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Jade City
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"Jade City" Full Discussion *Spoilers*
I really enjoyed this! I thought the world building was especially impressive in the way the history of Kekon is woven throughout the story. I agree it was a little slow in the middle, but not so much that I was bothered by it.
Since I read this a few months ago, a lot of detail has been lost but I definitely remember this going v.e.r.y. s.l.o.w.l.y in its first half, and being an amazing downhill ride in the second, mostly because a couple of the female characters finally came into the spotlight. The rival clan leader--whose name I sadly can't recall now--is amazing.One thing that came up in another discussion or review I saw, was the opinion that the No Peak Clan was too "nice," that they weren't convincing as gangsters, that the narrative was too anxious to have the reader on their side. Since I'm not a fan of gangster stories to begin with, the lack of atrocities and rape was just fine. There was the one character whose (view spoiler) but that was done to their clan, not by them.
This was my favorite Fantasy of the year, but also one of my favorite books.I’ve been calling this “The Godfather meets Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon” (Phillip got that from me), which isn’t something I realized I wanted, but now I need more.
I do find it odd that people think the No Peak Clan is nice. They are pretty ruthless, it’s just that their philosophy of not abusing the business owners who owe them fealty stands in contrast to the Mountain Clan’s oppressive brutality. No Peak exemplifies the notion of “you draw more flies with honey than with vinegar”, but they are hardly good guys who play fair.
I really like that the jade magic isn’t an Automatic Win button they can push, and that some people are naturally better at using it than others. The little touches such as the older brother wearing all that jade because it’s what is expected of him despite the fact that it poisons him and ultimately leads to his death was a cool, unexpected addition. Basically it’s the metaphor of being killed by stress due to working yourself to death. I always like it when authors find a fantastical allegory to real-world issues.
I didn't really like this one. I liked the first few chapters, and thought I'd enjoy the story telling and the world. But it did slow down dramatically after the first couple of scenes. About 6 chapters in, I was ready to quit reading the story. I only stuck it out due to fear of missing out and because it was a group read.For the first half of the book I have no idea what jade actually does except make someone move fast and make other people sick. Everything is being built on this jade, but somehow I had no sense of why it's valuable.
Everyone seems to be a bad guy. I have no one to root for except Shae and Anden. Lan was complex, but a poor leader. Hilo was cool but one dimensional. A lot of other characters were also one dimensional.
Then Lan dies unremarkably and the pace picks up. Except that Shae just suddenly falls into place as a mobster and Anden isn't doing anything. Jade made a little more sense after this, and the politics were more believable (in the clans, not in the government though).
The fight between Hilo and Gont at the end was pretty interesting, especially with Anden finally doing something. While I thought Anden's denunciation of jade didn't make a whole lot of sense in the context of this story, I kind of liked that he redeemed himself there.
On the brighter side, I liked some of the imagery that Fonda Lee created. Shae was an interesting character that I would like to know more about. The world was well fleshed out.
Here's some extras from Fonda Lee's website that build the world out a little more: http://fondalee.com/books/jade-city/j...
Overall, I think I just don't like mobster/gangster themes so I was destined to not like this story.
Trike wrote: The little touches such as the older brother wearing all that jade because it’s what is expected of him despite the fact that it poisons him and ultimately leads to his death was a cool, unexpected addition. Basically it’s the metaphor of being killed by stress due to working yourself to death. I always like it when authors find a fantastical allegory to real-world issues.I agree. There are a lot of nice allegories sprinkled throughout the story.
As for the jade, it seems like the world is built on how jade was a win button in the past, but for some reason it's not now.
Paul wrote: "Except that Shae just suddenly falls into place as a mobster"I agree with this. Hilo, on the other hand, seemed like the same person even though his role changed a lot. He was a compelling character!
I think Shae is clearly the analogue to Michael Corleone here. She’s smart and competent but she really doesn’t want to be part of that world. However, once she gets pulled in she fully commits. I know a dozen guys just like Hilo, so he felt pretty real to me. Not everyone has a cliche “character arc”, nor do they need one. In real life most people don’t change.
I’m not one of those people who needs a character to identify with or root for in order to enjoy the story, so not seeing myself represented is not that big a deal for me.
