Into the Forest discussion
Original Fairy Tales
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Kristen Bell faces backlash after talking Snow White and consent with her children
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I agree that as a mother she is right to be guiding her children on how to think through fairy tales - that is what fairy tales are for, after all. And, social values have changed a lot -as have the fairy tales- over time a lot of them need context.Many of the older fairy tales are completely unsuited for what we think of as suitable for children in 2018.
I think this is great! I have an 11 year old and an 11 month old and everything they're exposed to seeps into their brains at least a little bit. I would tell mine something similar, because I don't want them growing up not having a good concept of consent. I don't want them growing up thinking a lot of the things I have in my few 25 years, most of which is very minor compared to a lot of women's experiences in today's society. And literary criticism is great to learn at any age with any and everything you read! Both my girls love books and I love talking about books with them. :)My husband adds: "It's important to explain to our children too that the rules that govern a myth or fairy tale are different that the rules that govern daily life."
And no one noticed that Prince is necrophiliac considering Snowie is being thought dead.Personally, I think both sides've gone too far. Bell has right to rear children as she wish, but I also think her opponents have a point.
Fairy tales are governed by different rules than real life as Shannon's husband said. That means plenty of explaining on the side of parents (Or not, kids are smart).
On the other hand, I'm against censoring and/or skipping the content unless child can't cope with this. During lifetime happens both good and bad. I think fairy tales are great to gently introduce little ones to that truth.
By the way, Sleeping Beauty in its original variant is so much more offending that made even Polish fairy tale writers feel uncomfortable. Thus Bolesław Leśmian (Very respected Polish poet and fairy tale writer of XX century), I think it was him, gave a nice touch.
Leśmian's Prince initially didn't intend to kiss the Princess on the lips. He kissed her on her cheeks and nothing happened. He kissed her on her lips and nothing happened. When he came to realisation he isn't able to restore the life that was ended so prematurely, that this young girl is never going to be free, his tears start falling freely. Only then the Sleeping Beauty wakes up. Not love, but empathy awoke heroine. I love this moral.
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Little Red Riding Hood? Don't talk to strangers in the forest.
Toads & Diamonds? Be polite to your elders.
Beauty & The Beast? Arranged marriages aren't that bad.
Bearskin? Don't judge by appearances.
I just don't see the issue here. It's not like she's saying Snow White is a bad movie due to one little scene. She's just teaching an applicable lesson.
I saw an interview with Kiera Knightley, who is promoting her new film the new live action Nutcracker, in which she shares why she straight up banned certain Disney fairy tales.I couldn’t find the exact interview but this one hits her main points. I think her motives are good but I can’t get behind banning. I think it’s important to let kids read for themselves and then have a discussion with them.
https://hellogiggles.com/news/kiera-k...
ETA: I shared the above because I think it shows the other way a parent can go: discussion vs banning.
I like Kristen Bell's approach. Except I would remove the leading structure of her questions. "Don't you think it's weird..." right away alerts the kid that their mom thinks it's weird and maybe they should think that too.
A better question would be, "What do you think about Snow White not asking why..." and then waiting for the child to respond. And then the parent shares their viewpoint, "I think it's weird she didn't ask..."
By not including one's stance in the original question, we avoid skewing the response to match our own. Also, as a parent, if I ask my kid a question (without leading them to the desired answered) I can then see where they're actually at in their learning. For example, if the kid replies, "I thought it was strange that Snow White ate an apple from a complete stranger." I know the kid already gets it and I'd just respond "Yeah, me too!" But if the kid responds, "I would've asked for two apples," then I know we need to have a longer discussion.
I agree with Bell, the outrage is annoying and misplaced. She discusses the movies she watches with her children? How horrible!Kiera Knightley on the other hand is a stuck up B.
"The actress revealed that she’s careful about which Disney movies she lets her daughter watch because so many entail a female protagonist getting rescued by a man."
Considering the epidemic of weak, subservient, useless women who were taught the wrong morals as children that we appear to suffer from, you'd think I'd actually met one at this point. Anyone. Ever.
"we have to admit: Knightley makes some good points."
Does she?
""Cinderella is banned because, you know, she waits around for a rich guy to rescue her. Don’t. Rescue yourself, obviously," she told host Ellen DeGeneres.
I assume the point here is "Don't accept help from anyone. Especially not under any circumstances a man, obviously".
""This is the one I'm quite annoyed about because I really like the film, but The Little Mermaid. The songs are great but do not give your voice up for a man. Hello?" she added."
I haven't seen The Little Mermaid in 15 years or so, but I'm pretty sure that's not the message in the film.
Sure, it happens in the film. But how is this any worse than Elsa throwing a tantrum, nearly destroying the kingdom and acting like a brat the entire movie? Oh right! There is no man involved in that! Duh, it's obviously okay then.
She should have done it like Bell and watched the movies with her kids, said "That's dumb, don't do that kids" and actually act like a responsible adult and not some raging teenager.
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As a new mother, I have definitely thought about how I'm going to handle Disney movies and censorship, and talked it over with my husband. We made a similar decision as Leah. We'll read them the tales, and discuss them. Use them as motivators for critical thinking, but using more of Leah's terminology than Bell's, although I agree with Bell's stance.
