"The Necessary Beggar" by Susan Palwick (BR)

[Beth]

Here's a thread for discussion of Susan Palwick's The Necessary Beggar.

Out of consideration for others who might not have gotten as far into the book, please use spoiler tags for anything beyond a basic "look and feel" from the first couple of chapters.

Enjoy!

[Kristin B.]

Got my copy from the library and started it yesterday. There are some really heavy themes in here already that are getting dissected. Should be an interesting read.

[Beth]

Great, Kristin! I've got a couple of other books to wrap up, but will join you shortly.

[Kristin B.]

Slight spoiler, but mostly just a line I find hysterical from page 80:

(view spoiler)[ please dear God don't let the Army catch me smuggling these people out or I'll be shit on toast... (hide spoiler)]

I still don't know if this is really my kind of story, but the writing is sometimes fascinating.

[Cheryl]

All I know is that I read this years ago and enjoyed/appreciated it, even though it's not normally something I'd choose.

[Beth]

I sneaked in the first chapter. While I'm not fond of stories set in present-day America (I know what it's like, and read to take myself away from it), it looks like a lot of NB will deal with this Lemabantunk family's culture, and their culture shock. (And, I hope, will also provide some details about the "why" of the inciting incident.) We'll see!

[Shomeret]

Cheryl wrote: "All I know is that I read this years ago and enjoyed/appreciated it, even though it's not normally something I'd choose."

It was one of my favorites years ago when I read it.

[Kristin B.]

Pg 136 (view spoiler)[I imagine that Mim-Bim the beetle has a point. But so far it's just an annoying aside that gets brought back up every now and then. It feels out of place. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I just ordered this from the library, hope to join soon!

[Kristin B.]

Chapter 7(view spoiler)[
Really not a fan of how Darroti's story actually went. It was way too Romeo and Juliet, super angsty drama for me. I was really thinking it was going to be revealed that the father killed Gallicina in a rage and somehow managed to frame Darroti for it. That would have been much more satisfying. Especially since her actions don't even make much sense.

I understand that suicide very rarely does. However, this was just kind of a mess. She had spent the entire last month thinking that he had never loved her and was with Stini instead. Yet she was still going through with her Mendicant service. All of a sudden he shows back up and is telling her that what she thought wasn't true and that's when she loses it? Again, I get that grief and suicide are often deaf, but this felt super overplayed. She had spent years being dedicated to becoming a Mendicant so she could enter the temple and she's going to throw all that away over a boy? I'm just never a fan of women who lose themselves completely over a man. It feels artificial and insulting to the woman. (My friend and I fight about Tonks from Harry Potter a lot for this reason.)

If her character had shown that kind of tendency before this, then I would have been more able to accept it. She was willing to never see him again if he continued drinking. She wouldn't have lost her sense over that. But the possibility of him loving another woman instead totally unhinges her? It felt cheap. (And another instance of a female character being killed off to advance a male character's story line.)

I'm looking forward to getting back to Timbor and the rest of the family. I like them better. Unfortunately, I think Zama is right and the beetle is going to turn out to be Gallicina and that is going to annoy me to no end.

Give me the story of the immigrant family struggling to find their place. Give me the story of empathetic faith and family strength. Keep your dramatic and tragic lovers. They give me a rash. (hide spoiler)]

[Beth]

Allison wrote: "I just ordered this from the library, hope to join soon!"

The more, the merrier!

[Kristin B.]

Done!

(view spoiler)[Wow there's a lot to unpack in this one! Themes of immigration, poverty, mental illness, family, adolescence, medical care, obligation, religion, alcoholism... I could probably go on. This was not what I was expecting at all. Definitely didn't feel sci fi. And if fact I felt that it could have even been achieved without it being sci fi. Of course, then we wouldn't be reading it.

Gripes: Darroti and Gallicina. Just ugh. I despise tragic romances. Every bit of it was over-dramatized and eye roll inducing.

The beetle. It felt shoe horned in. I understand, especially now at the end, what the purpose was. But I felt it could have used a bit more finesse.

Bit too neat. Not actually sure if this is a gripe or not. I like when a story wraps everything up and is happily ever after, but the Blessings chapter was just a bit to convenient on all fronts.

What I loved: Timbor! He was such a kind man. He loved his family, he wanted them all to be happy and he was perfectly grandfatherly. I felt so sad for him. I am pretty sure I cried during every one of his chapters. His voice was perfect.

The issues. I loved that it covered so much. A lot of times that drives me nuts, but I think it fit here. The issues of poverty, health care, feeling other and having a religion forced on you are all things that are very relevant to immigrants.

The clown analogy. It was cheesy. But Lisa is just the type of person to come from a mother that had a house full of clowns. I think it worked.

