Outlander
discussion
Is anyone else disappointed?
Becky ♡The Bookworm♡ wrote: "My point in bringing up the hobby lobby suit was simple. Both sides are going to push and until there is respect and some degree of tolerance on all sides, the issue of equal rights will get worse.Edit: To clarify, I believe the Hobby Lobby decision is riddled with problems. .."
IMO, we need to get health care out of the realm of the employer and have universal healthcare like all of the other civilized western nations.
Mary wrote: "I just think it is difficult to judge an entire genre when you have only read a few books in that genre."But we are looking at it from the different perspective. I can name several Finnish (female) authors but I can't really name any that write romance novels, maybe a couple who write historical fiction from the female perspective and with a romance plot. The whole genre in a way that was defined earlier hardly even exists. Almost all the books I come across in bookstores or are mentioned in blogs are about something else, there is no romance section in libraries, either. It's not that books about love don't exist but they won't fit in that genre definition very easily or at all, many don't have a happy ending or are not very happy in general. (It's the same with other European authors.) Then again, I am only now reading my first chick lit, too, but probably won't be reading another for a long time.
Tytti wrote: "Mary wrote: "I just think it is difficult to judge an entire genre when you have only read a few books in that genre."But we are looking at it from the different perspective. I can name several F..."
Good point.
This world is just going from bad to worse and sex and violence are being treated increasingly more cavalier. How anyone could ever think this is a good thing is beyond me.
Mrsbooks wrote: "This world is just going from bad to worse and sex and violence are being treated increasingly more cavalier. How anyone could ever think this is a good thing is beyond me."Why would you equate sex with violence? Sex is a natural part of the animal kingdom and needed to propagate the species. Violence is learned behavior and destructive. For all of the prudishness of the USA, we have the WORST statistics of the western world for both sex crimes and violence. In the USA, we are taught that sex is dirty and wonder why we have so many sex offenders who are messed up in the head. I had read books with sexually explicit material by the time I was 12-13. I did not run out and have sex with anyone. In fact, I was a virgin long after my friends has become sexually active. I find it ironic that we in the USA can say ANYTHING about violence when our biggest export is war.
gertt wrote: "Tytti wrote: "If a 12 year old is bored with children's books, there are plenty of adult books without sexual content to challenge their minds and relieve their boredom. ..."My mother let me read anything I could understand and I bless her everyday for it. I read about 300 books per year and have since I was very young. I once read every single biography and autobiography in our small town library one summer because that was all there was that I had not read yet. If the library had been filled with adult books with sexual content, I would have read them too. I read Erica Jong's Fear of Flying when I was about 15. Guess what??? I did not run out and try to have kinky sex!!! Why do people think that just because someone reads about something it will compel them to do it? Or think that children are too young to understand their bodies? I just don't get it.
Of course sex and violence are different! They are 2 separate things that are being considered more caviler with every year and the world keeps getting worse.I don't see the USA or our society as prudish. I don't see that we are taught sex is dirty AT ALL. Decades ago yes, but not now. Now it's celebrated in a way that makes it seem, I'm trying to find the right word here.... causal? Not important? Sex is a huge deal and should be treated with respect and it's not.
Mrsbooks wrote: "I don't see the USA or our society as prudish. I don't see that we are taught sex is dirty AT ALL. Decades ago yes, but not now. Now it's celebrated in a way that makes it seem, I'm trying to find the right word here.... causal? Not important? Sex is a huge deal and should be treated with respect and it's not. ..."The USA is incredibly prudish. Your and gertt's comments to Tytti demonstrate that. Sex is natural, but we treat it as some taboo that we cannot teach children about. If you look at history, poor families slept in the same bed with their children for hundreds of years. Wearing nightcloths is a relatively new phenomena historically speaking. Many civilizations wore few if any clothing at all. We as a nation are terrified of sex.
Mary wrote: "Mrsbooks wrote: "I don't see the USA or our society as prudish. I don't see that we are taught sex is dirty AT ALL. Decades ago yes, but not now. Now it's celebrated in a way that makes it seem, I'..."I see everything in your comment as being accurate but I reiterate, decades ago!
Can you really watch movies or tv today and think that as a nation we are terrified of sex? Can you really go to a college and think those kids are taught to be terrified of sex? Those days no longer exist. Sex is everywhere! It's plastered all over glossy magazines at the checkouts. No, I'm not saying porn magazines are at the check outs, but women are barely clothed and it's all designed to stimulate sexual desire. It's literally everywhere.
I do not feel sex is unnatural or taboo or something we should not teach our children about. BUT that doesn't mean sex shouldn't be treated with respect. Maybe if it was we would have less unwanted pregnancy's, less abortions and less sexually transmitted diseases!
Mrsbooks wrote: "I do not feel sex is unnatural or taboo or something we should not teach our children about. BUT that doesn't mean sex shouldn't be treated with respect. Maybe if it was we would have less unwanted pregnancy's, less abortions and less sexually transmitted diseases! ..."People have been having sex since humans first walked the earth. Abortion was actually both legal and fairly common in the 19th century. Abortions rates have been decreasing steadily over the years and are at their lowest rate since 1973 (in fact they have been cut in half). Sexually transmitted diseases are also on the decrease. The CDC has seen decreases in gonorrhea, chlamydia and syphilis. If there were a causal relationship between sex in the media and abortion and sexually transmitted diseases, then we would be seeing an increase. We are not. We treat sex with respect by educating our children about it so they have the knowledge and tools to make informed decisions.
