[2020] Voting for 2nd Mini-Poll

[Johanne]

I guess my point was just to not exclude non-English speakers. And I also like things to be clearly worded, which I believe is not in opposition to being lose or unstrict when it actually comes to fulfilling the prompts. I like Emily's wordy description.

[Johanne]

..or Bryony's

[Bryony]

Peter wrote: "This group has never been concerned with exact precision in what books people choose for the prompts and I think that is a good thing. I've been a part of groups that are extremely strict about how the topics are fulfilled and it's just not fun. It becomes tedious and people start calling other people's choices into question."

I couldn’t agree more, Peter. One of my favourite things about our group is that nobody tries to police other people’s choice of books. For me, the ultimate purpose of a reading challenge is to encourage people to read and enjoy what they read. If people feel that they are going to be criticised for their choice of books then it starts to make reading and participating in this group feel like a chore and that’s the opposite of what it should be.

Personally I’m okay with prompts being open to interpretation and I think it’s up to the reader how they choose to interpret a particular prompt. Once they’re voted in, prompts aren’t the “property” of the person who suggested them so I’m not sure how much it matters if someone intended people to interpret their prompt in a particular way.

I do think we should make sure prompts about words in the title aren’t phrased in such a way that they disadvantage those who read in a language other than English, though I think that’s a separate issue to the discussion about the “intention” of different prompts.

[Emily, Conterminous Mod]

But, on the other hand, this discussion time is supposed to be used for clarification about the prompts, so I don't think it's out of line for people to consider the suggester's intention when they are debating about their voting. While I may not use the person's intention, I am interested to see what they envisioned. I don't think it's worth questioning after the prompt is voted in, but, if you're going to ask about it, now would be the time... before voting goes live.

[dalex]

My reason in asking about "A crime fiction book" is that, imo, the interpretation of that is "A book from the crime fiction genre," which would probably be a no-vote for me. However, if it is meant to be more open (ie "A novel in which a crime occurs") then I most likely would not include it in my no-votes.

And if the word in a title is not a verb (but is instead a noun or an adjective) then it really is not a "A book with a VERB in the title," is it? Again, understanding these distinctions could influence my vote.

[Emily, Conterminous Mod]

As far as grammar goes, any verb with an -ing ending could act as a noun or adjective. To me, the distinction is that it is a verb, which then has an -ing added to the end, no matter what it turns into after the -ing addition (noun, verb, or adjective).

I guess it depends if you want to put the emphasis on "verb ending in -ing" or "a book with a verb (that also happens to have an -ing at the end)". I would personally count all of them as possibilities.

That being said, we already have two title prompts, so I was hesitating voting for this one, even though I'm drawn to it.

[Jill]

Raquel wrote: "I feel like someone might get mad at me for this reaction, so I'm just going to say it straight out: I really don't have any interest in reading a book just about women's suffrage.

Before I just ..."

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3...

This has been recommended to me by a couple of people, and looks more fiction

[°~Amy~°]

After the discussion, I am second guessing voting for the -ING prompt. I'll have to see what the final wording is, but if it's more specific or super wordy, then I will pass on it.

I think that keeping the wording of prompts simple is always the best route. People can interpret from there how liberal or how strict they want to be with it. As someone mentioned before we have the KIS/BIO list just for this reason.

[Emily, Conterminous Mod]

I agree, Amy, but I don't think that adding a phrase for inclusivity is harmful to the prompt. Simply tacking on a "or the equivalent in another language" allows for non-English readers to feel like they are a part of the prompt and can read in their own language without losing the spirit of the prompt.

[°~Amy~°]

Emily wrote: "I agree, Amy, but I don't think that adding a phrase for inclusivity is harmful to the prompt. Simply tacking on a "or the equivalent in another language" allows for non-English readers to feel lik..."

But shouldn't it just be assumed that if a prompt doesn't fit you then it's up to you to adapt it to fit your particular circumstance? If I were on a German reading challenge website and it called for me to read a book by an author that has not been translated into English, I'd just pick up a German author that WAS translated and move on. I wouldn't expect the group to not have that prompt at all because it didn't include me or to add a bunch of verbiage to give me "permission" to read something else. That doesn't make sense. I mean, aren't we always going to have prompts that don't fit some people because of their locations, their religions/belief systems, their orientations, whatever....do we have to add disclaimers to deal with every possible circumstance that might come up? It's impossible!

