Outlander
discussion
Is anyone else disappointed?
Tytti wrote: "I still to this day don't know when my closest friends started having sex, and I am of a younger generation. I can make educated guesses, like after they started to spend nights with their boyfriends but we were often out of school by then in many cases. As I have mentioned, it's private matter. .."Well mine told me and I guess they did because they knew I had read a lot of books about sex and wanted information. I certainly did not set myself up to be the resident sex education expert in high school .
Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "I guess we are talking about different age groups. I'm talking 8-9 year olds. And I know that at least 1 of the girls I worked with will be pregnant by 16, just by the statistics. ..."My parents did the same thing. This goes back to me saying that a C is average. There are lots of great parents that are active and engaged. There are also a lot of parents who let their kids do whatever.
Some of the kids I worked with were smart and had wonderful vocabularies and reading skills. They could have easily read some of the trash that is out in the world today. Those are the kids I worry about. They didn't make it into my camp without having home troubles and they were very much left in limbo.
Brittain wrote: "I'm not saying that kids shouldn't read out of level books. I have just seen what happens when mature themes aren't discussed and I try to encourage discussion as much as possible. I also think that developmentally, some things need to be held off on so that there is more comprehension.Giving an 8th grader Faulkner is a good example. They can read it all day but not understand the full meaning of it or the consequences of things in the book. I think that is the worry I have with mature themed books/movies/tv shows. ..."
And I have repeatedly told you that we discussed books in my family. We discussed them while reading, at the dinner table, in the car, etc. I had read Falkner by the 8th grade and understood him just fine. I got more out of him later, but that did not diminish my enjoyment of him the first time. There are also layers of understanding with some books. I have read Pride and Prejudice over 20 times and each time I get a little something more out of that book. Life experiences have an impact on our comprehension and understanding of literature. I can understand issues such as childbirth much better now that I have had children than I did before I had children. That does not mean I needed to wait until I was a mother to read about motherhood.
Brittain wrote: "My parents did the same thing. This goes back to me saying that a C is average. There are lots of great parents that are active and engaged. There are also a lot of parents who let their kids do whatever.Some of the kids I worked with were smart and had wonderful vocabularies and reading skills. They could have easily read some of the trash that is out in the world today. Those are the kids I worry about. They didn't make it into my camp without having home troubles and they were very much left in limbo. ..."
So, I was smart (tested gifted), had a wonderful vocabulary and advanced reading skills. I read what you would consider trash. No home troubles. No teenage sex. No drugs. What you are describing is a parenting problem, not a reading problem.
gertt wrote: "I agree. Way back when I went to school, there was dress code for both boys and girls. If you didn't dress accordingly, you weren't sent home, your parents were called to bring you a change of clothes. Of course, in those days, our parents wouldn't blame the school for having a dress code, they would blame us for not abiding by it. Consequently, it was unusual for students to not dress as required...punished at school, punished at home. ..."Yet somehow college students manage to go to school with no dress code and learn how to dress once they enter the workforce? Go figure.
Mary wrote: "Well mine told me and I guess they did because they knew I had read a lot of books about sex and wanted information."I think I had my first "dose" of sex ed from watching the news about HIV. It had just started and people were dying. I was less than 10 and remember thinking that when I am an adult we all will have it, or something like that. In school we had all had the same sex ed so there was really no reason to ask. If we asked something it was usually about feelings and relationships and such.
One of the most popular books in blogs etc. in Finland at the moment is "Don't wipe tears without gloves" by a Swedish gay author who survived the 1980s. I haven't read it, found the tv series too sad for my liking, but I wonder... Would that be considered appropriate reading and for how old? Or would it be considered trashy because it features also casual gay sex?
Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "I'm not talking about stats. I'm talking about kids being left to their own devices with the parents going "Oh books are safe". That is a dangerous and ignorant way of parenting. ..."
"Do you think that child who sexually assaulted the girl at camp had anyone teach him about bodily autonomy? Or what rape was? Perhaps if his parents had educated him about sex, he might not have become a rapist. How old were YOU when you read your first sexually explicit book?"
