Outlander
discussion
Is anyone else disappointed?
I grew up in a community (in Australia) where the community library was also the high school ibrary - the elemtary school had a library but it was extremely limited in the books that it had- so if you were like me, an advanced reader, you grew out of that library quickly and used the high school/community library
Chelsea wrote: "I was the same way Tytti. I was always an advanced reader. I started reading the Goosebumps books when I was in grade 1 or 2, long before my classmates."I had no idea what my friends were reading. I don't think my parents always knew what I was reading, either. If I needed information I just looked for it in the encyclopedia. And just watching the news or reading the newspaper showed enough death.
Besides, I had always been interested in history, so after reading about Egypt, Greece and Rome, at one point I started to get interested in WWII and world politics in general. So I was reading about Stalin's Purges when I was probably only about... little over 10 maybe, 12 at the latest? I wonder what would have been an "inappropriate" book for me at that time...
Dee wrote: "I grew up in a community (in Australia) where the community library was also the high school ibrary - the elemtary school had a library but it was extremely limited in the books that it had- so if ..."Hey, I was like that too. But if I, as a kid, walked up to the check out desk with something that may have inappropriate material in it, the librarian tactfully informed me of this.
There are certain books that need to be explained before they are read by children. I read To Kill A Mockingbird as a 5th grader but it was extensively discussed so that we could understand the context.
Brittain wrote: "In libraries here, a lot of the time the adult sections and children's sections are on separate floors or cordoned off in some way."Luckily we don't. The bookshelves are right next to each other and the only thing that separates them is that shelves for children are not as high. We don't have any required reading, either.
I have no idea how old a 7th grader is but 7th graders here are starting to read adult books for school reports, if not earlier like I did.
7th grade is usually about 12-13.I coach soccer for a bunch of 5th-8th graders. They keep begging me to teach them how to slide tackle. I refuse, because they are not developmentally ready for it. I take the same stance with books. A twelve year old shouldn't read In Cold Blood or super graphic things, at least not by themselves or without a serious discussion on it.
We have TV and movie ratings. We are delusional if we think that things that kids read in books don't affect them too. That's not to say that censorship is good and kids should be helicoptered over but there are things that they should grow into.
Brittain wrote: "7th grade is usually about 12-13."Well that's only a year younger. Here kids leave school (and sometimes home) after 9th grade, so it does make sense to let them choose their own reading two or three years earlier. In the 8th grade they often read a very realistic war novel. I've only seen a movie about those murders but I'm not sure it would have been worse I had already seen from documentaries etc. as a 12-year-old. I have been always interested in world affairs. Probably was familiar with Jack the Ripper, too.
Also slide tackling can physically injury others (or themselves). Reading a book doesn't. Also I meant ALL kids in Finland, everywhere, walk to school if they don't live far enough to qualify for the transportation.
Brittain wrote: "7th grade is usually about 12-13.I coach soccer for a bunch of 5th-8th graders. They keep begging me to teach them how to slide tackle. I refuse, because they are not developmentally ready for ..."
Yup
After coming off a site full of rabid fans of the book and tv series, it's amusingly refreshing to read all these reviews. I have read all the books and have enjoyed them, I'm just not super insane about it.
Brittain wrote: "Hey, I was like that too. But if I, as a kid, walked up to the check out desk with something that may have inappropriate material in it, the librarian tactfully informed me of this.There are certain books that need to be explained before they are read by children. I read To Kill A Mockingbird as a 5th grader but it was extensively discussed so that we could understand the context. ..."
When I was 11, I wanted to read Of Mice and Men. The librarian would not let me check it out. My mother went up to the librarian and told her to let me check out whatever I liked. If she did not let me, my mother would check the books out for me. I began reading when I was 3.5 years old. By the time I was 10, I had read everything in the children's section of the library. I started reading F. Scott Fitzgerald when I was 9 and Jane Austen around the same time. I am so glad my mother trusted my intellect enough not to squelch my reading. I believe in being prepared. I read dozens of books on childbirth and childcare before I had children. I read books on human sexuality years before I was in any kind of situation that required me to make a judgment call. Parents think they are protecting their children by shielding them from world issues. They are not. They are leaving them unprepared. If any of you think a 12-13 year old kid can be told "do not read that book" and NOT think they will then be so curious they will do anything in their power TO read that book, you are delusional.
