Sword & Sorcery: "An earthier sort of fantasy" discussion
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Orcs
Skyrim had a HUGE hand in me creating Grimluk and writing A Demon in the Desert. The Orsimer are awesome. The Nords are definitely the "idealized barbarians," while the Orsimer are still getting over being seen as a feral beast race for god knows how long. Definitely more to them than green human.
Scott wrote: "Greg wrote: Trying to kill a full blood orc is like trying to kill a A Cyberdyne Systems series T-800 Model 101 Terminator, which is why the half-orcs in this world became so crucial for the humans..."I recommend it, but I should note I'm only half way. The first third of it I was like, "this is pretty fun in a pop-corn guilty pleasure kinda way". But then some stuff goes down and things when up a couple notches on the intense meter.
In my first novel, Ohlen's Arrow, I wanted to create a creature that filled the classic role orcs do in D&D. But I didn't want to call them orcs, so I created cru'gan and made their appearance slightly different. They're the bad guys in the first book.At the tail end of that book I introduce a new race called dvaken that are basically evil dwarves.
In the second book, Ohlen's Bane, I let the reader discover that cru'gan (orcs) really aren't evil, they just want to be left alone. Also, the mythology is that cru'gan, humans, and dvaken (dwarves) started out as brothers, and that humans are actually the greedy, conniving bastards and cru'gan are the honorable ones.
I'm about to finish the rough draft of the third book, Paragon's Call, where I blow the origin mythos of cru'gan and dvaken out of the water and really blow the reader's mind.
Orcs serve a purpose in a story. Stormtroopers damn near do the same thing in the Star Wars saga. You need mass quantities of generic bad guys, and orcs do that. I wanted to turn things upside down and ask, "Why do orcs have to be the bad guys?"
I like asking why do they have to be the bad guys. And I've got a hell of a reason for why in my world.
My question would be: Why do they need a reason? I love the Warhammer Orks because they literally thrive on violence and destruction. They are an alien race which doesn't need an affirmative reason for raising hell, it is simply who they are. I disliked Nichol's Orcs because they seemed like they were basically good creatures who had been dealt a crappy hand. I guess the point is that we shouldn't have to understand the motives of a non human race. Shagrat was not just a green person, he was an orc to the core. I don't think he has to apologize for it.
Ashe wrote: "I like asking why do they have to be the bad guys."Someone's got to be. 0:)
Arley: I just dislike handwavy "the whole race is evil" stuff.Mary: Humans seem to do a pretty bang up job. :P The US is probably getting Trump for president after all.
Mostly that was just a jab at politics.I mean, why have anything besides humans is a question I see asked quite a bit. And I'm gonna answer "why have orcs" with a cop out answer that's also honest.
Because they're cool.
Also because anyone can be evil. One of the villains I've made in the second Grimluk book is a halfling. A very sadistic one.
Elves can definitely be really snooty bastards. Especially the Thalmor.
watched a somewhat cheezy, but quit Orc-centric movie last night. Curse of the Dragonslayer (terrible name and completely ludicrous in context). Pretty fun despute a lack of quality. it's on Netflix right now.
They say evil is a matter of perspective. Orcs are just trying to survive like every other race. Depending on the mythos of the story, they were most likely created by evil wizards, etc. some say they started as elves that were corrupted, blah blah blah. It would be interesting to find a story that is from the orc's perspective. Maybe blue-collar orcs vs. the haughty and arrogant elves (the 1%). Hmmmm.
I'm 100% for blue-collar orcs dealing with arrogant elves.
I like the imagery of orcs literally wearing blue collars. Can you imagine one in mechanic's coveralls working under your car? Makes me chuckle.
Dan wrote: "I like the imagery of orcs literally wearing blue collars. Can you imagine one in mechanic's coveralls working under your car? Makes me chuckle."In grade school, we had a lunch lady that I swear was at least 1/2 orc. Her sister drove the bus. (Or was it her brother? We could never tell.)
