Vaginal Fantasy Book Club discussion
Oct 2014: Wicked as they Come
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Discuss Wicked as They Come - October Main Pick
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Amy
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Oct 23, 2014 10:59AM
Maybe it's because I've been over vampires for a very long time, but I didn't care for Wicked As They Come. This is also my first Steampunk book, so I find it a disappointment. I'm sure there are fantastic Steampunk books out there without vampires. I'll try to discover them later. One thing that really grossed me out about the book was the author's constant mentioning of how bloodstained everyone's teeth was after drinking blood. I really liked the time travel/world travel aspect of the book, especially since I have finished watching the first half of the first season of "Outlander".
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I just finished it and I realy enjoyed it, in a delightfully creepy and cheesy way (yes both at the same time).Like some of you I also found that Tish gave away too easily for someone just out of a toxic relationship. And it was a bit too obvious that Criminy was not creepy enough for them to be appart.
I'm thinking about reading the whole series...
I'm curious, some of us seem willing to suspend our disbelief a bit more than others. I wonder if it's because a few of us approach the books as romance fans, while others approach as genre fans? If you're not a fantasy or paranormal fan, I can see how a relationship with Criminy would be a tough pill to swallow. Working theory?
Laurel wrote: "I'm curious, some of us seem willing to suspend our disbelief a bit more than others. I wonder if it's because a few of us approach the books as romance fans, while others approach as genre fans? ..."
Why does critically evaluating a character make us not approaching the books as romance fans? I'm a fan of the romance genre.
Why does critically evaluating a character make us not approaching the books as romance fans? I'm a fan of the romance genre.
I still think people should critique the story, but as a fan of fantasy/Sci fi fan, I love to buy in and immerse into the author's world. That's why I read the story. If there is a mystery or love component, it's almost secondary to me. In this world, people find Criminy and his people attractive. So, I buy in. Romance is a fairly new genre for me, and I'm not used to questioning the rules of the world an author's created. My comment was, I think, how I try to relate to much of the discussion. I hope I'm explaining myself. I wasn't trying to be rude.
Oh sorry! There have been a lot of comments about how the people who don't like the pairing, it's because they're not looking at it from the perspective of a "romance genre" fan and I'm a bit touchy about that. xD I misunderstood your comment! I'm so sorry. Carry on.
No worries. I'm excited that the group picked a book I feel like I'm connected to. I love the people who participate in the discussions and am very excited about Tuesday's podcast. I also have been very interested in reading about all the perspectives as I wish I understood a bit more about romance. A lot of the ones people have suggested to me seem so domineering with these alpha male leads. I don't understand why they're so popular. But, I'm happy to read that not all romance fans fall into that category! This group has introduced me to a number of authors I would have never discovered on my own.
Laurel wrote: "I'm curious, some of us seem willing to suspend our disbelief a bit more than others. I wonder if it's because a few of us approach the books as romance fans, while others approach as genre fans? ..."I pretty much only read sci-fi/fantasy/paranormal anything (romance or otherwise) and I hated this. I'm okay with alpha males when there seems to be a reason for it- like they're an alpha of a pack, or a captain, or whatever. Yes, he was the head of a caravan, but I don't get crazy possessive alpha male vibes from circus ringleaders.... There just seemed to be no reason or basis for a lot of his behavior other than he's just a pushy domineering guy. I need a story/world backed reason to explain that other "he just is because I say so" reason from the author.
I think I understand what Laurel is trying to say. I am a romance fan, but I really buy in when the characters seem viable or the word is immersive enough. This is why this book was 'meh' for me. Both the characters were slightly forgettable... And other than the blud bunnies... I'm having a hard time remembering the world of this book off the top of my head. ( I read it a couple weeks ago). And in all honesty, I didn't really critique the book until I had finished it. I will say though, either as a romance or a steam punk/paranormal story... It never really succeeded or commuted to either. It broke it's own rules, the environment was that distinctive, and the romance wasn't all that steamy.
Did I mention that? I like steamy. What is the point of a page about sex if it isn't steamy? Should have just faded to black. (Granted, this book sexy time was better than average).