Trike wrote: "I know a dozen guys just like Hilo, so he felt pretty real to me. Not everyone has a cliche “character arc”, nor do they need one. In real life most people don’t change.I’m not one of those people who needs a character to identify with or root for in order to enjoy the story, so not seeing myself represented is not that big a deal for me..."
Absolutely. All the characters are believable and real. But, I do have to relate to a character's motives to invest in them. In this case it seems to me that our protagonists are motivated to stay in power through strength and fear at the obvious cost to people around them. I have a hard time getting behind that, which is why mobster themes are not for me.
I didn't finish it but the mob feel didn't really work for me.I loved Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon; that was almost a fairy tale. It was a fairytale of a different sort. The Godfather I found fascinating, but my practical side objected to the women being, or pretending to be, so clueless about their murderous spouses. (Kate was really annoying: oh, just drop back into my life, eh? Well, OK.) Anyway I didn't like Michael Corleone. It's an iconic movie and I appreciate it for that--and for some reason there is always the anticipation when he is going to blow away the cop and the mob guy, and the explosion in Sicily, and Sonny getting it, all those things. Go figure. But this book wasn't for me. Interesting too that it's unresolved at the end.
Paul wrote: "As for the jade, it seems like the world is built on how jade was a win button in the past, but for some reason it's not now. "And this was my problem with the world-building - if jade is that powerful in pre-industrial era, there should be a great Kikon empire, which no one can withstand, but their history is more like Korea - annexed by China and the Japan. And the fact they thew off the yoke when modern army is around is not well thought out IMHO
I've set the book aside for now, and I'm not sure if I'll ever finish it or not. Like some others, I'm not a fan of the gangster theme and I found none of the characters particularly compelling. Just not my cup of tea.
So I got really tired of it in the middle. I stuck it out, so once Lon died, things picked up and the story got better, but there was (especially as an audio book) an interminably long period of nothing actually happening. No real character building, no major events, just... blah. it was a relief when things started happening again.spoiler: discussion of parallels with The Godfather:
(view spoiler)
As others have said, Hilo is very one-dimensional. I don't expect him to survive the next book, to be honest. Sure, he's a fighter, but that's ALL he is. Realistic? sure - plenty of meatheads are just like that. Long term-protagonist? not without personality surgery.
other random thoughts:
Anden needs some serious room to grow. I expect a lot of his POV the next book, and some serious conflict with Hilo.
I would really appreciate a clearer understanding of what the technology levels in the world are, and in Kikon.
The jade as magic, with this setup, keeps magic low-key. There's a subconscious discussion about cultural reactions to magic vs. tech going on here, and that could end up being the most interesting part of the trilogy.
Overall, it got 3/5 from me, and I think I'll give Jade War a go when I can get it on the cheap.
This was strange ... I didn't like the book, probably won't read the next one, but had to give it 5 stars, because it was terrific! I know, I'm not making much sense. It is in the middle of my night here and perhaps tomorrow I feel clearer. I'm all churned up inside at the monent
Gabi wrote: "This was strange ... I didn't like the book, probably won't read the next one, but had to give it 5 stars, because it was terrific! I know, I'm not making much sense. It is in the middle of my nigh..."I get that. You can totally appreciate the quality of a book or movie while at the same time think, “Yeah, that’s not for me.”
Trike wrote: "I get that. You can totally appreciate the quality of a book or movie while at the same time think, “Yeah, that’s not for me.”This exactly. I may choose a different rating, based on my overall critique of the structure and pacing, but still actually want to continue the story despite my giving it a lower rating.
Personal rating criteria are always weird, aren't they?
Wow, I am surprised by the mediocre response!I loved this. I mean, lots of caveats--I am really a sucker for band of brothers, loyalty over common sense type stories. Like, I still get goosebumps when the Rohirrim ride or when I hear "valar dohaeris" and so on. On top of that, my dad, spouse, and I watch soooo many kung fu and wuxia movies. It's so so bad but we must have watched "Yakuza" like 4 times. So, jade being the basis of wuxia-fied wushu kind of moves was exactly the right choice for the movie in my head.
I also spent almost 2 weeks in Taipei, so while I doubt that was exactly the basis of inspiration, all of the descriptions of the city and how it suddenly became mountains and so on that I could feel along with the characters.