Ashe wrote: "I'm 100% for blue-collar orcs dealing with arrogant elves."And what do blue-collar orcs and arrogant elves buy you that the same, in human form, don't?
I have read one too many stories in which pointy ears or green skin are cosmetic differences on what is not only a human but one from at least middle class late 20th/early 21st century America or Western Europe. They tend to reveal a lot more about the author than they do about the trope of orcs.
Depends on the writer, I guess, Mary. I mean, realistically, almost every writer to ever use other races basically made cosmetic changes to humans. Star Trek did it, Tolkien did it. I guess just don't read anything with non-humans and then you won't run into that problem anymore.
Ashe wrote: "I mean, realistically, almost every writer to ever use other races basically made cosmetic changes to humans.. . I guess just don't read anything with non-humans and then you won't run into that problem anymore.."Nonsense, there are certainly writers who manage much better than that. At the very least, they manage to avoid making them not human beings of their own milieu. (Poul Anderson.)
Enough to ensure that your "solution" is not mandatory.
Scott wrote: "Greg wrote: Trying to kill a full blood orc is like trying to kill a A Cyberdyne Systems series T-800 Model 101 Terminator, which is why the half-orcs in this world became so crucial for the humans..."I enjoyed it Scott. 3.5 to 4 stars in my humble opinion.
The one plot hole that didn't quite mesh for me was that there were so many half-orcs. The reason for this is pretty much explained but I couldn't really buy it. Otherwise a very fun read.
Mary wrote: "Ashe wrote: "I'm 100% for blue-collar orcs dealing with arrogant elves."And what do blue-collar orcs and arrogant elves buy you that the same, in human form, don't?
I have read one too many stor..."
You are right to a degree, but that shouldn't diminish the impact of the story. The different races are often used symbolically, as you said to represent hierarchal or racial differences. And that can elevate a story from simple escapist fantasy, to a one with meaning. Potentially anyway. Just my two cents.
Dan wrote: " And that can elevate a story from simple escapist fantasy, to a one with meaning. "It can also degrade it by making it lose touch with reality in favor of its intended meaning.
Mary wrote: "Dan wrote: " And that can elevate a story from simple escapist fantasy, to a one with meaning. "It can also degrade it by making it lose touch with reality in favor of its intended meaning."
It's subjective at that point. But fair's fair. I'm not one for stories with an overbearing message most of the time either. Just playing devil's advocate to look at both sides of the coin. I try to keep an open mind.
Edit: Another reason for human-like denizens is our own mythology and history. Giants, Elves, Dwarves and other creatures abound in Earth's vast lore and often quite humanistic in traits. And a lot of fantasy, especially early works tend to pull from sources like mythology, epics and lore.
They would probably be a lot better if people kept returning to the taproots for inspiration.
Mary wrote: "Ashe wrote: "I mean, realistically, almost every writer to ever use other races basically made cosmetic changes to humans.. . I guess just don't read anything with non-humans and then you won't run..."Okay? It was more of a suggestion. I don't know. I like orcs, I'm writing orcs, I'm trying to give the races differences, but I doubt I'm gonna win tons of praise for making all my non-humans especially non-humany.
Ashe wrote: "It was more of a suggestion."It was a profoundly silly suggestion. If I wanted humans in the first place, I wouldn't complain about humans with cosmetic differences.
Mary wrote: "Ashe wrote: "I mean, realistically, almost every writer to ever use other races basically made cosmetic changes to humans.. . I guess just don't read anything with non-humans and then you won't run..."I found this conversation interesting because when I think of "races," by definition I think of humanoid rather than "alien." Did I miss something? I mean, I don't consider a rottweiler to be a "race" of dog or a tiger a "race" of feline.
Wondering if I was, in fact, correct, (or missed some nuance of the word) I looked up race:Race, as a social construct, is a group of people who share similar and distinctive physical characteristics.
"Group of people," hence, human.