For the Disney movies, I won't 'ban' them. I'm not a big fan, personally, of blanket bans. But I also don't own the movies, and we're not going to buy them for her. Instead, I'm collecting all of the Studio Ghibli films, and other more recent fairytale movies, like Song of the Sea.
I'm SURE she'll end up watching some Disney princess movies somewhere. Or experience some of the princess saturation. And that's fine. What I hope to have is a relationship with my daughter where we can talk about how she thinks about movies and princesses.
And princesses can be kickass, of course, and I already have a plethora of feminist books --princess and otherwise -- at home for us to discuss.
Right now, the discussions go something like this:
Me: "Marian, what do you think about how this princess rescued the prince?"
Marian: "Ba ba ba ba, SCREAM, *giggle* *grumble grumble grumble*." Throws book.
In Grimm, Snow White is saved when her coffin is dropped and the apple is knocked loose in her throat.
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I remember being so surprised by that the first time I read the Grimm version. And it makes so much more sense, ha.
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Disney movies have their place too but they are no substitute for the original tales and it bothers me that many people only know their versions. It was only as an adult I realised that many of the most known fairy tales I knew, like Snow White and Cinderella were actually the Disney versions.
My son hated fairy tales when he was little, so at a certain point I stopped even attempting to read them to him.
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Mary wrote: "In Grimm, Snow White is saved when her coffin is dropped and the apple is knocked loose in her throat."
Or, if you go to the ultimate originals, (1st edition Grimms), the prince takes her, in her coffin, back to his palace and has his servants cart her body from room to room so that she's with him always... The servants get sick of the extra work after awhile, and slap her around when the prince isn't paying attention, and it's that which dislodges the bite of apple.
I don’t believe in banning books, either. But I do think it's important to sit with your children and help them deconstruct the book they are reading and/or the movie they have just watched. As Margaret said, it trains them to think critically—valuable training they will need for the rest of their lives.I have a funny example.
Both my boys are avid readers. When my eldest was still quite young, he read Charlotte's Web. After he finished it, I asked him a series of questions about the book:
Question: Who did all the work behind the scenes?
Response: Charlotte, the spider
Question: Who got all the credit?
Response: Wilbur, the pig
Question: Why did Charlotte help Wilbur?
Response: Because she was kind and wanted to save him
Question: Why did Wilbur take all the credit?
Response: Because he was thinking only of himself
Question: Was it fair that he took the credit for someone else’s work?
Response: NO!
Question: So, what have you understood from this?
At this point, he scrunched up his little face, thought about it for a few minutes, and then shouted out: “All men are pigs!”
And so I had to spend the next 30 minutes explaining to him that no, all men are not pigs. But SOME PEOPLE are willing to take credit for other people’s work. And so we always have to ask ourselves who is actually doing all the work behind the scenes and acknowledge that individual for his/her work regardless of who is up front and taking all the credit.
Margaret wrote: "Mary wrote: "In Grimm, Snow White is saved when her coffin is dropped and the apple is knocked loose in her throat."I remember being so surprised by that the first time I read the Grimm version. ..."
If we're talking movie adaptations: That's why I've always much preferred the Cannon Movie Tales Snow White to Disney's.
Melanti wrote: "Disney tales are already rather tame in comparison to the originals. Mary wrote: "In Grimm, Snow White is saved when her coffin is dropped and the apple is knocked loose in her throat."
Or, if y..."
Amateur folklorist popping in to point out that a) these are not the originals (the Grimm brothers collected tales they heard from others and then edited them according to their own morals) and b) there's no point in looking for the original version of any story. No one knows where it was first told or how. :)
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Mary wrote: "In Grimm, Snow White is saved when her coffin is dropped and the apple is knocked loose in her th..."
Well, of course. Just pointing out that even during the Grimms' lifetime, there was some drastic editing to get things to be more kid-friendly.
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I haven't watched that. I'll have to check it out!
On the topic of kids having a different take on fairy tales than their parents.... Has anyone seen the one where a girl is explaining to her father how much she likes Princess Leia's slave dress in star wars? It cracks me up every time.https://www.tubefilter.com/2014/12/22...
Tamara wrote: Question: Who got all the credit?Response: Wilbur, the pig
Question: Why did Charlotte help Wilbur?
Response: Because she was kind and wanted to save him
Question: Why did Wilbur take all the credit?
Response: Because he was thinking only of himself"
Huh?
Did anyone in the book give Wilbur credit for Charlotte's webs?
And when was Wilbur not grateful for his life being saved?
Mary wrote: "Tamara wrote: Question: Who got all the credit?Response: Wilbur, the pig
Question: Why did Charlotte help Wilbur?
Response: Because she was kind and wanted to save him
Question: Why did Wilbur tak..."
My point was that Charlotte never received the credit for the webs even though she did all the work. If I remember correctly, Wilbur was saved and Charlotte quietly went into a corner and died.
Charlotte died of old age, and Wilbur brought her eggs, laid at the fair, back to the farm at cost to himself so her little spiders could grow up in the safety of his sty's roof.
Any thoughts?