Good Lord, I feel like you're taking everything I'm saying and putting a different meaning behind it. I feel like we're on a pendulum, with you on one end and "thinking" I'm on the other when I'm actually not.Perhaps, (I say that begrudgingly lol) I'm not explaining myself well.
Nevertheless, regardless how you're taking me, I still feel the world is crazy and that sex isn't being treated with respect.
And I'm out. Hubbie's home and now we can spend some time together :)
Mrsbooks wrote: "Nevertheless, regardless how you're taking me, I still feel the world is crazy and that sex isn't being treated with respect. ..."It isn't being treated with respect. We allow our children to learn about things we treat with respect. We don't hide it in the closet and pull it out when they are 16. If we refuse to let them learn about it when they are curious (and they get very curious way before they are ready to have sex) then they get the message that it is something taboo and don't come to their parents for information. When a parent says "your are too young for that," they are going to go out and find out on their own. I would much rather my children feel comfortable asking me questions than asking their friends who are just as clueless as they are. I would much rather have my children openly read adult content in front of me so that I can be available for any questions they might have rather than sneak off to do so. Because they WILL read about it.
gertt wrote: "I can't think of any reason or circumstance where I would want or need to be naked in a sauna with my children, grandchildren, or parents.I'm not a prude, but I think there is a time and place for everything and see no purpose in exposing children to sexual graphic books, movies, or experiences."
That's the difference. We don't think that nakedness equals sex. A young child doesn't care if he or she sees naked people or is him-/herself naked, they don't think it's something to be ashamed of. Though nobody actually asked if I wanted to go to a sauna with my parents, I think I was about six months old the first time... At one point children stop going to sauna with the opposite sex but that is up to them (though in public saunas it's when they are about seven). They have already been "exposed" to all kinds of bodies by then.
When I go to a public swimming hall I will see women of all ages, all naked. Why wouldn't I go with my mother or my grandmother, if she were alive? They washed me when I was a child and in the old times I would have washed them when they were dead, in a sauna. And frankly, if I am enjoying a private sauna on a summer night by a lake, I most certainly won't bother with a swimsuit every time I go swimming, I know the neighbours won't either. Some of the guys I have been in a sauna with are now husbands and fathers and we never had anything between us, some of the (now) wives were also there and some were already couples then. But we were all also adults. Besides, if girls would spend two hours in a sauna and the boys another two hours, that would be four hours with only a half of the people, and that would be boring.
Oh, and USA is very prudish, probably the most prudish Western country I can think of. But for some reason violence isn't thought of that badly. I remember watching the movie The American (with George Clooney) and it seems it was given an R-rated rating by MPAA for sexual scenes and strong nudity. It's about a contract killer, people are being killed. But that doesn't matter because it has nudity! I think it was rated roughly "PG-13" for violence in Finland. And that Nipplegate? Geez...
gertt wrote: "What I said was...I see no reason to take a naked sauna with my children or grandchildren, or for a 12 year old to read books with sexual content. Steering children toward other adult books is part of helping them make educated choices."Well we usually go to sauna always naked, that's the whole point. Only in some places you are required to wear a swimming suit, in most places it's forbidden. And when the kids are small they need parental supervision and help with washing, that's why you go there together. Finns have always been a clean nation, we have had the sauna probably since the stone age.
My friend thinks The Epyptian ("widely condemned as obscene" in 1949) is her favourite novel and she read it when she was 13. The Unknown soldier is often read in schools when kids are maybe 14-15 years old and it's a realistic account about the war. I think that is much worse than reading about a sex scene between two consenting adults. Then again, some boys already served when they were 13 or 14 years old...
I probably would "let" a 12-year-old read Outlander but I would tell her that it was too violent in my opinion in some parts and I didn't like it because of that. I wouldn't have a problem with anything else. But she would probably read it if she wanted to and I was probably watching much worse when I was her age, so I couldn't really say no (and if she borrowed it from the library I wouldn't know anyway). And I watched and read Gone with the Wind when I was 12, so... Besides, unless they were erotica, which I don't read anyway, I couldn't tell which books have "adult content", meaning sex. I register only disturbing violence.
gertt wrote: "What difference does it make whether it's due to the violence or the sex, an R rating is an R rating"I think there is a big difference! There is nothing wrong with sex and unless it's porn there is no reason a teenager couldn't see it. (And most teenagers have probably seen porn, too, nowadays, but...) And that movie wasn't even very violent, not a children's movie because of the subject matter but that's it.
For example the wedding episode felt very loving to me and, what is important, very equal and respecting. I often feel more uncomfortable if shows try to hide things and still try to make them look sexy. Those scenes looked very natural and romantic, I liked it. If a child already knows adults have sex and what happens in it (from the biology classes at the latest, I think we covered it in the 5th grade?), why not.