Animal-esque aliens are often among the most impressively alien ones. What would an intelligent dog be like? Or a tiger? Since you can research and not try to rely on your own experience, by definition non-alien.
The tightrope writers walk with the Orc is that they needs must make them unique enough to pique readers' interests while still retaining some vestige of what makes them Orcs. My own Orcs -- who do not call themselves "orcs", but rather "kaunar" -- are the spiritual descendants of Tolkien's Orcs, thus I listed out the traits of JRRT's creation, how those traits were achieved, and how those same traits might be gained if Orcs were a race found in Norse myth. For example, I went with the (now discarded) notion JRRT had that Orcs were created by Morgoth from captive Elves; kaunar, then, were dvergar captured by Loki and twisted by him in order to serve as minions for his monstrous children, Fenrir, Jormungandr, and Hel. They were decimated by the Aesir when the latter came for Loki's children and wound up on Midgardr, hiding in caves and deep in forests . . .But also, I wondered how the kaunar might gel as a society apart from Mankind, but similar enough that Men might adopt a few of their traits. Hopefully, this makes the kaunar familiar-yet-different.
That's been the hardest part: making a race of creatures not inherently evil but decidedly self-centered, who has no use for Mankind, but who -- according to the edicts of my editor and publisher -- must be sympathetic to modern human readers while not being just a bunch of dudes in Orc costumes . . .
You bring up several good points Scott. And I think most importantly regarding the discussion at hand is that, sometimes, certain creative control is out of your hands. If you want to be successful you have to concede some requests from editors and publishers.That said, though I have yet to read any of your works, the concept of your Orcs, or Kaunar, is rather interesting. It hearkens back to their original inception as well as brings something fresh by incorporating them into Norse mythology. And it makes sense too. Much of Tolkien's work is influenced by Norse mythology, now it comes full circle where his works influence a Nordic stories.
Dan wrote: "You bring up several good points Scott. And I think most importantly regarding the discussion at hand is that, sometimes, certain creative control is out of your hands. If you want to be successful..."This is a point we've gone round and round on, my editor and I. My initial manuscript has a kaunar protagonist, Grimnir, who is like a mix between Grendel's mother, Shagrat from LOTR, and Attila the Hun: interesting, but not someone you'd want to invite in for dinner. My editor wants the rough edges filed off him, to make him sympathetic. Now, I can do this or I can refuse . . . but my editor has 25 years in the business and more bestsellers under his belt than I can shake an elf at. It would be somewhat foolish to totally disregard his advice, so I'm engaged in smoothing the edges while still maintaining my vision for the character. "Smoothing the edges", of course, is editor-speak for making him more human (and, inexorably, more like a dude in an Orc suit). Tightrope.
Dan, this particular book is called A Gathering of Ravens and it should be available in January 2017!
Scott wrote: "The tightrope writers walk with the Orc is that they needs must make them unique enough to pique readers' interests while still retaining some vestige of what makes them Orcs. My own Orcs -- who do..."I like the depth of thinking and reasoning about your version of orcs and the setting/context in which they appear in your writing - not far removed from what Tolkien himself did (although he had a deep fascination for etymology as well).
I wonder if you could adjust Grimnir's character by giving him a backstory with a more rough or violent youth and that the smoothing out of the rough edges is due to his age/maturity/experience/fatigue?
Ashe wrote: "I like that idea."Thanks Ashe! Hey, how's the next book in the Grimluk series getting on?
Greg wrote: "I wonder if you could adjust Grimnir's character by giving him a backstory with a more rough or violent youth and that the smoothing out of the rough edges is due to his age/maturity/experience/fatigue? "It's actually very similar to this: at the start of the story, he's as unremittingly vile as one can be without kicking puppies and punching kittens; he's not evil, per se, just seriously self-centered and without any hint of human scruples. As the story progresses, he begins to understand his human captive (he kidnaps a young Christian to serve as his guide, kicking off a parallel story arc about redemption and faith), and his captive begins to understand him until they reach a moment of parity and mutual respect near the climax.
