JulieLill's 2019 Reading Challenge

[madrano]

Julie, i agree about the definition of horror. And that institution, as well as the one for the article Alias linked, were horrors. And i remembered (as i read the article) that i, in fact, skimmed the descriptions of the patients at the institute. If that's not horror, what is?

[Julie]

News of the World
Paulette Jiles
4/5 stars
After the Civil War, Captain Jefferson Kyle Kidd is at loose ends. His job now involves traveling town to town in Texas reading newspaper stories in halls where people gather to listen. After one of his shows, he is offered a large sum to return Johanna, a young girl whose family was killed by Indians and then was taken and raised by them. She speaks no English but he reluctantly agrees to take her back to her kinsmen. This is a tale of two lost souls and what can happen from their connection. Lovely! A Western

[Julie]

Julie wrote: "
News of the World
Paulette Jiles
4/5 stars
After the Civil War, Captain Jefferson Kyle Kidd is at loose ends. His job now invol..."

This was the best book to read after reading the Lessing book!

[madrano]

I absolutely relished that book, Julie. I'd not heard of Jiles previously but hope to read more. I felt she captured the times well (at least from my reading of post-Civil War Texas history) & created a wonderful profession, to boot.

Good point about this book as good book to read post-Lessing. I mentioned elsewhere on Book Nook that i'm reading Richard Preston's Crisis in the Red Zone: The Story of the Deadliest Ebola Outbreak in History, and of the Outbreaks to Come. It's a horror story of clear & present danger. Which is a curious contrast to Lessing's.

[Alias Reader]

I have a few more pages to read until I finish The Fifth Child--Doris Lessing

[Alias Reader]

Lit Lovers article has commentary on the follow-up to The Fifth Child.

https://www.litcharts.com/lit/the-fif...

(view spoiler)[Other Books Related to The Fifth Child
Twelve years after the publication of The Fifth Child, Lessing published a sequel called Ben, in the World, following Ben into adulthood, absent of the Lovatt home. Both books’ portrayals of Ben are indebted to radical psychiatrist R.D. Laing, who believed psychological breakthroughs could be achieved through breakdowns and that schizophrenia is a sane response to an insane world, forming a rather romanticized notion of madness. Lessing also maintained a close friendship and romantic relationship with Clancy Sigal, an American writer, and both created facsimilies of the other in their autobiographical fiction. Though most famously told through film, critics have identified Ira Levin’s novel Rosemary’s Baby (1967) as an influence on Lessing’s novel, drawing comparisons between Harriet and Rosemary’s difficult pregnancies.

Here is the wiki on R.D. Laing
Ronald David Laing (7 October 1927 – 23 August 1989), usually cited as R. D. Laing, was a Scottish psychiatrist who wrote extensively on mental illness – in particular, the experience of psychosis. Laing’s views on the causes and treatment of psychopathological phenomena were influenced by his study of existential philosophy and ran counter to the chemical and electroshock methods that had become psychiatric orthodoxy. Taking the expressed feelings of the individual patient or client as valid descriptions of lived experience rather than simply as symptoms of mental illness, Laing regarded schizophrenia as a theory not a fact. Though associated in the public mind with anti-psychiatry he rejected the label.[2] Politically, he was regarded as a thinker of the New Left.[3] Laing was portrayed in the 2017 film Mad to Be Normal.
For full article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._D._L... (hide spoiler)]

[Alias Reader]

Julie, is it okay to discuss the book in your thread ? If you would rather we don't, I can move it to another area.

[Alias Reader]

madrano wrote: "Julie, i agree about the definition of horror. And that institution, as well as the one for the article Alias linked, were horrors. And i remembered (as i read the article) that i, in fact, skimmed..."

Lit Lovers puts in the Genre: Gothic

https://www.litcharts.com/lit/the-fif...

[madrano]

Interesting notes about the book. While it is true that the book begins in that era, it was also a sort of retro-era. We wore "granny dresses", "granny glasses" and tried creating those up-swept hairdos. (As an aside, just this week i ran across a photo of myself with my siblings & guess who is wearing her calico granny gown?) It was a dichotomous era in more ways than one.

I didn't even think of Rosemary's Baby (Ira Levin) as i read this but that book was scary for the pregnancy, too, wasn't it?

I'm also trying to recall when i first learned about Victor, "Wild Boy of Aveyron", who was found in France in 1800. It was guessed he was about 12 but knew no language & appeared to have been raising himself in the wild. Reading this book reminded me of that child & the efforts taken to try to "civilize" him. In his case i don't recall anyone suggesting his was an atavistic life but the struggle to get him to live in society sounds similar. (I read this book about him in 1990, The Forbidden Experiment by Roger Shattuck.