I even visited Tom of Finland exhibition some weeks ago. It mainly concentrated on his letters and life but there were some of his milder drawings, too, and of course a big picture of the stamps with his images. One of the visitors was a girl, maybe about 11 or 12, but I didn't see an age limit anywhere.
gertt wrote: "I have 5 grandsons ranging from 4 to 19 and I can not think of any reason to be naked in front of them, sauna or not, and I assure you not one of them would want me to be. .."That is because we have been culturally conditioned to believe it is wrong. If we were raised in a culture in which everyone went around with no clothes on, we would not think anything about it. 150 years ago, we would not have allowed our family members to see our ankles, yet there were still sexually transmitted diseases, abortion, teen pregnancies,etc. If your 12 year old granddaughter really, really wanted to read Outlander, would her mother let her? We have 12 year old girls who are already pregnant. Trying to "shield" them from sexual information does them no favors.
gertt wrote: "We are all products of our upbringing and who are any of us to judge others."This was my problem with the initial comments about the culture in Finland.
Becky's comment: "Wow. What a thing to be proud of."
Gertt's comment: "I can't think of any reason or circumstance where I would want or need to be naked in a sauna with my children, grandchildren, or parents.
I'm not a prude, but I think there is a time and place for everything and see no purpose in exposing children to sexual graphic books, movies, or experiences."
Do you understand how these comments can be construed as a negative judgment on a different culture? A culture that by every socio-economic and health indicator is doing better than our culture? Claims were made that exposing children to adult material or letting them see nude or scantily clad pictures will lead to dire things such as more sexually transmitted diseases, abortions, etc. However statistics do not bear that out. Since the inception of the internet which gave children access to more adult content than anytime in our history, the statistics for disease, abortion, teen pregnancy, etc. have all gone DOWN. Abortion rates have actually been cut in half. Those who are more likely to become a teen mother are the poor with no internet access or those who live in very religious states. Teenagers who have comprehensive sex education have less sexual partners and delay the onset of sexual relations. They are 50% less likely to become pregnant than teens who received abstinence-only education. More knowledge=better outcomes. We are not protecting our children by limiting their access to information about sex. In fact, we put them at greater risk.
gertt wrote: "No, I don't think she would. Not because she's trying to 'shield' her, but because there are some disturbing scenes...Jamie's rape for instance. Although, she wouldn't just tell her no, she would discuss her reasons with her. .."My oldest daughter wanted to read a certain book when she was about 13 (I don't recall what it was, but I think it was a Stephen King novel). I told her that the book contained some very disturbing images and briefly outlined what they consisted of. I told her that she was free to read the book if she wanted, but it would probably be better if she waited a few years if she felt they were too much for her to handle at that point in her life. She chose to wait. If she had felt she was mature enough to deal with the disturbing images I described, then I would have had no problem with her reading the book. If I had forbidden the book, there was a good likelihood that she could find it from one of her friends and read it anyway. I read that same daughter To Kill a Mockingbird when she was 6 years old. When we came to the part about the rape trial, she asked me what that meant. I told her and we went on with the book. From the age of 6 she knew what rape was and knew that her body was her own and no one was to touch it without her permission. My children began asking me questions about sex from the time they were 3 years old (how did that baby get in you?). I have always been completely honest with them and described in technical terms the answers to their questions until their eyes glazed over. At that point I knew they had all the information they wanted right then. They have always felt comfortable coming to me and asking questions (even my son) and I knew I was sending them out into the world armed with knowledge and information.
gertt wrote: "I realize Finland is more liberal about sex and whether that is better or worse I can't say....that's why I said we are all products of our upbringing, so who are we to judge others...."But if you look at the difference in statistics about sex between our countries, Finland is doing much better. Doesn't that even make you wonder perhaps if we might be doing something wrong?
My oldest daughter lives in the Netherlands. They actually have a very famous red light district in Amsterdam, so prostitution is legal there. Their abortion rate is less than 1/4 of ours and their teen pregnancy rate is nearly 1/10th of ours. They also have comprehensive sex education in all their schools. So does Switzerland and they have one of the lowest abortion rates in the world. I would bet if we looked at every country that was more open about sex, we would find the same statistics: that their children do much better than ours.
gertt wrote: "Sex education is taught in American schools, although, unlike Switzerland it's content is controlled by the state, not the country, so all American children don't receive the same education. Finland, Switzerland, are small countries, to compare them to America isn't really fair. The issues may be the same, but the population and diversity in this country makes it much more difficult to deal with these issues. Percentages are great, but when you are dealing with 316 million people and ideas, compared to 6 -9 million people, the answers are not as easy. ..."Most schools are woefully underfunded in the USA and if they want to get federal money for sex education, then they have to abide by federal rules. Until recently, receiving that money meant using an abstinence-based sex education curriculum. We have enough data on those programs to show that they do not work, are riddled with inaccuracies and downright lies and some studies even showed that no sex education was better than abstinence based sex education. Comprehensive sex education works, yet our attitudes towards sex in this country prevent them from being implemented especially in the conservative communities that actually need them the most. If you look at the larger countries in the world that have high teen pregnancy rates, STDs, etc., you will find one thing in common: a lack of comprehensive sex education. As I stated before, if there was a causal relationship between graphic sex in media and bad sexual and reproductive outcomes, then we would have seen a dramatic increase in the last 20-30 years and yet the opposite is true. The most conservative and sexually repressive communities are the ones with the highest rates of teen pregnancy and STDs. It is very difficult to change the values with which we were raised, but if we want to effect change sometimes we need to scrutinize ourselves in a mirror.