My editor's bone of contention is in certain habits and attitudes Grimnir has. He is profane, given to crude jokes, and makes an almost Gollum-esque sound that's somewhere between a cough and a curse. His only redeeming feature for the first half of the book is, as one beta reader put it, "he carries me along on badass alone". I prefer to leave him precisely like that.
Greg wrote: "Ashe wrote: "I like that idea."Thanks Ashe! Hey, how's the next book in the Grimluk series getting on?"
It's comin along. Kickstarter's up and running. At the rate it's going, I'm doubting it'll fund by I can hope! But yeah, working through the second draft. Hoping the kickstarter will fund so I can afford art and an actual editor this go round.
Scott wrote: "Greg wrote: "I wonder if you could adjust Grimnir's character by giving him a backstory with a more rough or violent youth and that the smoothing out of the rough edges is due to his age/maturity/e..."I think I like that he's a badass! LOL I'm guessing he has some kind of Damascene conversion mid-way through the book which softens his character somewhat? If it gives too much away to talk about what happens, then of course you don't have to answer that. ;)
Ashe wrote: "It's comin along. Kickstarter's up and running. At the rate it's going, I'm doubting it'll fund by I can hope! But yeah, working through the second draft. Hoping the kickstarter will fund so I can afford art and an actual editor this go round. "
It's good to hear 'second draft' as that means most of the work has been done already. Now for all that tweaking....
Just finished some tweaking on the proofs of an article I wrote. At just over 43 pages, I probably should have published that article as a book - thankfully, I have a flexible editor!
Greg wrote: "I think I like that he's a badass! LOL I'm guessing he has some kind of Damascene conversion mid-way through the book which softens his character somewhat? If it gives too much away to talk about what happens, then of course you don't have to answer that. ;)"It's not so much a Damascene conversion as it is a bridge of understanding between Grimnir and his human captive -- that they need one another in order to survive.
I can't share much, but here's a rough draft of the jacket copy:
He is called by many names. To the Danes, he is skraelingr; to the English, he is orcnéas; to the Irish, he is fomoraig. He is Corpse-maker and Life-quencher, the Bringer of Night, the Son of the Wolf and Brother of the Serpent. He is Grimnir, and he is the last of his kind – the last in a long line of monsters who have plagued humanity since the Elder Days.
Drawn from his lair by a thirst for vengeance against the ambitious Dane who slew his brother, Grimnir emerges into a world that has changed. A new faith has arisen, a Nailed God from the East, and against it the Elder World cannot abide. The Old Ways are dying, and their followers retreating into the shadows; even still, Grimnir’s vengeance cannot be denied.
Taking as hostage a young Christian to be his guide, Grimnir embarks on a journey that takes him from the hinterlands of Denmark, where the wisdom of the ancient dwarves has given way to madness, to the war-torn heart of southern England, where the spirits of the land make violence on one another. And thence to the green shores of Ireland and the Viking stronghold of Dubhlinn, where his enemy awaits . . .
But, unless Grimnir can set aside his hatreds, his dream of retribution will come to nothing. For Dubhlinn is set to be the site of a reckoning – the Old Ways versus the New – and Grimnir, the last of his kind left to plague mankind, must choose: stand with the Christian King of Ireland and see his vengeance done, or stand against him and see it slip away?
Greg: Yes! I felt so accomplished having the first draft done before I started the campaign this time. Book 2 has been a lot quicker to write and the 2nd draft run through is going smoothly now that I'm past my first major bit of rewriting. Had to completely rewrite chapter 2. Will be getting into more of the orcs soon too with chapter 7 finished.
Scott wrote: "Greg wrote: "I think I like that he's a badass! LOL I'm guessing he has some kind of Damascene conversion mid-way through the book which softens his character somewhat? If it gives too much away to..."Interesting storyline, especially (for me) that it ends in in Early Christian Ireland. :) Wasn't skraelingr also used for the Beothuk and other indigenous peoples encountered by the Norse in North America?
