What do you think of these words?

[Amy]

So the words I have in mind are Sex, Making Love, Celibacy and Abstinence.

Why these four? Well, I read about those in my last book about Asexuality. We all know what all these mean. But how do they make you feel? (Now don't think anything wrong about me, it's just a kinda awkward about it. I really am an ace)

So lets start with sex. I don't really have much to say to this word, it just makes me feel odd. It sounds odd and I can be uncomfortable saying it.
But now, the word 'Make love'. I think that's a horrible word. It makes it look as if Sex=Love. As if there cannot be love without sex. Or that love comes only when you have sex.

Celibacy and abstinence. To me I have the first linked with religion. Not that I have anything against religion, but this is kinda silly to me. And it's mostly because the author tried to 'force' them onto others. That simply who doesn't have sex must be celibate and/or abstinence. Personally I felt insulted. I mean, there are people who didn't make a choice, and so it can hardly apply to them. Like I simply don't care. I didn't make a choice, I simply don't care about sex. But anyway, I find them silly, because celibacy is usually linked with religion. No one usually says they are, or even do. Same with abstinence. I mean, some people do that, but others not really, they just wait for someone special, than just go from bed to bed.

If this is a weird and twisted conversation, please, be direct. Don't beat around the bush, tell me directly XD

[Kaje]

I'm probably a lot older, so maybe things resonate differently.

I think sex is a positive, and a negative. A natural, pleasurable activity when done between two people who at least like each other, but also an obsession for some, a societal overdose, and a driving force for evil tangled with lust and power (read about sex trafficking.) So it's a word that lives among other words and takes shades of meaning from its context.

Making love is much more narrow, and what sex is at its best, but not something it has to be every time. A goal, a desire, and a hope.

Celibacy to me doesn't have to be religious. Neither does abstinence, and of the two I prefer the word celibacy.

"Abstinence" is a sacrifice - refraining from something that is desired for what may be good reasons, but which still admit the desire is there to be denied by force of will.

"Celibacy" is a choice. Again, there may be reasons, but to me this word is more positive - you might be celibate because you don't want sex, perhaps not now, perhaps not ever, or until something changes. There is not the same yearning against desire in it to me.

[Amy]

I know about the trafficking. A sad part of my countries history. It'S been a big theme in the news.
Yes, very negative sometimes. It'S so much encouraged that the whole society is totally sex crazed. Encouraged in a bad way.

I see it as a narrow in the sense of misconception. But that is just me. I was interested how other see it.

Yes, I see your point. I guess I have a problem with people "assuming".

[Cheryl]

I agree that people sometimes say 'making love' when they mean something much more casual, and it bothers me. Making love should be special, between people who are at least good friends and open to love.

Sex is neutral to me. Probably because I, too, am older. I've just seen the word so often, in so many different contexts, I can't judge it as a word unto itself.

My pet peeve is 'sleeping with.' Very seldom do the people who 'sleep together' actually get any sleep - in fact, seldom are they together for long enough to sleep! And the reverse is that actually sleeping together can be very innocent and nice.

I agree with Kaje exactly about what the words celibate and abstinent imply.

Yes, usually the word 'celibate' is chosen when we talk about (for example) Catholic priests. I don't have a big problem with this... except when they break their vows and abuse children, of course. But that's the exception, so, usually, I figure, that's their choice. Some find it easier, some fight desire, doesn't matter to me.

I definitely do not have a problem with people who have low libidos, or who choose to save themselves for marriage, or who just aren't ready for whatever reason, or who are taking a break for whatever reason. It's a personal choice, and if it makes you feel better inside yourself, that's all that matters.

I only would have one concern, if someone who identifies as asexual were talking directly to me. I'd ask that person if there was something about sex that made them feel scared. If so, I'd encourage them to get good help, whatever kind would best fit their situation.

[Kaje]

It's important not to assume that being asexual is a problem or something to be fixed. Just like being gay is not something to be fixed. Desire goes where it will. Some people just have no real interest in sex. That doesn't necessarily imply fear or a bad past experience or a problem with physical response. It may just be no interest.

There may be people who do use the term asexual when they actually feel like sex is too hard to cope with, not that they have no interest. And some women (and occasionally men) have a lot of trouble reaching orgasm, and it can be hard to have an interest in sex if it really doesn't feel good. So occasionally there may be a situation where the idea of help is valuable. That's a misuse of the term "asexual" though.

[Zefi]

I know exactly of such a case as Kaje describes above, a friend of mine who is trans identified as asexual for periods of time since adolescence because he felt his desire was decreased by his bodily insecurity.
That being said, to identify as asexual for periods of time or throughout your life should not imply impairment.

Sex to me is usually a good word, associated with pleasure and good feelings and exploration and meeting people (yes I have made friends or met people due to sexual attraction!) - it also has some discursive and critical connotations for me, when I see it as part of the construction of sexuality, identity, politics, society, etc.