I agree that parents should have input into what their children read, especially when they are very young. However, as children begin to enter their pre-teen and teenage years, parents have less control over what their children are exposed to and we also have to give these budding teenagers credit for being autonomous beings. We build the open relationships with our kids before they reach this crucial age so that they continue to come to us for advice. I would just as soon stick a fork in my eye as read anime. Yet my son loved them. I understand your abhorrence of violence in books, but if that abhorrence was a yardstick for what you would allow your children to read, then they might not experience In Cold Blood or many other classic novels that contain violence. I don't believe in transferring MY individual reading particulars to my children. They have developed their own reading tastes because I allowed them to read what interested them and as a result they grew into prolific and lifelong readers.
gertt wrote: "My comment was...what difference does it make whether it's due to violence or sex, most people ignore the rating anyway. In other words the rating system is meaningless."It might be, but it does tell something about values. There are no warnings for nudity in Finland, and violence is rated higher than sex. Nobody gets shocked if they see a naked body on tv because we have not been told that we should be shocked. Most of the time the situation isn't even sexual. For us going to a sauna wearing something would make as much sense as taking a bath with our clothes on. I would even say that there is much less emphasis on sex in Finland than in USA. It's the Americans who are obsessed with it, like the Clinton affair proved, again...
And it's not just Finland. I would think the other Nordic countries have similar attitudes (though they don't have as strong a sauna culture as we do). Even Caitriona mentioned in an interview that Europeans are more comfortable in their bodies and she comes from Ireland which is one of the most religious countries in Europe. Also I once went to a sauna at a student party and there already was a Czech exhange student that I had never met before. He didn't seem to mind that there were women there, either. Besides, in Finland public saunas are generally not mixed but I have heard that in Central Europe they often are. We don't even have nude beaches (maybe because we have tens of thousands of lakes where people can swim anyway they like).
In some interview Ron Moore said that they still might show frontal nudity in the series but they didn't in the wedding episode because then people would have concentrated on that. For a Finn that sounds ludicrous. Adult people talking about that? Like they didn't know what is under his kilt? It's very unlikely that I will ever share my bed with Sam (unfortunately) so his private parts are none of my business, even if I happened to see them sometimes. I wouldn't be comfortable pointing them out because that's private, though I might admire his body otherwise, like some painting or a statue. He obviously has worked hard for it, so I don't think he would mind a lot. But staring at his... would be bad manners and we have learned not to do that when we were very young.
Also many Finnish high school exchange students mention that in USA they feel like they are back in the upper comprehensive school (= three years younger) and that they are treated like children, when in Finland they have been treated as almost adults. For example we didn't have to show our parents any test results, probably because some of my classmates were already living alone or with a friend because they wanted to study in our school and their family lived elsewhere. They/we were 16 at the time. When I was 14 we used to go to discos and stay up until closing time which was 1 or 2 am. There were no chaperones, either, just the normal security. We could have done all sorts of things but didn't, we knew our limits. (A couple of the places were in the middle of a forest, plenty of hiding places there.) So screening books for 12-year-olds sounds pretty overprotecting to me. They are only books, most of them quite harmless.
Oh and other things I am proud of: the first female members of parliament in the world were elected in Finland in 1907, and the maternity box given to every newborn with lots of clothes and other necessities. And what the international press decides to mention about the box? It includes condoms! Would you please grow up... And btw, Mary, I've understood that Finland spends less money per student than USA. :-)
Tytti wrote: "Oh and other things I am proud of: the first female members of parliament in the world were elected in Finland in 1907, and the maternity box given to every newborn with lots of clothes and other necessities. And what the international press decides to mention about the box? It includes condoms! Would you please grow up... And btw, Mary, I've understood that Finland spends less money per student than USA. :-) .."Finland pays their teachers more than we do here, but they are more efficient in use of their education dollars. The higher the teacher salary, the more likelihood that you attract quality teachers into the field. Finland also outscores the USA in reading, math and science scores. We have a disappointing habit of clinging to outmoded ideas because we are afraid of change.
Mary wrote: "We have a disappointing habit of clinging to outmoded ideas because we are afraid of change."When I went to school we had textbooks, exercise books in some subjects, and a blackboard, that was about it. In my class there were about 30 pupils and one teacher, and we had about 20-24-30 hours per week from the 1st grade to 9th. But we never really had any multiple choice tests, we had to actually count and write, and the older we got the longer the essay answers had to be. We had to know stuff so we could write about it. So it was pretty old-fashioned. They have computers and everything now but I'm not sure is it that much better.
Also Finnish is an easy language to learn (I learned to read in less than six months and I was reading adult books a year from that) but then again, Finnish teenagers are also reading books in English, after studying it for about six years, so...
Some great comments happening in this thread. I am definitely going to have to agree with Tytti and Mary on this one. North America has some really dichotomous positions on sexuality. Women have to walk a razor sharp line of acting coquettish, while not actually having sex. You are expected to wear makeup, be fashionable, be enticing and pleasing, but if you actually participate and enjoy sex, then all of a sudden you're a slut or a whore. That's why the "choice" to be sexy isn't really a choice; it's expected of us and then we're judged either way. That's not true choice and freedom.
gertt wrote: "Mary wrote: " I understand your abhorrence of violence in books, but ..."And where did I state that I transferred my dislike of violence to my children or didn't allow them to read books or watch..."
I did not say you did that gertt. I said "if" you did...You stated you believe parents should monitor their children's reading material and you said you did not see the need for sexually explicit material ir violence. So clarify.
