September 2014 Group Read: We Need to Talk About Kevin by Lionel Shriver

[Nickronomicon]

I know I'm a few days late, but I should finish the book I'm reading now and start this one today. Sounds like it's a rocky start, but worth getting thru it? I'd love to dig into it tonight, but Sons of Anarchy is back......

[Pamela]

Hey, the discussion seems to have moved more toward the ending. Just finished it myself. It did leave me with a lump in my throat. No tears were shed by me. The idea of all the damage that can be done to spite someone is unsettling. The long well thought out slow reveal to abuse those around him in the most deliberate way possible. One sick kiddo. I felt the worst for Celia. I feel nothing much when it comes to Kevin. He had a depressing life, sure. If I ever met someone like him in life... I'd be like Eva. Wary and unsympathetic to his plight.

At the ending itself, I feel she is vindicated in her beliefs. Even though, yes, she was partly responsible for it. I also blame Franklin. He truly was unbelievable. A caricature of a dad who just misses the point entirely. I feel he is somehow even more responsible. His poor heart was in the right place. At least he didn't have to suffer much longer.

[(shan) Littlebookcove]

Monica I felt like that too glad I'm not the only one I found him to be really annoying.

[Pamellia]

I always hate when parents find excuses for every little thing their child does. Unfortunately I've been guilty of that...but sometimes I have felt like I'm the only child's advocate and certainly my child was nothing like Kevin.

[Kristy]

This book is easily in my top five favorites of all time. I found it to be nearly flawless on my first read and have read it 10 or 11 times since. I both loved and hated each character at different intervals and knowing the whole story does not change those feelings. I find Eva and Kevin both to be hugely fascinating.

When first I 'read' this book, it was the audio version read by Barbara Rosenblatt. Seriously, perfect narration. There is an interview at the end with Lionel Shriver that sheds a little more light on why things went the way they did. Lionel reminds us that the story is all from Eva's point of view and there are many clues, if you're looking for them, that Eva may not be the most reliable narrator.

I think if you look at all of these characters (those you love and those you hate) and recognize that you're only seeing them through someone else's eyes you may realize you are able to feel differently toward them. I guess I'm saying you shouldn't always take Eva's word as gospel.

Here's a nifty interview:

http://www.identitytheory.com/lionel-...

[Michael]

MiZzy wrote: "Monica I felt like that too glad I'm not the only one I found him to be really annoying."You are definitely not the only one who found Franklin annoying. By the end of the book, I wanted to throttle him.

[Monica]

I already want to and I'm half way through the book.

[Jon]

Hello all, finally got around to finishing this one today. Jotted a few thoughts down, which you can find right here if you're interested.

Now that I'm done I'll try to drop by and contribute a bit more to the discussion as we go along! :)

[Pamela]

Pamellia, yes if you feel you are the only advocate for a child. I can see how it could take on a life of its own. My only worry is when it gets to epic proportions. Like in the good son? The one with the home alone kid. I never want to be so in denial that I enable that kind of behavior. To be so blinded by love or just out of wishing it wasn't so.

Thank you Kristy for the insight that Eva wasn't a very reliable narrator. That makes it much better to me. Her honesty was flawed. Which makes all those cold hard facts rubbish now. It's through her lens of hindsight and self preservation. It gave me some hope that although something horrible happened. That maybe her family was better, all of them. Than who they are to her in those negative memories.

[Michael]

Jon, that is possibly one of the most succinct and spot on reviews of a book I've ever read.

[Jon]

Wow! Thank you, Michael!

[Nickronomicon]

Ok. I'm about 100 pages in, and it's becoming a real struggle. I get that I'm not supposed to like Eva, but wow is she getting annoying. Like "I don't care about this book anymore" annoying. I'm keeping up hope there is a payoff coming, but I'm getting frustrated. A great English teacher I had once told me, "If a book doesn't grab you by page 100, quit and read something else." Somebody give me some encouragement to keep going. Am I alone on this one?

[Marc-Antoine]

Nick, I'm at 238, i have been enjoying from the get go, I can't say the tone has changed though. According to some comments the story picks up around the 300 page mark, and the ending is worth the wait.

[Char]

Nick wrote: "Ok. I'm about 100 pages in, and it's becoming a real struggle. I get that I'm not supposed to like Eva, but wow is she getting annoying. Like "I don't care about this book anymore" annoying. I'm ke..."

IMO, the ending is worth the payoff. Also, the language settles down after about 100 pages or so. I didn't find myself consulting the dictionary as often after that point. I didn't like ANYBODY in this book, but I did begin to feel for them anyway as the story continued on.

[Jon]

I had the same problem up to that point Nick, but it does get easier from around there onwards.

Eva never really stops being annoying though - and, with only 120 pages left to go, I struggled to work up the enthusiasm to pick the book back up for 3 or 4 days. However, as both Marc-Antoine and Charlene have already said, the last 100 pages flies by. Once I did pick it back up, I couldn't put it down until it was over!