Making love carries the weird burden that sex without love is not that good so we should give sex with love another name to redeem ourselves. I admit I have felt the need to differentiate between the deepest and strongest sexual encounters vs. the others, but using this phrase feels weird :/

Abstinence always brings to my mind planned parenthood, contraception and priests. It reminds you someone is forcing themselves for what seems to me not a very good reason, if that reason is for example to stay 'pure'.

Celibacy has better connotations because it implies probably that there is not something forced - it is a choice one feels comfortable with and that is nice :)

[Rez]

For me, 'sex' is a highly contextual word so my feelings towards just the one word is fairly ambiguous; a very similar emotion to what most people get when you say 'car'. It can be grasped as a concept, but without further details or context, it has no real emotional value. Add context like 'passionate sex' or 'sex trafficking' and then there is a feeling.

'Making love,' I think, is something that transcends the physical act and may not even necessarily be sexual. There is something raw, something emotional about making love that goes beyond great sex. It is unfortunate that the phrase sometimes gets used to simply refer to sex in slightly more politically correct words.

My views of abstinence and celibacy are more in line with Amy's and opposite Zefi's.

Celibacy has an air of indoctrination in my mind; like something you're doing because of dogma, habit, or tradition rather than having an intrapersonal rational. As an aside, if in a conversation with someone and they say that they are celibate, I usually end up grilling that person on the subject much more than I would if the person had said asexual or abstinent.

Abstinence is something I value much more highly. To me, it implies the person has the capability and opportunity to have something (usually sex, but can be applied to other things) but instead chooses not to for thoughtful, long-term reasons. What bugs me about this word is when people use it without those defining characteristics; not having sex for a week because your SO is on a business trip is not abstinence (lacks opportunity) and neither is a night off from sex because of a 'headache' (lacks long-term reason), nor authoritative restriction--parents, law, etc. (not a choice).

The term or duration also ties into what I think is the key difference between Celibacy and Abstinence. Abstinence, I think, has an end parameter set into it (no matter how ephemeral that definition may be, e.g. 'when something changes' or 'if I meet the right person') and celibacy does not have a distinctive end parameter.

So to answer a question that nobody asked, I think it could be possible to make love to someone and still be abstinent.

[Amy]

Zefi, I am Trans but I hadn't identified as Asexual until about a month ago. I thought about it a lot. Thought it might have been due to my situation, but then figured it doesn't. I have a datefriend but I don't long for sex with her. I don't think I'm attracted to her in that way.
And it doesn't mean only Trans people do it. Many healthy heterosexuals do also, and it's wrong. Asexual means no sexual attraction.

Cheryl, my datefriend told me she was aroused by me. I went cold. Apparently I was scared. I can't tell you exactly why, I don't know. But as Kaje said it's not something that has to be cured. It's simply the way we are.

[Zefi]

Indeed, I see nothing wrong or flawed about asexual identities and modes of desire or lack of them! And I just mentioned my trans friend as an example to what Kaje said, that sometime people assume asexual identities temporarily and for different reasons than downright indifference to sex.

Wonderful asexy people, go on being awesome :)

[Amy]

Zefi wrote: "Indeed, I see nothing wrong or flawed about asexual identities and modes of desire or lack of them! And I just mentioned my trans friend as an example to what Kaje said, that sometime people assume..."

No I understood that. I'm sorry if I made it seem otherwise.

But yes, people labeling themselves as Asexual out of different reasons is bad. It creates then misconceptions.

[Jo]

To me...

Sex is the physical act, and includes more than just intercourse.

Making love is sex combined with strong, loving feelings for one's partner (and can occur if you're just friends with the person, because friendship can be a strong loving feeling without actually *being* love, if that makes sense).

Celibacy is something long-term. Sometimes for religious or spiritual reasons, sometimes because one simply chooses not to have sex. And it isn't because of "shouldn't" or anything like that; it's just the choice the person has made.

Abstinence can overlap with celibacy, but to me, abstinence is usually more temporary, and isn't necessarily related to strong beliefs on someone's part but more to the idea that they "shouldn't" have sex until something specific occurs, like marriage. Once that occurs, abstinence ends.

Asexuality is NOT the same as not wanting to have sex. It is NOT the same as being "afraid" of sex because of trauma or other reasons. It's a sexual orientation like homosexuality, bisexuality, etc., and is very simply the absence of sexual attraction to others. People who are asexual may also be aromantic, i.e. not having romantic feelings for others, or they may be asexual but have romantic feelings for one or more genders. (Heteroromantic, homoromantic, biromantic, etc.)

Sometimes people do use "asexual" as a deflection when the reality is that they're afraid of sex for some reason. But generally, if someone says they're asexual, it's because they're asexual. It isn't something they need therapy for any more than someone who's gay needs therapy. It's just the way they're wired. Asking someone who says they're asexual if they're afraid of sex is, to me, as offensive as asking a gay man if he's afraid of women.

Sorry for being lecturey...I'm the parent of a 16-year-old ace daughter (at least, a daughter who says she has no interest in sex other than for conceiving children when she's older, and then only because it's the only way she knows of to have children other than adoption), so seeing anyone say they would ask an asexual person if they're afraid and would recommend therapy for them kind of hits one of my hot buttons.

