, le substantif suivant prend aussi la majuscule) : À la recherche du temps perdu, Terre des hommes, Un taxi mauve, Le train sifflera trois fois, Tristes Tropiques.

Si le titre est double ou s’il met en opposition ou en parallèle deux termes, on applique les règles précédemment citées aux deux parties du titre, mais si la deuxième partie est introduite par un article défini, celui-ci perd sa majuscule : Le Rouge et le Noir, Vendredi ou les Limbes du Pacifique."

However, the text of the Académie makes reference to the Lexique des règles typographiques en usage à l'Imprimerie nationale. You may find a copy of this book here : http://www.circaete.net/eric/Lexique%...

The issue of how to deal with the title of works is considered at pages 168-171.

As well sumarised by a specialised website (http://typographisme.net/post/Une-que...) , the basic principles are

- On reproduit exactement la dénomination choisie par l’auteur.
- On utilise l’italique.
- On met une capitale au moins au premier mot.

So, if Goodreads whishes the standard rules beeing respected, for French, the first thing to do would be to make easy the usage of italics. I do not think that this is the case.

There are various secondary rules detailled in the document. But, for our discussion, the basic rule is the respect of the author choice (and this is very related to the principle of the author's moral right, a principle more implemented in French culture than in the US or British ones). As the author choice is, in principle, respected by the publisher, the best is to follow what the publisher propose. Be sure that in France, the reference publishers know the rules.

Take the exemple of Gallimard, the most prestigious publsihing house. You will find in their catalogue Le Chien du jardinier by Lope de Vega, La Chienne de Naha by Caroline Lamarche, Le Chien de Baskerville by Arthur Conan Doyle, but also Le chien de Claude by Roald Dahl, Le chien de Solferino by Laurence Biberfeld, Le chien d'Ulysse by Salim Bachi.

Nobody will dare to challenge Gallimard and its authors and translators for those contradictions. And if someone does, he will look like an old school master. En littérature, la liberté d'abord !


message 17: by André (last edited Oct 11, 2019 07:16AM) (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments Done

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4...

Présentation de l'éditeur en français :

"Les études critiques sur la théorie critique fleurissent. Le propos de Martin Jay est autre: plus modeste, il est en un sens plus fondamental. Œuvre avant tout d'historien, «L'Imagination dialectique», outre qu'elle tend à retracer l'odyssée d'un groupe d'intellectuels de 1923 à 1950, constitue le préalable nécessaire de toute réflexion sur ce qu'il est convenu d'appeler "l'Ecole de Francfort".S'attachant à la période américaine, Martin Jay n'en met pas moins en valeur les deux moments clefs dans la genèse de la théorie critique: les origines marxistes de la théorie, du côté du jeune Lukàcs («Histoire et conscience de classe») et de Kart Korsch («Marxisme et philosophie»), la volonté d'articuler critique sociale et psychanalyse par la voie d'une critique de l'institution familiale, «Autorité et famille» (1936).De même qu'il distingue plusieurs périodes, Martin Jay distingue des tendances diverses, à propos notamment de l'analyse du fascisme. Au-delà de ces différences, une même attitude, un même projet unissent le petit groupe composant l'Institut de recherches sociales :– Contre la division actuelle du travail et la division des sciences qui en est issue, la pensée critique ne cesse de se déplacer pour creuser des galeries souterraines sous le sol de la société moderne.– Face à l'oppression sans limites de l'univers administré, comment sans céder à la résignation, au pathos de la désillusion, ou aux réconciliations mystificatrices, persévérer dans la recherche utopique de la liberté ?"


message 18: by André (last edited Oct 11, 2019 07:16AM) (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments Done

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4...

(The title in English is kept in this French translation).