Ashe wrote: "Greg: Yes! I felt so accomplished having the first draft done before I started the campaign this time. Book 2 has been a lot quicker to write and the 2nd draft run through is going smoothly now tha..."
Sounds like you're also enjoying the process more! When do you expect to have vol. 2 finished?
Greg wrote: "Wasn't skraelingr also used for the Beothuk and other indigenous peoples encountered by the Norse in North America?"It was! Though in Icelandic, its original meaning was simply "foreigner". The conceit is that the Viking explorers called the North Americans something that was already in their lexicon, a word for something that disgusted them and made them uneasy at the same time, an atavistic memory of the kaunar.
Greg: Sometime over the summer I hope. Planning an October release to line up with Halloween and Orctober. Hoping I can finish by August and start book 3. If I have to get beta readers, it might go slower.
In my trilogy The Taesian Chronicles, I started with taesians (humans), who fought "cru'gan" (orcs), and then discovers cru'gan aren't so bad, but "dvaken" (dwarves) are. I explained it all with a "Three Brothers" type myth story, as told by a cru'gan character central to my plot. My purpose was to turn the orc and dwarf tropes on their head:When time was new, three sons were born to the Goddess Mother, the creator of the Universe, who dwelt in the sky. The first born was runty and spiteful. The second born was ugly but honorable and wise. The last born was the tallest and fairest of the three but greedy and deceitful.
When they were grown, the Goddess Mother told her sons she had a gift for them but would not tell them what it was. They had one day and one night to decide amongst themselves which brother would receive it.
The ugly but honorable middle brother said, ‘Our blessed Mother has created us and given us life. We deserve nothing more and should not accept her gift.’
The spiteful eldest brother coveted possessions above all else and wanted the gift for himself, but he could not persuade his brothers to let him have it. When they weren’t looking, he put poison in their wine in the hope they would die, leaving only him to receive the gift.
But he was not the only brother that wanted the gift. That night the fair, youngest brother waited for the others to fall asleep, then he secretly sent a scroll to their Mother with a message written upon it saying, ‘My brothers have decided that I am to receive your gift.’
After a day and a night, the Goddess Mother summoned her three sons to her chamber.
She bade the youngest and fairest son to step forward. She gave him a sword made of light from the creation of the Universe. ‘I give you this sword, and with it, you shall forever dwell upon the surface of the world and live within the light of the sun, the moon, and the stars.’
The fairest son took the sword in his hand and at that moment the poison given him by the eldest brother took hold and he collapsed to the floor. The Goddess Mother cast a spell to revive him and in so doing saw that her firstborn son had poisoned him. She cursed the eldest son and said, ‘You are the bane of my womb and shall forever dwell beneath the surface of the world, taking nourishment from rock and darkness.’
The Goddess Mother even in her wrath took pity on the middle brother and said, ‘Although you are unseemly and possessing of an ill countenance, you are wise and honorable. I will not curse you but I will not bless you, either. You may choose to dwell and live as you can.’
The Goddess Mother then cast all three of her sons out of her presence and down to the world.
The descendants of the eldest brother dwelt in the ground and called themselves Dvaken, which means ‘dirt eaters’ in the common tongue. The fair and blessed ones that dwelt on the surface under the sun and the moon and the stars called themselves Taesians, which means ‘children of light.’ The descendants of the ugly but wise middle brother dwelt in the spaces between and called themselves Cru’gan, which means ‘honorable ones.’
Well, Orc lovers ... the World of Warcraft movie is set to be released in June. I played and enjoyed the game for several years, and like the upcoming movie, the game centers on both orcs and humans. Here is a link to a few pictures of some of the movie sets. I'm hoping for a classic fantasy movie . . .http://spinoff.comicbookresources.com...
Sword & Sorcery: "An earthier sort of fantasy"
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I'm in favor of this! ;)