This is a good question. And kind of the point to this whole discussion. You assume he did have someone that DIDN'T teach him or educated him. What the rest of us (maybe I shouldn't be speaking for everyone?) are saying is that we DON'T know! For all you know he had the best of parents and the best sex education classes in school.
Forgive me if this sounds naive but I don't believe a lack of education about sex would stop rapes from occurring. Education definitely could help, especially with knowing the laws and such.
What I've been trying to say is that children reading explicit content does not constitute any form of sexual education. And that doesn't mean that it "couldn't". There are things kids can learn but you have no clue what they're going to read unless you read and monitor everything before they do. Codose to you, if you have that kind of time, that's great and it works. Realistically speaking, it's not going to happen for most parents.
I'm just randomly commenting on points already brought out.
You can't compare the "natural" desire to have sexual relations, to having sex with a dog. Of course reading someone having sex with a dog didn't stimulate a natural desire to do so, because it's not natural. Reading sexually explicit/stimulating material will increase that natural desire.
Reading through these comments I'm getting the feeling that we're all arguing the same point LOL. My husband and I do that all the time. We end up arguing thinking we're disagreeing but we're actually arguing over the same thing but our thought process to get there is different so we don't recognize the point until after we've gone through this lol.
Mrsbooks wrote: "Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "I'm not talking about stats. I'm talking about kids being left to their own devices with the parents going "Oh books are safe". That is a dangerous and ignorant way o..."
I feel the same way. We are all agreeing and this is a bit ridiculous.
And by the way, the kid did come from a troubled home. I won't go into the details but it wasn't good. His schooling situation was worse.
Points we all agree on??Do we all agree that sexually explicit adult material does not constitute sexual education?
Do we all agree that sexually explicit adult material CAN give some education?
Do we all agree that sexually explicit adult material CAN also give the wrong education?
I'm thinking we all agree on these points.
Mrsbooks wrote: ""Do you think that child who sexually assaulted the girl at camp had anyone teach him about bodily autonomy? Or what rape was? Perhaps if his parents had educated him about sex, he might not have become a rapist. How old were YOU when you read your first sexually explicit book?"..."
An 8 year old child sexually assaulting another child at camp should have raised HUGE RED FLAGS. That child statistically was probably a victim of sexual molestation himself and was acting out his abuse. If anyone at that camp assumed he learned it from a book and did not call social services, then the adults at that camp were negligent.
Brittain wrote: "And by the way, the kid did come from a troubled home. I won't go into the details but it wasn't good. His schooling situation was worse. ..."And the most probable cause for his sexual assault was being a victim at home himself.
Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "And by the way, the kid did come from a troubled home. I won't go into the details but it wasn't good. His schooling situation was worse. ..."And the most probable cause for his ..."
Yeah, social services was basically on speed dial. I have already mentioned that the kids wouldn't be at the camp if they had good home lives.
Mrsbooks wrote: "Points we all agree on??"Do we all agree that sexually explicit adult material does not constitute sexual education?"
No, we do not agree on this. I can learn history from a textbook. I can also learn history from going to a museum, watching a historical drama on TV, going to visit a historical site, etc. We learn from many different sources. I learned about the Swamp Fox (Francis Marion from the Revolutionary War) by reading a book called Ceila. I learned a lot about Culloden from Outlander.
There are certainly some historical books that are biased, filled with errors and do not give accurate information though. By reading a wide variety of historical books, we are better able to spot the ones that are inaccurate.
Technical sex education rarely if ever discusses the emotions and relationship aspect of sexuality. Fiction does this very well.
Brittain wrote: "Yeah, social services was basically on speed dial. I have already mentioned that the kids wouldn't be at the camp if they had good home lives. ..."Yes, but correlation does not mean causation. I am sure this kid was coached into saying a "book made him do it." With a mother who probably got pregnant at 13, there is probably a history of sexual abuse in that family.
Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "Yeah, social services was basically on speed dial. I have already mentioned that the kids wouldn't be at the camp if they had good home lives. ..."Yes, but correlation does not m..."
Social services addressed that problem. Not me. I'm just relaying what I experienced.
Brittain wrote: "Social services addressed that problem. Not me. I'm just relaying what I experienced. ..."So you have no idea that a book or movie had ANY impact and from a psychological standpoint most likely did not have an impact.
Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "Social services addressed that problem. Not me. I'm just relaying what I experienced. ..."So you have no idea that a book or movie had ANY impact and from a psychological standpo..."
These kids were inner city kids. For the most part, the biggest problem was absentee parenting. It is just as likely that the kid saw what he saw on TV as it is that he was assaulted. 8 year olds are not good liars and their home lives are extensively monitored.
Brittain wrote: "These kids were inner city kids. For the most part, the biggest problem was absentee parenting. It is just as likely that the kid saw what he saw on TV as it is that he was assaulted. 8 year olds are not good liars and their home lives are extensively monitored...."No, it is not just as likely. If you work with inner city kids (and I have worked with at-risk kids as well), at that age sexual molestation (especially with a mother who was 13 when she got pregnant) is the most likely cause. I would bet money that the father was substantially older than that 13 year old girl. And 8 year olds can be and are coached and certainly victims of abuse are coached all of the time not to tell.
Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "These kids were inner city kids. For the most part, the biggest problem was absentee parenting. It is just as likely that the kid saw what he saw on TV as it is that he was assault..."This camp was run by professionals and it was handled appropriately.
Brittain wrote: "This camp was run by professionals and it was handled appropriately. ..."Not if they blamed it on the media.
Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "This camp was run by professionals and it was handled appropriately. ..."Not if they blamed it on the media."
The only answer isn't sexual assault.
Brittain wrote: "The only answer isn't sexual assault. ."But it is the most likely. Acting out sexually at a very young age is one of the main signs of sexual abuse. Just as in physical abuse, children are taught to lie to protect family members. A child with a broken arm caused by a parent will tell people he "fell." Any social worker who did not recognize this doesn't need to advocate for children.
gertt wrote: "You can't generalize. Every child (person) is different...levels of intelligence, maturity, interest, etc. There is no 'age' that children can read adult books...it depends on the child. Some children, read as early as age 3, others like myself are 6, and still others who develop more slowly might be 7, 8, or even older. The same with subject matter, some children are ready for adult books early on, but others aren't.
Whether someone reads Harry Potter at 6 or 12, or whether they read Jane Austin or Steven King, doesn't matter. The important thing is that children learn and have the opportunity to read. ..."
Amen Gertt. Parents should know what their children are reading so they can be a sounding board for delicate material. That is why I advocate being open about sex from a young age so that they feel comfortable asking questions later on.
Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "The only answer isn't sexual assault. ."But it is the most likely. Acting out sexually at a very young age is one of the main signs of sexual abuse. Just as in physical abuse, ..."
In this case, it was not sexual assault. It was investigated and handled. I did as much as I could for those kids and a lot of them are extremely exposed to the over sexualized parts of media. The songs they would sing and the TV shows they talked about were evidence of that. A few of them had more serious problems at home which were addressed. This kid was not one of them.
Mrsbooks wrote: "Points we all agree on??---
I'm thinking we all agree on these points."
But I am saying that not letting kids read adult books because they might have sexually explicit adult material is overprotecting because most books don't have that. Or then you read different books than I do. Or you have a different standards for that kind of material.
I was lucky I didn't have to worry about whether the books I read were "clean". If an author can write his/her novel without thinking about limits others put on him, the better the book will be.
