"Catseye" Full Discussion *Spoilers*

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

One more SFWA Grand Master on our shelves! This author is beloved, and I know there were some mixed reactions, so when you tell us what you think, I'd love it if you could say something that you liked or that you learned which was cool as well as whatever else you'd like to say.

[Christopher]

Overall, this story felt a bit dated (I could easily imagine this as an old radio drama) and for the most part I was forcing myself to trudge through it. That said, here are a few points of interest:

- After doing some research it seems that Norton definitely had recurring themes which show up in this book. For example her NYT obituary describes her first science fiction novel, “Star Man’s Son, 2250 AD” (1952) as follows: “Fors, a mutant rejected by a postwar society because of his differences goes in search of a lost city rumored to be free of radiation. Accompanied by a cat with which he communicates telepathically, Fors discovers his own worth through a string of difficult tests.” Sounds familiar! Her Wikipedia entry has a “Recurring motifs” section, many of which appear in “Catseye” if this is something that interests you.

- One scene that stood out to me as being really good was when Troy is captured and taken to the lair of the main villain. The villain’s menagerie of grotesque sea creatures, with a transparent throne tank filled with them really set a creepy vibe, reminiscent of a Bond baddie. I liked how he was manipulative and thought baiting Troy with the life he thought he’d never reclaim would be more persuasive than any sort of physical pressure. The visual of him forcing his pet to strain for a treat sticks in my mind and was referred to a few times later in the text. I enjoyed how during this whole encounter and the events leading up to it Norton obfuscates the readers knowledge of what’s going on, we only perceive what Troy can through blindfolds and then she even shields his mind from us as we don’t know whether he’s taken the bait or not.

- The scenes in the underground alien environment reminded me a little of Annihilation (VanderMeer).

- At the end when Troy is concentrating on his telepathy the area around his eyes darken and I found that to be a cool visual as well. Growing up reading comic books it would be uncommon to demonstrate a character using an ability by changing their eyes (either glowing, becoming all white, etc).

[Gabi]

I must admit that I love reading those "dated" novels from time to time, so I was rather enjoying Norton's style. And I learned something new: kinkajou. It's a completely different name in German (Wickelbär).

Of course I liked the animal protagonists.
Yet all the time I had the feeling that there could have been done so much more with this idea. The story felt quite flat for me.

[Christopher]

One thing that just occurred to me, are there actually zero female human characters in this book?

[Gabi]

Christopher wrote: "One thing that just occurred to me, are there actually zero female human characters in this book?"

There was the one they were selling the foxes to, but that's it.

[CBRetriever]

Christopher wrote: "One thing that just occurred to me, are there actually zero female human characters in this book?"

just the one mentioned by Gabi, but as Norton's original target for her books were young males, that makes sense.

"Born Alice Mary Norton, she adopted the pen name Andre Norton, which she made her legal name in 1934, after publishers told her that a masculine-sounding name would help sell her books to boys, who constituted the target audience."

Later on, she has lots of strong female characters including some books where the main character was female: Forerunner and Year of the Unicorn (lots of the Witch World books have strong female protagonists)

[Ariana]

I really liked the middle third of the book where the main character and the animals are developing some real relationships as they explore the creepy ruins.

I thought the aspect of the Ranger's job where in order to protect the wild, they need to keep the rich muckety-mucks happy was particularly bleak and pragmatic.

Overall I found this pretty enjoyable especially after getting used to the style of exposition.

[HeyT]

I was sold on this book as soon as I read the awe and reverance Kyger had when announcing he had imported TERRAN CATS!
I think I liked this because who wouldn't want to be immersed in the pov of someone who can actually communicate with animals?

[Paul]

Christopher wrote: - "One scene that stood out to me as being really good was when Troy is captured and taken to the lair of the main villain. The villain’s menagerie of grotesque sea creatures, with a transparent throne tank filled with them really set a creepy vibe, reminiscent of a Bond baddie."

I totally agree. The imagery of the chair was very fun to imagine.

Christopher wrote: - "I enjoyed how during this whole encounter and the events leading up to it Norton obfuscates the readers knowledge of what’s going on, we only perceive what Troy can through blindfolds and then she even shields his mind from us as we don’t know whether he’s taken the bait or not."

This was a very fun portion of the story.

