September 2014 Group Read: We Need to Talk About Kevin by Lionel Shriver

[Sean]

Just picked up a copy tonight. Hopefully I can catch up. Liking it so far.

[Pamela]

My first group read in here. 38% in. Agree with some if you. Not liking any characters but enjoying the story overall. I do enjoy the big words though. It slows me down and I can picture it better. It's like gourmet food for the mind. But yea... no one would really talk or write letters like Eva. Feeling sorry for the whole lot of them. Nothing but misery here. Glad the nanny escaped! Hah.

[Marc-Antoine]

I'm at page 46, and have not gotten to the point where I hate any of the characters, I just pity Eva as she doesn't seem to know who she is, just playing a part of who she thinks she is supposed to be.

[Monica]

I switched to the italian version :D now everything is clear and interesting

[Robert]

I'm thinking this one really is more difficult in audio form, but I'm going to stick with it. While I agree that I feel more pity for Eva than anything else, it's a close call, because she comes across as such a pretentious windbag with the narrator chosen for the books, which I guess is sort of the point, but it doesn't make it any eassier to listen to it. :-)

[[deleted user]]

Even though I also find it frustrating, it does seem Eva's conceit demonstrated through her choice of words is intended, and I find it difficult to believe otherwise.

From what I've read so far, Kevin doesn't seem to match up to his age too well when he was incredibly young. Almost too "clever".

[Monica]

I'm reading some really nice ideas and concepts. I'm 50 pages in and Eva is not bothering me too much.

[Michael]

I found my feelings about Eva changed throughout the book. During the first half I grew increasingly annoyed with navel-gazing, her indecisiveness, and her whininess. But then as (view spoiler)[Franklin ignored every single sign his son was a raging psychopath despite his wife's constant warnings (hide spoiler)] I started to feel bad for her. Ultimately, however, I found that the author's extreme takes on all of her characters made me not believe what I was reading.

[Tiffany]

Just picked up a copy at the library tonight. I can hardly wait to start reading it!

[Walter]

Very impressed with this book thus far (at this point, Kevin is wearing Eva out with his infant tantrums).

Much of the time Eva does sound as though she's spent the last hour French kissing a thesaurus, but I think that's a deliberate technique by the author, as opposed just showing off either one's vocabulary. Helps create a bit of distance between Eva and the reader, reducing our natural empathy with her, making her personal take on things more objective than they might have been otherwise.

[Robert]

Walter, I agree, I'm sure it is entirely intentional, and your logic is sound. It sort of reminds me of American Psycho when you would get an exhaustive rundown of all the name brands present on the people in the room - there was definitly a point to it. But I read that one on paper, and could skim through those parts if I wanted to, and often did, but it's much tougher to skim an audiobook. :-) That's why I'm thinking this one is probably easier to read than to listen to.

[Dawn]

I'm only on page 57 but I'm liking it ok so far. Don't know how I feel about the "big words". I usually like a few as I feel I'm expanding my vocabulary but I'm almost looking up words on every page! Ha

[Sean]

Dawn wrote: "I'm only on page 57 but I'm liking it ok so far. Don't know how I feel about the "big words". I usually like a few as I feel I'm expanding my vocabulary but I'm almost looking up words on every pag..."

I agree they seem like needless fluff.

[Marc-Antoine]

I can really see that type of person writing that way, in my opinion the writing fits the character. I actually know some people that feel the need to communicate that way, they remind me of her...

[Marc-Antoine]

77 pages in, so far I'm very much enjoying the book, still pitying Eva and not hating the character. Impressed with all of the self awareness, and her being honest about it. I'm not even noticing the "big words" anymore and feel that the story is flowing nicely. To me, she is obviously someone who shouldn't of had children, but felt she had to do it out of duty. I wonder how many mothers like her are out there?

[Catster]

In the beginning I didn't like it at all, but now, being on page 300 I'm quite enjoying it. This will not be my favorite book, but it's a good read. I absolutely hate all the characters, but that's a good thing, means the author wrote them well :)

I'd love to chat and hear the opinion of someone who has children! Especially for the nature vs nurture question.

I'm actually at my parents this weekend, so I'll ask my mom if she ever dreaded me as baby, lol.