I have also been into more sci-fi:romance lately... So maybe that was my issue? Where are the big nice guy aliens? (Haha) there is a series I want to suggest, but I need to figure out which in the series would be the best to read, because the first few books are not very good.
Laurel wrote: "I'm curious, some of us seem willing to suspend our disbelief a bit more than others. I wonder if it's because a few of us approach the books as romance fans, while others approach as genre fans? ..."Good working hypothesis but I don't think it is that neat - I'm a genre fan, not primarily a romance fan, I think there are people on both ends of the continuum on both sides of the fence with this one!
I enjoy romance and fantasy/sci-fi, but I've grown increasingly intolerant of these kinds of relationships being portrayed as romantic. I'm just not okay with these kinds of relationships being sold as romantic, as healthy, as good things in any form of media. Because society is just as much informed by media as media is informed by society. And the more we sell these relationships as okay, the more people buy into it. And that's dangerous. It's dangerous for everyone, but especially to women. Romance/sci fi/fantasy shouldn't just get some kind of free pass because "well, that's the way it is". There's no reason that these genres can't write their romances in ways that aren't sexist and dangerous.I wouldn't mind Criminy's behavior so much if Tish hadn't just accepted it and just fallen for him and reached the conclusion that she was going to end up with him with no consideration whatsoever. There was a tiny bit of pushback at the beginning and then it disappeared. If it had continued for much longer than it had, if Criminy had realized that he needed to respect her enough to not treat her like she was a possession, if the book hadn't acted like his behavior was romantic, I wouldn't have minded. It's all in the way these things are framed.
Thanks for your comment Laurel, you're really making me think about how I perceive stories and why I would enjoy some stories or not.In the case of this book, I feel like the love story and the universe are two equally important parts. For example, if the love story was told in an everyday environement, I would have found it very boring ! And I'm not sure I'd have liked the universe without the love interest.
But let's face it : it's again a story about vampires that are not really vampires... Too much vampires ! :)
And I totally agree with you Katie about the problem about how relationships are portrayed.
Thank you, Maza. That's kind of you to say.
I only saw posts on this link not working, so I'd like to add that it's working fine for me now. Enjoy!Anja wrote: "I highly recommend checking out this interview if you wrote in this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ8K9... . It touches on a LOT of the things we've discussed.
Including that Criminy'..."
Regarding "rapey" hookups in romance novels:In the Swords and Lasers hangout, Delilah Dawson talked about her status as a rape victim influencing her desire to make Criminy and Tish's relationship consent driven. I thought that definitely came out through the book. Then today, I came across Laurie Penny's Unspeakable Things at the library and read a quote I wanted to share:
"Telling little girls to 'just say no' is...even less use[ful] in a sexual culture where 'no' is one of the most erotic things a woman can say. The fetishisation of female resistance--the erotics of 'no'--is ancient, but it is not immutable. ...if she wants to 'catch' a man, she must give every appearance of not wanting him, dropping his calls, not returning texts, playing 'hard to get'. Real men don't want women to want what they want; instead of a meeting of minds and squishy bits, sex is all about submitting to his desires."
I'm not all the way through Kiss of Steel yet, but the first few chapters have hinted at rape already. Penny's remarks about the "erotics of 'no'" brings a lot of insight to the rapey vibe some of these novels excel at.
I hardly ever participate in the discussions because I feel by the time I get here everyone else has basically voiced what I was thinking. Still, I really wanted to start participating after lurking in the shadows for a long time so here goes...I finished this book a few days ago and I enjoyed it way more than I thought I would. It was pretty tropey(?) but still enjoyable. I loved Sang the most and I didn't mind that it was a terrible place. I felt that was kind of the point.
I guess my main gripe with it wasn't so much that Criminy was acting "creepy" and possessive but I that felt like he had no consideration for her once she informs him of the life that he so casually ripped her from; her job, her Grandmother, etc. His reaction was just, "Oh your dying Grandmother relies on you oh well too bad because I need love." I was always really irritated that she wasn't more upset about this. Every other page I'd be like "Dude.... your GRANDMOTHER..." By the time she starts giving a shit you already know she is in love with Criminy and Grams isn't really the focus even though the story really wants you to think she is.
