Reading the Chunksters discussion
Archived 2015 Group Reads
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09/29 Infinite Jest by D.F. Wallace, Week 1
...what happens if I ask a question like "what do you guys think it meant when Tom Cruise saw purple chickens crossing the road in Manchuria?" Will that be taken as a leading question, when in reality I would honestly like to know what you guys think because I honestly don't know? Or, will it be taken as, "if Paula doesn't know the answer, that means the question doesn't get answered in the book, so the fun of wondering about that episode is ruined for me".I totally get this! Like I said, this is the exact problem I faced when we were reading Wind-Up Bird Chronicle. I loved the book and wanted to participate, but for the most part I tried to stay on the sidelines. I suppose I should not have worried about it so much.
If there was one book that I would not be surprised to find Tom Cruise and Purple Chickens in...it would be this one :)
Sorry! I know we're moving away from the "spoiler" topic, but just to clarify one thing: I assumed that anything that happens within the scheduled section is kosher to post without the spoiler. We only need spoilers if we are referring to something that is happening in future sections of the book? Is that correct?
Oh, yes. Everything is kosher within the scheduled section. As you said, use spoilers only if you are referring to something that is happening in the sections we have not read yet.
Zulfiya wrote: "Dustin wrote: "Have any of you read any of Wallace's short stories or essays, or will IJ be your first? I plan on reading Girl With Curious Hair, simply because it's been recommended and out of cur..."Thank you. I'm so glad you're enjoying it!:)
Thanks everybody for all of the lively discussion! Regarding the alternate universe question, I thought it was set in the future (say around 2020-2040 when the Williams sisters could be assumed to be retired as players but still active). But it's kind of surprising he added them in, but not the internet.
And characters. I didn't exactly relate closely to any characters but some of them were so convincing. Hal and the other tennis school boys were perfect, and I loved the cute scene between Hal and Mario about God and such.
What I thought was a little weird, was I had the impression Mario was a lot younger than Hal, but then there was a moment when it said Mario was 18. I guess those were different times. I wouldn't think Hal would still be at the tennis school when Mario was 18. Or was Mario not much younger, but just younger-seeming?
Oh and another thing that I thought so funny was the years being named for sponsor products and the Depend Undergarment being an adult incontinence pad with a whole year named for it and an example fitted onto the Statue of Liberty... marketing gone crazy!
Carrie, I got the impression that Mario might have a mental handicap of some kind? And that's why he was still at the school?In any case, Mario is definitely older. From page 32:
"Hal...saw his older brother succumb to gravity and fall back limp against the pillow"
Actually, looking at that section again reminds me of the phone call! Hal gets a mysterious phone call from Orin before the conversation with Mario. I wonder what that was all about.
...in fact, now that I'm reading it, there are SEVERAL things that are strange about that call:
1. When the connection is cut, the author tells us, "It had been Orin." Then, a paragraph later, for no discernable reason, he says, "The person on the phone had been O."
2. At the beginning of the chapter, DFW talks about how Hal had adopted his Father's way of answering the phone. From this I at first assumed that Orin had mistook Hal for their father, but then Himself was already dead at this point.
3. Then there's the content of the conversation. Orin says his head is full of things to say. Hal says he could wait forever. Orin says "that's what you think", and the connection is cut.
4. Last but not least, when Mario asks who was on the phone, Hal says "No one you know, I don't think." Does Mario not know his brother?
There's definitely got to be something more going on here.
Zulfiya wrote: "Oh, yes. Everything is kosher within the scheduled section. As you said, use spoilers only if you are referring to something that is happening in the sections we have not read yet."Thanks! :)
Oh and another thing that I thought so funny was the years being named for sponsor products and the Depend Undergarment being an adult incontinence pad with a whole year named for it and an example fitted onto the Statue of Liberty... marketing gone crazy!I had to read this a couple of times to make sure I was reading it correctly because it was so absurd.
John wrote: "Carrie, I got the impression that Mario might have a mental handicap of some kind? And that's why he was still at the school?In any case, Mario is definitely older. From page 32:
"Hal...saw his ..."
Oh yes, thank you! I totally missed that little 'older' word there. And in the same section it says that Mario has an oversized head. So he likely has some kind of disability.
1. When the connection is cut, the author tells us, "It had been Orin." Then, a paragraph later, for no discernable reason, he says, "The person on the phone had been O."