@Brittain: Your 5th-8th grade soccer players may not be ready to slide tackle because of physical maturity issues, but they know what slide tackling is. Why anyone would automatically equate reading about something with actually doing that thing is beyond me. I was a gymnast. I read about and watched many skills being performed long before I was able to perform them myself. Should my mother have denied me the ability to watch the Olympics or read about double fulls or side flips because it naturally followed that I would be stupid enough to attempt something I was not ready for?
Children who are given information about sexuality before and as they are going through puberty make BETTER decisions about sex. They delay sexual relations vs. those who were sheltered. They are less likely to become teen mothers. They are less likely to get STDs. As a 50 year old woman (when I first read Outlander), I was disturbed by the rape. We SHOULD be disturbed by rape. That is the POINT. Too many times, we discount non-consensual sex as even counting as rape, or we blame the victim. A 12-13 year old is old enough to know about rape. 15% of rape victims are under age 12. 45% of rape victims are under age 17.
Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "Hey, I was like that too. But if I, as a kid, walked up to the check out desk with something that may have inappropriate material in it, the librarian tactfully informed me of this..."I don't think anyone in this thread is making an argument against your last paragraph at all. I very much agree with it and have been saying that from the beginning. But you seem to equate knowledge or information about sex with reading adult themed or possibly explicit content as a child. The two things are not the same thing.
Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "Hey, I was like that too. But if I, as a kid, walked up to the check out desk with something that may have inappropriate material in it, the librarian tactfully informed me of this..."I'm not saying deny all interactions with mature books. I'm saying have discussions about them so a child (because they are children) knows what is going on. Books are not babysitters.
I go back to the example of To Kill A Mockingbird. As a 10 year old, it was shocking to say the least when I read it and I didn't understand it on my own. However, I was lead through class discussions to be able to understand the context of the time and how much a game changer this book really is.
I used the example of the slide tackle for a reason. Yes, they are physically not ready for it yet but have you seen a kid that has been taught how to use that skill too early? They end up using it too much and hurting others as well. They aren't mature enough emotionally or mentally to understand what is appropriate and what isn't. Kids are not little adults and that isn't how they should be treated. Every time I teach them a new skill, I do it so that they understand the dangers of what they are doing, especially with my goalkeepers. That discussion pertains to books that are above grade levels too.
I encourage my players to watch European and American soccer because it is a cleaner game and they can understand it in it's purest form. It is about learning and explaining what is appropriate.
What is the harm in encouraging children to read age appropriate literature and having discussions with them about books that are beyond their grade level? I read actively all throughout my childhood and to this day. I don't think sex ed via a book is the right answer.
Mrsbooks wrote: "I don't think anyone in this thread is making an argument against your last paragraph at all. I very much agree with it and have been saying that from the beginning. But you seem to equate knowledge or information about sex with reading adult themed or possibly explicit content as a child. The two things are not the same thing. .."How is learning about masturbation in a sex education pamphlet different from reading about masturbation in a book? Babies masturbate, so at what age is it appropriate to discuss it with them? How is learning about vaginal, anal or oral sex in a class different than reading about it in a book? How is reading about birth control in a book going to harm a 12-13 year old reader?
I was a history major in undergraduate school. While I learned a lot about history from textbooks, I learned to LOVE history by reading historical fiction. The things I learned while reading a book I was engaged in rather than a dry textbook stayed with me much longer. I think the sex scenes between Claire and Jamie are very positive in their portrayal of sexual dynamics. They showed an egalitarian relationship between the two and sex as something very positive and good for their relationship.
Brittain wrote: "I go back to the example of To Kill A Mockingbird. As a 10 year old, it was shocking to say the least when I read it and I didn't understand it on my own. However, I was lead through class discussions to be able to understand the context of the time and how much a game changer this book really is...."I read it when I was 7 and had no problem understanding it.
What is the harm in encouraging children to read age appropriate literature and having discussions with them about books that are beyond their grade level? I read actively all throughout my childhood and to this day. I don't think sex ed via a book is the right answer.
What constitutes age appropriate literature? I was reading adult level books when I was 9 years old. I made a point a while back that allowing your children to choose their own books also allows you as a parent to know what they want to read and discuss it with them. Letting a child read about sex is not telling them to go out and engage in sex. Just as letting your youth soccer players watch or read about adult soccer players is not telling them they are ready for adult soccer skills.
There is absolutely NO CORRELATION between allowing older children to read adult content books and them becoming sexually promiscuous. In fact, the opposite it true. If parents want to keep their children ignorant out of some misplaced sense of morality, then they are free to do so.