Merci d'inclure la présentation en français :

Présentation de l'éditeur
Après la mise à sac de la mosquée par les fondamentalistes hindous, l'immense et bruissante ville de Calcutta se trouve plongée dans le silence, telle une conque dont seuls ceux qui en approcheraient l'oreille pourraient entendre le grondement. Dans cette langueur apparente alourdie de sourdes menaces, deux vieilles dames, amies de classe d'autrefois, ponctuent de leurs remarques, de leurs souvenirs et de leurs siestes les événements quitouchent leurs familles et la ville. Entre ombre et lumière, passé et futur, le sort de ces familles se joue de l'hiver à l'été, en un récit qui égraine les menus faits de la vie quotidienne comme autant de gouttelettes scandant l'approche de l'orage, petite musique déployant ses variations mélodiques et sentimentales. Il faut marier Bhaskar pour le détourner de la politique, sauver l'entreprise où travaille Shib, partir en voyage ou remonter le temps... Quoi qu'il arrive, les oiseaux, et la voix du muezzin, saluent un nouveau jour à vivre.


message 19: by André (last edited Sep 19, 2019 10:11PM) (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9...

Dans le titre,

- ajouter le sous-titre : 124 rêves

Ajouter comme second auteur : Roger Bastide (Préface)


message 20: by lethe (last edited Sep 20, 2019 07:56AM) (new)

lethe | 13731 comments [ETA: comment numbers no longer valid due to deletions]

#17 - Description added. Could you provide the correct ISBN? I get an error message.

#18 done.

#19 - The description concerns a different edition. Please select which part pertains to the edition on Goodreads.

#20 - Added the description, but which are the languages? French and German? Since no ISBN was added, it makes it difficult to check things.

#21 done.


message 21: by lethe (last edited Sep 18, 2019 10:10AM) (new)

lethe | 13731 comments #22 and #28 not done, see French capitalization rules discussed in comment #14 upthread: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C...


message 22: by lethe (last edited Sep 18, 2019 10:09AM) (new)

lethe | 13731 comments #23 done, and moved ISBNs / added ACE notes.

#24-27 done.


message 23: by André (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments lethe wrote: "#17 - Description added. Could you provide the correct ISBN? I get an error message.

i do not have the book with me at this moment but the ISBN seems correct (see https://www.amazon.fr/Techniques-lobs...



message 24: by lethe (new)

lethe | 13731 comments André wrote: "lethe wrote: "#17 - Description added. Could you provide the correct ISBN? I get an error message.

i do not have the book with me at this moment but the ISBN seems correct (see https://www.amazon...."


No, one digit was wrong (6 instead of 5). Have taken the correct ISBNs from Amazon, thanks.


message 25: by André (last edited Sep 18, 2019 10:17AM) (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments lethe wrote: "#

#19 - The description concerns a different edition. Please select which part pertains to the edition..."



You are right. I did not notice that the link is for a revised second edition while the first edition is in two volume (with one box, so a unique ISBN). But I think the overall presentation of the book remain valid and anyway better than the English one.


message 26: by André (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments lethe wrote: "#20."

The book was published in 1980 before implementation of ISBN in France. I did not find it in online catalogues. Languages are of course German and French.


message 27: by André (last edited Sep 18, 2019 10:41AM) (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments lethe wrote: "#22 and #28 not done, see French capitalization rules discussed in comment #14 upthread: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C..."

Have you seen my comment #34. The reference rule in France is the Lexique... by the Imprimerie nationale, not Wikipedia. And the basic principle in this document is clear : you have to respect the choice of the author and his/her publisher.

In the case of Le lustre see https://www.desfemmes.fr/litterature/...

Les Editions des femmes Antoinette Fourque is a highly professional and respected publishing house, with its headquarter and library Rue Jacobs in Paris, the historiacl street of Frenh publishers. Again, reference is there, not in Wikipedia.


Same comment for L'élégance du hérisson. Why should we challenge Gallimard in matters of "bon usage" ? http://www.gallimard.fr/Catalogue/GAL...


message 28: by lethe (new)

lethe | 13731 comments André wrote: "lethe wrote: "#

#19 - The description concerns a different edition. Please select which part pertains to the edition..."

You are right. I did not notice that the link is for a revised second edi..."


Because the edition is revised, I did not want to add a description that maybe contained references to parts that are not in the earlier edition.