Lisa herself. As an atheist I am of two minds with her. I despise when people talk non-stop about their religion when they know I am not interested. Or when they try to point out things in life as proof of their faith. HOWEVER, her actions are the exact type of Christian that I adore. She does not berate them for not believing. She is calm and patient. She is kind and giving. She is a fierce protector of the less fortunate. She doesn't balk at breaking a few rules if it means that she's helping people. She does not use her faith to make her feel superior or to damn people who don't fit the mold. She uses her faith to make her a better person, which is the point of faith. Something I think a lot of people forget.

Overall, I was pleasantly surprised by this. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Kristin, I do not think you understand what "starts May 22" means =P

I am teasing, I can't wait to click these spoilers!!

[Kristin B.]

Allison wrote: "Kristin, I do not think you understand what "starts May 22" means =P

I am teasing, I can't wait to click these spoilers!!"

I couldn't help it. :D My copy came in from the library and I have so many other books to read!

[Beth]

Allison wrote: "Kristin, I do not think you understand what "starts May 22" means =P"

I intended to get some of this read before the 22nd, but Kristin wins the gold medal for promptness! :) I'm looking forward to reading her ongoing posts, too.

[Beth]

Okay, I've finished up my couple of trailing things and am back in this. :)

As of Ch. 3:

The (view spoiler)[beetle (hide spoiler)] is great, including its name. Between it and the (view spoiler)[ghost (hide spoiler)] I can see why GR readers have categorized this book as (view spoiler)[magical realism (hide spoiler)]. (And can't really see why it's categorized as SF, aside from a mention of a law passed in the 2020s.)

The main characters' situation is topical! And has been for quite some time, of course.

I love fictional explorations of religion and spirituality. If that is a consistent theme, this book will be totally up my street.

[Beth]

Ch. 4-6 or so: the description of the house in this part of the book brought on a visceral wave of memory that rarely happens for me while reading. The plushy pile carpeting*, scrupulous cleanliness and smell of soap reminded me of my maternal grandparents' house.

*how on earth did they keep it clean?

Not the (view spoiler)[clowns (hide spoiler)], though. Thank goodness.

ETA:

Kristin B. wrote: "Pg 136 [spoilers removed]"

Starting to agree. I'm nearly as frustrated with it as Damatryna is!

I have a guess as to where (view spoiler)[Darroti went (hide spoiler)]...

[Beth]

Kristin B. wrote: "Chapter 7"

Agreed about all of this, the (view spoiler)[Romeo and Juliet-ness (hide spoiler)] of it is pretty up in the reader's face.

Kristin B. wrote: (view spoiler)["If her character had shown that kind of tendency before this, then I would have been more able to accept it. (hide spoiler)]"

+1! It felt inconsistent to me, too.

(view spoiler)[Really, it seems unfair that Darroti is the central factor in everything that's happened so far. Alcoholics are a psychic drain on everyone who cares about them (don't ask me how I know). His suicide only adds more sorrow and instability to those he's left behind.

I can't hate him despite all this--he really does his best to overcome his alcoholism, even through delirium tremens, and he has the grace to feel remorse for his various lies rather than try to bluff his way through with anger. Maybe I can see Gallicina believing he'd been keeping on with Stansi (sp?) since she knew he was a liar. Well, if he'd won fair lady, we wouldn't have a story, eh?

I also hope that NB focuses more on the family's coming to terms with their life in the U.S. as opposed to these young fools' forever-love beyond death. (hide spoiler)]

[Kristin B.]

Re Darroti's story (view spoiler)[After the chapter where we learn about the death, he gets a lot less obnoxious. We focus much more on the family. (hide spoiler)]

[Cheryl]

"The letters are tissues of fact containing no truth."
If I were reading this in paper, or even digitally, I'd have notes on so many lines. So many provocative ideas, explored so beautifully.
(I'm reading it on openlibrary, where it'd been scanned under bad light and is difficult to read.)

I'm not quite done yet, but I have read all the comments above, and I don't quite see things the same way some of you do... I mean, I don't quite disagree, but, well, it'd be so much easier to talk about this one in person.

Btw, I recently moved away from the Reno area after surviving over 20 years there, and the author definitely knows and loves the area and is almost making me feel nostalgic.

[Beth]

I'm interested in your opinions about the book, Cheryl! (Even if they're very different from mine.)

Almost done, just a couple chapters to go. Jerry's a sweet kid. :)

[Cheryl]

Well, I'm thinking at this point that a lot of it kind of annoying, in a way, like the beetle and the tragic love... but I'm confident that it's all going to come together beautifully.