I still wonder what is that "adult material" and what kind of books people read if they ran across it "too" often. Personally I have seen only one movie during the recent years that makes me vary to read the book that it is based on, even though it won the most prestigious literary prize in Finland and more awards in other countries. But I knew that even before seeing the movie and that was why I wanted to see at least that. (It was rated 16+, btw, less than the The American in the US, and the violence was disturbing.) I watched it with a friend and we were quite shocked and speechless afterwards, and that doesn't happen often. If it had been just fiction it probably wouldn't have been so bad but we knew that something like that did happen for real and it was very close that it didn't happen to our grandmothers/-parents (and actually for me, too). I wouldn't recommend the book to a young child, but then again, they probably study the era in the 8th grade history and I would guess many teenagers have already read the book because of the hype. Other than that, I don't think I have come across a book I wouldn't let a 12-year-old read (that most kids younger than that would even want to read in the first place). In any case, reading books is probably the safest way to explore your own feelings and learn where you own limits are, and also learn about other people and about the world.
(Ok, I don't like horror and have never read anything by King, but I believe it is/was pretty popular among 13-16-year-olds who do like it. I also heard of one who saw nightmares after reading some King's book, so it's not for the very sensitive, but that's it.)
Trisha wrote: "I was very excited about this book because it had good ratings, but I dislike it. I'm three quarters of the way through, and just reading in order to finish it. The story is shallow, and the entire..."I had the exact same reaction to it. I found the setup odd and Claire unlikable and uninteresting.
gertt wrote: "I think it's stated fairly clear...each person is entitled to read what they enjoy and children should be exposed to adult books and movies depending on their maturity, not their age. Some people never like graphic sex, violence, or horror...why is that a problem? ."I think we finally understand each other and agree .
gertt wrote: "children should be exposed to adult books and movies depending on their maturity, not their age. Some people never like graphic sex, violence, or horror...why is that a problem?"I was "exposed" to adult books after I learned how to read and started going to the library on my own (because of course it had an adult section, too). That was when I was about seven and in the first grade, especially on my first summer holiday when I went there all the time. I probably borrowed my first books from the adult section before I was even nine years old. (I still remember what they were.) I was also "exposed" to them at home, we have a bookcase full of adult books in the living room and of course I had every right to go through them. My mother even worked in a bookstore so she sometimes got books no one in the family read.
Still, I have managed to not read erotica or horror and not even a lot of graphic sex or violence in my whole life, even though I have been reading adult books since I was a child and was never told what to read or not to read. I have always read exactly what I have wanted to read. Then again, for me adult books are books that were not specifically written for children. I think it's a bit twisted to think that if you read adult books you automatically read erotica or books with a lot of violence. (Well I did read Bond novels when I was young but got bored because I noticed that they started to be quite formulaic and too unbelievable.) Even now my bookshelves are full of adult books I would have no problem of giving to a 10-12-year-old if s/he wanted to read them (but not many would like to).
Only once I remember my father saying to me that it might be better for me if I waited a couple of years. He was probably right because I was only about nine or ten and I am pretty sure I wouldn't have understood what the book was really about and just thought it was boring. After all it deals with politics, religion, power, war etc. and it is also almost 800 pages long, so some understanding of human nature, knowledge of history (and the Bible) and maybe even about geography would be recommended.
gertt wrote: "Chelsea wrote: "Women have to walk a razor sharp line of acting coquettish, while not actually having sex. You are expected to wear makeup, be fashionable, be enticing and pleasing, but if you actu..."It's great if you personally have never felt those pressures, but surely you can't argue that that's where the media focus is? And if you've ever spent any time around children and teenagers, they see those behaviours in the media and replicate them. I have some experience in teaching and have several friends that are practicing teachers and they all will tell you that this is the case.
You've said that you have grandchildren which are, I'm assuming, school age, so you might want to take notice of these things. I was fortunate and learned self-confidence early on. By grade 10 I had come to the conclusion that I wasn't interested in being "popular" and instead found friends that made me feel good about myself, but not all children learn this lesson that early.
And just look at the fact that there are still these slut-shaming school dress code policies. Schools are still telling girls that their presence and bodies are a distraction to boys. Girls are sent home for wearing leggings or tank tops because these are a "distraction" to the boys. So they're interrupting girls's learning experience with the excuse that their presence is interrupting boys' learning. That's sending the message that boys' education is more important than girls'.
Here are just a few articles from the last couple of months about this. This is very much a current issue and pretending it doesn't happen doesn't help change this climate we're living in:
http://www.bustle.com/articles/42289-... - In this school they actually used Pretty Woman clips to equate girls who wear leggings, jeggings, and tight jeans to prostitutes. This is the girls' school, where they are supposed to feel safe and learn, telling them they look like prostitutes. The only thing they're learning is low self-esteem.
http://www.nhregister.com/general-new... - This one is about an Honor student who has won national Academic awards who is now struggling because of constant disciplinary action over a dress code. The school's whole purpose is to educate children, yet they have dragged this honour student's education through the mud over some clothes.
http://time.com/3394549/dress-code-lo... - "Instead of teaching boys to keep their eyes on their books and not on their co-eds’ bodies, schools think it better to tell girls that they are dressing “inappropriately” or that their clothing is too “distracting.” In doing so, they make girls feel guilty for boys’ actions. The argument is not a far cry from telling sexual assault victims that they were “asking for it” by dressing a certain way. And it conditions boys to victim-blame women later in life."