Oh, I just remembered! I recently read a book by a pastor's son, a (former?) theology student and a Christian all his life, written when he was about 19, that also had mentions of drugs, prostitution and bootleg alcohol (because it was written and set in the 1920s). (Oh, and that's another example: Prohibition! Doesn't work. At all.) Would that be considered "clean"? I can't remember did it have any actual sex in it, even though I read it less than six months ago and liked it a lot. His later books have, so it's possible. It was also basically about a love triangle and the whole novel was about love, really. But yeah, I can't say if it would be considered sexually explicit because... well, I'm not obsessed with sex so I simply don't remember. I remember thinking that it would be perfect reading for 16-19-year-old students, simply because it had some freshness about it and it tells a lot about that time, but I wouldn't object younger ones reading it, either.
Brittain wrote: "In this case, it was not sexual assault. It was investigated and handled. I did as much as I could for those kids and a lot of them are extremely exposed to the over sexualized parts of media. The songs they would sing and the TV shows they talked about were evidence of that. A few of them had more serious problems at home which were addressed. This kid was not one of them. ..."You really have no clue if this child was sexually assaulted or not. It could have been when he was 3 years old and not even his mother knows what happened. To just dismiss it and blame it on the media is just wrong. If a child sexually assaults another child at the age of 8, that child has SERIOUS emotional and behavioral issues. Those issues did not magically spring up from seeing boobs on TV.
gertt wrote: "And, I was a hippy teen in the 60's...school dress code and all...imagine that. ..."I was a "hippie teen" in the 70s and I wore short shorts to school as well as tank tops. I was also a cheerleader and I can tell you that our cheerleading uniforms did NOT meet the length for a skirt in my high school. I went to high school in Florida where it was hot year round, so our dress code was a little more relaxed.
gertt wrote: "Outlander is probably the most sexually explicit book I've read. ..."Oh, I have definitely read more explicit than Outlander. The problem with most very explicit books is they are not very well written.
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Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "In this case, it was not sexual assault. It was investigated and handled. I did as much as I could for those kids and a lot of them are extremely exposed to the over sexualized par..."It was not dismissed as casually as you imply. And I'm not saying he saw something on TV once and was automatically influenced.
A lot of these kids grow up in situations where talking about sex, rape, drugs and prison are passe. They would regularly talk about how many parents and other family members they had locked up. They talked about watching stuff on Cinemax and Starz with their younger siblings. Some of the songs that they would sing that came from the radio were downright dirty and we had serious conversations about that with them. You know what the most common response was? "I didn't know it was wrong. My mom/dad/uncle/auntie/nana/papa speaks like that."
gertt wrote: "You can't generalize. Every child (person) is different...levels of intelligence, maturity, interest, etc. There is no 'age' that children can read adult books...it depends on the child"But my point is that usually the person him/herself knows when they can. Unless they have read for example King earlier and that has give them nightmares, I see no reason to forbid them reading something similar. Oh and the series was rated 12 or over. I don't think kids younger than that would even be that interested in reading the book (because of the subject matter) and older ones should be allowed to do their own decisions, and mistakes, too.
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gertt wrote: "Brittain wrote: "Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "In this case, it was not sexual assault. It was investigated and handled. I did as much as I could for those kids and a lot of them are extremely expo..."I'd cry on my drive home a lot. It was the most heart wrenching thing I have ever seen. They were so damaged by neglect and had no idea that how they were being treated was wrong. My goal throughout those three summers was to make a positive impact on their lives and show them that education could truly change their lives.
Brittain wrote: "A lot of these kids grow up in situations where talking about sex, rape, drugs and prison are passe. They would regularly talk about how many parents and other family members they had locked up. They talked about watching stuff on Cinemax and Starz with their younger siblings. Some of the songs that they would sing that came from the radio were downright dirty and we had serious conversations about that with them. You know what the most common response was? "I didn't know it was wrong. My mom/dad/uncle/auntie/nana/papa speaks like that." .."As I said before, any adult content they may have viewed on TV is the least of these kids' worries. To attribute this behavior to that (which is what you initially did) is naive.
Brittain wrote: "I'd cry on my drive home a lot. It was the most heart wrenching thing I have ever seen. They were so damaged by neglect and had no idea that how they were being treated was wrong. My goal throughout those three summers was to make a positive impact on their lives and show them that education could truly change their lives. ..."And education for these kids means teaching them about good touch/bad touch; about what constitutes healthy sexual relations. They have already been exposed and not in a positive way.