There were many high points in the book. Troy is a very compelling character that is just trying to get out of a bad situation, but keeps his morals even when we're not sure if he's going to. I also like that many of the characters, including Troy, were androgynous enough that they could easily have been female without taking away from the story. It didn't feel like Norton was pushing hard on any stereotypes.[/i]

The whole concept was pretty interesting too. The intelligent and telepathic animals reverently from Terra being used as a weapon. The ambiguity of what exactly is going on made for some good suspense and was believable.

The story had a lot of threads that were left to the imagination. This was both good and bad. It's good that the story acknowledged that interesting things can be going on without having to tie into the main character's journey. It's bad because I was interesting to know what exactly was happening in the alien dome. I wanted to know what the rangers were really up to. What where the implications of the animals' missions while under control?

Overall though, I didn't really enjoy the read too much because of the writing style. It was a bit like someone who is talking fast and has a hard time staying on one topic. This probably speaks more to my lack of attention than Norton's storytelling, but it wasn't a good match for me.

I'm a little curious if the 3 other Dipple books fill in some of the mysteries left from the story, but not enough to give them a read.

[Kristin B.]

Paul wrote: "The story had a lot of threads that were left to the imagination. This was both good and bad. It's good that the story acknowledged that interesting things can be going on without having to tie into the main character's journey. It's bad because I was interesting to know what exactly was happening in the alien dome. I wanted to know what the rangers were really up to. What where the implications of the animals' missions while under control?..."

You know, this normally drives me nuts. I usually finish a book and grumble about the loose ends. I just realized that I had forgotten all about those other story-lines until you mentioned it. I'm not entirely sure why it didn't bother me here. I think it is because I really just cared about the animals. Which is usually true for stories that I read that have prominent animal characters. Humans are so much less interesting in comparison. :)

[Oleksandr]

I've finished it and I like it. For me this is one of fantasy books mascarading as SF because the latter market was bigger - just look: ancient ruins, summoning of daemons, who hunt on living, magic abilities, spells, which paralyse, etc - the writer clearly doesn't care why it is so, but brings interesting images in abundance.

Also, I'd like to ask native speakers, is her usage of words unique, or it is my limited knowledge of English literature. Here are three examples with underlined words, which, while common, I've never saw used this way:

All the fantastic tales that had been told of this place were peopling the dusk Troy faced with a myriad of nightmares

The gray-blue cat had finished its meal and was looking over the good paw, raised to its mouth for a tonguing, at Troy.

Troy seesawed between one plan and the other

I'd assume that populated, licking, ruminated respectively would be more common

[CBRetriever]

peopling isn't very common, but is used
seesawed is very common because most playgrounds in the US have seesaws
tonguing is not very common

[Oleksandr]

CBRetriever wrote: "peopling isn't very common, but is used
seesawed is very common because most playgrounds in the US have seesaws
tonguing is not very common"

Thanks for the info. and what about her prose in general, does it feel distinct?

[CBRetriever]

that's hard to say for me because I first read her books back in the 1960s, so they're part of my growing up. I like almost all of them, but steer clear of the ones co-written (almost completely written in most cases) with another person. She, like James Patterson, has a lot of books where her name is on the book, but someone else wrote them.

The Key of the Keplian by Andre Norton and Lyn McConchie

[Dawn F]

English language has this wonderful habit of making verbs out of nouns. Just look at googling, or to xerox something (photocopying). There’s a masquerade but you can also masquerade. You can eat a sandwich but you can also sandwich something between other things, or even *be* sandwiched. It’s one of my favorite things about English, as we can’t, or don’t, do it in Danish (it would just sound clumsy).

[Rachel]

It was a pleasure to read! I don't remember if I read it in the far past or not. It follows one of Norton's formulas, as it has a young adult protagonist who is struggling as part of an underclass and who has some kind of psi power, and there are ruins left by an old race.

[CBRetriever]

Dawn wrote: "English language has this wonderful habit of making verbs out of nouns. Just look at googling, or to xerox something (photocopying). There’s a masquerade but you can also masquerade. You can eat a ..."

the one that really bothers me is "grow the company"

edit to add "one"

[Amanda]

It was rough going at first but definitely picked up plot-wise around the halfway point. The part where they were making their way through the ruins, especially watching Troy get to know the animals, and considering how human society would react to their abilities. Specifically, the mentions of the shifting balance of power caught my eye as something that has universal relevance.