Google #IAmMoreThanADistraction for more examples if you are interested. These kinds of engrained sexism are what our children are facing. They're internalizing these messages and it will shape their behaviours and attitudes as adults. Pretending there isn't a problem isn't going to make it magically go away.
EDIT:
And just for fun, here's an awesome video. Sexism, halloween style:
http://mic.com/articles/102226/these-...
Chelsea, I don't think those links work properly. And btw, I have heard some talk about those dress codes and well... nope, I don't understand the reasons given. I'm not saying that all Finnish boys know how to behave properly, because they don't, but I haven't heard that girls would be blamed for that.
Tytti wrote: "Only once I remember my father saying to me that it might be better for me if I waited a couple of years. He was probably right because I was only about nine or ten and I am pretty sure I wouldn't have understood what the book was really about and just thought it was boring. After all it deals with politics, religion, power, war etc. and it is also almost 800 pages long, so some understanding of human nature, knowledge of history (and the Bible) and maybe even about geography would be recommended. ..." My mother felt that if I was not ready for a book, I would get bored and put it down. She was right.
Tytti wrote: "Chelsea, I don't think those links work properly. And btw, I have heard some talk about those dress codes and well... nope, I don't understand the reasons given. I'm not saying that all Finnish boy..."Those sexist dress codes drive me CRAZY!! It sends the message that boys are mindless idiots who cannot control themselves. BS!
Tytti wrote: "Chelsea, I don't think those links work properly. And btw, I have heard some talk about those dress codes and well... nope, I don't understand the reasons given. I'm not saying that all Finnish boy..."I fixed them. Didn't realize that I didn't actually have to type out the html tags. Seems that Goodreads doesn't like that :)
EDIT:
Here's another one I just found. Did you know that Turkey tried to ban women from laughing in public this year?!:
http://mic.com/articles/101954/here-a...
I'm not even actively looking for these. These are just random links that are popping up on my Facebook and through random surfing. If sexism weren't an issue, these wouldn't be so easy to find.
Mary wrote: "My mother felt that if I was not ready for a book, I would get bored and put it down. She was right."I think I read every book I started at that age... I never felt the need to put any book down, either. Though Uncle Tom's Cabin felt boring but I had decided to write a book report about it (I was 12) so I read it. I can't remember much about it. But that book was a classic and probably my father's favourite book, so it wouldn't have been nice if I had been left with a bad impression just because of my age. (Probably happened to me with that Cabin.) And he didn't actually forbid me, just mentioned it when he saw me looking at it. I think I agreed, it still looks a bit scary simply because of its size and status. It's even taller than many other books.
Mary wrote: Those sexist dress codes drive me CRAZY!! It sends the message that boys are mindless idiots who cannot control themselves. BS!"But you're damned if you go the other way too it seems:
http://mic.com/articles/86235/this-to...
One of the best lessons we can teach our kids is to love themselves and to be themselves. Unfortunately for one 8-year-old, her school decided she was doing both of those things wrong.
Sunnie Kahle likes the things kids like: sports, sneakers, being with her friends. She also cuts her hair short. She identifies as a girl, but for administrators at Timberlake Christian School in Timberlake, Va., her appearance introduced too much confusion among her fellow students. Kahle, who lives with her grandparents, received a letter from the school saying that her gender expression "disturbed the classroom environment," and that if she did not alter her appearance and behavior to better align with her "God-ordained identity," she would not be welcomed back.
The letter included Bible verses to support its position, apparently completely glossing over everything Jesus ever said about love and acceptance.
Kahle's grandparents refused to fall in line with the school's demands and enrolled her in a public school, but Kahle remains distraught. She misses her friends and cries frequently. Still, her guardians believe that asking her to change everything about herself is a poor lesson, and too high a price to pay.
"How do you tell a child when she wants to wear pants, a shirt, and go out and play in the mud and so forth, how do you tell her, 'No, you can't, you've got to wear a pink bow in your hair, and you've got to let your hair grow out long,' how do you do that?" said her grandmother, Doris Thompson. "I can't do that."
I'm so glad that her grandparents are standing by her and telling her to be proud of who she is, but that poor girl should never have had to go through this in the first place.
Tytti wrote: "Mary wrote: "My mother felt that if I was not ready for a book, I would get bored and put it down. She was right."I think I read every book I started at that age... I never felt the need to put a..."
I was the same way Tytti. I was always an advanced reader. I started reading the Goosebumps books when I was in grade 1 or 2, long before my classmates. By grade 5, when the rest of my classmates were just getting into Goosebumps, I had already moved onto Stephen King novels. I'm not saying that every kid would be able to handle that content at that age, but I don't think children should be prohibited from exploring more adult themes at their own pace. My mom made sure that she was always aware of what I was reading and would answer any question I had honestly. Our house never sugarcoated things like sex or death. She's a nurse, so she always just laid the facts out for me and it gave me a very practical and pragmatic view of the world.
I was so annoyed when I read that they were reprinting "Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark" (books that I loved as a kid), but that they were neutering them by replacing all the original eerie artwork with bland new images. Part of what made the originals so iconic were the freaky as hell images that went along with the stories. Now I am so bummed that I don't still have my original copies. :(
Chelsea wrote: "I was the same way Tytti. I was always an advanced reader. I started reading the Goosebumps books when I was in grade 1 or 2, long before my classmates...."LOL!! There was no such thing as Goosebumps when I was a child. I read Edgar Allen Poe instead .