To me, this suggests Hal finds it very surprising that Orin would call him. Like he has to keep reminding himself it really happened.
Orin says "that's what you think",
Sinister!
4. Last but not least, when Mario asks who was on the phone, Hal says "No one you know, I don't think."
Yes, I did notice this. It could be a simple lie, but I guess nothing's that simple in this book! So I think Hal's saying something about the relationship between Mario and Orin, or lack of it. Orin is the eldest (page 10, mold-eating scene).
After reading John's comment above about the convo with Orin, it got me wondering more about Mario. Has it ever really mentioned Mario in relation to anyone else except for Hal?Could Mario be in Hal's head? Like an imaginary friend. Or maybe there was an older brother named Mario, but he's dead now? John's comment reminded me I've other books I've read where you think someone is a really character, but they are actually a figment of someone else's imagination.
I'm just thinking off the top of my head. I wish I had time to keep a journal while I'm reading to help me get my thought together, but I don't.
I love the writing style. It's engaging and stimulating. I needed that right now.
I will have to go back and reread this Hal/Mario/Orin section. I noticed the oddity at the end where Hal tells Mario that it was "no one he knew" on the phone. I thought that was weird, since they were all brothers. Then I thought that maybe he said that simply as an easy way out of having to tell Mario what their conversation was about?John: 2. At the beginning of the chapter, DFW talks about how Hal had adopted his Father's way of answering the phone. From this I at first assumed that Orin had mistook Hal for their father, but then Himself was already dead at this point.
I wondered about this too, why it was important to make note that sons sounded like their fathers if it didn't mean something in reference to this scene?
Natalie: Could Mario be in Hal's head? Like an imaginary friend. Or maybe there was an older brother named Mario, but he's dead now? John's comment reminded me I've other books I've read where you think someone is a really character, but they are actually a figment of someone else's imagination.
That's a really interesting suggestion, I like it! These discussions have me starting to now question the reality of everything and everyone.
As for keeping a journal, I still don't have one. And I don't want to start taking notes on a scrap of paper and then have to transfer. So I have found myself hesitating with starting next week's reading until I have one!! Maybe I am being too uptight and I just need to read and enjoy....
Ok... Is it worth downloading this book on my kindle??? I want your honest opinion. If so, I should catch up soon.H.
Hillary wrote: "Ok... Is it worth downloading this book on my kindle??? I want your honest opinion."Emphatic yes! I am greatly enjoying the book on my kindle.
although, that would turn to an emphatic NO if you do not have a touch-screen kindle. With a touch-screen, navigating the endnotes is simple. Without one, you would have to go through menus which would be a nightmare, I imagine.
Hillary wrote: "Ok... Is it worth downloading this book on my kindle??? I want your honest opinion. If so, I should catch up soon.H."
I bought it on my kindle too. I love that I don't have to heft a big book around. Like John said, the endnotes are awesome if you have a touch screen. I have a Paperwhite Kindle that I usually use and I've also read it from my Surface tablet and it has an awesome format on their as well.
The only regret with the kindle is that it's harder to scan when you want a quick refresher. But...I'd still rather not hold a big tome. (I actually haven't seen the book version so I'm not sure how big it is, but I'm assuming it's fairly hefty.)
Natalie wrote: "(I actually haven't seen the book version so I'm not sure how big it is, but I'm assuming it's fairly hefty.)"Ummm....yeah. It's hefty. And heavy. And mine is 2 inches thick. And 6 x 9 inches. :)
I carry it around with me all day in my bag, and apparently just for comfort knowing it's there, since I find myself not pulling it out to actually read because of the heft. Then I lug it home again and finally read in bed before lights out. lol.
John wrote: "Lastly, there is a footnote on page 64, right at the start of the next section, that I am dying to discuss. The Filmography? I may have to start a thread to talk about it, I don't know if I can wait until next week :) Maybe we could have a general "Footnote discussion" thread :)"Almost done reading this one footnote, lol, and now I know why you asked for a separate thread to discuss it and other footnotes!! Wow, there is a wealth of info and weird stuff packed in there.
Linda wrote: "Wow, there is a wealth of info and weird stuff packed in there."I know!! That's it, I'm time-traveling to Monday so I can talk about it. See you guys then.
Burning with impatience? I will open a footnote thread in a sec, but make sure that you use spoiler marks to comment and indicate what you are commenting one before the spoiler HTML.