[Monica]

I agree with the fact that the writing fits the character of Eva. I'm enjoying it

[Pamellia]

Catherine, your mother is going to put her arms around you and say, "Oh, sweetie, how could you ask such a thing...I loved you more than you will ever know from the moment you were born (or is she is Catholic, she may say "conceived")"!!

Sometimes I wonder about the different economic morals of my children. I have two. Oldest a boy and then a girl. Only 22 months apart. I'm not sure what happened to my son, but I know I didn't raise them that differently. Son is a libertarian but is really into the free-market economics to the point of being a rebel. Daughter is more of a, well, Republican, when it comes to economics, I suppose.

So I don't know, Catherine. We can go by statistics, which tell us a productive citizen will be raised by 2 parents, male and female, has what he/she needs as a child but not overly indulged, be a sibling (not an only child), have good solid citizens as parents, have a college education, have a name that is socially acceptable, etc, etc. So often we do find crazy serial killers that do not fit into any of this criteria, raised by a single parent who was a drug addict, abused by their favorite uncle...on and on...but then we may find an outstanding citizen who has had an unspeakable childhood.

I think it all boils down to unconditional love. If a child is loved unconditionally by someone, maybe a sibling, then that child will grown to be a productive citizen. How much love did Kevin receive? Did he know he was loved? I'm not far enough in the book to tell you that. But I will be soon and I'll comment on this.

Catherine, I look forward to hearing what your mom says when you ask her the "dreaded" question.

BTW, this letter that Kevin's mother is writing to his father...she writes exactly like my older sister. So far, I don't dislike her (guess it's that family thing)

[Catster]

Pamellia, you're absolutely amazing! I really hoped for an input like that, thank you so much :) It's interesting how your kids tend to be completely different on certain issues, yet being raised in the same household. Any other significant differences between them?

I agree that even though the statistics approach shows that violence begets violence, so many murders are commited by people from normal and loving families. In this book I just wonder if Kevin became the way he was, because of Eva or because of his nature. Or both? Let's not forget about the forgiving "good cop" dad. Interesting part of the read, really thought-provoking :)

As to my mom's answer, she said I was a never crying baby, so she hasn't considered giving me away, but apparently I did freak her out during my imaginary friend phase.

[Tressa]

Scott wrote: "Interested to hear what people think. I read this last year and it has stuck with me ever since. I also will give a plug to the movie and suggest watching after reading. I thought they would rui..."

I liked the movie too, although I though John C. Reilly was way wrong for the All-American golly-gee type dad I pictured.

[Tressa]

11811 (Eleven) wrote: "I'm not participating in the read but I am in the discussion. Is that even allowed? It shouldn't be.

No spoilers - I think most of the people who don't care for it will feel the same way I did. ..."

I loved the slow reveal of all the events, and I kept wondering the whole time (view spoiler)[where the dad and daughter were. The suspense really got to me because I kept picturing them dying in horrible ways. And at times I pictured them still living, away from Kevin and the mother. So it was all up in the air to me. (hide spoiler)]

[Tressa]

About Eva despising the baby: she may have despised the baby because he was born a bad seed and had no love for her or anyone. And there was that touching scene when Kevin was a small, sick child, (view spoiler)[so sick he allowed himself to be mothered and treated with TLC by Eva. Then when he got well, he resorted back to the cold Kevin. That part was wrenching to me. What can you do when you desire your son to love you so much and he doesn't? (hide spoiler)]

[Tressa]

In case anyone cares, Shriver's second book sucks!

[Walter]

Just came across another memorable quote:

"In a country that doesn't discriminate between fame and infamy, the latter presents itself as plainly more achievable."

[Pamellia]

Tressa, sounds like the book made a big impression on you. I have only read a small bit and like it already. Hoping to finish soon.

[Char]

I like that one, Walter.

[Catster]

Deborah wrote: "Catherine wrote: "In the beginning I didn't like it at all, but now, being on page 300 I'm quite enjoying it. This will not be my favorite book, but it's a good read. I absolutely hate all the char..."

Wow, Deborah, thank you so much on sharing! :) I bet it was hard to open up like this. It must've been even harder raising a child that just doesn't seem to love back. I'm glad she got back to the caring state, I'm just curious if there's anything that triggered it. (It sounds a lot like the scene with Kevin getting ill for short time).