I have now added the description.


message 29: by André (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments lethe wrote: "André wrote: "lethe wrote: "#17 - Description added. Could you provide the correct ISBN? I get an error message.

i do not have the book with me at this moment but the ISBN seems correct (see https..."
OK. Thanks.


message 30: by André (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments lethe wrote: "André wrote: "lethe wrote: "#

#19 - The description concerns a different edition. Please select which part pertains to the edition..."

You are right. I did not notice that the link is for a revis..."


Thanks


message 31: by lethe (last edited Sep 20, 2019 01:02AM) (new)

lethe | 13731 comments André wrote: "lethe wrote: "#22 and #28 not done, see French capitalization rules discussed in comment #14 upthread: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C..."

Have you seen my comment #34. The reference rule in France is the Lexique... by the Imprimerie nationale, not Wikipedia. And the basic principle in this document is clear : you have to respect the choice of the author and his/her publisher"


I was pointed to the French capitalization rules by both a Superlibrarian and a regular user [now librarian] (see the thread I linked to in comment #14 [now:] #6) who were taught these rules in school. Wikipedia did not make them up, I also looked at another site with the exact same rules. Both the Superlibrarian and the user mentioned that publishers often do not follow these rules.

Respecting the typographical choices of the author and/or their publisher would mean being obliged to put titles in all-caps or all in lower case (including the first letter of the title) in many instances. We don't do that either.

See also rivka's comment (Head Librarian and Goodreads staff member): https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/... [now:] https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...


message 32: by André (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments I think that this is really not understanding cultural rules of the French society. Again : the Académie française, the Imprimerie nationale and reference publishers are making rules, not school masters or Wikipedia or Goodreads. I appreciate your help but I am a bit amazed by the fact that your dispute on this while there are thousands of more important mistakes to be corrected.


message 33: by Emily (last edited Sep 18, 2019 11:25AM) (new)

Emily | 13538 comments André wrote: "the Académie française, the Imprimerie nationale and reference publishers are making rules, not school masters or Wikipedia or Goodreads."

Goodreads policy dictates what is on Goodreads. Not author's wishes or publisher conventions, period.

If you want a title to have an exception to general French language rules, then you are probably out of luck here. You can ask about a specific book, but we are not going to change it if the edit would be contrary to policy or the expertise of the head librarian or more experienced librarians.


message 34: by André (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments Emily wrote:

Goodreads policy dictates what is on Goodreads..."


I perfectly agreewith this basic principle.

However, Goodreads rule is to follow the specificities of individual languages. See here message #31 and #33 by Ritka, who is the moderato : "All French book titles should follow general French rules".

The problem is that French rules are complex, but that the basic reference principle, defined by the Académie française and manly the Imprimerie nationale is that, when quoting a book or a newspaper title, you have to respect the choice of the author or of the publisher.

So if Goodreads is coherent, it should accept the flexibility of this French rule for books in French. You may find some books without capital in the title or only with capitals, but this will be very rare. A friend of mine, who is a professional typograph and a novelist has published one book without any capital at all in the title. This is a liberty of transgression and French librarians have to respect this.

Emily, I do not know what is your competence in French language, but be sure that there are much more important mistakes in Goodreads with books in French that should be a priority for corrections if the database and the GR community wish to have some credibility in the country of the author of "Les Misérables" (with a capital as Victor Hugo has decided).


Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂  | 4696 comments André wrote: "Emily wrote:

Goodreads policy dictates what is on Goodreads..."

I perfectly agreewith this basic principle.

However, Goodreads rule is to follow the specificities of individual languages. See h..."


Hi André

Goodreads librarians are volunteers. We have very little influence on policy.

If you want to discuss with staff you can use the Contact Us link at the top of this group. If you want to discuss with other GR members there is a link to the new Help area at the top of this group as well. :)


message 36: by André (last edited Sep 23, 2019 05:44AM) (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments Done

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4...

Dans le titre, merci de mettre les accents sur éléphants

Utiliser la présentation en français de l'éditeur :
https://www.actes-sud.fr/catalogue/li...


message 37: by lethe (new)

lethe | 13731 comments André wrote: "I appreciate your help but I am a bit amazed by the fact that your dispute on this while there are thousands of more important mistakes to be corrected."