We had a similar issue last week when Zaz mentioned that her country doesn't have Leap Year. That was a prompt that I suggested and it got through. I did not know that there were any countries left who did not have Leap Year. I had always thought it was a worldwide thing. She didn't ask us to change it, she just pointed it out and said she would adapt. We didn't have to add "or an equivalent time of year in your part of the world" to the prompt.

It's the same for the Read a Crime Fiction prompt. Is it truly necessary to add "Read a book from the Crime Fiction Genre" or even "Read a book from the crime fiction drama OR a book featuring a crime". One way makes it far more restrictive and the other opens it up but do we need to specifically spell all that out or can't we just let people interpret a "crime fiction" how they see fit?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just expressing my opinion that simpler wording is easier and less stressful and more words and more complications just cause more problems. That's all.

[Nicole]

Well, I think the original question about -ing was answered. Anyone who has said that this time is for hashing out confusing prompts is right. We did all agree that some time to clarify things would be nice a day before the voting process! :) I just hope we don’t have to dive so deep into all of the wording of future prompts.

On another note, does anyone know how I can receive updates from the 2020 suggestions group? I get notified like 50 times a day from things I don’t participate in and yet don’t get notified about any of the topics in the ATY group.

[Emily, Conterminous Mod]

The difference with the Leap Year prompt is that Leap Year isn't actually a component of the prompt -- a book that can be read in a day doesn't have anything to do with Leap Year; it was just suggested in honor of it. In contrast, saying that a book must have a verb ending with -ing (or a title containing the word "the") is inherently English-speaking.

It doesn't complicate the prompt nor add much length to it to tack on a contingency for all of our members who don't read primarily in English. Adding that phrase only makes it three words longer than the Leap Year prompt, and it allows our non-English readers to participate more fully. In my mind, why WOULDN'T we add that small phrase if it means people in the community could participate more fully?

[Emily, Conterminous Mod]

Nicole, if you go to this thread, you can sign up to follow the discussion.. the mods post announcements on that thread with links to the updates!

[Nicole]

Emily are you getting a notification any time someone comments? Currently I just go back into this thread and refresh the page lol.

[Emily, Conterminous Mod]

Are you on the app or on the desktop browser? On the browser, you can click right above the comment box where it says "Notify me when people comment". On the app, you would click "Topic Notification Settings". Commenting doesn't automatically subscribe you to the thread.

[Nadine in NY]

On the bottom of the post, click on Topic Notification Settings, and set it to notify you when there are replies. You can also go to the main group page and be notified of ALL updates, I think (I think that’s still a feature?), but thats probably too much. You can go to your own Goodreads settings and tell it to notify you of updates to any post you’ve replied to, if you wish.

[°~Amy~°]

Emily wrote: "The difference with the Leap Year prompt is that Leap Year isn't actually a component of the prompt -- a book that can be read in a day doesn't have anything to do with Leap Year; it was just sugge..."

What about our sight impaired members (which we do have)? Do we add "Read a book or listen to an audiobook that includes....." to every prompt so that they feel included as well? What about members that don't have libraries, (which we have seen)? When we do a library-specific prompt, do we tag on an addendum for them, or do we let them figure out an alternative that works for them? I'm just saying, it's a rabbit hole. Whatever the group decides on that in the end is fine with me.

What's more important is adding all the extra bits about what type of verbs count and which don't, and when a verb is actually a noun.....that's just too much. And how making adding addendums to the crime fiction prompt.......We don't need to be that specific, it alienates more members than it helps. It's exactly why a lot of us don't do the Bookriot prompt, because it's too specific and too limiting and not what we have always strived for here with this challenge. But maybe that's where the group wants to go. We shall see.

[Sophie]

How about: A book whose English title contains a verb ending in “ing”

[Emily, Conterminous Mod]

I think that's ok Sophie, but then it does limit it to only books that have been translated to English. I'm an English reader, so I'll let the people who read in other languages chime in?

[Johanne]

As I initially wrote something like the prompt wording as it is now and then just add '... or a similar conjugation of a verb in another language'. It's fine by me if we can find a shorter wording.

And it's not because I feel excluded, it's just because a prompt saying it has to have a certain word in English in the title also implies you should read a book in English. And that's fine if that's what we want, it was just my impression it isn't, and it's also my impression that this is an international group, and not a strictly English speaking group (even though that is our common language of communication).

I really didn't mean to start a big debate.

