Kristin Lavransdatter by Sigrid Undset (dely, Paula, Terri, Chrissie and Dhanaraj)

[[deleted user]]

I see in the future (view spoiler)[ Kristin cheating on Erlend. I don't remember in which chapter some characters are introduced, so I won't make names.
Well, I can also obviously see Erlend cheating on her, but it won't come as a shock considering that's pretty much his m.o.! (hide spoiler)]

[dely]

Giorgia wrote: "I see in the future ..."


What does m.o. mean?

[dely]

I have finished part 1 of book 2.
It is getting better, it means the writing style is more flowing, there are less "strange" things and the main characters behave finally in a decent way. I don't know if this depends on the translation or on the author.
Finally I can understand Kristin's spiritual struggle. It is described very well in the second half of the first part (in my edition part 4), above all in the last chapters. There is a little bit too much religion for my tastes but it doesn't matter, it isn't that annoying.

There is one thing I'm not able to understand very well, I need that someone explains it to me. No spoilers, it has to do with Catholicism. What does it means that "the sins of the parents fall upon the children"? I understand what it literally means but I don't understand why children should pay for the parent's sins.

[[deleted user]]

dely wrote: "Giorgia wrote: "I see in the future ..."


What does m.o. mean?"

Sorry, modus operandi!


dely wrote: ....What does it means that "the sins of the parents fall upon the children"? I understand what it literally means but I don't understand why children should pay for the parent's sins.

I think it all goes back to Adam and Eva and the original sin.

[Dhanaraj]

Catholic theology believes that the Original Sin (the first disobedience of the first parents of the Divine commandment) is passed on to the children. And baptism is a sign that the sin is washed and the child is born anew in Christ (the one who saved humankind). This is one explanation.

There is also a Jewish (Biblical) interpretation to it. At times, to explain the sufferings of the innocent it was thought to the punishment for the sins of his/her ancestors. It was a way to explain the innocent suffering. But later (much later) this was not much encouraged. But when it was present, its presence was strong. In Hindu philosophical terms it is something similar to Karma. You suffer now for the past Karma.

[dely]

Thanks for the explanation!

[dely]

I've finished chapter 4 of part 2 Husaby of book 2 The Wife.

As I said earlier, there is a lot of religion in this part. In chapter 2, part 2, book 2 we find this sentence: " Who will be so foolish to renounce those sufferings and those pains that will lead us to the Well Beloved?"
I wanted to talk about some saints or beatified persons and their martyrdom. As we know in Catholicism (I don't know if also in other Christian religions) the sufferings people must bear are considered like blessings from God and faithful people accept them. But sometimes very devoted people look for sufferings; I don't want to talk about the Flagellants and physical sufferings. In chapter 3 (part 2, books 2), for example, Kristin (view spoiler)[licks the bleary eyes of his son (hide spoiler)] (it isn't a huge spoiler so who wants can read it). But I have also heard about beatified people or saints that drank the water after washing the lepers; someone else drank the urine of sick people and so on. Why do they do this? Why do they look for more sufferings? And is it true that God accepts such things so that devoted people can have a place near him? In my opinion he should be angry because his sons endanger their lives as if it would be without importance; if life is a gift from God shouldn't faithful people respect it much more? All this goes beyond my comprehension. Life can be full of pains and sufferings and it's ok to accept them with faith but why should people look for more suffering above all disgusting ones? I found the scene with Kristin, the one in the spoiler tags, really disgusting and her behavior was the one of an animal, they behave like this with their puppies. She could have helped the son with some mallow or another therapeutic plant.

[[deleted user]]

Oh... gross!

I've been super busy this week and I didn't manage to read much (and actually Kristin has spent the whole week resting in my bag). I do not mind spoilers and, even if I can't properly comment at this time, I am super interested in reading other people reactions to the book.

[Dhanaraj]

@ dely: It might sound like a defense. But then, it is just an explanation. The spirituality takes a special colour in each century. It depends also on the scientific background and cultural understandings and spiritual explanations. About the vents you mentioned, I have heard such stories from two saints - St. Therese of Child Jesus and St. Catherine of Siena. Based on that reading, I can say that it was an aspect of spirituality of those times. The saints wanted to be faithful to their calling as true disciples of Jesus following his commandments of love. They saw the sick and lepers as 'Jesus incarnate' in their times (each one is made in the image of God; and moreover in New Testament Jesus commanded that whatever one has done for the least of the brothers is equal to doing it to himself). Their initial revulsion to go near such patients was seen as a great block to be a disciple. To overcome such revulsion, the method found to be very useful was to drink the water with which the wound was cleaned. Of course, God never wanted them to do it like that. It was man's way of interpreting God's commandment in a given situation.