Mary wrote: "Mrsbooks wrote: "I don't think anyone in this thread is making an argument against your last paragraph at all. I very much agree with it and have been saying that from the beginning. But you seem t...""Babies masturbate, so at what age is it appropriate to discuss it with them?"
"How is learning about vaginal, anal or oral sex in a class different than reading about it in a book??
When did someone say you shouldn't discuss masturbation with children? Again, we are discussing children reading adult content books. There is a very big distinction between those 2 things.
Learning about sexual intercourse through books that are not designed to teach children but rather to titillate or stimulate adults is NOT smart. Books like Outlander, should never be considered sexual education.
"If any of you think a 12-13 year old kid can be told "do not read that book" and NOT think they will then be so curious they will do anything in their power TO read that book, you are delusional."
There were plenty of books I wasn't allowed to read while growing up, just like movies or tv I couldn't watch. Was I curious? Of course I was! Most times I was told why I wasn't old enough. And most times I understood.
message 166:
by
Brittain *Needs a Nap and a Drink*
(last edited Oct 27, 2014 12:16PM)
(new)
-
rated it 2 stars
Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "I go back to the example of To Kill A Mockingbird. As a 10 year old, it was shocking to say the least when I read it and I didn't understand it on my own. However, I was lead throu..."Not every child is the same. Not every child is precocious enough to understand what is appropriate. How do I know? I had people I went to school with that read TKAM before it was required. They singled out my best friend in the hallways and badgered her with racial slurs. I work with kids over the summer and one of them sexually assaulted another camper. Know what his excuse was? "I saw it on tv and the girl liked it."
Not all books/movies/tv/whatever treat sex as an egalitarian thing. There is trashy literature with rape fantasies, sexual assault, stalking behavior etc.
In the tv show and in the book, Jamie makes an interesting point in Outlander. He thought, since the only way he had seen it happen was by animals, that people did the deed doggy style. Couldn't a similiar impression be ingrained on a child by too early exposure to something dangerous in its sexuality?
Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "I go back to the example of To Kill A Mockingbird. As a 10 year old, it was shocking to say the least when I read it and I didn't understand it on my own. However, I was lead throu..."Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "I go back to the example of To Kill A Mockingbird. As a 10 year old, it was shocking to say the least when I read it and I didn't understand it on my own. However, I was lead throu..."
."There is absolutely NO CORRELATION between allowing older children to read adult content books and them becoming sexually promiscuous. In fact, the opposite it true. If parents want to keep their children ignorant out of some misplaced sense of morality, then they are free to do so."
Again with this weird .... reading adult themed content = education thing. You can be firmly, fully and completely educated about sex and not read these kinds of things. They do NOT go hand in hand. They are not the same thing. Heck, there are adults out there that don't necessarily read explicit material and they are fully educated.
Reading sexually explicit content does not equal sexual education. Just because a child does not read adult themed material does not leave them ignorant!
Going back to the original question... I've picked up the book because of the TV show (I'd avoided it previously as I'm not a fan of never-ending series - been burned before). I've read through all the scenes covered by the first half-season and realized I don't feel like reading the rest even though the show is on hiatus until April. I just get more fun out of comparing the text with the visuals than by reading the text alone. It's just not a very well written book, IMO. I suppose it's pretty decent for a debut but it definitely needed better editing to get rid of the bloat, contrivances and contradictions. DG had some intriguing ideas but at this point in her writing career faltered in execution. I wonder if the series' popularity is based on the sequels because that (I'm told) are better researched and have more political intrigue.
The show looks good but I fear they'll take a hit by sticking too close to some stuff in the book (like all the attempted rapes and the infamous wife beating scene).
Mrsbooks wrote: "When did someone say you shouldn't discuss masturbation with children? Again, we are discussing children reading adult content books. There is a very big distinction between those 2 things.Learning about sexual intercourse through books that are not designed to teach children but rather to titillate or stimulate adults is NOT smart. Books like Outlander, should never be considered sexual education. ..."
OMG!!! Children that age are already masturbating. They are sexually stimulating themselves. Little boys play with themselves before they can even talk. Please explain to me WHY you believe sexually titillating material is going to damage your child? Are you teaching them that sexual desire is wrong??? You don't let your kids read these books in a vacuum. You DISCUSS the books with them. I read very quickly. If there was a book I was not sure my child was ready psychologically for, then I always read it first. If there was anything in that book I thought would disturb my child, I let them know what I thought they might find disturbing. If they felt they were old enough to handle it, then they read the book. They made the choice of what they were ready for with my guidance.