[Hilde]

Sophie wrote: "How about: A book whose English title contains a verb ending in “ing”"

Thank you. I do prefer the wording suggested by Bryony?., i.e"or the equivalent in another language" as that opens up for local books as well :)

[Johanne]

Yes Hilde that's even shorter.

[Sophie]

Emily wrote: "I think that's ok Sophie, but then it does limit it to only books that have been translated to English. I'm an English reader, so I'll let the people who read in other languages chime in?"

Right, hadn’t thought of that 😉

[Laura, Celestial Sphere Mod]

I genuinely think that it's implied that you would choose the equivalent verb-age in another language, with or without putting it explicitly in the prompt. Not that I'm totally against it, but as Amy is saying, I think we could add a ton of qualifying items to any prompt, and a at certain point it becomes excessive.

I think in the case of a language prompt, there's an implication that you would translate it over. This may be overly simplistic but if a prompt said "cat" then someone reading the list in French would translate it to "chat". So in the case of the ING prompt, ING should just be translated to the equivalent verb. Granted, I'm definitely not fluent in those other languages so maybe the translation isn't as direct as I'm imagining.

[Bryony]

I think the issue of making our challenge accessible to people from different parts of the world, or who require particular book formats, or who speak different languages is separate to the discussion about the wording of prompts.

I don’t think it would be right to include a prompt that required or excluded audiobooks for example. Some people, including those with a visual impairment, can only read using audiobooks, while other people, including those who are deaf, can’t listen to audiobooks at all. It wouldn’t be fair to exclude people in that way.

The assumption that people read in English is similar though not exactly the same. I guess it could be assumed that readers of other languages can adapt the prompt to their language, but it would also be easy enough for us to add a qualification about the equivalent in other languages if that will help make the challenge work for members of the group who read in languages other than English.

I do agree about not making things unnecessarily complicated. However, I think adding a qualification about other languages doesn’t make the prompt any more or less challenging for those who read in English, but will make our challenge more easily accessible to people who read in other languages. And that’s surely only a good thing?

[Laura, Celestial Sphere Mod]

The rest of my response to the discussion is a bit hard to word so bear with me.

I think there's value in the discussion when there are concrete issues with a prompt that may need to be re-worded. So it gives the original person time to clarify or modify. I think it's a different discussion to get into the nitty gritty of what books would count or how we should interpret a prompt.

For instance, I submitted the map suggestion last week, originally stating that it would be the 2020 map. After discussion, I modified it to be the 2019 list, due to concerns people had (I know it still lost 😂) . We're having a similar suggestion about the suffrage prompt. Some prompts have concrete portions that are not as open to interpretation. With the suffrage prompt, we may end up changing it to "suffrage" in general, rather than "women's suffrage". The way it's worded now, or with my 2020 map prompt, it would clearly be violating the prompt to use a different map or to read about African American suffrage, for instance.

I think there's other discussions that are more suited for after the vote, when individual members are just choosing how they wish to personally interpret the prompt. In those cases, we could easily get into a "beating a dead horse" situation (can't there be a better analogy out there?)

So not to de-value discussion, but as Peter said, try to look at the prompt as if it's on a challenge list. How would you interpret it? If there are concrete issues with the wording that you feel you would violate in some way (i.e. year, language barrier, specific groups, etc.) then there's room for re-wording. Others are better left for later when you just choose to interpret your individual challenge.

[Nicole]

Think of all the times we've had prompts that would be difficult to apply to books written in different languages. I'm sure anyone reading in that language just adjusted the prompt to meet their needs.

A book with a number in the title - some languages use different numbering systems (https://www.omniglot.com/language/num...)

A book that has A, T, and Y in the title or author's name - what about languages that use logograms, like Chinese or Japanese?

A book with one of the 5 W's in the title (who, what, where, when, why.) - Surely if anyone read in a different language, say Spanish, they wouldn't have skipped this prompt. They would have chosen a book with (qué, quien, donde, cuando, por qué) in the title.

It's going to be difficult to see how any of the prompts we choose might not apply across languages, although it's still a GREAT thing to work towards being inclusive and considerate of others.

Maybe we can just post a disclaimer when we publish the list that says "If you're reading a book in a language other than English, feel free to apply the prompt as best you can to your native language, or the language you will be reading in."


****** Didn't see Laura's comment until after I posted mine. But I agree! I think we might be hammering an already flush nail. (This was my attempt at a better idiom...)