Much to consider here.

[Julie]

Alias Reader wrote: "Julie, is it okay to discuss the book in your thread ? If you would rather we don't, I can move it to another area."
Yes, we can discuss it here!

[Julie]

madrano wrote: "Interesting notes about the book. While it is true that the book begins in that era, it was also a sort of retro-era. We wore "granny dresses", "granny glasses" and tried creating those up-swept ha..."

In Rosemary's Baby, I believe the mother was impregnated by the devil or a demon. So I don't think that applies here. Ben definitely was their child. I think their expectation of him was the problem. Up to his birth, all the children were pretty mild mannered. But Ben was the outrageous one. The one who couldn't be handled.

[madrano]

Julie, that was my initial thought, too. Do you think that the family saw Ben in that light? By that i mean, do you think Lessing was suggesting that seeing him as a "throwback" was all in their attitude/brain? I mean, it seems odd that the school system, all of which have problems, of course, didn't even mention the issues the family thought they would have.

True, about Rosemary's baby--there was a sort of reason why she had a miserable pregnancy. This reminds me of another point i found curious. Each of Harriet's pregnancies were difficult, as i recall. This seemed to be why others were expecting her to adjust to that last pregnancy. I guess i'm just wondering (again) if there wasn't a mental component to this which was expressed as fact in the book. Am i alone in this?

[Alias Reader]

madrano wrote: Do you think that the family saw Ben in that light? By that i mean, do you think Lessing was suggesting that seeing him as a "throwback" was all in their attitude/brain? I mean, it seems odd that the school system, all of which have problems, of course, didn't even mention the issues the family thought they would have.."

I also thought it odd that the doctors and school officials didn't see what the parents saw.

Though the boy with his friends did call him names that seem to indicate they saw his physical differences. Also the other son Paul lived in a constant state of fear of him and the other siblings could wait to leave.

The author sort of leaves you in the dark a bit. I wonder why.

[Alias Reader]

I have a Vintage International paperback, so my page #'s reflect that.

For the most part it was hard to like Ben. Though the way he was treated in the institution was unconscionable.

Another time I really did feel for him was on P 98 when he would recite the phrases he heard that day. It almost was a way to sooth himself to sleep and also to help him remember the rules. (hold on tight going around the corners) I don't know I just found it so sad.

[Alias Reader]

P 101

I am not sure if it is even possible to know but do you think the author had a particular diagnosis for Ben that she was trying to convey?

I did note that when Ben attacked the girl on the playground, Mrs. Graves says, "He doesn't seem to be remorseful in any way."

This lack of empathy and the earlier episodes of killing the pets, are two traits of a psychopath.

I am not sure how the physical deformities fit in or the author just put that in to fit the moms notion of a throwback gene. (the book was published in 1988)
Which is interesting now that we all can sequence our genes for $100. I do know people who said they had a Neanderthal gene pop up on their tests.

If you are really interested in that topic I can not recommend enough that you read Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind It is brilliant and very readable.

On page 105 Harriet once again voices her observation to the doctor that Ben is "not human". I also noted this again on p 114.

Harriet says she just wants it recognized and said. Perhaps it's like other illnesses that back in the day people couldn't bring themselves to even talk about it due to shame. Back in the day people would whisper the word cancer, for example.

[Alias Reader]

p 113

Paul- "He was now the sort of man he had once decided never to be."

It was sad the way the family just fell apart under the strain.

Besides Ben, however, do you think the Harriet and Paul were refusing to accept the realities of life like an adult would?

I am talking about buying a home they couldn't afford. Additionally, planning on having more children then they could reasonable support. Also expecting other family members to take on their financial obligations or babysit Ben. Having huge family stay overs that they clearly could not pay for or handle after Ben was born.

They were told by others in the family that they were acting unreasonable but seemed to not respond to the pleas and continued on their reckless ways.

[Alias Reader]

I felt for Harriet when she said her choice was to keep Ben in an institution that was grossly mistreating him and and would kill him or bringing him home and seeing the happy family life disintegrate.

The children were scarred, especially Paul, by the return of Ben. Her marriage also suffered.

No one wanted to be in the house. Paul worked himself to death to pay the bills and also just not to be home. The kids all scattered as soon as they were able.

The whole book was so incredibly sad. I don't really know what could have been done in their situation to help them or even Ben.