Ultimately though, the writing style just wasn't for me. The action scenes were hard to follow and there were other bits I found myself having to re-read a few times just because I lost focus.

[Dawn F]

@Amanda you stole the words right out of my mouth. Thst’s pretty much exactly how I felt.

I thought her writing was a bit clumsy in places, perhaps because I’m so used to the beautiful easy flow of Le Guin and was just swallowed up by the lyrical prose of Guy Gavriel Kay a week ago, haha. And fight scenes just bore me. I liked it overall, though, but there was no wow factor for me. I can see why younger me would have liked her, though.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Did it feel like one of those nature documentaries we used to have to watch in school to anyone else? 60s or 70s polyphonic theme music, grainy footage of a jungle?

Morgan Freeman-like voice saying, "The kinkajou has a strong, prehensile tail and telepathic powers."

[Dawn F]

Hahaha yes, I think it had about the right amount of lecturing dryness about it!

[Kristin B.]

Allison wrote: "Morgan Freeman-like voice saying, "The kinkajou has a strong, prehensile tail and telepathic powers." ..."

I would watch the hell out of that documentary.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

haha!

[Cheryl]

I too had trouble with the style. All storytelling, all adventure, very little character development. Maybe if it were *L*iterature I would expect things to be alluded to, expect things to be oblique, expect loose ends... but it's just an adventure and I don't feel like I should have to work to get more out of it.

I agree that it was 'flat' and 'dry' and had more potential than what was delivered.

I think that I would have liked it more if it were told in first person. After all, we only know one character's perspective and it's basically his story....

I'm glad it was short and I will not be reading more by the author.

[Phillip]

I compared this book to oatmeal in my review. There's nothing wrong with oatmeal, but people don't dream of the next time they get to eat it. This story was bland. Nothing great nor terrible stood out for me.

[Cheryl]

To be honest, I did like the idea of Horan's insistence on "we" and his developing awareness that man is not superior to enhanced Terran critters... but again, so much more could have been done with that.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I've only read this and Zero Stone by Norton. How do folks feel these works compare to her overall oeuvre, if you've read others by her?

And I would classify this now as more YA/middle grade, but I don't see it listed anywhere in that category. What do folks think?

[Cheryl]

I don't know why it would be YA (no romance) or MG (no reference to parents). Yes, it's short and clean. But there are no children, there is no school or apprenticeship or coming-of-age or friendships/ rivalries or anything else typically found in 'juveniles.'

What am I missing? Why do some want to classify this as Juv.?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I know you read a lot in those categories, Cheryl! Is that what the dominant thinking is on the distinction between adult and juvenile?

The themes of a young person coming into their own life and power, forming bonds with animal companions to stop a fairly low stakes event with friendship and clean language, plus an author-verified focus on appealing to boys are the sorts of things that make it feel younger to me, I think. But perhaps you're right, it's just that it's short and clean so it doesn't "fit" into what I see most often!

[Oleksandr]

Cheryl wrote: "I don't know why it would be YA (no romance) ."

Ok, while boxing into categories is subjective, I don't equal YA and Romance. For me, YA is new marketing term for juveniles - and e.g. in most RAH's juveniles there were no romance. Ditto in the first books of the Harry Potter, which were one of the starters for YA.

For me YA means no excesses (sexual abuse, torture) and usually no extremely deep political/social issues/themes.

[Anna]

We could probably discuss what YA is until the end of time. For me YA today means unique snowflake girls feeling angsty about how they're not at all beautiful and how many boys want to kiss them. It's almost a genre instead of an age range. Then there are books that were written for younger audiences, but don't fit this kissy, angsty box. Two completely different things to me.

[CBRetriever]

Allison wrote: "I've only read this and Zero Stone by Norton. How do folks feel these works compare to her overall oeuvre, if you've read others by her?"

The Witch World series is probably her best known work other than The Beast Master and that last was only because of the TV series that was loosely based on it.

Good article by Martha Wells on Andre Norton

http://www.andre-norton-books.com/ind...

and a review of Witch World by Judith Tarr

http://www.andre-norton-books.com/ind...

[Phillip]

Allison wrote: "I've only read this and Zero Stone by Norton. How do folks feel these works compare to her overall oeuvre, if you've read others by her?

And I would classify this now as more YA/middle grade, but ..."