I know you said you loved this book, but could you say a little bit more? Did you find a lot of scenes you could relate to? What did you think of Eva?

[Greg]

I started the book on Saturday and have only read a few pages so far. Although I like the descriptive prose and its cynical humour, I dont think the epistolary format is authentic. The text is too well edited - there are no typos, grammatical slips or allusions to past events that are not explained (along the lines of 'Remember that time when Aunt Jemima came for dinner?' as something that explains a point because Eva's husband would know what she was referring to).

So, I would very much agree with what Jon (from the UK) says:

Jon wrote: "I'm finding the letter-writing format a bit clumsy when it comes to exposition - why would she write to Franklin with detailed accounts of events where he was present anyway (like from his own childhood)? It feels a little forced. I know the author wants us to get a complete view of everything from Eva's perspective, but it might have made more sense to have a few chapters written in third person to fill in the details that just look downright weird put down in a letter! :) "

Perhaps if the book included Eva's diary/journal entries where she muses about things that happened in the past, or entries from past diaries are used to fill in some of the background information, the text of the book might work better. Perhaps even better again, Shriver could've written the book as Eva's memoir with Eva attempting to set the record straight from her perspective (even if it turns out that her narrative is at least partly dishonest).

Maybe the author's intention is to show that Eva is very intelligent and well-educated but is emotionally detached, and that we are possibly expected to draw conclusions from this regarding the behaviour of Eva's son, Kevin. If this is the case, I think it could've been handled more subtly. That said, this is just my first impression of the book so my views may change as I read more.

As for Jon's comment that there's "Way too much upper-middle class pomposity", I guess I'll have to read more and see whether I agree with him.

Regarding the (British) edition I'm reading - We Need to Talk About Kevin - I'm at a loss as to why the publisher thought that the book needed a two-page 'introduction' by Kate Mosse, the thrust of which seems to have been to inform readers that the book is already a 'classic' and thus a piece of 'literature'. Surely the novel can stand on its own merits without anyone telling us how we should regard it?

[Greg]

I wonder, by the way, if it's a good idea for people to discuss their own children, spouses/partners, siblings and other people close to them in a thread like this. On the one hand, what if the relative concerned discovered the comments about them (if not now, perhaps in the future) and didn't like what they saw (either because the comments were negative or because they made public matters which they thought were private and personal)?

On the other, it makes discussing the novel in an objective way more difficult since a comment could end up being interpreted as a personal attack on someone's kids or the way they were raised, for example.

With just under 9,500 members this is a very public forum. Members can share the content of posts and threads with non-members, thereby expanding the total number of potential readers considerably. Also, our most recent comments can be read by friends on our profiles. Obviously, it's up to every poster to post whatever they want to say but I would recommend caution so that comments don't come back to bite you.

[Marc-Antoine]

I agree wholeheartedly with Greg's above post.

[Deborah]

I apologize to anyone who felt I "overshared" in my reply to Catherine. Part of the appeal to me of discussing a book like this is to explore how it relates to my own life and that of others who may have had similar (or contrary) experiences. Nevertheless, I have deleted my comment and will avoid personal comments in the future.

[Tressa]

Deborah, please share what YOU want to share with us. You know what you're doing better than anyone who happens to read your comments. I didn't get to read exactly what you posted, but I got the gist of it from Catherine's comment, and thank you for taking the time to explain in a very real way how the story affected you as a mother because of your similar experience. I don't think it's my job to remind someone that GR is a public forum; she's well aware of that. That experience belongs to her as much as it does to the other person. If it is cathartic for her to share with us, then let her share.

And you can uncheck the Add to my Update Feed so your comment stays in this thread and is not seen by other friends not involved in the discussion. Yes, technically everything we post has the potential to be seen by the world, but, really, I don't think we have to worry about every word we post.

[Catster]

Deborah, I'm very sorry for getting you in trouble, that was not my intention.

At this point I'm very disappointed in this group. Greg, this is a book discussion and for me the way we address and perceive some aspects or topics is strictly related to our personal experiences, hence why I asked for those. I'm deeply saddened that it's now not in good taste for a grown woman to share her personal stories with us. It's her decision and she doesn't need a good advice uncle to tell her what she should or shouldn't do. Recent events have proven yet again that nothing is safe on the internet, even private im conversations, so please let's not be prudes with clearly not impeccable Internet history.