[Katie]

One of the topics I'm super excited about is the power/corruption option. I like nonfiction, so I think it is open to biographies about people like Napoleon. I also immediately thought of The Power, which was a book I really enjoyed last year. Does anyone else have any good suggestions for this?

[°~Amy~°]

Nicole wrote: "hammering an already flush nail..."

That is by far the best thing I have read all day! I love it!

[Nicole]

I can think of a ton of power/corruption options that are in the YA dystopia category lol in fact, one of my favorites!

A Thousand Pieces of You
The Darkest Minds
Girls of Paper and Fire
The Hunger Games
Pet Sematary (not your first thought, but I actually think it could totally apply!)
Dark Matter (another abuse of power or ability to do something.)
Jurassic Park (again, atypical. But like Pet Semetary and Dark Matter, I think it's more like you have the power to do something but should you? The famous quote "your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should." comes to mind)


I actually didn't finish The Power last year. I just couldn't keep listening to it. I felt so sick to my stomach near the last, I don't know, maybe 15%-20%

I like this prompt a lot as well! I think it could be a good opportunity for me to push myself to pick up another non-fiction.

[Nicole]

°~Amy~° wrote: "Nicole wrote: "hammering an already flush nail..."

That is by far the best thing I have read all day! I love it!"

Haha! Thanks Amy! I tried!

[Nadine in NY]

Johanne wrote: "As I initially wrote something like the prompt wording as it is now and then just add '... or a similar conjugation of a verb in another language'. It's fine by me if we can find a shorter wording...."



I agree, I think of this as an international group, and I'm glad you spoke up, because I am so mono-lingual that it didn't even occur to me that other languages might not use the word "the" or it would be difficult to interpret the "-ing" prompt. I'm sure the people suggesting them just see that as a cute prompt - well, that's how I saw them when I saw them, anyway.

And as a literalist, I never feel comfortable interpreting the categories on my own - I like to feel like the book I chose truly fits the prompt as it is worded, without any bending on my part. That's not to say I NEVER bend the prompts to suit myself, but when I do, I feel weird about it. Briefly.

[Joanne]

So many good prompts this round. I currently have 8 top choices and 2 bottom ones. Hard to narrow it down.

[Rachel]

Very interesting discussion, and it's especially interesting to me coming into is so late in the day and seeing all the comments so far. I really like Nicole's general disclaimer suggestion above, since that covers the issue in general without making specific prompts more wordy.

For what it's worth, both crime fiction and verb ending in -ing were among my top choices, so I hope the discussion hasn't dissuaded too many people! I interpreted "crime fiction" as any fictional book where a crime was central to the plot, not necessarily the specific crime fiction genre.

I tend to be a literalist as well when it comes to how to interpret prompts, but it never occurred to me that some prompts might not work as intended in other languages. I just assumed that the people reading in those languages would automatically know how to find an equivalent, or choose a book in English if possible. I'm curious how many of us do all or some of the challenge in languages other than English. I only read in English myself, but it might be an interesting survey to take at some point.

[Sarah]

😬 I was the one to suggest the “verb ending in ‘ing’” prompt, not having any idea of the amount of discourse that it would be create!! I found the conversation really interesting. I’m new to the group, having just discovered it in November. I tend to enjoy the prompts that include the title of the book and was trying to think of one that I hadn’t come across before. Honestly, I didn’t put much thought into it, other than seeing if there were any lists of books that could be gone through for suggestions.

In no way did I mean to exclude anyone with the suggestion! I am completely fine with any modifications people think should be included, such as Bryony’s suggestion of “or the equivalent in another language"!

[Serendipity]

Since my PhD thesis was on the topic of women in politics and since it hail from the country that was the first to give women the right to vote in national elections on the same terms as me I can’t help but vote for the suffrage prompt. The 1920s and Antarctica prompts also grab my attention at first glance. Nothing is making me go “please not that one” which is good.

[Jill]

°~Amy~° wrote: "Emily wrote: "The difference with the Leap Year prompt is that Leap Year isn't actually a component of the prompt -- a book that can be read in a day doesn't have anything to do with Leap Year; it ..."

That is precisely why I no longer do the Book Riot Challenge, Amy. Even the couple of times I did do it I was very reluctant to post the books I was reading because I once I got told in not very nice terms the book I was reading did not fit the “meaning” of the prompt.
I love this group and I like participating in all the activities. I hope the spirit of reading adventure and broadening our reading horizons stays our focus.