Oh that reminds me, the school system also failed them as on page 120 it's noted he was just promoted along even though he wasn't learning a thing. Whatever his issues were, they clearly were not being addressed or even acknowledged. :(

I will say the book was very well written and it's not one I think I will easily forget.

Thank you for bringing it to my attention, Julie !

[madrano]

Alias Reader wrote: "Harriet says she just wants it recognized and said. Perhaps it's like other illnesses that back in the day people couldn't bring themselves to even talk about it due to shame. Back in the day people would whisper the word cancer, for example...."

This is the reason i keep wondering if what the family saw was, in fact, reality. That no professionals would say the words she felt she needed left me wondering if this was an indictment against the varied professions or if they were not seeing what she & other family members saw and, therefore, weren't saying the words. Ultimately i decided they were confined by their professions.

Another thing i wondered was whether the story was also a sort of allegory about how we judge people by looks. Alias mentioned that his teenage friends called him by names which means they saw his physical features as very different but still liked being with him.

As noted, the institution was a wretched, inhumane place. It would have been hard for me to accept him there as an appropriate ending to the story. The psychic scars were so deep for Benjamin that mention of it kept him in line. Was that just? I understood the threat, of course, but something about it was also profoundly disturbing to me, as well.

I agree with you about Benj repeating those lines to remind himself of what was "right" or not--they were sad but also showed a willingness to learn. It has one wondering if the "system" (educational, medical, whatever) could have helped him if they had the time & money, rather than just passing him on.

Today these systems are quite different from when the book was written, not to mention different from the time depicted. This makes it tougher to decide who was failing Benjamin & the family.

[madrano]

Alias Reader wrote: "Besides Ben, however, do you think the Harriet and Paul were refusing to accept the realities of life like an adult would? ..."

Really good question! From the beginning, when they allowed his father to pay for so much (& not even with money he earned, or so it seemed), i felt their decisions were warped. It's no wonder the entire family came to depend on dad for money, is it, even when it came to institutionalizing Ben?

To be fair, though, the family seemed to fill the void, so i decided dad paying for that was ok. And what about the extended family visits? The descriptions were nice & i can imagine the pleasure families would have vacationing there. But, wow, those were long stays!

The family did, however, step in when the older children basically wanted to escape their parent's home. This was sad but understandable. Poor Paul stuck there was unfortunate. You made a good point about those other children--they suffered as a family. Other families do make accommodations for single members (cancer, disability, etc.), so, i also have to wonder where we draw the line. There are many challenges in many directions for families everywhere and, perhaps, this is another question Lessing is posing.

[Julie]

madrano wrote: "Alias Reader wrote: "Harriet says she just wants it recognized and said. Perhaps it's like other illnesses that back in the day people couldn't bring themselves to even talk about it due to shame. ..."

I have to agree that at least in my city, that schools are very proactive in seeking out problems in children. My son had a speech deficit which was picked up right away and some hyperactivity problems and we were able to get him into a early childhood program within the elementary school. Luckily, that intervention really helped. If they had gotten Ben help earlier -things might have changed (but then there would be no story.) But when this was written, I am sure nothing probably was in place to help children like Ben.

[Julie]

Having a great family before Ben threw the family off. When Ben was born, I think they were expecting just another normal child. To cope with a very difficult child plus having a boat load of young children at home to deal with must have been so stressful.

[Alias Reader]

madrano wrote: The psychic scars were so deep for Benjamin that mention of it kept him in line. Was that just? I understood the threat, of course, but something about it was also profoundly disturbing to me, as well..."

Agree. Parts of the book were hard to read because they were so sad.

[Alias Reader]

Julie wrote: "Having a great family before Ben threw the family off. When Ben was born, I think they were expecting just another normal child. To cope with a very difficult child plus having a boat load of young..."

It's interesting that the family accepted the child with
Down syndrome. Perhaps because she was not violent like Ben.

I am not sure what the author was trying to convey with this part of the story.

According to this article

National association for Down Syndrome
https://www.nads.org/about-us/history...
is was common to institutionalize children with Down syndrome

And this article notes (also gives a good timeline in the link)
https://www.globaldownsyndrome.org/ab...

"Historically in the United States, the majority of people with Down syndrome and other intellectual and developmental disabilities were kept in inhumane institutions where they were deprived of education, healthcare and even plumbing.

In the United States, until the 1980s and in some cases as late as the 1990s, the way in which people with Down syndrome and other intellectual disabilities were treated represents a shameful chapter of inhumanity and discrimination in our country."


