Vaginal Fantasy Book Club discussion
Oct 2014: Wicked as they Come
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Discuss Wicked as They Come - October Main Pick

He's clingy, possessive, and jealous. There's something just wrong about someone who basically holds your life in their hands and then expecting you to love them back. He clothes her, feeds her, houses her, and employs her. She is entirely dependent immediately because he dragged her there. "You could love me or have your flesh ripped off by bludrats!"
Just because she is supposed to be his perfect match doesn't mean he is her match.

I do like his tragic backstory, but as a character he seems a bit bland and I cannot wait for him to get off the page fast enough.

As I've mentioned a few times now, I'm new to the romance genre, having only read a literal handful in the past. But, everything just seems so "easy", I guess, though it's hard to describe. Tish seems to accept everything that comes her way, and grows used to things incredibly smoothly. Within a day, she's accepted that Sang isn't a dream, she "could never get used to Criminy" then "swoon swoon he's all dreamy", it's "whee, there are two men for me here!" with Casper, it's "zomg, bludbunnies are so cute" then casually "my current punting count is 137". I'll accept that a book all about "poor me, this sucks, wake up Tish!" would be boring, and I'll accept (ignorantly so) that the point of a romance book is to have romance, but halfway through, and it's just been kissing (and accidental grinding, I suppose). Is it "normal" in the romance genre to have back-off infatuation and reader-teasing, only for a (potentially?) final payoff? (I'm not suggesting this is good or bad - plenty of TV shows do the same thing.) Is it normal to have romance forced on the heroine only to have her kinda like it or have hang-ups about moving forward?
And what's up with the golden showers? Twice: once, via fainting, in our world and then as statues in Sang. When she collapsed in our world, I accepted it as the "comedic misfortunes of Tish badumpchish", but there was any of a dozen ways to show the cruelty or contempt of the Coppers than having her be pissed on.

I agree about Casper. He wanted things a certain way and she didn't. He also immediately got jealous of Criminny which is a hallmark for a potential abuser. I can understand why people don't like Criminny because he does come off as a creep at the beginning. But when she tells him to back off he does. He also gives her space to sort out her feelings for Casper. If he was an abuser, he would not have done that. He also respects that she needs to choose what she wants if he wants their relationship to work. Abusers and creeps don't really do that.

There are so many things wrong with what he is doing to Tish. She seems blind to the fact that he is controlling her every move, he makes her give blood when they arrive in the city and for a moment it looks like she's going to call him on his bullshit behavior but no, it's for her own good. He is doing everything to protect her. Really, she wouldn't be in need of protection if he hadn't brought her there in the first place.
I don't think there is anything Criminy can do to redeem himself.

As for Criminy being controlling, from what I have read, I interpret this world to be completely alien...there are a few similarities to this one, but not enough to justify Tish wandering about on her owner trying to take control of everything. That world has rules of its own; rules Tish doesn't know and breaking those rules (deliberately or out of ignorance) could easily get her killed. And Criminy is the only thing keeping her alive at this point. Tish is a nurse. She's not some hard-nosed detective and she doesn't have super-strength or a magic power that would be useful in a fight. A Copper or a Bludman is about to bash her face in, "Oh, wait a sec, take off your glove and let me hold your hand. Perhaps I might distract you with some fortune-telling so that you won't kill me." Tish wouldn't have made it past the bludbunnies without Criminy. So, yeah...Criminy is calling the shots because she can't at this point. When I put it in that context, my feminist hackles tend not to rise as high.
As for Casper, I'm only half-way through, but I don't trust that guy as far as I could fling him by his pretty brown locks of hair. There's just something shifty about him...
I'm only half-way through, so we'll see if my opinions change as I go on.
M

And if we compare him to some of the male leads in a few of the books the group has read, he is rather tame.

Felicia definitely delivered in the everything happening department. Interesting start to a series. Has anyone continued on?

The Blud series definitely gets better after the first book. There are also a number of ebook novellas that are particularly good. :) Book 2 is my favorite. :)

I just find it really creepy that he sent a magical locket out into another world with the intent of having it kidnap "his perfect match" into his world to be his wife. Yes, he seems to care, but then I always remember she was brought against her will by him. Considering her past abuse, it just feels like more of the same.
I do agree on Casper, though. Dude is super shifty. I do like the idea of him peddling famous music form our world as his own, because why not?


As flawed as Criminy can be, I think his intentions are good.