John & Natalie, I do have touch screen kindle & will download book.
Hillary - I'm really glad I bought it on my kindle. I don't regret it at all. :)
Hillary - I'm really glad I bought it on my kindle. I don't regret it at all. :)
John wrote: "Carrie, I got the impression that Mario might have a mental handicap of some kind? And that's why he was still at the school?In any case, Mario is definitely older. From page 32:
"Hal...saw his ..."
Natalie wrote: "After reading John's comment above about the convo with Orin, it got me wondering more about Mario. Has it ever really mentioned Mario in relation to anyone else except for Hal?
Could Mario be in ..."
Linda wrote: "I will have to go back and reread this Hal/Mario/Orin section. I noticed the oddity at the end where Hal tells Mario that it was "no one he knew" on the phone. I thought that was weird, since the..."
I don't think Mario is a figment of Hal's mind unless you consider Moms to be also. Wallace, while describing Avril's thoughts on being a concerned but unsmothering single parent also makes reference to her children when she says she knows when to let go somewhat and let the two high functioning of her three sons make their own possible mistakes...(50).
As far as the conversation between Orin and Hal, I found it interesting Orin chose the song lyrics to "I want to tell you," by the Beatles to communicate with his brother...
'I want to tell you,' the voice on the phone said.
'My voice is filled with things to say.'
Mario is one year older than Hal because in YDAM (pg49), Hal is 17 and Mario will turn 18 the following month of May.
Rosemary wrote: "I read the different sections without even trying to make connections, because I thought it would just confuse me more. Because of that, I imagine I will want to read it over again after I finish!..."
I'm interested in why you think aspects of this book take place in another universe versus maybe in just the future? If you could expand on this a bit, thank you.
Ami wrote: "I'm interested in why you think aspects of this book take place in another universe versus maybe in just the future? If you could expand on this a bit, thank you. "
My reasoning is that there are several strong indications that the story takes place in the present or very near future (Serena Williams still being alive is one), however the aspects of their society are far too different to have come about in such a short time from OUR present. Therefore the world of the book must have stemmed from a 20th century that was different from the one we knew.
HOWEVER, I actually think even that view is missing the point a bit. I think at the heart of it, we are just supposed to accept Wallace's world for what it is and not try to explain it or justify it to anything outside of itself.
John wrote: "My reasoning is that there are several strong indications that the story takes place in the present or very near future (Serena Williams still being alive is one), however the aspects of their society are far too different to have come about in such a short time from OUR present. Therefore the world of the book must have stemmed from a 20th century that was different from the one we knew...."What are examples of things that you're noticing that are so different from the present?
John wrote: "I think at the heart of it, we are just supposed to accept Wallace's world for what it is and not try to explain it or justify it to anything outside of itself. ..."
Yes, this was how I understood it, so I was a little perplexed, yet intrigued, at the references to another universe.
Well, after the first 62 pages, I find Wallace may be slightly obsessed with suffocation. From descriptions of people turning purple faced, asphyxiating roaches, being visually suffocated, decapitated heads (cutting off the final breath of life), the death of Guiallame DuPlessis; I'll admit, I felt stifled. It's interesting because didn't Wallace, himself commit suicide by strangulation?I actually really like Hal. There's obviously so much more to Hal than we know at this point, but I'm hooked wanting to find out more. His internal conversations with himself during the college interview were nothing short of entertaining. Starting with correcting the grammar and word choice of those few interviewing him, to finding himself face first on the floor observing everybody's shoes. In addition to Hal, his Uncle Charles is by far my favorite; for the sole fact he's the best cheerleader/support system to Hal. Despite the obvious issue of Hal having endured through some excitable episode turning the interview process upside down, Uncle Charles livid with all of the fussing about looks over at Hal, and says, Have a look. How's the excitable little guy doing down there, Aubrey, does it look to you? Oh, I was dying of laughter.
After Hal was taken to the emergency room, he tells us he will be held for as long as he does not answer any questions. Then when he does finally respond, he is sedated and we enter the beginnings of a stream of consciousness...so it will be inversion of standard travel, the ambulance and ER: the journey first, then depart. I found this to be a rather poignant line-there's something about it I can't put my finger on, and it continues to resonate with me.