"It is important to remember up until 1984 doctors in the United States refused to provide lifesaving procedures to people with Down syndrome such as surgeries related to the heart. Even today, there are people with Down syndrome dying in their 30s or 40s simply because a doctor refused to perform the heart surgery when they were infants.

[madrano]

Two good examples of how things have changed. Julie, i've seen schools today really reaching out to help students & families, as well. What a welcome change. Our nephew's child (3 now) has already begun work with the school district, so he will be further along/ready for class when he is the required 5 year old. Remarkable.

My husband had a cousin born in '58 who lived with Down Syndrome. Her mother was pressured to institutionalize her daughter but wouldn't do it. She understood why some families chose to do that, it just wasn't for her. Sally lived to be 54, despite the fact that upon birth the family was told she wouldn't live beyond her 20s. So much change, even from the '80s when the book was published.

Our discussion has me wondering how the dynamics would have changed had Benjamin been the first born child. Would there have been others or would they, not knowing, have handled him & their lives differently?

[Julie]

madrano wrote: "Two good examples of how things have changed. Julie, i've seen schools today really reaching out to help students & families, as well. What a welcome change. Our nephew's child (3 now) has already ..."

I was thinking that also. What if Ben was the first born. I don't think they would have had as many children but maybe they would have been more proactive with him since this was the first child then and they wouldn't have had a set idea on how children acted and behaved.

[Alias Reader]

madrano wrote: Our discussion has me wondering how the dynamics would have changed had Benjamin been the first born child. Would there have been others or would they, not knowing, have handled him & their lives differently?..."

That's a good question. I'm not sure how they would have reacted.

[madrano]

My mom used to say that i was an awful child but she didn't realize that until my calm sister was born. LOL! Still, it does beg the question about the book. There was ineffective birth control when i was born but with more reliable methods today, who knows?

[Julie]

Fifty Things That Aren't My Fault: Essays from the Grown-Up Years
Cathy Guisewite
3.5/5 stars
This book is written by Cathy Guisewite who wrote and drew the comic strip Cathy. It has essays about her life after she ended the comic strip. In this funny book she deals with some of the same issues that were in her comic strip (dating, weight gain, etc.) but also about her marriage that ended, her daughter whom she adopted and dealing with her elderly parents. Very enjoyable and relatable! A Book on the Bottom of My Reading List

[madrano]

Great category for you List, Julie. This book sounds enjoyable. I used to read Cathy back when we got a daily newspaper.

[Julie]

Daisy Jones & The Six
Taylor Jenkins Reid
5/5 stars
I loved this fictional book about a young female singer, Daisy Jones who hooks up with the male group The Six in the 1970’s to do concerts and albums. The story is told through the interviews of the people involved. This reminds me of all those retrospectives of actual singers. Wonderful! A Book That Everyone's Talking About

[madrano]

As noted, it reminds me of those artist bios we used to see aired on A&E (i think it was them). A person is reminded of the human side of performers and "making it".

Interesting category you place it in, Julie, as i haven't even heard of it. Given the date published, i guess it came out when we were on the road & not checking on new books. Glad to hear about it, though.

[Julie]

madrano wrote: "As noted, it reminds me of those artist bios we used to see aired on A&E (i think it was them). A person is reminded of the human side of performers and "making it".

Interesting category you plac..."
I had googled that topic and that was one of the books that came up. Who knew-though it was a good choice for me.

[Julie]

Fox 8
George Saunders
3.5/5 stars
I enjoy Saunders writing and found this book/short story/novelette about a Fox called Fox 8 who learns to read and understands human language. When he discovers a shopping mall, he goes to explore it but on his return to his home finds that the humans have done something horrendous! Quick read and very well done! This is not on my reading challenge-just a quick book (50 pages). It also reminded me to put Saunders back on my reading lists. I loved his book Tenth of December and have his Lincoln in the Bardo on my reading list!

[madrano]

What a curious book Fox8 is. Is it written with children in mind? It almost sounds like it but that home change has me wondering.

[Julie]

madrano wrote: "What a curious book Fox8 is. Is it written with children in mind? It almost sounds like it but that home change has me wondering."
I think children could read it but I think it is more geared to adults ( it was listed as Adult fiction) and teens. It is a short read with a few pictures.

[madrano]

Thanks, Julie, for the quick reply. I think i'll share it with my nephew, who is a high school senior this year.