Then, of course, were the characters. I loved that I found all of them to be so human. The bad guys were bad but I knew why. I didn't think the Kauls were nice, I thought they saw violence as business and just didn't dwell on what that meant on an individual basis. I loved that Hilo had a way the world was "right" and a way that pissed him off and that his happiness was the world going right, even when that meant everything was going to hell in a hand basket. I loved that Shae tried so hard to get out but in the end knew her fate was inevitable, even if that's a bitter pill. I loved that Lan was just getting his feet under him when one careless moment swept him out to sea, it totally changed the balance of the story for me.
Yeah, this really just worked for me. It felt very alive and subverted a lot of tropes that maybe I found more refreshing because I'm more familiar with the tropes?
I did find the ending a bit rushed, and I wish, with all the groundwork, the dangers of SN1 had been more explicitly stated so I could have watched the train derail a bit before the wreck, so to speak, but other than that I really had a great time with this and can't wait to see how they pull out of it.
Also, I really don't think it was weird that a small island with a commodity that made it seem fierce wouldn't be a world power. We've seen it so many times in real life, it doesn't seem strange to me that local culture, years of oppression and the all consuming fight for independence would trend towards a path of isolation and in-fighting. Maybe eventually they'd be a world power, but it's gon' be a minute.
It’s also a small island nation, and it’s clear that using jade is difficult and exhausting, so it’s not like its use is a magic “We Win” button they can push.Sure, they can field five thousand supermen, but going up against a numerically and technologically superior army that can absorb those first few waves and then counterattack once those ubermensch are exhausted means that Kekon loses every time.
Allison wrote: "Also, I really don't think it was weird that a small island with a commodity that made it seem fierce wouldn't be a world power. We've seen it so many times in real life, it doesn't seem strange to..."Agreed! Part of what I found so captivating was that the history of Kekon an where it fits in the world all felt very believable and well thought out. It was such a rich setting for the plot.
Allison wrote: "Wow, I am surprised by the mediocre response!I loved this. I mean, lots of caveats--I am really a sucker for band of brothers, loyalty over common sense type stories. Like, I still get goosebumps..."
my rating has entirely to do with the pacing of the book. The slow burn of character building up to the point where Lan dies just becomes an utter slog, and I didn't really feel the payoff from it.
I also feel that Shae's story wasn't really earned by it (see my comments above regarding Shae vs. Michael Corleone).
But, I think it's also probably unfair of me to compare this to The Godfather, because that book is **SO DAMN GOOD.**
Mod
The characters are too real for me. I mostly read for escapism and I want some inspiration with my characters. Hilo is too easy to see in real life, Anden is conflicted about his future like any teenager would be. I know the realism make the characters more relatable but I need some spark, something that makes me think they will be better than the average human and I never got that.
OKay, starting with an obvious statement: an author can have any type of history is her/his imaginary world. No problem with that.However, I cannot agree that we had technologically [for her magic is an equivalent to our world tech] powerful civilizations, which [a] had a unique resource that can change the world [b] was perfectly fine within its borders.
I also see that a modern impersonal war is way more dangerous for jade warriors as depicted. In times of sword and spear, greater speed and reaction and power mattered a great deal. and their 'feeling of others' intentions' was an additional great bonus. Now [in their 1970s] they can be barraged from like 20 miles away and the cannoneer has no specific intention just like his shrapnel doesn't discriminate
I could see the pacing feeling off. I am really in the mood for a classic tale lately (something about it getting cold and dark, I think!) so I guess I had more patience for the slow burn than I might otherwise.Oleksandr, I'd agree except it sounds like at some point Kekon may have been somewhat of a power. The rules like "gold and jade together" suggest that something went super wrong in the past when the Green Bones tried to make ruling decisions. And we know Shotar was able to conquer them, so I saw it more as countless countries that had One Great Thing that they were sure protected them (a huge fortress; naval control of the area; the only water source; a super valuable good (like precious stones!) that they traded) that instead made people want to invade. And since SN1 is so new to the scene, Green Bones might have been coveted or feared, but jade was a threat to everyone else who touched it. Being small, having such limited bursts of power with such costs...I am not surprised in this world that they were kept down, so to speak.