During the conversation between Hal and father, his father makes him aware of the family's sordid liaison with the pan-Canadian Resistance's notorious M. DuPlessis...(30). This seems like it would be the very same Guillame DuPlessis that was suffocated to death by Donald Gately?
Hal is such an insightful being, I found it evident in the discussion with Mario in the dorms about believing in God. Hal has a point to make with God and it's understandable since their father recently passed...
...I was going to ask if you believed in God...
...So tonight to shush you how about if I say I have administrative bones to pick with God, Boo. I'll say God seems to have a kind of laid-back management style I'm not crazy about. I'm pretty much anti death. God looks by all accounts to be pro-death. I'm not seeing how we can get together on this issue, he and I, Boo.(41)
I also noticed a play on the word God and Dog during this same conversation(41)...
Mario, what do you get when you cross an insomniac, an unwilling agnostic and a dyslexic.
'I give.'
You get somebody who stays up all night torturing himself mentally over the question of whether or not there's a dog.
Erdedy's section made me feel as if I was watching Darrin Arronofsky's Requiem for a Dream dealing with the same subject matter of addiction. The anxiety driven scene left me feeling unsettled and wanting to shower multiple times. You would think he was jonesing for something so much worse like a bag of blow, or some meth, but it was for high-resin pot? The description of how Erdedy would continuously smoke 200-300 bong hits per day depleting his stash and enabling him to making it the last time he would ever indulge in such activities was sick and completely overindulgent, only to in his mind cure himself by excess(22). This was the only section where I could not find a single ounce of humor.
I am only 6% into this book and I already feel the weight of it on me-it's heavy (no pun intended), bottom-line.
Ami wrote: I'll admit, I felt stifled. It's interesting because didn't Wallace, himself commit suicide by strangulation?"
A very good point, Ami
It's obvious they did not come out unscathed, between severe alcoholism (Dads) and neurosis and multi phobic (Moms); the three Incandenza boys had a fighting chance in hell to rise above their upbringing unaffected by their parent's inflictions. I'm sure Hal was bothered by having eaten that disgusting mold from the basement, but I think he was severely traumatized by a mother who was pacing the yard in hysterics, instead of taking control of her distraught child (11).
Cleo wrote: "What are examples of things that you're noticing that are so different from the present?"The biggest one is probably that the U.S. and Canada have been merged. If the story takes place in the first half of the 21st century, that is not something that is even remotely likely to arise from our current world.
Another thing is that the technology infrastructure is different. they seem to have an "internet" of sorts, but it does not seem to be used to the extent that it is in daily life - only for entertainment and shopping.
Well, now that I think about it, I guess that from the viewpoint of when it was written in the early 90s, Wallace's world actually does not seem like such a far-fetched vision of the 21st century. Maybe it only seems like an "alternate univere" because i'm looking at it from within the 21st century.
Ami wrote: "I don't think Mario is a figment of Hal's mind unless you consider Moms to be also. Wallace, while describing Avril's thoughts on being a concerned but unsmothering single parent also makes reference to her children when she says she knows when to let go somewhat and let the two high functioning of her three sons make their own possible mistakes...(50)"Thanks, Ami. I remember reading that part now.
Ami wrote: "After Hal was taken to the emergency room, he tells us he will be held for as long as he does not answer any questions, and then, when he does finally respond, he ends up finally sedated; so it will be inversion of standard travel, the ambulance and ER: e the journey first, then depart. I found this to be a rather poignant line. There's something about it, I can't put my finger on it, but it has resonated with me."Thanks for bringing up this part, Ami. I agree, there is something there that I can't quite comprehend but it seems important. I remember reading that section over again a couple of times.
John wrote: "Cleo wrote: "What are examples of things that you're noticing that are so different from the present?"The biggest one is probably that the U.S. and Canada have been merged. If the story takes pla..."
Well, now that I think about it, I guess that from the viewpoint of when it was written in the early 90s, Wallace's world actually does not seem like such a far-fetched vision of the 21st century.
I agree with you completely in the above statement. I didn't think it took place in an alternate universe at all, but in the future. Wallace is definitely ahead of his time... This interlace library of sorts, is it not comparable to our modern day Netflix? Also, the teleporter technology is more of an amalgam of systems, it does not seem very cutting edge to me, or as futuristic as I think Wallace could have made it? I have a hard time wrapping my head around an alternative universe, but I also had a hard time with "Bizarro World" in Seinfeld.