It definitely had its issues, such as Tish's eagerness to just kill a guy in her world with little to no moral struggle on her part and the fact that she somehow has a vocabulary befitting of a Gilmore Girl (who the hell throws around the word "quotidian" like that?).
Did anyone else get the sense that maybe the author was trying too hard by throwing around a bunch of big words? They seemed so out of place coming from a twenty-something from the South.
Also, the ghost in the lighthouse bit just went a bit too far in my opinion. Sure, there's magic and "vampires" everywhere, but her appearance just felt out of place and nothing more than a poorly conceived vehicle to give the reader insight into Goodwill's motivations.
And while we're at it, must EVERY villain be the product of unrequited love? And do so many of the love interests have to have that rapey moment with the woman? I'd like to see those particular themes left out of a good story.
All that aside, I still really enjoyed the book a lot and can't wait to watch the Hangout!

I am a twenty-something from the South and I think I have a pretty impressive vocabulary. May not be on the level of an academic scholar, but pretty expansive. :p
But I understand the concern. I feel as though some authors crack open the thesaurus and try to find the biggest words possible to put in their writing. In a book such as one meant to be a light and quick read, you can tell those words are very much out of place amidst the rest of the text.

They wear high collars, long sleeves and gloves to avoid spreading the scent of their blood, but no underwear? Do they not get periods?
And it really bothered me that they seemed to travel great distances amazingly quickly without any major discomforts. I mean, 250 miles on horseback in a single day, no saddle (or even pants!), and she can still walk afterwards?
I'm chocking this book up to another paranormal romance that blew me out of the water with its world building and then failed to entrance me with its story. I cannot emphasize enough how cleverly the dichotomy between the Blud and Humans was established.
But Tish's crush on him was just so 180. As 180 as his infatuation with her. And since I started reading these books with Kushiel's Dart, I've gotten a little spoiled in the quality of character interactions that I expect now.
But Tish's crush on him was just so 180. As 180 as his infatuation with her. And since I started reading these books with Kushiel's Dart, I've gotten a little spoiled in the quality of character interactions that I expect now.

I'm with you on the world building. It was really interesting and was explained in a way I mostly enjoyed.
The romance felt really flat for me. It felt like more of a distraction, honestly. I honestly could not get over what felt like kidnapping me. There are some things that could have made it better, but as it is, I won't read anymore in the series.

If it was just Criminy it would be a weird name, but it's Criminy STAIN, which sounds kind of gross.

But now that most of that is finished with, I am kind of getting into the story. Criminy is still kind of a creeper (I have the idea that he wanted a girlfriend so he basically magicked one to where he was), but it seems to be becoming more subdued, so my initial negativity has warn off a bit, though I don't know that I actually LIKE him.

I had the same reaction as you and even went back to reread it to make sure I hadn't read wrong.

I did, too. It definitely read like she was saying Nana was already dead. I guess maybe it was just that it was writing in the past tense? She was talking about how she was watching her grandmother die presently in the story, but because it's all in the past tense, it came off sounding like she was already gone.
It could have been worded a lot better.
Katie wrote: "Gunnhildur wrote: I had the same reaction as you and even went back to reread it to make sure I hadn't read wrong. "
I did, too. It definitely read like she was saying Nana was already dead. I gue..."
Oh my gosh!!! Me too!!
I did, too. It definitely read like she was saying Nana was already dead. I gue..."
Oh my gosh!!! Me too!!

He went and pulled exactly what I suspected Casper would. Where others seem to be warming to Criminy, he's just bugging me more as the story rolls on. After the scene on the submarine, it feels like he's being more patronizing to Tish. He keeps calling her "little love," which just makes me cringe. I don't mind "love"...even "poppet" is a little endearing (although, I suspect my affection for that word is merely a throwback to Spike on BTVS). And when he confesses to feeding her his blood without her knowledge and "chucks her under the chin" with a wink (or something to that effect), I really wanted Tish to toss his butt into the ocean. If someone treated me that way, it would drive me completely batty. I keep trying to remember that he's not human and this is a different world, but patronizing is patronizing. And as much as he says he wanted "an equal," he definitely doesn't treat her as one.
I love the world-building in this book...but the characters are getting to me. The characters in the caravan were fantastic and interesting. But once Criminy and Tish left, that tapered off a bit and I was left with just them...my interest started to wane. The part with the ghost in the water and then the lighthouse when Tish was swimming around the wall seemed a little forced. It was like the author forgot to create a reason for the Mayor to be so bent on destroying the Bludmen so she just shoved that scene in. Maybe it will be revisited in a more interesting way later but for now, it just feels like an afterthought.
Hopefully, I can get to the end of the book without wanting to kill all the characters.