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Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "A lot of these kids grow up in situations where talking about sex, rape, drugs and prison are passe. They would regularly talk about how many parents and other family members they ..."I go back to my point of this child repeated an action that he absorbed from media that was not censored for him and was never shown otherwise that it was inappropriate until he got to us.
The church handled their sexual education. I was there to provide a stable camp environment, act as a counselor and generally be a border collie. My point about bad parenting applies. After the problem was addressed, we never had another issue with it. All it took was one talk with an authority figure about something he shouldn't have been exposed to as an 8 year old.
Brittain wrote: "I go back to my point of this child repeated an action that he absorbed from media that was not censored for him and was never shown otherwise that it was inappropriate until he got to us. ..."And I reiterate my point that there was a whole lot more going on here than anything he watched on TV.
Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "I go back to my point of this child repeated an action that he absorbed from media that was not censored for him and was never shown otherwise that it was inappropriate until he go..."No, you said he was sexually assaulted himself which did not actually happen. There is always something else going on in everybody's life but in this one particular incident, it was determined that the direct cause of the action was something he saw on tv.
Brittain wrote: "The church handled their sexual education. I was there to provide a stable camp environment, act as a counselor and generally be a border collie. My point about bad parenting applies. After the problem was addressed, we never had another issue with it. All it took was one talk with an authority figure about something he shouldn't have been exposed to as an 8 year old. ..."Oh dear God!!! The CHURCH handled their sex education??? Of course you did not have another issue with it because he got in TROUBLE!!!
Brittain wrote: "No, you said he was sexually assaulted himself which did not actually happen. There is always something else going on in everybody's life but in this one particular incident, it was determined that the direct cause of the action was something he saw on tv. ..."I said the most LIKELY scenario was he was abused himself. How exactly was it determined that he was not a victim of abuse? Children tend to protect their abusers, especially if they are relatives. They are frequently threatened with harm to themselves or another loved one if they tell. They ARE coached to give an answer authorities might believe. To just dismiss this situation as poor TV viewing habits constitutes negligence in my opinion.
Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "The church handled their sexual education. I was there to provide a stable camp environment, act as a counselor and generally be a border collie. My point about bad parenting appli..."Despite what everybody seems to thing these days, the church is fully capable of appropriately handling sexual education. Granted, these kids went through the program at a much younger age than most because of the charged environment they grew up in and in an attempt to prevent teen pregnancy. I find it hard to condemn an adult member of the church who was a child psychologist for addressing problems of hypersexuality in 8 year olds.
The church was also responsible for maintaining their education throughout the summer and providing meals when they would most likely have gone without. It was a shame that it had to be addressed in the first place.
Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "No, you said he was sexually assaulted himself which did not actually happen. There is always something else going on in everybody's life but in this one particular incident, it wa..."I do not know the nature of the investigation, only that it was handled by social services and it checked out. Apparently, before I was involved with the camp, there was another incident from a child that was otherwise very well behaved doing something inappropriate in the pool. I never heard all of the details but as I understand it, that child was a victim of abuse and was removed from his home situation. This is just to show that we follow proper procedures and know how to address these types of things.
Brittain wrote: "Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "The church handled their sexual education. I was there to provide a stable camp environment, act as a counselor and generally be a border collie. My point about bad pa..."What church?
Brittain wrote: "I do not know the nature of the investigation, only that it was handled by social services and it checked out. Apparently, before I was involved with the camp, there was another incident from a child that was otherwise very well behaved doing something inappropriate in the pool. I never heard all of the details but as I understand it, that child was a victim of abuse and was removed from his home situation. This is just to show that we follow proper procedures and know how to address these types of things. .."And overstaffed, underfunded social services NEVER miss abuse...right?
Mary wrote: What church?"No matter how I answer that question, you have already condemned my response by showing your disdain for the church. We have always been a liberal church and a big source of aid for local communities.