I voted for this book so I'm supposed to participate. However, I'm not sure if I'll go on. I finished this week's selection and pretentious is the word that keeps floating around in my head. I'm no stranger to long books, difficult books, or books that don't seem to make sense (Garcia-Marquez and Murakami come to mind for that last one) but I'm not sure I can get through this one.I'll give it one more week and see how I feel after the next section. I actually like Hal.
John wrote: "Ami wrote: "I'm interested in why you think aspects of this book take place in another universe versus maybe in just the future? If you could expand on this a bit, thank you. "
My reasoning is th..."
John, as I continue reading I'm beginning to feel this novel is Also an ode to tennis.! Although Venus didn't play any major tournaments until later (after 1996) I would speculate with the private tennis community, they knew she was going to be a force to be reckoned with before she made it out in the scene. I think Wallace May have been privy to the tennis gossip too.
"3. Why is the episode with Hal eating mold significant or is it significant?" It's the first (in Hal's life, the second in the book) time that Hal's found himself at the center of a large, bewildering situation that may not have been of his own choosing, and whose outcome he certainly could not have foreseen. And Hal as initiator/victim is a figure we'll see throughout the work.
Among the many unfortunate aspects of DFW's suicide is that we, as his reading public, are left to reconstruct him based only on what he's written, a number of interviews and reams upon reams of analysis just like this.
Cast against the backdrop of DFW's suicide it's both tempting and destructive to read IJ as an extended suicide note/"cry for help".
But if we accept in some part the idea that any book is an author's tool to explore ideas/issues/problems that he/she is dealing with, I think a couple of themes arise:
Bewildered prodigy - Hal is brilliant at tennis; DFW was identified early on as an "important voice"; the celebrity-making mechanism of athletics/publishing catapults raw talent out into an adoring, frenzied court.
Distant, disconnected and protected by words - Hal/DFW are both children of a cusp time ... a period in history where the nature of communication, information and relationship is being radically re-structured. By focusing in on the meaning of words and their relationship to reality, Hal remains safe within a familiar, albeit suffocating, headspace.
Like I said, it's too tempting and simplistic to try and turn Jest into an extended autobiography. But writers write to tell a story that they ultimately have some deeper relationship with than simply agreeing to be narrators.
Kathy wrote: "I voted for this book so I'm supposed to participate. However, I'm not sure if I'll go on. I finished this week's selection and pretentious is the word that keeps floating around in my head. I'm no..."I won't try to convince you that IJ isn't pretentious. In fact, any book that's had this much "holy crap you've GOT to read this" hung on it is coming out of the gate lame in one ankle.
What "forced" me to stay committed to reading it through the first two hundred pages (per Infinite Summer's advice found here --> http://infinitesummer.org/archives/215 ) was, actually, the most pretentious possible part of the novel ... the footnotes. I mean come on. What kind of novel appropriates a reference device from non-fiction, largely academic writing in order to tell a story? I saw those and knew this was one of those books that I had to read just to see if it lived up to the hype.
Maybe it could have stood substantial edits. But if it had, would we still have gotten the meandering set pieces (Erdedy, for example) that make this thing so freaking enjoyable?
John wrote: "Oh, one more question for the group: It seems like Wallace has several acronyms that may or may not have other meanings? For example, O.N.A.N. is obviously a biblical reference, probably meant to b..."John, the acronyms are driving me nuts! I'm not using supplemental info other than the footnotes and am having trouble trying to figure them all out... How are you going about this? So far, I don't see any coincidences, there seems to be a reason for everything...I too noticed E.T.A. ( the school and arrival time), but am at a loss as far as understanding the relationship as of yet.
Okay, I just finished the last page of this section today, and I'm trying to wrap my brain around everything. Ami - I didn't remember that part. Not surprising, considering how crazy the whole thing is. :) I still think there is something uniquely special about Mario, some mystery we'll discover later.
1. To be honest, I didn't even register the mention of Serena Williams. My family likes tennis, my sister even won state championship for doubles one year, but I don't care at all about sports. It's not that surprising I didn't pay attention to that.
I didn't really consider it as an alternative universe, as much as sometime in the future.