Esp. for example the beetle. If Zamatryna is so concerned that Stan or somebody will kill it, if she lets it go, why doesn't she just take it somewhere safer to release it? Obviously she's conflicted, inside of herself, and determined to thwart its attempt to escape, even if she tells herself she's annoyed by it.

And Timbor is far from perfect, too. Not only did he not do enough to discourage his son from excessive drink (as he admits to himself) but he's not paying enough attention to Zamatryna and is just assuming that she's happily assimilating into American culture.

Jerry's def. sweet... that's not going to change. I hope Z. does learn to love him enough that marrying him is the right choice for both of them.

[Beth]

Finished it this morning. I'll spoiler-pop most of this post, just in case.

Kristin B. wrote:"This was not what I was expecting at all. Definitely didn't feel sci fi. And if fact I felt that it could have even been achieved without it being sci fi."

To me it feels more like magical realism than SF (more fantasy-adjacent, then?). The inter-dimensional portal at the very beginning (view spoiler)[and end (hide spoiler)] of the book is about it, SF-wise.

(view spoiler)[Kristin B. wrote: "Gripes: Darroti and Gallicina. Just ugh. I despise tragic romances. Every bit of it was over-dramatized and eye roll inducing."

Even the resolution of their story was a little corny, in my view. I didn't hate it, it was just a little over the top. :)

On the whole I thought that Palwick did a good job wrapping some things up, while leaving others open. Whether Betty would live through her operation, or how Zamatryna and Jerry's relationship actually went vs. Timbor's imagining of how it would go, among others.

Kristin B. wrote: "What I loved: Timbor!"

He was my favorite character, too. :)

Kristin B. wrote: "Lisa herself. As an atheist I am of two minds with her."

I'm not religious--more agnostic or humanist--although like many non-religious folks I come from a religious family background. At times I thought Lisa's speeches went on a little too long, and were on the boring and pedantic side. However, she is one of the genuinely good people in this book. Like Kristin, I also liked how she was willing to bend or break the law to do good for others.

Especially since in this book's version of the U.S., the law is especially cruel to the indigent, whether refugees or the homeless. This isn't to say that it's particularly kind to either now. Refugee detainment camps out in the desert, family separation, sweeps of homeless camps...

Cheryl wrote: "Esp. for example the beetle. If Zamatryna is so concerned that Stan or somebody will kill it, if she lets it go, why doesn't she just take it somewhere safer to release it?"

This was a sticking point for me, too. The obvious answer is that she needed to be out of Darroti's perception until the very end of the book for the story to work*. But Zamatryna could have, for example, let it loose in her room now and then, especially when she knew that other family members wouldn't be entering her room.

*There are a couple of other plot-convenient coincidences or forced scenarios, too. For example, Lisa happens to save the Lemabantuk family during a terrorist attack, and also happens to have an empty decent-sized house available for their use. (hide spoiler)]

This book came out in 2004 and "the more things change..." Sobering.

Its combination of sweetness, and characters with terrible destructive personal flaws, was really good. Also its critique of US laws and culture, and the depiction of Lemabantuk culture as it gradually grows further and further from the daily lives of the central family.

[Kristin B.]

Beth wrote: "This book came out in 2004 and "the more things change..." Sobering...."

This is what made this a particularly timely read. As we should be moving further and further away from fear based on cultural differences, we seem to be circling back to it instead. It's sad and makes the kindness we see in the book all the more hopeful. We need more Lisa's.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

On page 136

(view spoiler)[ I am confused where this story is going. Initially I thought it was going to be a sort of modern fairytale with xenophobia as an enemy, but we've got religion and a sort of The Lovely Bones thing going on...I think I'm more annoyed at the constant religion than the beetle, which I assume is the Mendicant, not drawing an X but the infinity sign. (hide spoiler)]

[Kristin B.]

Allison wrote: "On page 136

[spoilers removed]"

Re: religion (view spoiler)[It's definitely heavy handed in the middle there. I will say that the preacher gets a lot less preachy as we get to the end of the story. It's a big relief. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Good to know!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

End Chapter 10

(view spoiler)[ JESUS H CHRIST this is heavy! This poor family!! Tell me it has a happy ending at least, this feels a lot like oppression porn right now and I don't wanna! (hide spoiler)]

[Beth]

It'll be fine! 😄

[Kristin B.]

Allison wrote: "End Chapter 10

[spoilers removed]"

Re: happy ending? (Not really a spoiler) (view spoiler)[I promise it ends on a high note. I hate depressing endings usually, so I would have not liked it nearly as much if it stayed that bleak (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

*slowly crawls out from the blanket pile*

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Okay, I've finished!