People who censor their children's reading material also tend to be the same type of people to censor their sex education material. Also, since pre-teen and teenage boys can get sexually stimulated from just about anything, how is showing them breasts in a sex education manual different from a description of breasts in a book?
Mrsbooks wrote: "Again with this weird .... reading adult themed content = education thing. You can be firmly, fully and completely educated about sex and not read these kinds of things. They do NOT go hand in hand. They are not the same thing. Heck, there are adults out there that don't necessarily read explicit material and they are fully educated...."Yes there are, but are you going to tell me that people who are most likely to censor their older children's books for sexual content are going to be extremely forthcoming with an intensive sex education curriculum???
Brittain wrote: "Not every child is the same. Not every child is precocious enough to understand what is appropriate. How do I know? I had people I went to school with that read TKAM before it was required. They singled out my best friend in the hallways and badgered her with racial slurs. I work with kids over the summer and one of them sexually assaulted another camper. Know what his excuse was? "I saw it on tv and the girl liked it."Not all books/movies/tv/whatever treat sex as an egalitarian thing. There is trashy literature with rape fantasies, sexual assault, stalking behavior etc.
In the tv show and in the book, Jamie makes an interesting point in Outlander. He thought, since the only way he had seen it happen was by animals, that people did the deed doggy style. Couldn't a similiar impression be ingrained on a child by too early exposure to something dangerous in its sexuality? .."
I think it is much more likely that any children making racial slurs at other children come from a racist home rather than TKAM made them do it. I think you are stretching it there.
Jamie was IGNORANT. That is kind of the point of that part of the story. If he had had sex education or read adult themed books, he would not have had to create his own woefully ignorant sex education.
Please show me any statistics that demonstrate that pre-teens and teens who read adult content books are more likely to be sexually promiscuous. I mean, that is the worry, right???
Brittain wrote: "As a 10 year old, it was shocking to say the least when I read it and I didn't understand it on my own."I haven't read the book, I've seen the movie as a child probably, so I know what it's about, roughly. But I would consider myself pretty ignorant had I not known at that age that there had been slavery and racial segregation etc. (and still was in South Africa). I was probably about that age when I realized that USA and Stalin had been allies. THAT was a "shock", because I had already heard of mass executions of Finns in the Soviet Union and all the rest. But in order to be surprised of that fact I already had to know quite a lot about both WWII and Cold War, because it did put a strange twist to all that talk about democracy.
Why do I believe sexually titillating material might damage my child? Because it might! You already said, you feel, and rightly so, that children can learn from reading adult material. So what makes you think they won't learn the wrong things?Someone already stated that children are not small adults. They're children. Their brains aren't even fully developed yet. Especially the area that allows them to "reason."
Why does not wanting to arouse a child to have sexual desire that they are not old enough to fulfill equal teaching them that their desire is wrong? - It doesn't. Again this is 2 different things.
I'm just going to go with that we all agree children shouldn't be having sex. If someone disagrees with that statement I'm just going to shut up and not bother this interesting debate lol. But why give fuel to the ever raging hormones preteens have when they are not, or should not be bringing those desires to fruition? It seems kinda mean among many other things. - Especially so when it is unnecessary. Unnecessary to their development and their education.
I thought this study, that shows how children can learn from watching TV about sex, shows exactly what I mean. I would imagine the same thing applies to reading material.
http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_bri...
Bottom line: If you rely on the media for sexual education, you're going to end up with one screwed up child.
From the link:
The results showed that heavy exposure to sexual content on television related strongly to teens’ initiation of intercourse or their progression to more advanced sexual activities (such as “making out” or oral sex) apart from intercourse in the following year. Youths who viewed the greatest amounts of sexual content were two times more likely than those who viewed the smallest amount to initiate sexual intercourse during the following year (see figure) or to progress to more-advanced levels of other sexual activity. In effect, youths who watched the most sexual content “acted older”: a 12-year-old at the highest levels of exposure behaved like a 14- or 15-year-old at the lowest levels.
The study also identified other factors that increased the likelihood that teens would initiate intercourse, including being older, having older friends, getting lower grades, engaging in rule-breaking such as skipping class, and sensationseeking.