Also how does the time traveling thing work? If time freezes on Earth while she's knocked out how is she able to kill Goodwill back on Sang. Maybe I read it wrong. I was very confused.
I just don't think she did a very good job at making it a consent-driven romance. Sure, she says "yes" and she's willing, but it's more about his behavior and the behavior that she consents to. There's very little development for her to reach the point of consent. There's some resistance in the beginning, but then, with no development, she's just decided she's going to be with either Criminy or Casper, no other option, and it does really show how the arrived to that point. And while she's consenting, she's consenting to the possessive, overbearing, and obsessive behavior of Criminy is an issue in and of itself.
I had issues with figuring out exactly how the time travel/travel between worlds was supposed to work. If it would just freeze while they were gone, then Tish would have time in either Sang of her world to sleep, at least as some point. Initially it's presented that time continues to move and it's just like you're asleep in one world and awake in the other, but then later it's presented as though time stops and they just wake up right where they left off. It seemed pretty inconsistent.
Time keeps moving when she's wearing the locket and freezes on the other side when she takes it off.
Well, first off, I think the author herself said it best on page 298 "Sang is what would happen if my bookshelf threw up." That's pretty much how I felt about the book in general. Basically, I felt it was pretty immature, from a character, plot, and writing perspective. The entire plot was them just running from place to place with no apparent point. I mean, to Manchester, to the island, back to the caravan, back to Manchester, with lots of random off-shoot moments throughout. There were plot devices introduced that never seemed to really matter as much as they were set up to: Casper, the potion from the witch, the book she was supposed to bring back to him that just got dropped on the floor of her car and never mentioned again, the aging thing... it felt schizophrenic and unsophisticated.
Also, Criminey just felt like a bunch of male leads mixed haphazardly together and thrown up again. In the S&L interview she describes being inspired by a Mr. Darsey vampire dude, but having him be a weird zany juggler magician just seems like the antithesis of what Mr. Darsey was like. Anyway, he just never felt clearly fleshed out for me. Same with Tish.
Anyway, all that said, I was still basically on board until around 80% when things just plummeted downhill for me. First, the bloody up against the tree sex scene was not hot to me. Then, the whole "mopping herself with a hanky" bit was just seriously off-putting to me. I mean, gross. By the way, the idea of sexy times with gloves on that happened in the sub was not hot to me either. For some reason the image of suede gloves getting saturated in juices and then getting rubbed around on one's face and body is just gross to me.
Then, "'I'm not sure how to ask, but aren't you worried about the... consequences of our actions?' he said. He looked up with a wry grin. 'Half-bluds don't lead a merry life here. I'm surprised YOU'RE NOT TAKING PRECAUTIONS. I can get you the herbs, if you with." Um dude, how is it her responsibility to take precautions? You're the one who knows the consequences in your world. Douchey! (also, obnoxious that there's the whole handy herbs that magically fix everything).
Then there was the scene where Criminy uses her blood to look in the pool and find the locket. Um, he did this after they already ran of to Manchester, then to the island, then back to the caravan... how about he did that before they ran off the first time? Could have saved some random running around.
Then the invisible sex scene was a huge let-down. I read that part after already watching the VF hangout, so I was really looking forward to it because it seemed like a great concept. I was imagining a scene where there was some serious sexy times, with this cool shift in power dynamic where there was no gaze on her, but she could see him. As it turned out, he was in a disguise too, they turned the lights off so it didn't matter anyway, and it was a fade to black scene with no details... snore.
Anyway, I was pretty much over it by the end. The villain was a very simplistic villain. I didn't really care about Tish at all at that point. Criminy was to all over the place for me to care about his character. Meh!
I won't be reading more in the series. I hope they do get better as the author gained experience.