Attempt at a more coherent view on the book:It took me 6 chapters to get into the story, but I would pin this down to the fact that I tried to read several books at the same time, which just doesn't work for me. So I ignore this fact.
The slow upbuilding of characters and the society was okay for me, it made the turning point halfway through the book just the more intense. I for once didn't see it coming and was met by Lan's death like a blow in the stomach.
For me the characters were developed rather distantly, perhaps because of what Hank was saying in his comment. With the exception of Lan there was nobody I felt drawn to. And thankfully even Lan was a rather weak connection, otherwise his death would have thrown me.
What happened from this point on was like an irresistible pull. I don't like gangster stories, I don't like these loyalty-and-honour-before-common-sense clans, I don't like killings - BUT I could not put the book down. What Fonda Lee did here was masterfully. I hated to see how outmatched the Kauls were, I hated that my emotions were played so relentlessly. I didn't want for Hilo to die, but I didn't want for him to be victorious either, because that would have felt too cheap. This book really threw me into an emotional turmoil.
When Hilo and Anden outsmarted the Mountain I wasn't sure, if I would like it or not. But when Anden in the end turned his back on his clan the I-don't-know-if-I-like-it victory felt so satisfactorily balanced.
So my strange verdict stays: I hate the book for loving it! :) (or is it: I love the book for hating it?)
Oleksandr wrote: "However, I cannot agree that we had technologically [for her magic is an equivalent to our world tech] powerful civilizations, which [a] had a unique resource that can change the world [b] was perfectly fine within its borders. "I don’t recall it being stated explicitly but there is certainly a hint that Kekon’s jade warriors got overconfident at some point in the past and tried to extend their empire in a “might makes right” scenario. That led to them splitting the jade users from the civilian government (“separating jade from gold”) and they fell to infighting.
Since so few people can easily wield jade — and even those predisposed to doing so can be sickened and weakened by jade exposure — it seems clear that jade can’t be utilized widely. And apparently not at all by anyone who isn’t from Kekon.
So it seems Lee has built in natural limitations to this superpower (few people can use it, small population, Jade makes you sick, etc.) which combine with people being selfish idiots to ensure Kekon can’t rule the world. It’s just that Lee never states this outright, preferring to show, not tell.
Gabi wrote: "Attempt at a more coherent view on the book:It took me 6 chapters to get into the story, but I would pin this down to the fact that I tried to read several books at the same time, which just does..."
I think you say it really well, Gabi! I really didn't want anything to be easy, but I also didn't want them to "win" via some lame author insert and I think she kept me spinning as all of my expectations didn't quite go as I, well, expected. I needed to know how this would all work out, how she could pull it off. And also I loved the hook and characters etc etc but from a writing standpoint, I think you're right, she handled the subversion of old tropes really well.
(in re Lan's exit from the story)Gabi wrote: "What happened from this point on was like an irresistible pull. "
For me the major turning point was when Hilo, as the new leader, has a formal meeting with the leader of the Mountain clan and the reader meets her "in person" for the first time.
Due to a snafu with my phone's audiobook player (I think it didn't download all the files, maybe?), I thought I was finished with this when I wasn't. 🤦♀️ So my complaints about the abrupt ending were... unwarranted. I apologize, Jade City, for my premature assessment. Of course, it's gone back to the library by now, and there's a wait, so I can't actually finish the last 20% until my new hold comes in. grrrrrrrr.
Ariana wrote: "Due to a snafu with my phone's audiobook player (I think it didn't download all the files, maybe?), I thought I was finished with this when I wasn't. 🤦♀️ So my complaints about the abrupt ending were… unwarranted"Oops! Where did it end?
I loved this book when I read it last spring, and it's fascinating to see the range of reactions to it. I'm only familiar with wuxia in passing, but just enough that the use of jade in this way felt very satisfying and clever. Personally, I'm with Allison and Trike in feeling that Kekon's role in the world felt realistic, given the limits on the power of jade, but I'm also finding Oleksandr's argument really interesting to think about. I'll be curious to see if there is more information about the history of Kekon and the other countries provided in the next book.Gabi, Lan's death was definitely the turning point for me too. I was enjoying the book quite a bit up to that point, but feeling a little frustrated on the character side because it felt like I should be more invested in Lan than I actually was. His death took me completely by surprise and was a really effective catalyst for the story's shift in momentum. I cared about Lan just enough for his death to feel significant, but I ended up caring way more about his siblings and cousin's reactions. I'm looking forward to seeing where especially Anden's story is going.