[Amy]

And it's incredible what rubbish can people say about Asexuality. "It's just a phase. You just have to try it." And it gets far worse but I don't want to be vulgar.

But truth is we don't do it to be special. It's not a phase as is not homosexuality, heterosexuality, etc. We don't have try anything to know, as much as a heterosexual doesn't to knot he/she is straight.

[Cheryl]

Whoa.
Please, Jo, I'm feeling as if you're scolding me, and I don't appreciate it.

I said I'd ask, if I knew the person in real life and they were talking to me. I wouldn't ask a stranger, and I wouldn't push for therapy if they were comfortable with themselves, as Amy, for example, is making clear she is.

You're not the only one with relevant experience, you know?
Amy asked a question; I answered. My opinion, based on my experiences.
And what my experiences are is something I choose not to share.

[Stephen]

I've been lurking in this thread since it started and haven't posted a comment yet but I'd like to throw my two cents worth in now.

The topic was What do you think of these words? and the discussion has been interesting but words are imperfect devices to communicate and exchange ideas. But they're the best tools that we have.

But words become cheapened and dis-empowered with over familiarity and overuse. "Making love" is a great example of that. Folks often use it as just a less direct way of saying having sex. I used to be opposed to the use of the word "queer" but then "Queernation" advocated its use as a means to take away the word's sting.

Also, the connotations for words change over time and it's important that we continue to strive to understand the ideas being communicated through an imperfect vocabulary.

The first woman that I knew that was truly asexual used to claim that she was "no-mo-sexual" she'd had sex both with men and women and it had led her to swear off sex altogether. For her, that was a valid a choice as my preferring guys.

There's a great quote from The Killer Angels about how only a fool judges men as groups. No two things on earth are equal or have an equal chance, not a leaf nor a tree. There's many a man worse than me, and some better, but I don't think race or country matters a damn. What matters is justice.

I think that we should encourage and open exchange of ideas and be just in our opinions. It's much too easy to be misconstrued in our writings.

[Jo]

Cheryl, I'm sorry you feel scolded. I did not address you in my post. There are other participants in and readers of this thread, and I felt it appropriate to correct a misconception I've seen many people express. Your post put that misconception in my mind, but I was not responding directly to you, simply to the idea.

I am well aware that others have relevant experience, and I'm sorry you took my comment personally. It was not intended as such.

This is a discussion about what people think of certain words; I stated what I think of "asexual" and of people's misunderstandings of the term. As Kaje said, it's important not to make assumptions about people's sexual orientations or their reasons for identifying as they choose, and in my opinion, as I said, questioning someone about why they identify a certain way can be offensive. You--general you--are entitled to your opinion and are allowed to state it; in a public forum, others are also entitled to and allowed to state their opinions, which is what I chose to do.

[Kaje]

Hopefully we can all stay on the same page here - realizing that as we read and write LGBT YA we're trying to work with a mystery that has baffled the finest minds in the world : why do humans think and act the way we do? Sometimes we might not get the discussion perfectly smooth, but I think anyone who takes the time to join us here has good intentions and the desire to make things better.

[Jo]

I'm happy to edit any parts of my posts that come across as too harsh if you prefer, Kaje. I certainly didn't intend to be confrontational, but only to express my issue with a misconception I've heard far too often. (And I don't assume that Cheryl believes that misconception; as I said, her post put the thought in my mind, but I wasn't setting out to target her specifically in any way.)

[Cheryl]

Ok.

[Amy]

It is okay if the discussion goes in a little different direction, as long as it's nice. I like hearing opinions of other people.

And I agree with Jo. Sometimes it is necessary to say the whole definition. Especially when it's not so known as Asexuality. People have to understand that it is not really easy. Like for example I am asexual, I don't think of my datefriend in some ways, I don't understand many things about sex and arousal, or more how it feels like, or how someone else feel it. My datefriend is sexual, we have to simply talk through all of it so we both understand.

[Jay]

For me, straight sex, even great sex, is just sex, but really enjoying another guy, body and soul, turns sex into making love.

Abstinence leaves room for self-pleasuring; celibacy does not.

[Felix]

Sex: That depends on context. Sex trafficking? Gah, terrible. Passionate sex? Makes me feel weird and uncomfortable, bit I don't have a*problem* with it. Just sex, neutrally? Not much opinion.
Making love: I hate it. Definitely gives off vibes of you can't love someone without sex.
Celibacy:I don't like it because of the religious connotations and how it sounds like something someone decided upon or was forced upon them.
Abstinence: If you're talking about an allosexual person, it's fine and I have no problem with it. For an asexual person, very bad, because abstinence means the state of abstaining. Abstaining implies that you want it to begin with and also that you're suffering/making do with less than you want or should have. If someone calls me abstinent I'll be upset, to say the least, because I didn't choose it. I do not have sex because I don't want to, I'm not sexually attracted to people, and I'm happy with myself the way I am. I am not "abstaining", I'm just not doing it.

[Kaje]

That's the problem I have with "abstinence" as something other than a temporary choice by someone allosexual - it implies not doing something you want to do. Which is not the same as not wanting it in the first place.