(view spoiler)[ I agree with you all on the sticking points and the exemplary points. I think I just feel a little hoodwinked. The writing in the beginning, as Cheryl noted, was really incredible. I felt that diminished as the book went on and got more heavy-handed. And then I really didn't like any of the romances in the book, and I especially didn't like that they became central. "Romantic love will save you" is something I balk at. "Marriage is the only way to happiness" is particularly upsetting.

I think this book was taking on a lot, and I would likely feel more kindly towards it if it hadn't turned into a HEA romance at the end. This story deserved a bit more weight in the finale and I think either Palwick got stuck trying to make it meaningful, or got tired of writing such terrible things for her characters.

I really, really didn't like the pile on of pain in the last third. It started to feel gratuitous, and as I had come to care for each of these people, I didn't understand (except as a vehicle for redemption through romantic love) why it was all necessary.

I would have loved more moments like the one with the lawyer and Betty, where these people with nothing transform their community with kindness and compassion. (hide spoiler)]

[Kristin B.]

All valid points. I think this wanted to be more than it was.

I was mostly won over by Timbor and the fact that the book addressed the difficulty of the immigrant experience. Something we desperately need highlighted at the moment.

Even though it wasn't a win for you, I'm glad I got to read your thoughts! :)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I'm glad I read it! I agree, that part was so timely. I loved/ached for those parts, and had to be reminded that the adoption of whole families into your family is generally an organic thing, you can't just go and grab several and start a new village.

But that's what this book makes me want to do! I want to start a village of Timbors and Zamas and Lisas! Maybe Jerry, if he backs off.

[Beth]

Going to lightly push back on some of Allison's post, here.

(view spoiler)[Allison wrote: ""Romantic love will save you" is something I balk at. "Marriage is the only way to happiness" is particularly upsetting."

This in particular.

I'll definitely agree that the story's very hung up on the heteronormative version of romantic/sexual love. There's a brief mention of a gay guy, and that's all you get otherwise.

Zama and Jerry's marriage, in part, saves Betty, and there are hints that their wedding specifically could bring Macsofo and Alliniana (sp?) back together. Maybe it's just a matter of emphasis while reading, or our different outlooks, but since all these results were more of the "HFN, maybe" variety than "unmitigated HEA" I wasn't as discomfited by it.

ETA: HFN = "happy for now," HEA = "happily ever after," for those unfamiliar with romancelandia acronyms.

Aside from romantic love throughout the novel there's family love, found family love, and the agape of helping Betty*. And much of that happened outside the formations of het couples.

*Jerry is an agape guy on a base level.

Palwick stuck the landing better for me than it did for you, I think. I actually got choked up when D&G's spirits finally met. (Cynic in "big pile of mush" mode. [a mode also engaged by kittens.]) But there were definitely points where I saw authorial interference to get the story going where it needed to (mentioned in another post). (hide spoiler)]

Change of topic: one thing not mentioned yet was how (view spoiler)["life after death" was handled in the book. Gallicina represents the Lemabantuk belief, as she is stuck in a bug, and Darroti, dying in the U.S., was more of an American-style ghost. So does common belief in a society about what happens after death shape what actually happens to a "spirit" in both worlds? Anyway, there's a little corner of "spec fic" to ponder. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Beth, that's true, and I appreciate you mentioning it! (view spoiler)[ I think this was going for "love can save us all" in general, and it is likely I am being extra cranky because romantic love is the note we ended on. I also think it sticks out most because it *is* the most HFN of the love presented (platonic love being completely side-stepped), and I didn't feel like the book meant it to read as a temporary happiness--it was billed as "completing the cycle" and "the love that would save the family" which is what really got to me.

I am interested in how you read Jerry as a symbol of Christian/religious love! Please say more!

I should also note I have an almost no ability to read romance-centric novels as my inability to find normal things sweet is near-crippling, so just scoop a good dose of salt into my POV--just standing in my general vicinity should provide enough ;-P

Re: life after death, that was a really fascinating thing! I loved that she kept the worlds separate like that, a sort of "whatever it is you believe, happens" kind of nod. (hide spoiler)]

[Beth]

There isn't much to say except his love is consistently selfless. :) (view spoiler)[For example, he desires Zamatryna sexually but never presses the point. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Ha, fair enough.

(view spoiler)[ This is another one of those "romance-phobic" things for me, I think. I see that's what I'm supposed to see, but I'd be the friend growling at this dude that he needs to take a hint and move on. (hide spoiler)]

[Kristin B.]

Re: after death (view spoiler)[It was really interesting to see that apparently where you died made a difference to what happened to you. That could turn into a really fascinating series in it's own right. Following people to different universes beyond the door. Learning about the living world, and then also the afterworld. I'm curious, if they had landed in pre-colonial America, would it have been different? What about a country without a predominately Christian populace? What happens after death varies widely from faith to faith. (hide spoiler)]