TPW: Final thoughts?

[Liam]

Just finished The Poppy War, and wanted to kick off a conversation about what people's overall thoughts were about the book.

For my part, I *really* wanted to like this book. I loved the wuxia aesthetic, the magic system, and many of the characters. However, as I progressed through the book I found myself oscillating hot-and-cold on it in may ways. Parts were quite strong (like Rin's time in the academy, or when she fought the face-stealing monster). However, the last third or so of the book didn't sit well at all with me, and I've spent the last few days puzzling over what exactly about it went off the rails.

It's hard to write a book that properly addresses genocide and warcrimes. It's not enough to just *show* them happening, as by their very nature these atrocities defy our ability to imagine them. Ergo why "one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic" - tragedy on that scale is difficult to comprehend. Even though the events described in this book mirror *actual* historical atrocities, I don't feel that RF Kuang was successful in making them feel any more real than seeing photos of bodies in a history book - I was academically aware that the events were "realistic," but emotionally remain detached and apart, not fully registering the full gravity of what was going on; unable to suspend my disbelief.

Honestly, I think the biggest issue is that the enemy was never even remotely humanized. They remained a cartoonish caricature throughout. The true horror of war is that it is *people* doing these terrible things to each other, with little difference between those doing the atrocities and those victims to them. However, TPW's Federation might as well have been an army of orcs for all the humanizing treatment they received, and I didn't feel at all like the story was trying to tell me any different. The Federation were evil monsters, but the big moral takeaway is that Rin was *also* a monster for obliterating their entire civilian population? Is that really as deep as we're going to go on this?

So ultimately, I felt like this book was a huge missed opportunity. I wish RF Kuang had dropped the exploration of genocide from this book and spent more time delivering on the fantastic mystical wuxia narrative that was working so well in the first half of the story, then taken the second book to give the genocide angle the proper treatment it deserved. As it was, it fell flat for me and I don't think I'll be picking up the second book.

[Molly]

It's been awhile since I read this book, but I agree that the last third (honestly, as soon as the war started) really dragged for me. I think it could have used some strong editing. But that's true of a lot of debut novels, and I found the story and world compelling enough to want to read the sequel.

I understand what you're saying about portraying the horror of genocide and war crimes, but at the same time...this book is on the verge of YA territory, and I don't know how graphic you want to get with that age group. I think the author toes the line between showing how horrible it is without dwelling on it too much, which I appreciated. From Rin's perspective, I think there might well have been some disassociation in that moment. She's been through a terrible ordeal and is probably too traumatized to fully process the horror of what she sees. Again, I read it awhile ago, but that's what I took away from it at the time. I would hope that the sequel further explores that trauma rather than brushing it under the rug, but who knows?

My review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

[Liam]

The description of the genocide is incredibly graphic, though. Murdered babies, sexual violence, impaling. The whole gamut. If she held anything back to maintain any sort of YA label, I didn’t see it.

It’s not the graphic depiction I thought was missing, but an exploration of the “how” and the “why” human beings could do such a thing to each other, rather than simply the “what” of the actual acts. The story ended with no deeper insights into the horrors of war than “they happen and are bad” and “revenge killing is just as bad.”

Compare that to, say, A Song of Ice and Fire. GRRM gave us a few books essentially glorifying combat and revelling in military success, followed by several tours of a war-ravaged countryside that leave you questioning your base assumptions about whether the war was ever justified at all, and who (if anyone) were the “good” and “bad” sides in it.

RF Kuang did very (if any) of that, which is what disappointed me.

[Melani]

I'm not sure I can have a concluding thought on the book, because we're not done yet, this is just a first book in a series. The characters ended the book at a low point in a character arc, and I suspect that the next books will be the redemption. My guess is that we will see Rin grappling with her decision as well as the aftermath of the horrific acts she and the others have committed, including the one that happened off page with the damn destruction.

I really don't think this is fair at all:

"Compare that to, say, A Song of Ice and Fire. GRRM gave us a few books essentially glorifying combat and revelling in military success, followed by several tours of a war-ravaged countryside that leave you questioning your base assumptions about whether the war was ever justified at all, and who (if anyone) were the “good” and “bad” sides in it. ",

You're giving GRRM several books, and judging Kuang's handling of war with just her initial foray into the atrocities of war. I'd argue that Kuang handles it better the GRRM, as she in no way glorifies anything. Her war is dehumanizing, on both sides. The faceless/orclike nature of The Federation is, I think, the point. She wants to show us how easy it is to make our enemy into villains and thus justify bombing them into oblivion.