Well, I must say I am amazed that you make such a point of having a capital letter changed into a lower case letter in a title when there are thousands of more important mistakes to be corrected. Maybe we should focus on those edits instead.

(Also, I find it very hard to believe that publishers get to dictate what a language's capitalization rules are, and I wonder why those people alerting me to the French capitalization rules didn't seem to know about that.)


message 38: by André (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "André wrote: "Emily wrote:

Goodreads policy dictates what is on Goodreads..."

I perfectly agreewith this basic principle.

However, Goodreads rule is to follow the specificities of individual la..."


Hi Carol. Thank you for your comment. I now that GR librarians are volunteers as I am myself here. I do not think that the issue of how to write a title in French is a question of staff. This is a question of respecting the French "bon usage". I suppose you will recognise that a French speaking person, with a solid academic and institutional experience, is more qualified than an English speaking librarian without solid knowledge of French and of French cultural practices.


message 39: by André (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3...

Merci de respecter l'orthographe du titre tel que proposé par le traducteur et l'éditeur : La ville assiégée.

https://www.desfemmes.fr/litterature/...


message 40: by André (last edited Sep 23, 2019 05:45AM) (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments Done

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4...

Merci d'inclure la présentation en français :


Face à la complexité croissante des sociétés du capitalisme avancé, J. Habermas élabore une nouvelle figure de la théorie critique qui se définit dans l'affrontement, d'une part, avec le marxisme dogmatique, de l'autre, avec la théorie technocratique des systèmes. Est-ce que la contradiction fondamentale de la formation sociale capitaliste est toujours à l'œuvre sans changement, ou est-ce que la logique de la crise a changé ? Pour Habermas, on n'assiste pas tant à un dépassement de la crise économique qu'à son déplacement, à travers le système politique vers le système socioculturel. L'antagonisme des classes plutôt que d'être résolu n'est que temporairement refoulé ; aussi la crise économique ne peut-elle être amortie qu'en engendrant une série d'autres tendances à la crise, un véritable faisceau de crises : crise économique, crise de la rationalité, crise de légitimation, crise de motivation. De par l'insistance sur le déplacement de la crise et la mise en lumière des problèmes de légitimation du système social, une nouvelle question surgit : la reproduction de la vie sociale est-elle liée comme auparavant à la raison ? relève-t-elle encore d'une "discussion" qui consisterait à déterminer des intérêts universalisables et à fonder les normes en vérité ? Contre toute réduction de la légitimité à la légalité, contre l'empirisme, contre le décisionnisme, Habermas pose la possibilité de la constitution d'une pratique rationnelle, en recourant aux normes fondamentales du discours rationnel que nous supposons dans chaque décision, ouvrant ainsi la voie à une éthique communicationnelle. Aufklärer pour qui la raison est raison décidée, Habermas fait appel à la partialité pour la raison : "On a déjà accepté le point de vue de l'adversaire lorsqu'on renonce devant les difficultés de l'Aufklärung et qu'en formulant le projet d'une organisation rationnelle de la société on se réfugie dans l'actionnisme, autrement dit lorsqu'on choisit un point de départ décisionniste... La partialité pour la raison ne justifie pas plus le repli dans une orthodoxie chamarrée de marxisme qui ne peut conduire aujourd'hui, dans le meilleur des cas, qu'à l'établissement sans arguments de sous-cultures protégées et politiquement sans conséquence." La situation présente "ne découragerait pas la tentative critique pour soumettre les limites de la résistance du capitalisme avancé à des examens concrets, et cela ne paralyserait certes pas la résolution de reprendre le combat contre la stabilisation d'un système social pseudo-naturel qui s'effectuerait par-dessus la tête des citoyens."


message 41: by André (last edited Sep 26, 2019 01:38AM) (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments Done

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...

Merci d'inclure la présentation en français :
http://www.gallimard.fr/Catalogue/GAL...


message 42: by Emily (new)

Emily | 13538 comments I do not think that the issue of how to write a title in French is a question of staff.