I haven't read everything. And I've barely skimmed the last page, just don't have the time to read right now.But I find it amusing because up to the point where I stopped reading there was actually barely anything that Mary (and I only say Mary because I can't remember for certain that some of the other comments weren't hers) and I didn't actually disagree on much.
The same with Gertt. I don't think Gertt disagrees with much said either. It's just you think we are. For some reason.
This is what I do disagree with though.
1. Parents should monitor their parents reading, watching material. Yes. I whole heartedly feel this is true. To what extent is up to each individual parent. But to say that you want your child to be able to say No on their own BECAUSE you'd rather you knew what they were doing rather than you telling them no and they go out and do it anyways, isn't very good parenting. There are ALWAYS things children should not do, that adults do. I think it's great that you feel children should have things explained to, I agree. I would hope my children would make the correct decision as well. But if they didn't? What if your 7 year old wants to listen to some rap songs that are all about beating up on his whore?
I do not think children should be making adult decisions. Children can make some decisions on their own as they age, as they grow mature. But parents should always be deeply involved with what they take into their minds and hearts.
2. Nudity does not equal sexual content. Just because some here are raised where they are more comfortable with group nudity, or see it on TV does not necessarily make children more comfortable or more knowledgeable about sex. I only know what I see with regards to nudity on television where I live and I can say that you rarely EVER see nudity that is not designed to stimulate someone sexually. So no, children should not be watching it.
3. Teaching children about sex as they age and mature regardless of culture does help them respect sex more. However it is ONE of the things that can help. As already pointed out, we are living in a time where sexual education is much more prominent. Just because we don't feel the school system is up to qualification doesn't mean parents don't take an active interest in this education with their children. BUT sex is still not treated with respect.
Some times the people who view sex with the least respect are the ones that have so much education about it.
3. yes, I do feel that what you take into your mind on a regular basis, can affect your actions. It only makes sense. What you feed your mind on affects your mind, which in turn affects how you feel about something, which in turn, affects your outward actions. There have actually been studies done on this. It doesn't matter the content, sexual, violence, etc.
____
With regards to make up and women and expectations on how one should dress, how we are judged differently then men. I believe this largely comes from Hollywood and the media. But if you as a woman, walk around with make up on and dressed up all the time, aren't you helping with the high expectations? I agree that they're there. I don't wear any make up like Gertt. Well, I shouldn't say any. I'll put some on a couple times a month. It certainly doesn't help with my self esteem when every time I wear it, all my co-workers say how nice I look that day LOL. I also only dress for myself and my husband. I don't think it's wrong to dress for a man. He dresses for me why shouldn't I repay the compliment? Either way, I don't bother with brand names or current styles UNLESS I like them. Actually I don't even know what half the brand names are. I really couldn't care.
There is definitely a pressure out there for women. But you can deflate that by much depending on who you allow to influence you in your life on a personal level.
Chelsea wrote: "http://www.nhregister.com/general-new... - This one is about an Honor student who has won national Academic awards who is now struggling because of constant disciplinary action over a dress code. The school's whole purpose is to educate children, yet they have dragged this honour student's education through the mud over some clothes.this article piqued my interest because I went to a school where school uniform was required - honestly, if the public school says that uniform (or some variation is required) and then the student doesn't comply why shouldn't they be subject to punative action? yeah, it sucks that she went from being a honor student at a school where she wore a uniform to not being one at a public school where she refused to wear the uniform which really wasn't bad - there was a wide range of stuff they could pick from and mostly color based - I'm sorry but I have little sympathy for her - most work palces have a variation on a dress code - for me, skirts knee length (at a minimum), shirts/dresses have to have sleeves etc - my last job, you could wear sleeveless dresses; my one before that was the military - you suck it up and deal with it - all of the kids at the school had to wear the uniform, its not like they are singling out the girls
Dee wrote: "Chelsea wrote: "http://www.nhregister.com/general-new... - This one is about an Honor student who has won national Academic awards who is now struggling because of constant disciplinary action over..."But don't you think that that's cutting off the leg to save the foot? Here is a student who clearly wants to learn and usually enjoys school, but has been punished for following a somewhat arbitrary and sexist set of rules. The whole point of schools is so that children can learn. This girl wants to do that. But rather than focusing on her learning, they're focused on her clothes. The school's priorities seem completely out of whack to me. And that's even if you put aside the often sexist rules built into a lot of those dress codes, and they're often incredibly insensitive to LGBT issues. If a transgender girl wants to wear a skirt, is that acceptable? My guess would be no...