Another point, how long did it take for the US to reckon with the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? I don't think we can expect Rin to grapple with her actions so soon after her anger erupted so violently, when history tells us that it can take decades.

I don't know how I feel about the book, I ended up giving it four stars because I think it's a very good start, but it isn't finished and a lot of that four stars is that I think the set up is very good. So much is going to depend on how Kuang finishes this story. I did buy the second book, but I'm tempted to wait until the third is released before reading it because I feel this is a story that really ought to be read as a whole and not broken up into smaller books. (That is part of a whole 'nother rant I have about modern fantasy epics though)

[Brandon]

I have to say I didn't fully enjoy the book, and not for the dark brutality which a tear was shed over. My dislike was with the teen angst side of the story and the fact that the strong "genius" tactician the main character was built up to be was so blind to everything and just getting hit by the plot rather than moving it.

I agree with Liams review, the first half of the book was well done and reminded me of The Kingkiller Chronicle by Patrick Rothfuss, but the last half of the book was forced and killed the characters arc.

[Trike]

Melani wrote: "You're giving GRRM several books, and judging Kuang's handling of war with just her initial foray into the atrocities of war."

That’s fair. Liam comparing the initial entry to a whole series was out of bounds.

That said, I did bail on Martin’s opus after one of his books committed the same annoying things this book did, such as repetitively hitting the same note chapter after chapter.

[Caitlin]

Melani wrote: "I'm not sure I can have a concluding thought on the book, because we're not done yet, this is just a first book in a series."

Melani wrote: "She wants to show us how easy it is to make our enemy into villains and thus justify bombing them into oblivion."

This is how I read the book as well. I think I might join you in waiting for the third book to come out before I continue, which is what I did after I read The Fifth Season. This book doesn't feel quite as strong as NK Jemisin's work, but it's close.

[Melani]

Caitlin wrote: "This book doesn't feel quite as strong as NK Jemisin's work, but it's close...."

This is kind of how I feel about it TBH. I kind of wish that Kuang had waited a bit, and let this novel sit until she was a more experienced writer before attempting it. It's an extremely ambitious novel.

I don't 100% love the book. And I think there were places where the writing was flawed (I have issues with how the passage of time was handled in a couple of places, for example). But I think for a first novel, and a novel that tackles this subject, it's well done.

[Margaret]

I started this book a few months ago because it got a lot of attention. I gave up about two thirds of the way in. It felt like slogging through War and Piece, or the nastier Game of Thrones volumes, but with characters that didn't quite grasp me hard enough.
I really appreciated the balanced views and thoughts here and may go back for the rest of the story.

[Rob, Roberator]

I liked the first part of the book more than the latter parts, but I still enjoyed the book enough as a whole to continue on with the series. I'm a sucker for the fantasy school trope though, so that's almost to be expected.

With all the warnings I got about this book, I was honestly expecting the violence and atrocities to be far more graphic. It certainly wasn't pleasant, but I thought it was warranted given the context of the war.

Song of Ice and Fire, Malazan book of the Fallen, First Law among others have far more graphic and horrific things in them. Although I'd consider all of those books/series to be better written.

Considering this is her first book, I think it's an unfair comparison. I will be curious to see how she handles this stuff moving forward. Does she come back and address it? Because it was mostly unaddressed in this book.

[Ruth (tilltab) Ashworth]

I raced through the first part of the book, got bogged down in the middle and raced to the end. It definitely feels like a two different books squashed together, and the middle made for an awkward transition. I have mixed feelings about the ending, which was very uncomfortable, but I really enjoyed the first half, and found the second compelling. I am looking forward to seeing how the story continues - as others have said, I think that will change how I feel about this book overall, for better or worse remains to be seen.

[Seth]

Margaret wrote: "I started this book a few months ago because it got a lot of attention. I gave up about two thirds of the way in... "

I had almost the same experience. At some point, I knew that the worst of the violence was coming up pretty soon and I just found that I wasn't invested in the book enough to convince me I should carry it through. I don't know if I have enough self-awareness to figure out exactly what it was about the book, but for some reason it didn't grab me. I should also say that really grim fantasy isn't my favorite part of the genre, so it wasn't a book that was directly in my wheelhouse anyway.