[Michael]

Nick wrote: "Ok. I'm about 100 pages in, and it's becoming a real struggle. I get that I'm not supposed to like Eva, but wow is she getting annoying. Like "I don't care about this book anymore" annoying. I'm ke..."I, too, felt the same way, but my annoyance with Eva was swamped by my annoyance with Franklin. I suspect what you think of the rest of the book will depend on what you think of how he behaves. That being said, the ending does nonetheless pack an emotional wallop.

[Nickronomicon]

Thanks for the opinions. I'll trust you all and stick with it. Nice to know my dictionary app will get a rest soon. I have a guess at how it's going to wrap up at the end. I'll keep it to myself to avoid potential spoilage, but I'll be honest and let you know how close i was when I'm finished. Thanks again.

[Char]

Nick wrote: "Thanks for the opinions. I'll trust you all and stick with it. Nice to know my dictionary app will get a rest soon. I have a guess at how it's going to wrap up at the end. I'll keep it to myself to..."

Yeah, I had an idea where it was going to go too. I was SO wrong. :)

[Marc-Antoine]

279 pages in (view spoiler)[ Kevin just got Eva to open up about what she dislikes about America, an the completely destroys everything she just said... "And just because you're skinny you act self~righteous - condescending - and superior. Maybe I'd rather have a big cow of a mother who at least didn't think she was better than everybody else in the fucking country." (hide spoiler)] Talk about hitting the nail right on the head!!!

[Jon]

Marc-Antoine wrote: "279 pages in [spoilers removed] Talk about hitting the nail right on the head!!!"

That's the thing I found particularly fascinating about Kevin - (view spoiler)[the fact that absolutely nothing has escaped his observation: he's got everyone figured out perfectly, but nobody can even begin to scratch his surface. (hide spoiler)]

[Robert]

Finished the audiobook on a long drive yesterday. I really enjoyed this one a lot more the second time - maybe I was just too distracted the first time. It really was tough going at first, but once Kevin was born it took off, and got more and more fascinating as it went on. The audio version has a great interview at the end with a lot of really good insights that hadn't occurred to me. I think th most fascinating thing to me was the fact that Kevin had so much more respect for Eva, who feared and distrusted him (because she really understood him), than he did for Franklin, who I think loved the idea of a son but never even bothered to actually try to get to know him. Sadly, there are too many parents like Franklin out there. I knew the ending, having listened before, but it didn't lessen the impaact any the second time around. I plan to listen to this one again in the future.

[Monica]

I have no ideas about the ending mmm

[Marc-Antoine]

306 pages in (view spoiler)[ Celia's account of what happened to her eye creeped me out. I now very much dislike Kevin! (hide spoiler)]

[Jon]

Marc-Antoine wrote: "306 pages in [spoilers removed]"

Yeah, (view spoiler)[I think if there was really still any ambiguity left as to whether Kevin was actually the monster Eva made him out to be, that was the final tipping point. As a parent, that whole part concerning Celia and the "bathroom incident" just made me feel completely sick to the stomach. (hide spoiler)]

[Cindy]

I had no idea this was the book of the month. I saw the movie a while back & I loved it! Can't wait to start reading the book :)

[Marc-Antoine]

Jon wrote: "Marc-Antoine wrote: "306 pages in [spoilers removed]"

Yeah, [spoilers removed]"

Exactly!

[Kasia]

I got this book when I saw that it won, read a few pages and didn't like it or feel much for it but reading all the comments here is making me want to just jump in and read it, great conversations you guys :)

[Jon]

Kasia wrote: "I got this book when I saw that it won, read a few pages and didn't like it or feel much for it but reading all the comments here is making me want to just jump in and read it, great conversations ..."

I think a few of us felt that way at first. I really had to push myself through the first hundred pages or so, but it did get easier after that point - enjoyable, even! :)

[Kasia]

Yeah, sometimes you simply have to read the sucker to find out if you eventually like it.

[Jon]

Kasia wrote: "Yeah, sometimes you simply have to read the sucker to find out if you eventually like it."

Absotively-posilutely! With you there; 100%. :)

[Marc-Antoine]

351 pages in, I have so much respect for people that decide to go into the teaching profession. It's a selfless job, and everything you do is criticized. My wife is a teacher and I don't know how she does it and keeps her sanity. Thank God, she's in grade school, I think I would go crazy reading this if she were teaching high school!

[Meli]

I'm late to the party. I just started and I'm about 10% -15% in. I'm finding it a bit drawn out and slow so far, but I'm going to stick with it.

[Marc-Antoine]

I'm done, and I'm giving it 5 stars. Although a disturbing book, and some times difficult to get through, it was a meaningful story that brought about some great discussions, I am certain that this is the type of story that will stay with me, haunt me if you will, for a very long time. It may just also make me a better parent for my children, and a better husband for my wife.

[Jez]

I read a while back. I have to admit I chewed it up in a couple of days; I found it absolutely gripping. What more can you say without spoilers... heart-wrenching horror.