And I'm absolutely in agreement that the author did a great job keeping me off balance and making sure that nothing ever felt too easy. She managed to rescue the Kauls from what felt like hopeless situations multiple times without ever making it feel cheap.
Ariana wrote: "Due to a snafu with my phone's audiobook player (I think it didn't download all the files, maybe?), I thought I was finished with this when I wasn't. 🤦♀️ So my complaints about the abrupt ending w..."“...and the murderer is:”
THE END
YAY! I'm glad you agree, Kemmy!
I’m giving this one 3 stars as well. I’m not a huge fan of the gangster genre and this book was more violent than I care for. I cringed upon learning Mr. Une cut off his own ear to prove his loyalty. At the end when Hilo, upon eating squid snacks at the Twice Lucky says “These make it all worth it” I thought really???? Your brother Lan being killed? Countless deaths and dismemberments? Anyway, I enjoyed it enough in parts, but I couldn’t get on board enough with the general premise. At the end where Anden states his reasons for leaving I almost felt like I was him and I was trying to explain why I didn’t want to read Jade War to ardent fans of the books. I don’t want to get more wrapped up in this conflict with so much violence that at the end of the day isn’t clear is for very much. Sure the Mountain seems a bit more cutthroat, but Ayt makes some good points and surely all her foot soldiers aren’t evil they are just following their clan. I don’t want to cheer on Hilo and No Peak as they kill Mountain Green Bones again and again. I get that it’s a war, but it feels even more pointless than most. Just my two cents, I’m not a big action fan either so probably just not my cup of tea.
I really like how your reading journey seemed to come to the same conclusion Anden's school journey did, Christopher! This is definitely a sort of "niche" book, so I can completely understand finding it violent and emotionally twisted in an unpleasant way.
Christopher wrote: "I don’t want to cheer on Hilo and No Peak as they kill Mountain Green Bones again and again. I get that it’s a war, but it feels even more pointless than most. Just my two cents, I’m not a big action fan either so probably just not my cup of tea. "I have similar feelings, and maybe that's because I'm also not a huge fan of the gangster genre
Well I finished this in a rush last night. If only the first half of the book was as good as the second. It just didn't grab me at all until at least half way through. Once it caught fire, it really lit up. Be interesting to see where the series goes. Maybe Shae will reform the clans and Anden will create new uses for Jade that doesn't involve killing. Would like to see more depth to the magic use and history. Has there been any investigation into what can be done with it?Aside, did anyone else think that Lan had been given "bad jade" and the mountain clan guy had sacrificed himself so that Lan wore it and weakened him? I was almost disappointed that it didn't go this way.
Mod
Yes, I did think that and was equally disappointed. I was waiting for a reveal that did not happen.
Maybe we'll learn that in the second book!
I find myself very torn by this book, which I finally finished today. I have great admiration for the alternate universe that Fonda Lee meticulously created, especially its thoroughly convincing Deitist religion and mythology, and I thought the characters were all human and believable. But the book just never leapt off the page for me, I never found myself emotionally invested in a way that I hoped I would be. I think it would make an excellent tv series, cast with strong actors who could bring these characters to life.
So I was ultimately disappointed in the book, even though there’s a lot about it that was really admirable.
I totally agree with Anthony. I am about 70% in, thinking I might as well finish it since I’ve come this far, but I am bored and can’t find the motivation. I really liked The Godfather, but this is not it. I spend half the book waiting for something to happen, then when Lan died I thought it would pick up, which really didn’t. I am not sure if it will ever get finished.
This book.....at first it took very long to get going and then it made me miss sleep and almost be late for an appointment this morning. Still, despite the riveting ending, I couldn't quite give it more than 3 stars.I liked the world building and the history and society that Lee has created for Kekon. All of that felt very believable and I'm with others in saying that Kekon's role in the world made sense. The reliance on jade and the Green Bone code might definitely be why modern inventions (and mother weaponry) would have come later to Kekon, hence making it easier to be conquered. (A real-world parallel, at least where the value system is concerned, might be Japanese Samurai warriors.)