[Julie]

Wait Till Next Year
Doris Kearns Goodwin
4/5 stars
Goodwin relates her life around the major events of the 1950’s including her love of the Brooklyn Dodgers and the hope that they will win the World Series, the changes in her neighborhood and her life in the Catholic Church. I thought this was wonderfully written and enjoyed learning about that time period through her eyes. A Sports Related Book

[madrano]

Julie, as i am not a fan of sports, i doubt i'll ever read it. However, your description makes it more alluring. Her writing is outstanding, which is another plus.

[Alias Reader]

Julie wrote: "
Wait Till Next Year
Doris Kearns Goodwin
4/5 stars
Goodwin relates her life around the major events of the 1950’s including her love..."

Julie, are you a baseball fan ?

[Meredith]

madrano wrote: "Julie, as i am not a fan of sports, i doubt i'll ever read it. However, your description makes it more alluring. Her writing is outstanding, which is another plus."
Deb You do not need to be a baseball fan to enjoy this book. It is more about what growing up in the 50's was like. I have not met a person who has not loved it.

[Julie]

Alias Reader wrote: "Julie wrote: "
Wait Till Next Year
Doris Kearns Goodwin
4/5 stars
Goodwin relates her life around the major events of the 1950’s incl..."
My father was a high school baseball coach whose teams won 3 state high school championships and is tied for the record but still hasn't been broken. But I am not the biggest baseball fan. However, I like going to the ballpark occasionally to see a game. I related to Doris in one way. I remember my dad teaching me how to properly fill in a scorecard just like her dad did with her! But sports was about a third of the book.

[madrano]

Meredith, i see what you & Julie mean. I suppose that tells you how non-sport i am--that i see a sports term & turn off my brain! It seems to me that the book would also allow me to get to know Goodwin better, too. As i like her writing, this would be another positive for the book.

Julie, those sound like good memories, i can see why you were drawn to the book. This makes it even more rewarding, imo. Last month i read a mystery set in small town Texas and while it wasn't great, i felt as though i was there because i have good memories of my grandparents in their small town. Therefore, i know i'll read the next book in the new series. It's a sort of comfort, isn't it?

[Alias Reader]

Meredith wrote: madrano wrote: "Julie, as i am not a fan of sports, i doubt i'll ever read it. However, your description makes it more alluring. Her writing is outstanding, which is another plus."
Deb You do not need to be a baseball fan to enjoy this book. It is more about what growing up in the 50's was like. I have not met a person who has not loved it. "

I do enjoy baseball. Mets fan here. However, it's good to know the focus is more on the 1950s.

Thanks !

[Alias Reader]

Julie wrote: "My father was a high school baseball coach whose teams won 3 state high school championships and is tied for the record but still hasn't been broken. But I am not the biggest baseball fan. However, I like going to the ballpark occasionally to see a game. I related to Doris in one way. I remember my dad teaching me how to properly fill in a scorecard just like her dad did with her! But sports was about a third of the book. ..."

Wow ! That is a very impressive record your dad hold.

Sounds like you have some lovely memories, Julie.

I've read other books by the author and enjoyed them. I'll have to give this one a try.

Thanks !

[Julie]

Alias Reader wrote: "Julie wrote: "My father was a high school baseball coach whose teams won 3 state high school championships and is tied for the record but still hasn't been broken. But I am not the biggest baseball..."
My dad was a great guy. He was a twin and his brother was also a teacher, coach and another all around great guy. We really miss both of them!

[madrano]

Sorry for your loss, Julie. It sounds as though you have lovely memories of both men.

[Julie]

The Rose and the Yew Tree
Mary Westmacott
5/5 stars
Written by Agatha Christie under a pseudonym, this story is narrated by Hugh Norreys who knows all the participants in this unusual tale. When Hugh is summoned by John Gabriel now known by as Father Clement, Hugh is shocked by the revelation. John Gabriel was a scoundrel and social climber who was a hero in the war and was running for election when Hugh first met him. However, when John meets the lovely Isabella, whose family Hugh is staying with, everything changes for John. I really enjoyed this book, the characters, the storyline and the surprise ending. An Author Who Uses a Pseudonym

[Alias Reader]

Julie wrote: " An Author Who Uses a Pseudonym

I Love your categories !

[madrano]

I didn't realize Christie wrote anything other than mysteries. How neat. I'm with Alias on your categories!

[Julie]

madrano wrote: "I didn't realize Christie wrote anything other than mysteries. How neat. I'm with Alias on your categories!"

I found this book challenge list on line but can't remember the site. I did add a couple of my own categories. I think I just googled book challenges.

I did not know Christie wrote under a pseudonym till I started googling that topic but I really enjoyed the book. I think she wrote at least one more under that name but it may have been more.