2. Hmmm...it was hard just to keep them all straight. (Thanks for posting your notes John!) I would have to echo Linda's answer. Erdedy was the first answer that came to mind. I also found that section the most easy to read and understand. I've never done drugs, but I've known people that are addicted. In my continual quest to lose some weight, I sometimes feel the way that Erdedy did - I feel optimistic and ready to finally eat healthier, but then I always justify that extra bowl of ice cream and tell myself I'll do better next time. Not that I think me needing to lose a few pounds is anything like being addicted to drugs.
3. I took the mold story as more of a "kids will eat anything" story. I taught first grade for 5 years and have seen proof of this. I thought the incident was related to introduce more about the Moms than about Hal.
4. I know a lot people consider this book humorous, but so far I have found nothing outrageously funny. There are a few amusing lines, (love that it's Year of the Adult Depend Undergarment) but nothing that makes me laugh out loud. It's more disturbing than funny.
6. The most challenging aspect for me is the terminology, like the acronyms. I have a hard time figuring out what it means. (Even though I'm using all my best "context clues" like I teach my 4th graders to use!)
I've finished the first weeks reading and I have to say I'm really enjoying the book so far. I'm using most of the online supports suggested and even ordered the poster with all the characters named in the book. The comments here and in the footnotes thread have been incredibly helpful too. I look forward to this journey with all of you. And to much celebrating in February! On to week 2...
I haven't had a chance to go through everybody's comments. I will try later, but I'm hoping I'm not repeating anything.The very first thing I noticed here, seeing as it was in the first paragraph, was that he went into the room with Uncle Charles and Mr. de Lint. There is actually a well known and very prolific fantasy author named Charles de Lint. His web page says that he is the "modern master of urban fantasy". Because he's such a prolific writer, I haven't been able to figure out what the significance is. This book is written in a very deliberate fashion and the names are sort of mashed together as Uncle Charles, Mr. de Lint, so I'm reasonably sure this is not a coincidence. I just can't figure out the significance.
I was especially interested in Ami's comment about DFW committing suicide. One of the things I noticed when I was reading Orin's piece is that he appeared to suffer from a severe clinical depression. Here are some of the things I noticed:
morning is the soul's light. The day's worst time psychically
these darkest mornings start days that Orin can't even bring himself for hours to think about how he'll get through the day. These worst mornings with cold floors and hot windows and merciless light - the soul's certainty that the day will have to be not traversed but sort of climbed, vertically, and then that going to sleep again at the end of it will be like falling, again, off something tall and sheer.
These things caught my attention the first time and made me wonder if DFW suffered from severe depression because his writing so perfectly describes it. People who try to write about someone suffering from depression that don't suffer from it themselves would usually miss the mark on something like this. Both the feeling of vertically climbing through the day and the feeling of falling when it's time to go to sleep inspired a visceral reaction from me. Especially the going to sleep part. Most people would think that going to sleep offers surcease from the depression, and it does to a certain extent, but there's that horrible hopeless feeling of knowing that you have to do it all over again the next day. I believe this is what Orin means by falling.
Also, this helped explain some of Erdedy's binge behavior. I'm not necessarily saying that Erdedy was depressed, but in a clinical depression there's sometimes an overpowering need to punish yourself. Doing something self-destructive that you love/hate and doing it to such an extreme, along with the shame and self-loathing, is something that happens with depression. This cyclical pattern would also explain the way he stops, tells someone to never sell to him again, and then binges again. This is actually very typical behavior during a depressive episode.
I get the feeling that DFW was using his own experiences to fuel pieces of these characters.
I really struggled with the stream of consciousness scenes with Erdedy, Wardine, and Orin. They made me feel like I was going mad. After the one with Erdedy, I actually had to put the book down and go read something fluffy and fun because I was so agitated.
Orin was probably the character I identified with most. Especially the way he was talking about the flying roaches. The parishes around N.O. had been having a spate or outbreak of a certain Latin-origin breed of sinister tropical flying roaches, that were small and timid but could f**king fly
I laughed so hard at this. I have a serious phobia of grasshoppers, I think because they can turn into locusts. I actually got trapped outside my house one time for 15 minutes because there were three grasshoppers on my porch and I couldn't get myself to go past them. So I really GET this freak out.
I also looked up Ami's reference to the Beatles song. Orin says "I want to tell you. My head is filled with things to say". These are lyrics directly from the song. Also, Hal's response "I don't mind. I could wait forever." is also from that song. I'm not the best at analyzing lyrics or poems, in fact I'm fairly bad at it, but when I read the lyrics to the song it seemed that the song was about being unable to express yourself so nobody ever truly knows you. Hence Hal's comment of "No one you know, I don't think." when Mario asks him who was on the phone. This was my interpretation of the song once I read the lyrics.