[dely]

Thanks again for explanation. I understand what you say but it is so difficult to accept something like this also if it was done to follow a commandment.
The sense of sacrifice isn't always easy to understand or accept and perhaps everyone of us has a different way of considering it. Or perhaps all those things weren't sacrifices but pleasant things for the Saints. I don't know, but I'm having a hard time with this book because I don't agree with most of the things that are written.

[Dhanaraj]

dely wrote: "Thanks again for explanation. I understand what you say but it is so difficult to accept something like this also if it was done to follow a commandment.
The sense of sacrifice isn't always easy to..."

Oh! Mi dispiace! I am really sorry.

[dely]

Dhanaraj wrote: "Oh! Mi dispiace! I am really sorry."

I will however finish the book, at least I will try, hoping it gets better but I have low hopes. It isn't Christian literature, it seems Catholic propaganda; there isn't a spiritual struggle or a research of moral values that could fit with every human being, it seems proselytism of things I don't share. Every 5 pages Kristin is always weeping because she thinks to have sinned so in the book we find also the importance of confession: I hate it when someone always thinks to have sinned and I don't believe in confession so it's really hard to read what a big importance are given to these things. But there is a lot more, it talks exactly about all those things of Catholicism that I don't like and don't share.

[dely]

I was thinking about what I wrote yesterday: to me it seems Catholic propaganda but of course nobody forced me to read this book and I couldn't know there was so much religion in it (I thought there was more spirituality and not Catholic teachings). I'm sure that Catholics will love it; also people who perhaps have a weak faith could find it helpful to find again the "right path" reinforcing their faith.

[Dhanaraj]

dely wrote: "I was thinking about what I wrote yesterday: to me it seems Catholic propaganda but of course nobody forced me to read this book and I couldn't know there was so much religion in it (I thought ther..."

Interesting........

[[deleted user]]

dely wrote: "I was thinking about what I wrote yesterday: to me it seems Catholic propaganda but of course nobody forced me to read this book and I couldn't know there was so much religion in it (I thought ther..."

I don't perceive a strong catholic propaganda (YET); To me it feels like religion is such a strong part of those people lives that it can't not be mentioned, that it is important to understand them.
This however might change in a few chapters.

[dely]

Giorgia wrote: "I don't perceive a strong catholic propaganda (YET); To me it feels like religion is such a strong part of those people lives that it can't not be mentioned, that it is important to understand them.
This however might change in a few chapters. "

Perhaps it's because I'm more sensible to certain topics I don't share so it seems to me that there is too much of them. I think it was the author's intention to add so much about it, it is the main theme of the book. In my opinion the religious parts in this book overshadow everything else, also the humanity of the characters that makes them seem real. In fact, I'm liking only the parts in which I see the human side of the characters but there are only a few of such parts (and also very short) and then arrive again the religious thoughts. I try to explain better: when they have a problem and start a introspection, everything ends again in religion as if the solution would be only there.

[dely]

I have also finished the second book, The Wife and in a few pages I will finish the first part of book 3, The Cross.

I think the religious part is everywhere but in the second part of book 2 it was really prevalent. In the third part of book 2 are more historical facts and we find them again in the third book. I don't understand them very well because it is as if some parts are missing or not said by the author because the reader should already know them. This happens also when a character is suddenly angry or offended by something and the author doesn't explain why because the reader should read in the character's mind.
I don't care anymore to understand, I want only finish this book as soon as possible. I have also enough of all the names with written "son of ...". I can't remember them all (and if there are two characters with the same name, or a very similar name, the reader should remember the name of the fathers to know who they are) and it is difficult to remember minor characters we have found previously and now the author doesn't add anything to help the reader to remember who they were.

[[deleted user]]

The names! How I hate when everyone has very similar names. It's the reason why I can't ( and won't) ever read War and Peace to the end. I get lost.

I renewed the loan at the library for another month, since I'm going to take my time with Kristin. I want to know how it ends and so I can't give up!

[dely]

Giorgia wrote: "The names! How I hate when everyone has very similar names. It's the reason why I can't ( and won't) ever read War and Peace to the end. I get lost.