[Tressa]

I am disappointed too, and we should not feel that we have to censor our posts for any reason. I have a son who is the joy of my life, and he has some mild Asperger's qualities. Do you know how heartbroken I was for years that he would not tell me he loved me—even though I knew he did—unless I told him first? Other kids would throw their arms around their moms and dads and kiss all over them and tell them how much they loved them and draw pictures for them and write stories for them. My son is a gentle, loving, bright sweetheart who is unlike Kevin in every way, but I shed more tears than I would like to say over the years wondering why my son chose not to—or couldn't—express his love for me like I assumed all kids should. And if he happens to read this years from now, it will not be something that I haven't been afraid to share with him also.

Also, I have shared my experiences with my PPD here and on other forums and have comforted other women going through the same thing and feeling tremendous guilt.

Let everyone share what they feel they need to share in the ways they choose.

[Marc-Antoine]

No one needs to abstain from writing what they want, I'm just thinking that I wouldn't want my parents to share certain personal things about me without my blessing.

[Scott]

Deborah...I agree with Tressa and others. Continue to post whatever you like...as it realates to the book and your personal life experiences. That's what goodreads is all about. I especially think those comments are appropriate with this read. One of the fascinating threads of this novel is the main character's relationship with motherhood. This was the first book I read where a female character went against the grain of natural motherhood instincts. I thought Shriver was brave to tackle this concept and really created a strong character that you sometimes sympathized with, sometimes hated and sometimes felt indifferent towards. I agree the style and prose is not the best I've read...but it stayed with me for months. I couldnt ask for more from a book.

[Catster]

Marc-Antoine wrote: "No one needs to abstain from writing what they want, I'm just thinking that I wouldn't want my parents to share certain personal things about me without my blessing."

But your parents already do! And so all do of our parents. You have a higher chance of eavesdropping on your mom complaining to your neighbor about your behavior, rather than finding a post on a book reading forum.

I just believe that everyone has the right to share what they want with us and don't need to be cautioned. Especially in a thread on personal experience on a book.

Let's get back on topic though. I just finished it today and rated it as 3. I watched the movie some time and I think it spoiled the book for me, didn't get the wow factor I expected.

[Tressa]

If a person combs through GR to find out what personal stuff his mother/father/sibling/boss/whatever is posting about them, they can take it up with that person. What does it matter? We don't know the person mentioned so they are anonymous to us. For all I know my mother, who has never been on The Facebook and never will, yaks about my personal stuff to her friends on the phone. *shrugs shoulders* That's her prerogative because she raised me and has to deal with me for the rest of her life. If I found out and didn't like it, I'd take it up with her and maybe she would respect my wishes and not yak about my life to people who barely know me. But knowing my little Cajun mother, maybe not.

I empathized with Eva as a mom, but could not stand her ass as a daughter-in-law. I hated the way she treated her husband's parents, who were good people. What an elitist biotch who expects people to only create topics of conversation that interests her. Ugh.

Some people have mentioned Franklin's head-in-the-sand way of parenting. But, come on, don't we all know parents like this? "You mean my sweet little Johnny went on a rampage through town with his high school buddies smashing out car windows? No, never could happen. He's an angel." And Kevin didn't treat Franklin the same way he treated his mother, so Franklin saw him in a different light and put the blame on Eva.

[Marc-Antoine]

Catherine wrote: "Marc-Antoine wrote: "No one needs to abstain from writing what they want, I'm just thinking that I wouldn't want my parents to share certain personal things about me without my blessing."

But your..."

Listen, I respect everyone's right to express what they want to, please respect my right to caution people that this is a public forum, that may get to the people they are writing about, if I choose to. I'm just trying to be a good guy here. I've known a few people that have regretted what they have done online in the past, which have cost them friends or even marriages, as sometimes we forget that this stuff gets out. I've said my piece and now I am done, so go on and write what you all want.

I am still very much enjoying this book, and am really enjoying this thread.

[Alissa]

Just finished the book. Wow. Did not see that ending coming. Interesting

[Marc-Antoine]

166 pages in, according to Eva's letters, it seems like Kevin has been evil from the get go. Is that possible? Or would that be learned behaviour?