All that said, I was still mainly
Oh, and it was weird that she was able to fall asleep at the drop of a hat any time she needed to travel back and forth. I mean, she's running for her life, she breaks into a building, finds a random room, lays down, and zonks out in like five seconds? Then at the end she's in a room with the super villain, his henchman, her love tied to a chair, and the pressure of having to succeed in her own rescue plan, and she's able to just snuggle into the covers and snooze away peacefully on command... year right.
Anna wrote: "Oh, and it was weird that she was able to fall asleep at the drop of a hat any time she needed to travel back and forth. I mean, she's running for her life, she breaks into a building, finds a rand..."Totally agree. I have a hard time sleeping that easily in my normal, boring life :P, imaging having the pressure of everything happening in that book. I would need to be drugged to be able to sleep under these circumstances.
Other than that, it was a pleasant read, Letitia a bit more annoying and not as independent as she wanted to prove to be than Tish and Criminy not as creepy as many say, only because I accept him as a fantasy character who is living in a world with different cultural/society rules, who was heart broken, who wanted to find true love and who used a spell to do that. For a fantasy character it's an ok scenario. And that's how I perceived it. If I approach it as a romance reader then yes I can see many flaws in their relationship.
Loved the carnival atmosphere and the Sang world in general.
Brittany wrote: "I agree, Criminy is a weird name. I'm not entirely sure what my brain thinks it should be read as, but I feel like I keep having to pause longer than necessary to make myself read his name correctl..."I also hated his name. I was reading it just like the way Letitia heard him say it when he introduced himself. I much prefer the pronunciation of CRYmuhnee as in the faux swear word.
Today, it also synonymous with bohemian or hippie, i.e. non-traditional lifestyles, when used in the lower case. Generally, however, it falls into the category of words which were once common but have fallen out of favor.
So, let me get this straight...Gypsy is considered a racial slur, but "gypsy" is not? I honestly don't feel gypsy is a bad word, but that could just be due to Western culture glamorization in media. I am also not Romani, so I apologize for my ignorance and do not intend to direct insult by using the capital G form. I merely needed to differentiate so I understand this concept clearly.
I use gypsy on a regular basis when referring to the bohemian lifestyle and see nothing wrong with it. In fact, I feel a certain sense of pride at being told I have a gypsy spirit...I just take it to mean "free".
Morbus wrote: I always read "Sang" as shorthand for "sanguine", a bloody color, but then she appears to be musing it's the past tense of "Sing", which makes no evident sense in the surrounding text.Ditto. I also read "Sang" as being shorthand for "sanguine". I thought it was the obvious explanation, and I had hoped the author might have addressed that in her Sword & Laser interview, but alas, no.
I really enjoyed this book overall. I definitely want to continue on with the series. I appreciated that Tish was neither a sniveling whining baby nor an ass kicking ball buster. It was nice to have an average heroine for a change.Sang was a really interesting world. I liked the authors spin on vampires. I hope we get to spend more time with the caravan in further books in the series. Does anyone who has read further know if there is still more to come with this series? I didn't see any upcoming books for this series after the one that came out this year.
Beth wrote: "For me (and how I sound out his name in my head), my mind keeps rhyming it with Jiminy and I get "When You Wish Upon A Star" stuck in my head for a while...oy."The author is one of the few who took the time to tell us that his name rhymes with Jiminy, so you got it right.
Beth wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "For what it's worth, the author posted the following on her FB page today..."That is amazing. I am glad readers brought up the issue, she made a sincere apology, and she dropped..."
Here, here.
Hannah wrote: "Laura wrote: "I thought this was a fun read. I enjoyed the world building more than the characters. I want my own horseless Cinderella carriage. I kept thinking of it as a dark Wizard of Oz so I wa..."Good to know. I plan to continue reading the series as well.
I know we finished this a while ago, but Patrick Rothfuss (author of Name of the Wind) posted this blog written by Delilah S. Dawson (author of Wicked as They Come) and it's worth sharing here. Made me want to read more of her stuff.http://www.whimsydark.com/blog/2015/3...
She writes some great blog posts and that one is no exception!