Tytti wrote: "I haven't read the book, I've seen the movie as a child probably, so I know what it's about, roughly. But I would consider myself pretty ignorant had I not known at that age that there had been slavery and racial segregation etc. (and still was in South Africa). I was probably about that age when I realized that USA and Stalin had been allies. THAT was a "shock", because I had already heard of mass executions of Finns in the Soviet Union and all the rest. But in order to be surprised of that fact I already had to know quite a lot about both WWII and Cold War, because it did put a strange twist to all that talk about democracy. ..."Reading The Diary of Anne Frank disturbed me more than any sexual content I have EVER read. However, reading that book (about 3-4th grade) made me extremely interested in the Holocaust and in Judaism as well. I went on to read Chaim Potok, Leon Uris and a host of other writers of both the holocaust and the Jewish religion as a result. TKAM impacted me greatly as well. I saw the movie first and then read the book. I have been an advocate for racial equality ever since.
Mary wrote: "Mrsbooks wrote: "Again with this weird .... reading adult themed content = education thing. You can be firmly, fully and completely educated about sex and not read these kinds of things. They do NO..."Yes. Whole heartedly yes. I've seen this in my own life and most of my friends.
Mary wrote: "Jamie was IGNORANT. That is kind of the point of that part of the story."And again, his ignorance didn't really hurt anyone. Heh, I get reminded of Emilie and Ovila in that French Canadian tv show Les Filles de Caleb. There was this one "horse scene"... And Roy Dupuis never had a problem with taking his clothes of, either. I suppose he's more "European" in that regard.
Mrsbooks wrote: "Bottom line: If you rely on the media for sexual education, you're going to end up with one screwed up child. .."How in any of my posts did you come to the conclusion that I felt it was the media's job to educate children about sex?
People like to give anecdotal evidence on here, so I will as well. One of my neighbors was on the PTA board with me when our kids were in elementary and middle school together. She was THAT mom who wanted to get certain books out of the library (especially in middle school). Her oldest daughter was the same age as my youngest. Guess what? Her daughter got pregnant out of wedlock right out of high school. MY daughter is currently child-free getting her Masters degree. Another Mom used to call me up all of the time when I was PTA president to complain about the books in the library. HER daughter got pregnant in 9th grade.
When we are talking about sexually explicit books, they are actually a very safe place to experience sexuality BEFORE an older child is ready for sexual relations. Reading that material does NOT lead to promiscuity. 80% of evangelical teenagers have had premarital sex compared to the norm of 62%. Children of educated liberal parents are the demographic LEAST likely to engage in premarital sex. Children who are able to read about sexual relationships before they are ready to HAVE SEX are able to develop strategies on how to say no; what to do in circumstances that make them uncomfortable; understand what egalitarian relationships are, etc.
If an older child is laying in bed reading about sex, they are not going to suddenly jump out of bed, crawl out of the window and find someone to have sex with just because they are "titillated." To suggest that reading about sexual situations is going to make sex maniacs out of our children is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.
Mary wrote: "Reading The Diary of Anne Frank disturbed me more than any sexual content I have EVER read."I can't really remember did it disturb me... probably not. I had seen the movie just before and already knew the story before that. I guess because I had grown up hearing about deportations and forced labour camps in Siberia, so it wasn't really knew to me. And it wasn't like someone told me, I just learned about it from the media and discussions around me.
Mrsbooks wrote: "Yes. Whole heartedly yes. I've seen this in my own life and most of my friends. ..."
Please quote the section you are talking about. You can copy and paste it into the quote portion. Just hitting the reply button cuts off most of the post and I have no idea what you are responding to with this comment.
message 180:
by
Brittain *Needs a Nap and a Drink*
(last edited Oct 27, 2014 01:31PM)
(new)
-
rated it 2 stars
Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "Not every child is the same. Not every child is precocious enough to understand what is appropriate. How do I know? I had people I went to school with that read TKAM before it was ..."Yeah...there's this thing called "cause and effect". Before the book, no slurs. After the book, slurs! I'm not stupid.
Jamie was ignorant in the book and you know what, it was ok. Things turned out fine. But what about the kid at camp that assaults a girl because that is the only way he has seen it done?
I go back to my point of books are not babysitters. Parents are so willing to let their kids read whatever they want because they are books. I'm offended when I go into an R rated movie and I see a 7 year old there. I'm also offended when I see a child perusing the trashy novel section at a bookstore. Just because it is in book form, it does not make the content appropriate.