I can see it as middle grade in the same vein that The Hobbit is middle grade. It's simplistic story telling with minimal adult themes. I think Catseye fits that definition. I would have no issues letting my nine-year-old read it.

[Michael]

I just finished the book and stopped by to post my thoughts. I really liked the story, but I freely admit I was a huge fan of the author when I was younger so some of my enjoyment may be attributable to nostalgia.

The book contains many of the same themes found in her other books. The protagonist who is a loner of outcast. Extinct(?) alien civilization which predated humanities entry to the galactic stage. Animal companions and mysterious links between them and the protagonist.

The story may seem short and perhaps simplistic to a modern reader but that was not unusual at the time it was written, and the target audience was probably younger teens. Indeed, most of her books were shelved in the "juvenile" section of my town library, wedged between the children's books and adult selections.

[Kate]

I remember reading the Witch World Series when I was younger(teenager) and was looking forward to reading this one. This book did nothing for me. I really did not like the writing style. The animals were interesting but I would have liked more detail about them. Her style does not appeal to me anymore.

[Cheryl]

Anna wrote: "We could probably discuss what YA is until the end of time. For me YA today means unique snowflake girls..."

I pretty much agree, on both counts. :smile:

I'd suggest that we consider why we're asking the question, especially in the case of this book. Why do we think it matters, in this case?

(Oh, and if the protag is indeed sub-adult, I totally missed that. After all, he was on his own, and doing fairly well, all things considered. If someone has a quote that claims his youth, I'd like to read it.)

[Chris]

Cheryl wrote: "I don't know why it would be YA (no romance) or MG (no reference to parents). Yes, it's short and clean. But there are no children, there is no school or apprenticeship or coming-of-age or friendships/ rivalries or anything else typically found in 'juveniles.' "

I noticed this too, but not in the context of book categories. I just thought it was strange that Troy wasn't connected to anyone living. There were passing references to (dead?) parents. The guy in the thieves' guild is a mere acquaintance. Does Troy not have any friends, surrogate family, mentor, love interest, or enemy in the Dipple?

[Anna]

I saw people saying this was YA before I started it myself, so I paid attention to any hints about his age. All I remember now is that it was ten (or twelve?) years after he left [planet_name] and he was old enough to participate in [whatever_it's_called], so I thought it meant he had to be at least 18, most likely 20+.

Sorry, I remember next to nothing about the book.

[CBRetriever]

Anna wrote: "We could probably discuss what YA is until the end of time. For me YA today means unique snowflake girls feeling angsty about how they're not at all beautiful and how many boys want to kiss them. I..."

that's more a current "definition" of the term. When I was a pre-teen or teenager, a lot of Norton, Nourse, and Heinlein books were classified that way. Classics in the Genre were:

The Red Badge of Courage
White Fang
The Witch of Blackbird Pond
Anne of Green Gables

it was in the 80s that it seemed to switch to more of what you describe.

Back to Catseye, he definitely was an orphan and a street kid/teenager/young adult:

"Catseye offers a young Nordic protagonist (in so many words: he’s from a ranching world called Norden) named Troy Horan. His world was conquered and its people dispossessed; his father died in the war and his mother, as usual, is conveniently dead. "

plus it seemed that he formed no ties with anyone (loner), but the book in the first few pages described him as a lanky adolescent

[Anna]

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Catseye can't be labeled YA today, because (to me) it doesn't mean at all the same thing as books for younger readers.

But if it does say he's adolescent, then I was wrong with my logic. Maybe he was a very mature 6yo when he left Norden.

[Anna]

I digged the book out to check the terms. Troy talks about having been a herd rider on Norden, and he left Norden ten years ago. So my logic is that a herd rider would probably have to be a pre-teen at least. That's why I guess he had to be 18-24.

Not that it matters, I agree that it's simplistic and suitable for readers of all ages. At least those who don't fall asleep very easily.

[Michael]

Cheryl wrote: "I don't know why it would be YA (no romance) or MG (no reference to parents). Yes, it's short aAndre Nortonnd clean. But there are no children, there is no school or apprenticeship or coming-of-age or friendsh..."

As other's have said, the idea that YA=Teen Romance is a fairly recent divergence of the genre. Robert Heinlein's famous "juveniles" contain little or no real romance, but they are definitely written for the teem audience. The same can be said of much of Andre Norton's books. Indeed I've read that she chose her masculine nom de plume specifically to make her books more attractive to teen boy, who were seen as her target audience for books like this.