I loved Web's comment about the footnotes! It's such an odd thing to put in there. It is a pain to flip back and forth, but there is some humor in having them in there.
I find it interesting that Hal is the most capable of expressing himself externally, but he's apparently incomprehensible to other people. That opening scene was so bizarre. I found it quite funny too. If it had been a traditional seizure it definitely would not have been funny. But everybody's over the top reactions were like he was dancing around naked summoning demons while committing an animal sacrifice. It was outrageous and hilarious. I'm finding that I really enjoy Hal's character.
I have three more pages to go and then I'm going to take a few thousand hours to read everyone's comments.
Ami wrote: "John, the acronyms are driving me nuts! I'm not using supplemental info other than the footnotes and am having trouble trying to figure them all out... How are you going about this?"I just came home from the store with a small separate journal to use. One page is going to be devoted to writing down all the acronyms I come across! Except for the ones that are used often, like E.T.A., I'm struggling at remembering them all.
Ami, I'm not using any supplemental material either. I think sometimes an acronym is used before it's actually spelled out in the text or footnote of what it stands for.
Sarah wrote: "The very first thing I noticed here, seeing as it was in the first paragraph, was that he went into the room with Uncle Charles and Mr. de Lint. There is actually a well known and very prolific fantasy author named Charles de Lint."I thought there was something to that name! The name Charles de Lint came to my mind, but then I realized, no, it's Charles Tavis and Aubrey de Lint. I didn't really know who Charles de Lint was, but must have picked up his name and stored it away subconsciously at some point!
Great insights Sarah! I will definitely have to look up that Beatles song.Oh yeah, I totally forgot to mention that description of how in New Orleans there had been cases of cockroaches feeding on the mucus from babies' eyes and blinding them. How horrifying!
Sarah wrote: "I also looked up Ami's reference to the Beatles song. Orin says "I want to tell you. My head is filled with things to say". These are lyrics directly from the song. Also, Hal's response "I don't mind. I could wait forever." is also from that song. I'm not the best at analyzing lyrics or poems, in fact I'm fairly bad at it, but when I read the lyrics to the song it seemed that the song was about being unable to express yourself so nobody ever truly knows you. Hence Hal's comment of "No one you know, I don't think." when Mario asks him who was on the phone. This was my interpretation of the song once I read the lyrics."Interesting analysis, Sarah, I like it. I'm going to have to look up those song lyrics.
Yeah, almost 100 pages of footnotes is insane. But so far I've really been enjoying them, it adds another layer to the entire novel that wouldn't otherwise be there. I've been reading a lot of classics lately that have plenty of footnotes just to explain a bit more of what is written for that time, so luckily flipping to the footnotes hasn't been annoying at all.
Sarah wrote: "I haven't had a chance to go through everybody's comments. I will try later, but I'm hoping I'm not repeating anything.The very first thing I noticed here, seeing as it was in the first paragrap..."
These things caught my attention the first time and made me wonder if DFW suffered from severe depression because his writing so perfectly describes it
In fact, he did, Sarah. Here is a link to an article discussing it...http://www.salon.com/2008/09/26/david_foster_wallace_2/
I am interested in finding out how Dads passed.
So glad you delved further into the Beatles song, you tied it together perfectly! It's intriguing as to what could be the possible reason for this disconnect between Orin and his two brothers , if there really is one, or why one does not exist between Hal and Mario?
I really struggled with the stream of consciousness scenes with Erdedy, Wardine, and Orin. They made me feel like I was going mad.
See, I actually enjoyed the process for both Wardine and Orin. Wardine because of Wallace's ability to capture the vernacular-I thought the change in pace was nice, especially after Erdedy's slow and completely mental sequence. I didn't think Orin's section was that bad either, he seems to be just as disturbed as the rest of his family, but has the ability to function alongside others in a productive manner. On the same page with you in regards to Erdedy, in fact, I too had to decompress after reading it.
I find it interesting that Hal is the most capable of expressing himself externally, but he's apparently incomprehensible to other people. That opening scene was so bizarre. I found it quite funny too.