[Angie]

Katie wrote: "One of the topics I'm super excited about is the power/corruption option. I like nonfiction, so I think it is open to biographies about people like Napoleon. I also immediately thought of "

I haven't read it yet, but I've heard that A Game of Thrones deals really well with issues of power/what power does to someone who wields it.

I, Claudius

Roman Emperors

Power Books (looks like a mix of fic and non-fic)

Political Fiction

[Johanne]

@Sarah, I really didn't mean to start a big debate, I merely asked to have it modified a little. I really like the prompt idea with the addition, which probably didn't come through.

[Johanne]

Or a general disclaimer would work really well, then we don't have to discuss it at all for coming prompts. I know we have had title prompts before, but for some reason specific conjugations and articles set off my literalist alarm.

[Sophie]

I’m all for the general disclaimer so the prompts are shorter and we don’t have to go through this whole discussion once more 😅

[Ellie]

I include mysteries and thrillers in crime fiction personally. I think calling them "mysteries"is a US thing. UK crime fiction festivals definitely include a wide variety so I don't think you'd need to read a police procedural for it. I probably wouldn't vote for it but I'm not that bothered if it gets in because it's so wide.

At first glance, I like most the prompts. If women's suffrage gets in I know I heard a lot about Mrs Pankhurst's Purple Feather: A Scandalous History of Birds, Hats and Votes so I would read that

[Milena]

I read mostly in Polish. I have no problem adjusting the prompts to the books I read, I look for an equivalent or check the original English title.
Adding so many disclaimers would be completely unnecessary in my opinion, let's not be oversensitive. One for the whole list is enough and pretty clear.
I have never felt excluded because of specific wording. I think Nicole gave us great examples of how it's impossible to apply all prompts literally to every language.

[Sarah]

@Johanne I understood what you were saying. People reading in other languages and being very literal with the prompts never even entered my mind and I'm glad it's been brought to my attention!! (I always like learning how things appear to people of different backgrounds than myself). I like the idea of a general disclaimer as well :)

[Steve]

I was away from the group these last few days and see these awesome prompts to choose from! Last week I feel like I downvoted 6... I think it'll be opposite this week!

[Emily, Conterminous Mod]

I ended up going with 6 upvotes and 2 downvotes.

My upvotes were:
- A place or time you wouldn't want to live (because we don't often get good setting prompts and this is a good one)
- A book related to the 1920s (here's looking at you, 40 Before 40 list...)
- A book whose audiobook is read by the author (I listen to audiobooks frequently, and I love when authors narrate them)
- A book by the same author who wrote one of your favorite 2018 or 2019 reads (because I need a push to read authors more than once, and I can use it for some 2020 releases)
- A debut novel published in 2020 (because I read so many Book of the Month Club books, and this is a frequent occurrence for them)
- A book with neon lights on the cover (because fun to search for!)

I was debating about the -ing prompt, but ended up not voting either way on it. I will like it if it gets in, but we already have 2 title prompts, and those are the easiest to suggest, so I let this one pass.

I also really liked the book found on your friend's TBR... it's about as close to personal as I'm willing to get with a prompt, but I just couldn't squeeze it in with only 6 upvotes available to me.

My downvotes were definitely personal preferences: I didn't like many of the options I found for women's suffrage, and I'm not a fan of books with natural disasters in them.

[Nadine in NY]

I really hope “mathematical term” wins because I’m looking for a good push to read The Kiss Quotient!!

[Milena]

Nadine wrote: "I really hope “mathematical term” wins because I’m looking for a good push to read The Kiss Quotient!!"

Why do you need a push? I think you will like it based on what little I know of other romances you have liked. Of course if mathematical term wins, then it would be very tempting to save The Kiss Quotient for next year.

[dalex]

The more I think about the "mathematical term" prompt, the more I like it.

- a number (or the word "number) in the title
- a shape in the title [geometry]
- words like rule, line, point, ray, closed [again, geometry]
- a book in a series [calculus] (though that's stretching things quite a bit)

Just something to consider when deciding on your votes. :) I know I was kind of stumped by add, subtract, equals, etc.

[Johanne]

dalex wrote: "The more I think about the "mathematical term" prompt, the more I like it.

- a number (or the word "number) in the title
- a shape in the title [geometry]
- words like rule, line, point, ray, clos..."

Good point. There are a great many books with "circle" in the title, for example.