One thing I was wondering about is the patriarchal nature of the society. If there's no telling how wearing jade will affect someone's ability and if it thus might cancel out some of the differences between men and women in terms of upper body strength, etc., I wonder that not more women became Green Bones earlier. At the latest with the Shontarian occupation. You'd think under those circumstances they'd draw on all available resources. So that would be a minor quibble I have with the world building and thinking through how jade magic would affect society on all levels.
I also liked the characters and how they struggled with their different burdens. Especially Lan, Shae and Anden were well done. It took me a bit longer to warm up to Hilo, he's the weakest out of them for me. (He grows a lot over the course of this book, but his reaction to Anden not taking his jade upon graduation was really immature. I'd hoped for better from him at this point.)
One of my favorite scenes in terms of character interaction is definitely that between Shae and Wen when the latter offers to become a White Rat. I knew things would get interesting when these women finally got together. Similar for the meeting between Ayt Mada and Shae. (Though Ayt Mada's "I'll destroy your clan and it will be all your fault" towards the end sounded like classic abuser logic to me. And I guess that makes sense for someone in her position....)
At the same time, the novel's slow pace up until Lan's death is one of the reasons I struggled with it. I also thought it could sometimes have done with more showing and less telling (Lee is sometimes brilliant with that, for example when she gets into Green Bone fighting techniques, and sometimes she over-explains things or structures the book in ways that made certain things very obvious). Overall, the book could have been a lot tighter in these respects.
And even though I thought the characters were believable and human in their struggles, the novel didn't quite grab me emotionally, which is a shame.
All that being said, I will probably still give the second book a go, just to see how the story continues.
@Paul: Oh, the idea of "bad jade" is interesting! I definitely wouldn't put that past Ayt Mada.
I too thought of The Godfather. Did anyone else think of Lan as similar to Michael and Hilo as similar to Sonny?I also thought about "bad jade." I guess the book's explanation is that all jade is both good and bad. Lan takes too much new jade at once, plus all the other stress in his life. It is ironic that Lan, who is so Zen-like and wise in many ways, feels trapped by others' expectations and so contributes to his own downfall.
The climactic battle made Anden seem very OP. The book had been preparing us since the the beginning, but his power is still way off the scale. I guess we will find out whether the author can make it work in the rest of the series. She seems very skillful for her first published novel, so I wouldn't be surprised if she handles the problem deftly.
Chris wrote: "I too thought of The Godfather. Did anyone else think of Lan as similar to Michael and Hilo as similar to Sonny?I also thought about "bad jade." I guess the book's explanation is that all jade is..."
I think Shae is Michael, but Hilo is Sonny. Perhaps, you could argue Anden as Michael, but I think the author went with a gender swap on this one.
Phillip wrote: "I think Shae is Michael"Oh, yes, that did occur to me too, later in the book. Shae's reluctance to join the family business fits nicely. And yes, Anden's stepping up in the big fight was a lot like Michael's role in assassinating the police chief and rival crime boss. I like how various aspects of the earlier work have echoes, but there isn't a one-to-one correspondence.
Chris wrote: "She seems very skillful for her first published novel, so I wouldn't be surprised if she handles the problem deftly. "First published adult novel. She had two YAs published previously to this, Exo and Zeroboxer.
Great post, Mareike. :)
Corinne wrote: "ARCs of Book 2 will be given away in various ways. See author blog: https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog..."DOH. I am not able to go to Norwescon this year, otherwise I would try to get a copy from her. She made some great points at panels she was on last year.
Corinne wrote: "There is always twitter"I'd rather wait and pay money than deal with twitter ;)
I'm on twitter and my soul is... ...just fine! Pay no mind to the seeping holes and scorch marks.
(Actually I'll probably just wait for a GR giveaway and/or until the book comes out.)
Aww, I love that you all have souls, be they charred or otherwise!And am excited for this book!!
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Godfather (other topics)The Water Outlaws (other topics)
Exo (other topics)
Zeroboxer (other topics)
The Godfather (other topics)
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Now let's dig in. Did you think it was slow? Just right? What did you think about the characters and their motives/actions?