I do love this though! I ran into this article a few months ago and this reminded me of it. It gives me hope that the other students rallied around this trans girl!
http://www.advocate.com/politics/tran...
like I said, i'm probably biased because every school I went to from elementary through high school and college because I went the senior military route - required me to wear uniforms - I never found any issue with it - we were provided with enough options to wear (pants/shorts/straight skirt/more full skirt/polo shirt/ short sleeve blouse/long sleeve blouse/ blazer/ sweater/ brown shoes/ black shoes)the point behind uniforms is that by unifying students through a similar clothing there is less focus on what people are wearing (outside distractions) and more focus on learning - and sometimes you just got to suck it up - there are always going to be rules we dislike - from the article, the dress code was pushed for by parents - not the school (right at the bottom)
the biggest issue i see you glossing over is that at her prior school they wore uniforms - and now all of a sudden at another school where she has to wear uniform she is engaged in social protest - that makes no sense to me - why was it good for her then, but not now - just because it is a different school doesn't change the scenario - the school has a uniform code - she can always move to another school (like she did once)
I don't know how to address your concerns about a trans* child (i've tried writing it several times, bute verything just sounds wrong in a bad way - that being said, i've worked with many people in the workplace (post military) and no one makes a big deal out of it and many of those places have dress codes as well
the article you linked re trans* student was also from rio de janerio, so not even in the US - which doesn't really futher your argument, since we are talking about schools in the US (are we not)
Mrsbooks wrote: "1. Parents should monitor their parents reading, watching material. Yes. I whole heartedly feel this is true. To what extent is up to each individual parent. But to say that you want your child to be able to say No on their own BECAUSE you'd rather you knew what they were doing rather than you telling them no and they go out and do it anyways, isn't very good parenting. ..."Yes Becky...we get that you think you are a great parent and we are all scum parents. The problem is for all of your beliefs, the statistics just don't bear fruit for you. Sorry.
Mary wrote: "gertt wrote: "Tytti wrote: "If a 12 year old is bored with children's books, there are plenty of adult books without sexual content to challenge their minds and relieve their boredom. ..."My moth..."
I don't either yet most criminals use it as a defense. Our country is messed up I believe. Our judicial system stinks and our government is crooked.
Mrsbooks wrote: "I haven't read everything. And I've barely skimmed the last page, just don't have the time to read right now.But I find it amusing because up to the point where I stopped reading there was actua..."
To me, it sounds like you are condemning women who wear make up and dress up. I hate this idea that make up is a male construct meant to "keep women down".
I went to a university where we were expected to dress up every day for class. That meant dresses and blouses and pearls for girls. It meant blazers and ties for guys. Not once did I think of another woman who wore heels or more make up than I that she was trying to show us all up.
Some women wear make up and heels or whatever to feel powerful. It isn't a judgement on their character.
Mrsbooks wrote: "This is what I do disagree with though.1. Parents should monitor their parents reading, watching material.---But to say that you want your child to be able to say No on their own BECAUSE you'd rather you knew what they were doing rather than you telling them no and they go out and do it anyways, isn't very good parenting."
But when it comes to (library) books, you have absolutely NO way of controlling them. You just have to trust them. And I still don't understand the demonizing of books. I know some books are really not for children but they are in a minority, in a very small minority, and you almost have to know what they are to find them. And when kids know they "shouldn't" be reading some book, they just read the best parts in the library. Older ones understand that if you just return them on time, parents will never hear that you had borrowed them in the first place.
2. Of course if you have been brought up like that, they won't show you nudity in tv. Granted I don't really watch that much Finnish tv but I don't think they often even try to "stimulate sexually". They are usually American shows that try to do that, and often sex scenes are not even necessary but they still have them. And if they are necessary to the story line, I'm not sure I could tell how old a child shouldn't see them. If the story is too much for their understanding, they wouldn't be watching it in the first place.
3. That is your opinion. We are not knowledgeable of sex because of tv, but because the society doesn't think there is anything wrong with sex in general or educating children when they are young enough to make a difference. Who gets to decide whether sex is treated with respect?
4. Well kids shouldn't be watching tv all the time anyway, or play computer games. But I would rather let kids see the wedding episode of Outlander in all its naked glory than many music videos and such that are everywhere. They may have (a little) more clothes on but their attitudes towards sex (and often women) are disgusting. There is nothing disgusting about those Outlander scenes, they are based (mostly) on love, they both act respectfully towards one another and, what makes them even more special, is that Claire is the more active party. So if a young girl (or boy) sees them and "learns" that they want something like that when they grow up, I would think they would be less likely to jump into bed with someone who treats them poorly.
Also, I feel there is a difference between American and Finnish societies when it comes to children. In Finland kids are trusted more to take care of their own homework, the teacher can leave the classroom and even teenagers continue studying etc. We all start walking (or taking a bus) to school when we are seven. I went to a couple of big camps when I was 11 and 14. Sure there were adults there, too, but there were also hundreds or thousands of children and teenagers. And we were in the woods, with knives. So we start learning to make decisions for ourselves quite early, and reading a wrong book is probably one of the safest mistakes one can make, as is seeing a non-violent sex scene from tv. It doesn't mean that that is all they will watch from now on. They might even find it uninteresting after a while (they usually are, at least for me).
Tytti wrote: "Mrsbooks wrote: "This is what I do disagree with though.1. Parents should monitor their parents reading, watching material.---But to say that you want your child to be able to say No on their own..."
Strangely enough, in America kids walk to school too. And teachers leave classrooms (even during exams) and trust their students. I went to camp with knives and woodburning tools and archery. We aren't automatons here. I think the safest choice as far as appropriate books go is to pick out books from the school library.
Brittain wrote: "I think the safest choice as far as appropriate books go is to pick out books from the school library."Why? We never had a school library, not nearly all schools do. Why should they if the public library is close by? Though during my first year in school the public library WAS in the middle of the school area. But kids go to the city library, too. Or hopefully they do. And again, the whole "appropriate" books discussion is something we simply don't have. I wouldn't know what books are appropriate, though I would say that most are.
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