I renewed the loan at the library for another ..."

I've read War and Peace and other Russian books but I've never had all these problems with names. I have really enough that every name is followed by "son/daughter of ..."; I have enough that there aren't dates but everything happens in the day of some Saint and that there isn't a list of these days; I have enough of many things in this book.

[[deleted user]]

The Lady of Husaby > V Husaby > IV (view spoiler)[ I had no doubt Kristin's children would be spoiled rotten. (hide spoiler)]

I have a question that I hope someone can answer. It's not crucial to the plot, it's just a historical matter, so I don't think it calls for a spoiler button.
At some point there's a mention of King Magnus and of a sin he has that is so terrible that christians shouldn't even talk about it. Something that people blame on the influence of his teacher.
... I think it's easier for me to just copy it as it is in the book, since both dely and Dhanaraj speak italian >> Sebbene Magnus fosse ancora un fanciullo, era tuttavia affetto da un vizio di cui non è lecito parlare tra cristiani. Un tutore svedese che aveva l'incarico di insegnargli a leggere, gli aveva fatto girare la testa a tal punto che il re si era incamminato su una brutta strada.

Do you have any clue as to what this vice could be?
I looked up King Magnus on wikipedia and I am now even more confused since he is known as King Magnus "the good".

[dely]

Giorgia wrote: "The Lady of Husaby > V Husaby > IV [spoilers removed]

I have a question that I hope someone can answer. It's not crucial to the plot, it's just a historical matter, so I don't think it calls for ..."

I understood he had some homosexual vice.

I couldn't find a lot about Norwegian history on the internet. I've looked for King Magnus The Good but he lived in the 11th century; isn't the book set in the 14th century?

[[deleted user]]

Well, I think that's him because his father is saint Olaf and his mother married a sweyn. ..svein. ... well, a man who was despised in norway and they ruled together Denmark. and magnus became king at 11. these details seemed to fit with what I gathered from the book. as for the time Kristin is set... I have no idea.

[[deleted user]]

No. not him. his mother is called alfhild.

[[deleted user]]

and you are absolutely right, Kristin is set in the 14th century!

[dely]

We must wait for Dhanaraj who has the only good edition with an introduction! Perhaps in this edition there are more details for the historical background.

[[deleted user]]

sorry for these many posts but I can't edit from my phone.
the magnus in question is magnus the VII , known as "the caresser". his mother is ingeborg, who remarried a knut in Denmark. the vice he was accused of was definitely homosexuality.
thanks dely!

[dely]

Giorgia wrote: "sorry for these many posts but I can't edit from my phone.
the magnus in question is magnus the VII , known as "the caresser". his mother is ingeborg, who remarried a knut in Denmark. the vice h..."

Don't worry about the many posts!
I will look for this Magnus VII. When I have looked for some history about Norway I couldn't find anything about the Middle Ages. Perhaps I would have had more luck if I had looked for the single historical characters but it wasn't easy to understand who they were because there aren't a lot of details about them in the book. Undset has written everything thinking people know everything and everyone about Norwegian history.

[Dhanaraj]

I tried to locate the sentence that you mentioned in my book. But it was very difficult to find. May be, the break up of chapters is differently done. I am not sure. When I come across, I will let you know. For the time being, I cannot help. I am sorry.

[Dhanaraj]

Here is an interesting article in WIKI on the king spoken in the book. Check this out and you get an idea as to what vice it might have been. Check specially the BIOGRAPHY section and very specially EVALUATION OF HIS REIGN section.

The link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_I...

[[deleted user]]

" how can a man impose his will on his wife if, to respect family and conventions, he always has to refrain himself from beating her?"
how can he indeed!?!?!!!

can you guess whose thought this is?

[[deleted user]]

ps- Dhanaraj, thank you for the links!!

[[deleted user]]

this is no love story, this is an abusive relationship, where the husband (view spoiler)[wishes he could beat the crap out of his wife, "until she becomes sweet and docile". (hide spoiler)]
ahhhh! I'm so angry. I am seriously contemplating quitting this book.