I felt very guilty for finding his episode laughable, but it was Uncle Charles' account of the situation that had me rolling-He was hell bent on getting that kid admitted to the University; instead, he got him admitted to the emergency room. Good grief!
Ami wrote: "Sarah wrote: "I felt very guilty for finding his episode laughable, but it was Uncle Charles' account of the situation that had me rolling-He was hell bent on getting that kid admitted to the University; instead, he got him admitted to the emergency room. Good grief! ..."I know! I wasn't sure I really should be laughing but the reactions were absolutely priceless. What could someone do that would be so appalling that you would send them off to a mental institution because he opened his mouth?
By the way, that was a great catch on the Beatles song. I had never heard that one and immediately had to look it up! A Beatles song I don't know?
I had an easier time with Orin's POV than the others. I got his bizarre thinking process. It made sense to me.
I'm very puzzled about why Mario can understand Hal but nobody else seems to be able to.
What was with that weird past scene with Hal going to a professional conversationalist and realizing it was Himself? Then it was like Himself couldn't understand him. Also, in this scene Himself is saying he's 14, Hal says he's 11 and then later on he says he's 10.
I mentioned in an earlier post about a supposed obsession with suffocation so far, but I'm also noticing a trend with heads too. Wallace makes it a point to discuss the size of people's heads, digging up heads, decapitated heads and Jivaro shaman (who are known to have the ability to shrink the heads of their enemies.) How it all ties together, I'm still not sure, but here are some of the instances I made notes on...I noticed this first during the conversation between Hal and Himself (in disguise)...If I understood this passage correctly, Moms is giving Hal steroids which are chemically organized very similarly to a supplement derived from a certain organic testosterone regeneration compound distilled by the Jivaro shaman Himself is taking (30). I think this section, in particular, is a play on the word "head." Hal being given this substance to increase his memory capacity and Himself to alleviate a symptom of detoxing from alcoholism, a suffering from painful erection Priapistic-entertainment cartridge(31)? They are both attempting to increase the size of their "heads," one cerebral, the other phallic.
Next, we are introduced to Mario who is described to have a small hunched shape and big head(32).
Orin talks about a dream where he is bound to his mother's decapitated head (47).
There's even an instance where Wallace describes Donald Gately's almost perfectly square head, and how he used to amuse his friends when drunk by letting them open and close elevator doors on it (55).
Sarah wrote: " Also, in this scene Himself is saying he's 14, Hal says he's 11 and then later on he says he's 10. "This confused me at first too -- I had to reread it. Himself says Hal is 14, either because he's trying to fool Hal into thinking he's a stranger, or simply because he's not an attentive father.
Then Hal actually says he's *almost* 11. Which is, of course, 10.
Reading the Chunksters
Books mentioned in this topic
Girl With Curious Hair (other topics)Hamlet (other topics)
Stuck in Neutral (other topics)
The Metamorphosis (other topics)
John, to be fair, Paula was trying to answer the question I asked. As you mentioned once quoting me, questions are spoilers themselves, so answering a question that implies a speculative answer is not a spoiler. I do not know anything about mold and its significance in the novel, but the episode was emotionally significant for me, and that is why I asked this question. I do not know whether by chance I actually unearthed something that is important, or whether it is one of those funny episode that are memorable.
I think Paula was trying to play according to the rules of the game when she was trying to answer the questions.
P.S. I once commented with the biggest spoiler in my life when I disclosed the death of the main character. It only happened because I was commenting on the thread of the previous week as other people were behind and were trying to catch up, and I inadvertently 'spoiled' them the pleasure of witnessing the death of the major character.
Things happen. Let us try to avoid spoilers in future or hide them as speculations.
I can also see your sides of the story and hopefully not much was revealed. Besides, the book is so complex that I had to return back to some of the pages to verify what people were commenting about. I am not sure that I can retain everything in my head, and some comments are not spoilers here, but I did view them as spoilers because small things just slip out of my mind.
PPS. I hope I have comforted both sides:-) Now, guys, if you are not sure about something, use the spoiler hypertext function. I also hope this was the final post about spoilers.
BTW, I have a niggling sensation that Wallace actually meant us to have a conversation about spoilers and whether it happened already or will happen again :-) A literary Schrodinger cat.
PPPS. Now, shifting the tonality of this discussion, and using this part only, do you think that Wallace could be called a wordsmith? if yes, please list examples and quotes.