I'm so glad it wasn't just me! I was so worried for awhile that I was stupid or something because even when I confirmed that, yes, obviously, Nana is alive, I kept going back and reading the first part and every time it still read like she was saying she had watched Nana die and that she was dead.

He went and pulled exactly what I suspected Casper would. ..."
I confess, I have been *waiting* for you to get to that bit! When I read your suspicions about Casper feeding Tish blood I giggled, and I kept checking back to see if you were there yet.
Michelle wrote: "...and now I want to smack Criminy.
He went and pulled exactly what I suspected Casper would. Where others seem to be warming to Criminy, he's just bugging me more as the story rolls on. After the..."
I completely forgot that Spike would say, "poppet" and "love". For some reason, him saying it didn't feel creepy but reading Criminy saying it in the book felt creepy.
Hm. Interesting. I wonder if some things feel less strange when said aloud than when read.
He went and pulled exactly what I suspected Casper would. Where others seem to be warming to Criminy, he's just bugging me more as the story rolls on. After the..."
I completely forgot that Spike would say, "poppet" and "love". For some reason, him saying it didn't feel creepy but reading Criminy saying it in the book felt creepy.
Hm. Interesting. I wonder if some things feel less strange when said aloud than when read.

(view spoiler)
Perhaps I'm being overly critical but the story has just gone downhill for me after they left the caravan, there at least we had some interesting side characters.
Gunnhildur wrote: "Tish just keeps disappointing me and Criminy is no better.
The sex scene after Criminy killed the buck was not good. He was covered in animal blood getting it all over her, which wasn't that bad,..."
Yes, all the blood exchange made me physically cringe. In terms of blood exchange cringeness, it does not get better.
The sex scene after Criminy killed the buck was not good. He was covered in animal blood getting it all over her, which wasn't that bad,..."
Yes, all the blood exchange made me physically cringe. In terms of blood exchange cringeness, it does not get better.

Ugh! Yes! Part of me laughed while I actually screamed out loud, "WHAT THE CRAP?!"
Anja wrote: "I completely forgot that Spike would say, "poppet" and "love". For some reason, him saying it didn't feel creepy but reading Criminy saying it in the book felt creepy"
It's when Criminy tags on "little" to the "love" part that makes it sound smarmy and patronizing to me. When Spike said it, it just felt like part of his vocabulary. And when Hook calls Emma "love" in Once Upon A Time, it just sounds sweet. I suppose that's how it's meant for Tish as well, but it just doesn't sound right in my head. So, maybe you're right...when things are said aloud, perhaps they don't sound quite as smarmy/creepy/patronizing as they do on the page.
Michelle wrote: "Alicia wrote: "I confess, I have been *waiting* for you to get to that bit! When I read your s..."
Ugh! Yes! Part of me laughed while I actually screamed out loud, "WHAT THE CRAP?!"
Anja wrote: "..."
Maybe it was the accent and the 1970s punk getup which set up the context for the vocabulary. Also, the vampires were already set up as being anachronistic whereas we're reading this book in a modern context and the vocab feels strange.
But yes, the "little" definitely added to the ugh factory.
Ugh! Yes! Part of me laughed while I actually screamed out loud, "WHAT THE CRAP?!"
Anja wrote: "..."
Maybe it was the accent and the 1970s punk getup which set up the context for the vocabulary. Also, the vampires were already set up as being anachronistic whereas we're reading this book in a modern context and the vocab feels strange.
But yes, the "little" definitely added to the ugh factory.

I'm beginning to feel much the same way. I would love to see the story set almost completely in the caravan where we get to explore all those interesting characters.

I'm beginning..."
I advise reading her novellas, "The Mysterious Madame Morpho" and "The Damsel and the Daggerman." Both take place exclusively within the caravan!

Thank you for the suggestion.

I think the Bludworld is amazing -- the fodder for imagination is so dense I could get lost in it. If I were even a smidgen artistically inclined I'd want to draw every other scene and plaster it all over DeviantArt.
But the writing is all over the place. Sometimes there's a clever turn of phrase, but more often than not it's clunky and awkward and the phrases that are meant to be particularly descriptive are just weird (did anyone else cringe when they read about the sky being "bruised lavender" like breakfast cereal once all the marshmallows were eaten? I almost threw my kindle across the room for that one.)
I am less offended by "Criminy the Creeper" than some of you -- that kind of super-possessive "we are meant to be together so just deal with it little lady" thing is so common in paranormal romance reads I'm immune to it now. But I am sick to death of romance heroes calling their ladies love/poppet/sweeting/some-cutesy-piratical-British-endearment.
Edited to add: ALSO. I want a little steampunk protector pet robot SO BADLY.