If your child is hell bent on reading sexual books, then you might need to discuss their choices in literature with them. Sexual education is important but would you trust someone else to teach your kid about sex?
I'm not talking about stats. I'm talking about kids being left to their own devices with the parents going "Oh books are safe". That is a dangerous and ignorant way of parenting.
Mary wrote: "When we are talking about sexually explicit books, they are actually a very safe place to experience sexuality BEFORE an older child is ready for sexual relations."This chapter is how I feel about it, too. I myself am a good example... Also giving children the right to read any books they want (within reason), doesn't mean that they actually will read them. I already mentioned earlier that I don't care for romance novels. That probably is because I like when romance is more hinted than spelled out.
Brittain wrote: "I'm also offended when I see a child perusing the trashy novel section at a bookstore."How are you going to stop your child from doing the same?
Tytti wrote: "Brittain wrote: "I'm also offended when I see a child perusing the trashy novel section at a bookstore."How are you going to stop your child from doing the same?"
My parents managed to keep me out of the adult section with the instructions "Those books aren't worth your time." They also managed to not have me playing with the guns in the house by telling me they were dangerous and taking me to gun safety classes. It's about being a parent and your kids trusting and respecting you. And you know, I've never gone on a shooting rampage and I made it through high school and college without getting pregnant and I'm getting my masters degree.
Brittain wrote: "My parents managed to keep me out of the adult section with the instructions "Those books aren't worth your time."And you are sure that child's parent hasn't done the same? You know, my parents didn't even have to tell me. I knew how to pick books from the adult section that weren't trashy. (Well, it would have been more difficult to find those "trashy" novels in the first place.)
message 185:
by
Brittain *Needs a Nap and a Drink*
(last edited Oct 27, 2014 01:54PM)
(new)
-
rated it 2 stars
Tytti wrote: "Brittain wrote: "My parents managed to keep me out of the adult section with the instructions "Those books aren't worth your time."And you are sure that child's parent hasn't done the same? You k..."
They didn't *have* to tell me either but thanks for the insult. They also didn't *have* to tell me not to shoot a gun in the city limits but they did.
Parents are responsible for their kids and they have to provide boundaries. I had boundaries that was "stay away from trashy books" just like I had boundaries that were "ugly words don't come from pretty mouths".
Brittain wrote: "They didn't *have* to tell me either but thanks for the insult."Well, I am still waiting for some way to keep kids out of that section if they actually are interested. Parents tell kids "don't do drugs" or "no sex before marriage" and still they keep doing that.
Tytti wrote: "Brittain wrote: "They didn't *have* to tell me either but thanks for the insult."Well, I am still waiting for some way to keep kids out of that section if they actually are interested."
Active parenting. Having consequences for disobedience. I listened to my parents and I have never gotten in trouble other than a few red cards.
Brittain wrote: "I'm not talking about stats. I'm talking about kids being left to their own devices with the parents going "Oh books are safe". That is a dangerous and ignorant way of parenting. ..."
What comment have I made that makes you think I advocate children being left to their own devices? A GOOD parent (which you seem to think I am not), lays the groundwork for their children to read about sex. A GOOD parent begins the sex education process when their children are at least pre-schoolers. Do you think that child who sexually assaulted the girl at camp had anyone teach him about bodily autonomy? Or what rape was? Perhaps if his parents had educated him about sex, he might not have become a rapist. How old were YOU when you read your first sexually explicit book?
Brittain wrote: "My parents managed to keep me out of the adult section with the instructions "Those books aren't worth your time." They also managed to not have me playing with the guns in the house by telling me they were dangerous and taking me to gun safety classes. It's about being a parent and your kids trusting and respecting you. And you know, I've never gone on a shooting rampage and I made it through high school and college without getting pregnant and I'm getting my masters degree. ..."Yet did you ever read a murder mystery where a gun was used to kill someone? Or a knife? Did reading that murder mystery make you want to go out and kill someone? Believe it or not, children are able to distinguish between reality and fantasy. Not many children who read Harry Potter thought they could fly on a broomstick or make polyjuice potions.
Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "I'm not talking about stats. I'm talking about kids being left to their own devices with the parents going "Oh books are safe". That is a dangerous and ignorant way of parenting. ..."
I'm not saying you are a horrible parent. I'm saying there are a lot of horrible parents out there. The kid at camp, his mother was maybe 22 with an 8 year old. My sex ed process started when I was in 5th grade and that was plenty early since I was not encountering sexual themes in my daily life.