[Pamellia]

Marc-Antoine wrote: "166 pages in, according to Eva's letters, it seems like Kevin has been evil from the get go. Is that possible? Or would that be learned behaviour?"

I've always wondered if it is really possible to be a "Bad Seed" (one of my favorite classic movies). Can someone truly be born without the ability to know right from wrong and if such a person could exist would they always be evil. Instead of random acts of violence, why couldn't they perform random acts of kindness?? I'm just wondering...seems to me it could go either way, if the Bad Seed theory is true.

[Monica]

I'm 120 pages in and I'm really enjoying. I don't feel like blaming Eva at all for not wanting to be a parent. I'm hating little Kevin instead..evil!

[Walter]

Marc-Antoine wrote: 166 pages in, according to Eva's letters, it seems like Kevin has been evil from the get go. Is that possible? Or would that be learned behaviour?

According to David Eagleman's book, Incognito: The Secret Lives of the Brain, the short answer to that question would be yes, it is possible to be 'evil' (defining the term as a reckless disregard for the lives and well-being of others) from the beginning. Human psychology is a product of many forces, including (but not limited to) the chemical soup making up any given human brain, or the chemicals it has been exposed to, as well as any inherited traits which grow dominant over time due to natural selection.

I also believe it's possible for 'evil' to be learned behavior. One example: via truly monstrous child abuse I think one can damage, or even destroy, a child's natural empathy for others.

As an aside, I've never understood the linguistic rationale behind the 'nature vs nurture' conundrum, as if one is postulating an 'either/or' scenario. Seems to me that (except in the rarest of circumstances) both play a role; it's only a question of individual percentages.

[Tiffany]

I'm only 24 pages in and I can't put the book down.

[Char]

Walter said: As an aside, I've never understood the linguistic rationale behind the 'nature vs nurture' conundrum, as if one is postulating an 'either/or' scenario. Seems to me that (except in the rarest of circumstances) both play a role; it's only a question of individual percentages

One thing about this book that I loved is the discussions about nature vs. nurture that inevitably come up, be it an item of percentages or not. (view spoiler)[ Is Kevin just a bad seed? Is it because, somehow, he sensed his mother did not want or love him? (hide spoiler)]

[Michael]

Tressa said, Some people have mentioned Franklin's head-in-the-sand way of parenting. But, come on, don't we all know parents like this? "You mean my sweet little Johnny went on a rampage through town with his high school buddies smashing out car windows? No, never could happen. He's an angel." And Kevin didn't treat Franklin the same way he treated his mother, so Franklin saw him in a different light and put the blame on Eva.

I'm one of those people who has mentioned Franklin's behavior and I definitely know parents who are unaware of how their children behave. Franklin made sense to me for a while, but once his other child had (view spoiler)[lost an eye to Kevin's machinations (hide spoiler)] Franklin became either incredibly unlikable because he was so willfully blind or the worst parent ever because he was sooo unobservant. I would've found his character much more believable if he had indicated some question/doubts about his son even just once. Instead, everyone, including his wife that he otherwise loves and respects, were simply out to get his son.

Clearly, that didn't bother a lot of people, but it definitely detracted from opinion of the book.

[Dana *]

For anyone having trouble reading the book, I would TOTALLY recommend the audio version. Even it is a bit hard to get into in the beginning, but is riveting in the end. I found the characters to be very real and believable, which was upsetting. Not everyone is cut out to be a parent, or a decent human for that matter. I think as much as you resent and are annoyed with Eva at the beginning, you see her a bit differently at the end. Not redeemed, but human. The movie is a recommend also. Very moody. Although I have to say the casting of John C Reilly was way off to me. Just doesn't seem like a person that would be married to the Eva character.

I felt very ill sometimes listening to the story. It pulls on all your doubts about parenting. It tore my heart out.

[Robert]

Yeah, now that the story is starting to move, I'm getting into the audiobook more. For a lot of the first part she just seemed to be rambling and there really was no story to speak of, and I just wanted her to put down the thesaurus and get on with it already. :-) I'm sure the point was to get to know her as a person before even the idea of kids came along. I'm driving 4+ hours tomorrow, then again Thursday, so I should be quite a bit further along by the end of the week. I'm finding her descriptions of her interactions with Franklin and the infant Kevin fascinating.

[Monica]

I'm hating how Franklin justifies everything Kevin does