My own remembrance as a teen in the 60-70's was that "juvenile" books of that time were more often than not simple adventure stories with relatively young protagonists.

[CBRetriever]

in Norton's time when she wrote that book, an adult would be 21, possibly 18 (doubtful), but an 18-19 yo would still fit the bill

however in going back to Amazon and looking at that passage, it said he was a lanky adolescent when he was on his own with no idea of how long that time period was

[Michelle]

I really loved the first 2/3 of this book, with the description of what life was like on the poor side of town, and Troy's efforts to both take care of and then get to know these intriguing animals that have finally given some color to his life. Ironically, it was about the time that the plot felt the need to show up 2/3 of the way through, where he was running away with a stolen flitter to wander in some ancient ruins, that my interest waned.

This appealed to me as much for what it wasn't as what it was. The backstory of intergalactic warfare and entire populations shuttled off to refugee camps to end up as 4th class non-citizens felt a heck of a lot more mature than I would have been expecting by a "juvenile" categorization for this book. Usually in YA tales, a character's plain beginnings is simply a springboard to launch a "chosen one" type story where the unexpectedly gifted protag levels up every few chapters, a la Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter. Troy gets one cool power, which he's still trying to figure out by the end of the book, and which doesn't turn him into a formidable hero warrior instantly. Loose plot ends drive me nutso too, Kristin, but here it felt completely reasonable. This is a nobody from the wrong side of town, and him being unable to sort out high-level political machinations (like the spy goals his animals were to be put to) absolutely makes sense.

I agree completely with Troy's age estimate in the 20s - he's old enough that he has to show up on a work line daily, but he also had enough years with his parents to learn honor and ambition and patience to work toward a good job, not just a quick one.

[Cheryl]

To me it seems like some of the readers who are classifying this as 'juvenile' are ghettoizing it. As if SF pulp fiction isn't genre ghetto enough.

Point is, it's a fast read with a straightforward message. For all ages. Which makes it of more value than innumerable formula best-sellers marketed to adults, whether published in the seventies or today.

I just finished Deathworld 1 by Harry Harrison for another group. Again, fast-paced action, youngish hero who finds purpose in life, theme simple and frankly stated... I wonder how many readers in that group will agree with me if I choose to describe that book as a 'juvenile' - ?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Oh gosh, I didn't mean to disparage it or anyone who enjoyed it! I was hoping to have a conversation about who we thought the audience was and maybe what's changed in how we think about books and who they're for :-) I am sorry if anyone felt judgment in that.

[CBRetriever]

I didn't, but I do admit to having a smidge of an "that's YA, and not meant for adults"tendency to steer clear of current books classified that way. I tend to feel the same way about cozy mysteries too, especially those with the word "cozy" in their title.

[Mary]

Yeah, it's a juvenile, not an YA. I read a lot of those back when I was a juvenile myself, and it was perfectly typical to feature an actual, albeit young, adult as the main character. It would be the clean and the coming-of-age plot that marked them out as juveniles.

Although it was not unknown for a book to be published at different time marketing to the adults one and to juveniles another.

[Cheryl]

Mary wrote: "Although it was not unknown for a book to be published at different time marketing to the adults one and to juveniles another. ..."

Yes. Still happens. Consider Harry Potter. Or, in a way, "Uprooted."

I just don't understand why the label would matter, or why we might think it would help us to understand more of the value or depth of the book.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Again, I am interested in trends! I am curious what was "intended" for one thing or another and if we feel that's changed, as something of interest to me, personally. Also, the group doesn't allow "juvenile" books onto its shelves, so I will be honest that part of what I'm gauging is whether this is a good fit and what that says about future mod options/decisions on nominated books :)

I did not enjoy this book overly, it's true, but not because of the audience for which I believe Norton intended this book. I love lots of books for children and even have a few I'm weighing as potential nominees (hence the gauging). I don't think we have to talk about quality as a function of intended audience, and would be surprised if that's where the majority of the conversation centered. It's cool if folks don't want to have that conversation, but it is something I will personally be contemplating and I thought perhaps others might be as well.

If someone wants to talk about the value and depth of the book, we of course encourage that, too!