I was about 14 when I read my first explicit book. Coincidentally, it was at camp where my parents were not monitoring what I was reading. My next one was probably when I was 18. I was fine. I read the classics at school instead.
Brittain wrote: "They didn't *have* to tell me either but thanks for the insult. They also didn't *have* to tell me not to shoot a gun in the city limits but they did. .."Pot, kettle, black Brittain. You have insulted me quite a bit on this thread by insinuating that letting one's children read mature books is bad parenting.
Brittain wrote: "Active parenting. Having consequences for disobedience. I listened to my parents and I have never gotten in trouble other than a few red cards."I don't have kids but I am pretty sure that that doesn't always work. Besides, I haven't gotten into trouble, either, but I was still allowed to read or watch pretty much whatever I wanted.
Brittain wrote: "Active parenting. Having consequences for disobedience. I listened to my parents and I have never gotten in trouble other than a few red cards. .."I was an extremely active parent. I set very strict limits on my children's behavior. They received logical consequences for misbehavior. I did not set strict limits on their minds. My kids were the ones who regularly got the "citizenship of the year" awards, honor roll, etc. They all graduated from a gifted high school with honors and graduated from college with honors. One has an advanced degree (with honors) and the other two are working toward one.
Brittain wrote: "I was about 14 when I read my first explicit book. Coincidentally, it was at camp where my parents were not monitoring what I was reading."Is GWTW sexually explicit? If it is, then I was 12. If it's not... Well The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo was pretty explicit, I read that when I was over 30. Between those books I can't remember reading a book that was sexually explicit. Maybe some were but that wasn't the reason I was reading them so I didn't pay much attention to the sex scenes, and so I have forgotten them.
message 195:
by
Brittain *Needs a Nap and a Drink*
(last edited Oct 27, 2014 02:16PM)
(new)
-
rated it 2 stars
Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "They didn't *have* to tell me either but thanks for the insult. They also didn't *have* to tell me not to shoot a gun in the city limits but they did. .."Pot, kettle, black Britt..."
Maybe I'm conservative. I also don't seeing 8 year olds playing grand theft auto. I've seen a lot go wrong with kids that don't have active parents. It's hard to work with kids who you know at least one of them will be in prison or dead by 18 because of absentee parents. I was basically a parent to 80 9 year olds over a summer and was shocked by the stuff they had been exposed to. Sort of like the cussing babies. It broke my heart to see a 9 year old boy saying he was going to "pop a cap in his ass and tap that ho".
I over compensate to protect. It is too easy for things to go wrong. Everybody on this website is a reader and, I think, intelligent enough to get what is fine and what isn't. But remember, a C is average and there are a lot of people that aren't equipped to make the same judgments.
I'm not saying ignorance is bliss or whatever. But it makes my skin crawl to think of the kids I work with reading the same stuff I was exposed to at camp.
Brittain wrote: "I was about 14 when I read my first explicit book. Coincidentally, it was at camp where my parents were not monitoring what I was reading. My next one was probably when I was 18. I was fine. I read the classics at school instead. .."You just kind of proved my point. Kids who are teens or pre-teens do get exposed to books without the knowledge of their parents. Parents who forbid those type of books have kids who are less likely to discuss those books with their kids. By allowing children to be open with the books they read at home, it is easier for parents to have those type discussions. Did you feel the need to run out and have sex after reading that sexually explicit book at age 14? By the time I was a sophomore in high school, I had read the Joy of Sex, the Kinsey Report, at least one book by Masters and Johnson as well as Lady Chatterley's Lover, Fear of Flying, Fanny Hill, etc. I was the ONLY one in my peer group who remained a virgin throughout high school. I was also the one my sexually experienced friends came to for sex education information. My reading taught me to respect my body and wait for a man who was mature enough to handle a relationship. I understood in high school that most of the boys I dated were NOT mature enough and neither was I. I remember when I went to junior prom...afterwards my date told me, "let's make love." I probably scarred him for life because I laughed and said, "Let's not. You no more love me than I love you."
message 197:
by
Brittain *Needs a Nap and a Drink*
(last edited Oct 27, 2014 02:20PM)
(new)
-
rated it 2 stars
Mary wrote: "Brittain wrote: "I was about 14 when I read my first explicit book. Coincidentally, it was at camp where my parents were not monitoring what I was reading. My next one was probably when I was 18. I..."I guess we are talking about different age groups. I'm talking 8-9 year olds. And I know that at least 1 of the girls I worked with will be pregnant by 16, just by the statistics. Their parents aren't there for them and let the TV do the babysitting.