To clarify: We are only telling you to contact staff if there is an edit that someone will not do, and you wish to appeal to a higher authority.


message 43: by lethe (last edited Sep 20, 2019 01:04AM) (new)

lethe | 13731 comments André, I could finally take a good look at the links you posted in comment #34 [now:] #16.

Both the Académie française (as quoted by you) and the Lexique des règles typographiques en usage à l'Imprimerie nationale (pages 168-171) say the exact same thing as the Wikipedia page and the Canadian website.

The Typographisme blog may say that in summary, the Lexique tells us to cite an author's work exactly, but that is not what is on pages 168-171.

Besides, the blog specifically talks about citing an author's work (i.e. in an article, book, paper, thesis, etc.). Hence also the call for italics. It is standard practice to use italics for book titles in citations.

Entries in a library catalogue or here on Goodreads, however, are not citations. Therefore, normal capitalization rules should be followed.


message 44: by André (last edited Sep 19, 2019 02:40PM) (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments Lethe,

Thank you for your comments.

I do not know on what principle you can decide that "library catalogue or here on Goodreads, however, are not citations".

It may be true in a sense. Buth then lets look on French rules of catalography. Please have a look on the following page on the website of the enssib (the national school for the sciences of information and librairies) :
https://www.enssib.fr/services-et-res...

The answer to our question is to be found in the AFNOR standard Z 044-050 :
"la norme Z 044-050 Catalogage des monographies - Texte imprimé- Rédaction de la description bibliographique.
Voici le contenu du paragraphe 1.1.5 Transcription (p.395) :
"1.1.5.1 Le titre propre est transcrit tel qu'il figure sur la page de titre ou son substitut. Toutefois, des modifications peuvent être faites dans l'emploi des majuscules et dans la ponctuation : l'emploi des majuscules est soumis à l'usage de la langue de la page de titre ; on doit éviter tout risque de confusion avec la ponctuation prescrite dans la zone"
Source : Normes de catalogage. Tome 1 Formation des bibliothécaires et documentalistes. Afnor éditions, 2011."

So the basic rule is clear : "Le titre propre est transcrit tel qu'il figure sur la page de titre ou son substitut". This is exactly what I was arguing.

The rule of using a capital for the first name in the title was existing for the manual catalography. But the Guide méthodologique du Sudoc (http://documentation.abes.fr/sudoc/re...) gives the interesting following rule :

"Pour les titres de monographies, la norme Z 044-050, 1.1.5.1. spécifie dans le cas d'un traitement manuel, il est conseillé de faire apparaître en majuscule l'initiale du mot servant au classement [...]Cette recommandation est inutile dans le cas de systèmes automatisés."

As Goodreads is a "système automatisé", the use of the capital in the first name is not useful.

As for the respect of the author fantasy and moral right in French catalogues, please have a look on the following case related Melvyn Poupaud book Quel est Mon noM ?

https://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/c...
https://www.amazon.fr/Quel-est-Mon-Me...
https://books.google.fr/books/about/Q...
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melvil_...

The Bibliothèque nationale de France, Amazon.fr, Google Books and Wikipedia have respected the author fantasy and moral right. Why should Goodreads not doing the same, when GR rules, as indicated by Rivka : " all French book titles should follow general French rules" ? As a matter of fact, Poupaud's book was correctly encoded in GR : https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...



I hope this close the discussion.



message 45: by lethe (last edited Sep 20, 2019 01:10AM) (new)

lethe | 13731 comments André wrote: "Lethe,

Thank you for your comments.

I do not know on what principle you can decide that "library catalogue or here on Goodreads, however, are not citations". "


Apparently you don't know what citations are. Citations are used in texts such as I mentioned: (academic) articles, books, papers, theses, etc.

André wrote: ""1.1.5.1 Le titre propre est transcrit tel qu'il figure sur la page de titre ou son substitut. Toutefois, des modifications peuvent être faites dans l'emploi des majuscules et dans la ponctuation : l'emploi des majuscules est soumis à l'usage de la langue de la page de titre ; on doit éviter tout risque de confusion avec la ponctuation prescrite dans la zone"
Source : Normes de catalogage. Tome 1 Formation des bibliothécaires et documentalistes. Afnor éditions, 2011."