My husband calls me crumpet or poppet, so I can't get too wound up about that one! But it did take a couple of years of marriage before we settled into the twee endearments.

I just really hate the whole "I want you immediately but I'm going to push you away" thing, especially when it's paired with the whole "I know what you want/need better than you" guy. It's a perpetuation of the idea that "no" doesn't mean "no", just "try harder", that women lie about what they want or don't know what they want, and that men know better than women when it comes to what they want and need. I know it's an incredibly common thing in romance novels, I just really wish it wasn't. I wish that there was a little more originality in these relationships, and that there wasn't so much perpetuation of these pretty gross and even dangerous ideas.
And from a storytelling perspective, it would be much more interesting to see a woman genuinely put off by a man initially, or at least not be immediately attracted or drawn to him, so that the attraction and feelings could have a natural development.
Katie wrote: "I'm kind of put off by the way Tish immediately reacts to both Criminy and Casper. There's so much about her abusive relationship and how she's trying to rebuild herself and form an independent lif..."
Well said!
It's what I like about romance anime. The plot isn't that the woman is confused about her feelings but that she's just too focused on her life to care.
Well said!
It's what I like about romance anime. The plot isn't that the woman is confused about her feelings but that she's just too focused on her life to care.

I had to smirk a little when the Ebola virus showed up -- what an unexpectedly topical read. ;)
Kelly wrote: "Just finished! I am tempted to keep reading the Bludworld novels because the world is so cool, but I have to say, I never really got into Criminy and Letiticia's love story. Maybe further books are..."
Other commenters have said that the sequels focus on the caravan versus Criminy and Letitia and are better for it! You'll see recs if you scroll through the thread. : )
Other commenters have said that the sequels focus on the caravan versus Criminy and Letitia and are better for it! You'll see recs if you scroll through the thread. : )

I could imagine every aspect of that wonderful, creepy caravan. I shivered a bit when Lizard Boy (sorry, I forget the first name), proudly announces to Tish that he's discovered he's venomous. I could see the bludbunnies, the cities, the submarine, the locket, the costumes, and every character. The world building is so strong, you could write endless stories within it.
And I disagree that Tish wasn't fleshed out as a character. I bonded with her and wanted to follow her journey. I understood her conflict over which world to live in, how boring her old life seemed that first day back. After all, what is she living for there? Just waiting until her grandmother dies? Still, she cannot pull herself away from that responsibility. I was so creeped out by Casper, yet she's able to feel empathy for him. She has depth, which I enjoyed.
And I agree with, I think it was Beth and Michelle, who pointed out that she's pragmatic enough to realize that while she wants to go about this world independently she would not survive it, just as the Bluds may not have survived without her intervention in her world.
I like that the answers aren't easy, that we have issues to discuss. Doesn't that make it rise above your basic, fluffy, bludbunny romance?

I agree. I just became sad for and mad at Tish after she appeared in the blud world.
Your comment made me want to read The Last Hour of Gann again. I think it has my all time favorite relationship in it. It develops over time and is so beautiful and complex.
Laurel wrote: "And I agree with, I think it was Beth and Michelle, who pointed out that she's pragmatic enough to realize that while she wants to go about this world independently she would not survive it, just as the Bluds may not have survived without her intervention in her world..."
That is true, but it doesn't excuse the possessive behavior. She was magically abducted into an unfamiliar and hostile world, how is that any different from being abducted in her own world and being held hostage. She is hostage to being kept safe by Criminy.
By the way I'm really enjoying this discussion and I'm always happy to see how respectful we are no matter how our opinions may differ.
Happy reading everyone!

I highly recommend checking out this interview if you wrote in this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ8K9... . It touches on a LOT of the things we've discussed.
Including that Criminy's voice WAS inspired by Spike. Four for you Michelle for catching that!
Including that Criminy's voice WAS inspired by Spike. Four for you Michelle for catching that!
Also, I've noticed a couple of odd phrases the author uses to describe people that kinda bug me. Like, she describes that one dude who's staring at the tightrope walker chick as having a "hairless bird chest" and the Siamese twins as having hair "the color of nothing". What color is that exactly? White? Black? Hair that changes color every few seconds? My brain doesn't know and it makes it really difficult for me to imagine what they look like.
I'm sure I'm just being nitpicky, but these things annoyed me as I read them.