Brittain wrote: "No matter how I answer that question, you have already condemned my response by showing your disdain for the church. We have always been a liberal church and a big source of aid for local communities. .."What type of sex education curriculum did they use? Was it an abstinence based curriculum? I am ready to be open-minded.
Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "I do not know the nature of the investigation, only that it was handled by social services and it checked out. Apparently, before I was involved with the camp, there was another in..."Kids will always slip through the cracks. That's part of life. That's one thing I had to accept very early on with some of these kids. I couldn't save them all. In this child's case, everything checked out. That's all I can say about it. We had other cases where not everything was as simple and I am so glad that he wasn't one of those cases. I had my heart broken 80 times a day by those kids. Some didn't make it through the program. Those that did, I would like to think are better off for it.
Mary wrote: "gertt wrote: "I agree. Way back when I went to school, there was dress code for both boys and girls. If you didn't dress accordingly, you weren't sent home, your parents were called to bring you a ..."except that in the age of social media employers are checking facebook/twitter etc - and there can be issues if they see people presenting themselves in a way that does not conform to their workplace ideals. If you want to do research in undergrad you have to present yourself in a manner that indicates you can (i.e. not wearing pajamas to class/dressing appropriately) - I had a friend who was representing her employer at a job fair the other night she said about 90% of the college students who showed up didn't know how to dress appropriately, didn't know how to present themselves in a manner condusive to getting a job, couldn't write a resume
Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "No matter how I answer that question, you have already condemned my response by showing your disdain for the church. We have always been a liberal church and a big source of aid fo..."It is not abstinence based anymore. It may have been 15 to 20 years ago when the program was new but I believe they wised up pretty quickly. They had no way of avoiding the harmful environments at home so we tried to give them a way to understand that their home life was not the only option. We have seen great success rates with these kids staying in school, staying clean, and going to good universities.
Brittain wrote: "Kids will always slip through the cracks. That's part of life. That's one thing I had to accept very early on with some of these kids. I couldn't save them all. In this child's case, everything checked out. That's all I can say about it. We had other cases where not everything was as simple and I am so glad that he wasn't one of those cases. I had my heart broken 80 times a day by those kids. Some didn't make it through the program. Those that did, I would like to think are better off for it. .."I will commend you for working with these children. I have done the same and I know it is both rewarding and heartbreaking at the same time. HOWEVER, I still maintain that an 8 year old child that is aggressively acting out sexually has WAY MORE psychological problems than TV. To blame it on TV is to look for the easiest answer. He may have witnessed the sexual abuse of a sibling, his mother, or a host of other unsavory scenarios. This child needed more help than "don't do it again."
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Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "Kids will always slip through the cracks. That's part of life. That's one thing I had to accept very early on with some of these kids. I couldn't save them all. In this child's cas..."Thank goodness we had the resources for more than just "don't do it again". I believe part of the solution was to get him involved in community basketball programs so that he wouldn't spend as much time exposed to it among other things. He needed a positive male role model in his life and that coach was good about that.
All of them had troubled home lives. The most disturbing were the children that didn't speak English well enough to communicate and my Spanish was too textbook for them to understand. Those were the ones I worried about the most.
You know better than most about how working with underprivileged kids can open your eyes to how bad things can really be. They were so damaged and didn't even know it.
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I have lost a lot of details about the year I was 14 from a bad concussion so I couldn't tell you the book. I remember something about the girl being raped by her therapist? Not sure. It was being passed around at the girls camp I went to and I read it because I was out of reading material.
I'm not saying that kids shouldn't read out of level books. I have just seen what happens when mature themes aren't discussed and I try to encourage discussion as much as possible. I also think that developmentally, some things need to be held off on so that there is more comprehension.
Giving an 8th grader Faulkner is a good example. They can read it all day but not understand the full meaning of it or the consequences of things in the book. I think that is the worry I have with mature themed books/movies/tv shows.
Blanket bans are rarely, if ever, effective. I err on the side of caution when it comes to entertainment because I've seen a lot that troubles me about it.