So the basic rule is clear : "Le titre propre est transcrit tel qu'il figure sur la page de titre ou son substitut". This is exactly what I was arguing."


You forgot the next sentences: "Toutefois, des modifications peuvent être faites dans l'emploi des majuscules et dans la ponctuation : l'emploi des majuscules est soumis à l'usage de la langue de la page de titre".

"Modifications in capitalization may be made, subject to the use* of the language of the title page." I.e., according to the rules of the language used on the title page.
[*Google Translate said 'use', but I feel 'usage' may be better translated with 'usage' or 'custom'.]

André wrote: "As Goodreads is a "système automatisé", the use of the capital in the first name is not useful."

Is Goodreads an automated system? The fact that it is an online database does not make it an automated system in my view. Lots of titles are added manually.

André wrote: "As for the respect of the author fantasy and moral right in French catalogues, please have a look on the following case related Melvyn Poupaud book Quel est Mon noM ?"

Exceptions can be made in special cases such as the title mentioned (ultimately at the discretion of Goodreads staff). There are also authors who spell their name without capital letters for whom an exception was made: bell hooks springs to mind.

In the vast majority of cases, the use of capitals or lower case letters in a book title is merely a typographical/design decision and therefore does not affect how the title is added to the database.

André wrote: "I hope this close the discussion."

As far as I'm concerned, it is closed. I will follow the rules as outlined by the Académie française and the Lexique.


message 46: by André (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments lethe wrote: "André wrote: "As far as I'm concerned, it is closed. I will follow the rules as outlined by the Académie française and the Lexique."

So, it seems that the discussion is not closed.

To clarify my point of view

1. The norms defined by the Acadélie française are for authors and publishers when writing the title of their books

2. The norms defined by the Lexique of the Imprimerie nationale are, as you correctly identify, mainly for citations.

3. The norm for catalography is defined by the AFNOR. Basic norm is to use the title as written down in the title page of the book. As you indicate, the second sentence gives some flexibility, but the basic rule is to respect the title as written down in the title page.

I think that, for Goodreads librarians wishing to respect rules, priority should be given to the AFNOR norm, defined for them.

I have amended the message #1 of this thread to take account of the evolution of my point of view.

I suppose that you are the librarian who has taken care of most of the corrections I have suggested. Thank you for this. In order to facilitate the identifications of what remain to be done, I have deleted the messages related to solved cases.



message 47: by rivka, Librarian Moderator (new)

rivka | 42480 comments Mod
Please note that when you delete posts, it causes the thread to appear as "new" for all librarians who have been reading the thread (whether or not they have posted), and causes confusion regarding all the remaining posts from other people which refer to specific posts by number.

If you wish to mark posts or items as complete, striking them through causes far less confusion.


message 48: by André (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments rivka wrote: "Please note that when you delete posts, it causes the thread to appear as "new" for all librarians who have been reading the thread (whether or not they have posted), and causes confusion regarding..."

OK. Sorry for this. I will follow your recommendation.


message 49: by André (last edited Sep 23, 2019 05:46AM) (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments Done

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3...

This folder needs various corrections :

1. The exact title is "Oeuvres complètes. Psychanalyse. XIX. Nouvelle suite des leçons. Autres textes"

2. It is not correct to relate this book with the vol. 19 of the Spanish edition of Freud's work as the content is different. The man contentbof this book is the translation of Neue Folge Der Vorlesungen Zur Einführung In Die Psychoanalyse. So it woud be better to combine this French volume with https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4...

3. Rather than the misleading presentation in Spanish, thanks for using the publisher presentation in French : https://www.puf.com/content/%C5%92uvr...


message 50: by André (last edited Sep 25, 2019 02:57AM) (new)

André (alfarrabiste) | 1338 comments Done

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3...

Supprimer la majuscule dans romanesques

Inclure, en plus des titres contenus dans l'ouvrage, la présentation de l'éditeur : http://www.la-pleiade.fr/Catalogue/GA...


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