And again (view spoiler)[ " he had lived with her like a saint" . Like a saint!!!? You have more children than I can remember! (hide spoiler)]

[[deleted user]]

(view spoiler)[ poor Erlend, you see, he MUST cheat on Kristin because she's so mean to him. boo-hoo!
and by the way, what a slut the woman he has an affair with is. How can she cheat on her old and sick husband? Poor man, his wife is crazy and shameless. But of course, Erlend is not guilty of anything because there's no way he was the first she had had an affair with, he's cool. THIS MAN!
See, I hope this is a truly catholic novel because if there's one thing catholics are good at, it's condemning people to hell. Raise hell, Undset, don't disappoint me. (hide spoiler)]

[dely]

Giorgia wrote: "" how can a man impose his will on his wife if, to respect family and conventions, he always has to refrain himself from beating her?"
how can he indeed!?!?!!!

can you guess whose thought this is?"

Lol, I know who said it. I refrained to be scandalized because I know it is set in the Middle Ages but I didn't like to read that sentence.

[dely]

Giorgia wrote: "spoiler"

Kristin is an arrogant and selfish person, all has to go following her will and mood; she is also stubborn and doesn't try to change her behaving. But she (or the author) hides everything with her belief and faith. She does something wrong? She runs to confess herself instead of trying to change her behavior.
Yes, it is very catholic, there is a lot of proselytism.

[[deleted user]]

I've finished the second book "The mistress of Husaby" and I've realised that I'm only halfway through the book.
Considering that this is Kristin Lavransdatter in English > "All my days I have longed equally to travel the right road and to take my own errant path." ( beautiful, isn't it!?) I'll try to get a copy of the translation that was recomended by Dhanaraj

[dely]

Giorgia wrote: "I've finished the second book "The mistress of Husaby" and I've realised that I'm only halfway through the book.
Considering that this is Kristin Lavransdatter in English > "All my days I have lon..."

Will you finish it in English?

[[deleted user]]

dely wrote: "Giorgia wrote: "I've finished the second book "The mistress of Husaby" and I've realised that I'm only halfway through the book.
Considering that this is Kristin Lavransdatter in English > "All my..."

If I can find it, yes :)

edit: on amazon there's an ebook edition at 5,40 €, but it's translated by Charles Archer. Do you guys know if it's any good?
Or this The Cross at 8,61€ - but I can't find out who's the translator.

[dely]

Giorgia wrote: "dely wrote: "Giorgia wrote: "I've finished the second book "The mistress of Husaby" and I've realised that I'm only halfway through the book.
Considering that this is Kristin Lavransdatter in Engl..."

I think the second one is the edition that has read Chrissie (she has read only the first volume) because it seems the same publisher: The Bridal Wreath: Kristin Lavransdatter, Vol 1 so it hasn't a good translation. Don't know about Charles Archer. You could use the new feature Q&A in the book page to ask something to the community.

[[deleted user]]

The cross > honour among kin > I > (view spoiler)[ Simon ! How can you send your 15 - year old daughter to live with Kristin and Erlend! The first will teach her that you can disobey you parents, do anything you want and pout if you don't get it and Erlend will probably take her virginity in the nearest barn. (hide spoiler)]

[dely]

Giorgia wrote: "The cross > honour among kin > I > [spoilers removed]"

I think both were considered by Simon as good, admirable and intelligent people. Never forget that the story is set in the Middle Ages; this helps a little bit to hate less and understand the characters and their behavior.

[[deleted user]]

You're right, at this point I should stop complaining about the characters I don't like because they're not going to change

[dely]

There was only one short part I really liked in the book and I think you have already read it: (view spoiler)[when Kristin saves Simon's son; when she goes out at night, to the cemetery to take the soil and grass to cover the child. I liked this "dive" in superstition and also because I could see another side of Kristin, perhaps a more human and real side. (hide spoiler)]

[[deleted user]]

dely wrote: "There was only one short part I really liked in the book and I think you have already read it: [spoilers removed]"

I don't think I've read this yet. I don't recall this anyway.

[dely]

Giorgia wrote: "dely wrote: "There was only one short part I really liked in the book and I think you have already read it: [spoilers removed]"

I don't think I've read this yet. I don't recall this anyway."

I was sure my spoiler happened before your spoiler! I'm sorry if I've spoiled you something.

[[deleted user]]

dely wrote: "Giorgia wrote: "dely wrote: "There was only one short part I really liked in the book and I think you have already read it: [spoilers removed]"

I don't think I've read this yet. I don't recall thi..."

Don't worry, it was not a big spoiler. I've just reached the part where (view spoiler)[ Kristin has been called to Simon's house to try saving his son. (hide spoiler)] Besides, at this point I really don't mind spoilers.