I didn't really have the chance to read sexually explicit books because of the reading regime at my schools. I sort of got to them when I was ready and not before that.
We are agreeing about the concept, just the limitations are different.
Brittain wrote: "Maybe I'm conservative. I also don't seeing 8 year olds playing grand theft auto. I've seen a lot go wrong with kids that don't have active parents. It's hard to work with kids who you know at least one of them will be in prison or dead by 18 because of absentee parents. I was basically a parent to 80 9 year olds over a summer and was shocked by the stuff they had been exposed to. Sort of like the cussing babies. It broke my heart to see a 9 year old boy saying he was going to "pop a cap in his ass and tap that ho".I over compensate to protect. It is too easy for things to go wrong. Everybody on this website is a reader and, I think, intelligent enough to get what is fine and what isn't. But remember, a C is average and there are a lot of people that aren't equipped to make the same judgments.
I'm not saying ignorance is bliss or whatever. But it makes my skin crawl to think of the kids I work with reading the same stuff I was exposed to at camp. .."
Yet you assume that parents who let their children read out of level books are somehow absent parents; that they do not lay the foundation for their kids to read books above their grade level. Parents who don't monitor their children at all are very different from parents who communicate with them all of the time. What book were you exposed to at camp that made your skin crawl? I actually read a scene about a woman having sex with a dog while I was in my teens. It did make my skin crawl. It did not however make me want to go out and have sex with a dog. My parents taught me empathy. My parents taught me about justice. My parents gave me a very strong sense of myself as well as a strong sense of responsibility. I did the same with my children. If parents do not instill those types of values in their children, the reading material they choose is the least of their problems. In fact, parents who are absent parents are less likely to have children who are engaged readers.
Mary wrote: "I was the ONLY one in my peer group who remained a virgin throughout high school. I was also the one my sexually experienced friends came to for sex education information."I still to this day don't know when my closest friends started having sex, and I am of a younger generation. I can make educated guesses, like after they started to spend nights with their boyfriends but we were often out of school by then in many cases. As I have mentioned, it's private matter.
Brittain wrote: "I guess we are talking about different age groups. I'm talking 8-9 year olds. And I know that at least 1 of the girls I worked with will be pregnant by 16, just by the statistics. Their parents aren't there for them and let the TV do the babysitting.I didn't really have the chance to read sexually explicit books because of the reading regime at my schools. I sort of got to them when I was ready and not before that.
We are agreeing about the concept, just the limitations are different. ..."
Most 8-9 year olds are not strong enough readers to READ sexually explicit books. They do not even have the vocabulary to understand them, especially if they are from a disadvantaged home. Some 12 year olds are not strong enough readers. If a 12-13 year old is a strong reader, then they probably have the background knowledge to understand a mature book. We discussed books in my household. I started reading chapter books to my kids way before they could read themselves. We read every, single night. If they had questions, I was right there to answer them. I went with them to the bookstore and to the library. We have a very large home library. They knew I had read every book in our home library, so they always asked me what a book was about before they chose. As I stated earlier, if I thought a book might disturb them, then I would tell them that and tell them why. If they thought they were old enough to handle it, then I let them read it with the promise that we discussed it afterward.
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
Dragonfly in Amber (other topics)
Suddenly a Bride (other topics)
Playing for Keeps (other topics)
Outlander (other topics)
Books mentioned in this topic
Dragonfly in Amber (other topics)Dragonfly in Amber (other topics)
Suddenly a Bride (other topics)
Playing for Keeps (other topics)
Outlander (other topics)
Why? We never had a school library, not nearly all schools do. Why should t..."
In libraries here, a lot of the time the adult sections and children's sections are on separate floors or cordoned off in some way.
And I would say that there are definitely books that you should reserve for children for when they are older and that is a judgement that as a parent, you should be comfortable making. Kids don't know any better. A child does not know what is best for them, simply because they don't have that experience.
I wouldn't let a kid read Outlander, more for the fact that rape is so easily accepted in it. Do you think that is appropriate for a 7th grader? I guess I was blessed in many ways by my school with extensive required reading. 3 books a month, at least 2 off of an approved reading list. I never felt sheltered or denied anything. It's like dieting. It's not about denying the books, it is about making judgement calls.