[Nickronomicon]

I've been a good boy stuck with this book. Thanks to those who encouraged me to continue. I still find it difficult to read, but now I'm intrigued at how it's all going to end and getting some details about "Thursday." I'm just getting to the part (view spoiler)[where Eva gets pregnant again. (hide spoiler)] Even though it's difficult reading, and I'm not enjoying reading it, I can't wait to get back into the story to see what's going to happen. Anybody else get what I'm saying or an I being an oxymoron, emphasis on the .... nevermind

[Char]

I totally understand what you're saying. :)

[Sean]

Determined to finish. Thank goodness it is my first group read. In all honestly i would of put it down had it not been for all of your reviews promising a great ending.

[Missy]

I too am having a hard time trying to finish this book and am only trudging along because of the reviews on this page.

[Tressa]

Kasia wrote: "I got this book when I saw that it won, read a few pages and didn't like it or feel much for it but reading all the comments here is making me want to just jump in and read it, great conversations ..."

You really should read it, Kasia. I don't think you'll regret it. I don't remember being bothered at all by the style of the writing or how the story unfolded slowly with each chapter. I savored every single one on my quest to find out what happened to this family.

And I've never been one of those to not trust the narrator. If I'm telling a story, my side is the right one, lol. What happened happened just as I said it did, and my feelings at the time of whatever incident shouldn't be diminished just because I alone felt them. Facts are facts.

The thing that bothered me most about the book was (view spoiler)[Celia's eye injury. Come the fuck on. Nobody knows WTF went down in that bathroom? She loved/feared her brother so much even Mr. All American Father couldn't pry it out of her with Mickey Mouse pancakes on a Saturday morning before Kevin rolled out of bed? (hide spoiler)] Ugh. *shakes the stupid parents and slaps them in the face*

[Jon]

I re-watched the movie adaptation a few days back, and what struck me most was (view spoiler)[how much more of a sympathetic light the movie paints Eva compared to the book. In the movie there's zero ambiguity regarding past events, possibly because we're shown Eva's memories rather than trusting her (possibly biased) written account. And there's none of that seemingly endless monologue! :)

Also, the movie omits the parts from Kevin's childhood I found just a bit too implausible, which was a bonus. However, I didn't really feel that the growing division between Eva and Franklin over Kevin was highlighted nearly enough in the movie. And speaking of Franklin, I thought that John C. Reilly was an odd choice given the description of Franklin in the book: he's a very good actor, but to be brutally honest, he does look like a potato wearing a wig... (hide spoiler)]

[Tressa]

There's no way Tilda Swinton would marry John C. Reilly. ;-)

[Jon]

Tressa wrote: "There's no way Tilda Swinton would marry John C. Reilly. ;-)"

I have to agree with you! I couldn't help but feel awkward for both actors during the love scenes, hah. :)

[Tressa]

LOL! I felt for the viewers. *shudder*

This is who should have played Franklin:

[Nickronomicon]

I'm having a weird experience with this book. I'm so over Eva's pretentious writing (which i guess is the point) but I'm sucked into the story to see what happens. Just broke through to page 300 and read the part where (view spoiler)[ Kevin gets in trouble with the police and Franklin believes his story (hide spoiler)] I wanted to grab that guy and smack some sense into him. I mean, REALLY?!?!?!?! I can't decide which is worse, mom or dad. Though I'm still sticking with my thought that Eva is the "unreliable narrator."

[Jon]

Tressa wrote: "LOL! I felt for the viewers. *shudder*

This is who should have played Franklin:

"

You've hit the nail right on the head: he would have made a perfect Franklin! (And I think Tilda may well have thanked you for the re-casting, too! :) )

[Jon]

Nick wrote: "I'm having a weird experience with this book. I'm so over Eva's pretentious writing (which i guess is the point) but I'm sucked into the story to see what happens. Just broke through to page 300 an..."

I can only speak from own personal experience with the book, but I couldn't help but feel that both parents were utterly irresponsible in their own diametrically opposed ways.

(view spoiler)[I guess one of the key elements of this book is that we're left to make our own judgment in regards to where we think the responsibility for Kevin's actions should lie. (hide spoiler)]

[Tressa]

Jon wrote: "
You've hit the nail right on the head: he would have made a perfect Franklin! (And I think Tilda may well have thanked you for the re-casting, too! :) ) ..."

Ya think? LOL

[Tressa]

I find Eva very reliable, I mean, look how the story ends. She didn't make that stuff up.

[Michael]

Eckhart would have made an awesome Franklin. As for who was most irresponsible, I think it's Franklin who (view spoiler)[ A) overlooked everything Kevin did no matter how implausible and. B) treated his wife like she was crazy. At least recognized there was a problem, that she was at least partly to blame, and wanted to do something about it. (hide spoiler)]

[Tressa]

Good points, Michael. I didn't dislike Eva as a mother, but did as an in-law and one of those uppity Yuppies I steer clear of. IMO she started out motherhood with the same excitement that most pregnant women do, and the fact that nothing she could do to connect to her son destroyed her inside with each passing year. She tried to confront the behavioral problems head on, while Franklin continued his sunny denial.