"The Traitor Baru Cormorant" Full Discussion *Spoilers*

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

So what did you love? What didn't you love? What spoke to you? What left you feeling cold like an Aurdwynni winter?

[David]

I read this book a couple years ago. I'm not generally a fan of books where I can't relate to the main character... and it's pretty clear to me that Baru is, if not a psychopath, then at least some sort of awful. I mean, the sequel coming out later this month is called The Monster Baru Cormorant.

That said, I liked the book. I found it interesting, but in a detached sort of way. It's not the sort of book I'd ever re-read, but I do want to know what happens in the sequel.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Okay I finished it. The first 2-3 chapters and the last 2 chapters were interesting. I found the rest tedious, manipulative, downright badly researched and the characters all hateworthy. There were a couple I felt I could have found a positive emotion for, but they were all killed or mangled by the writing to make Baru seen as hero when she was only ever a mass murderer with a bad sense of economics and a mouth that wrote a lot of checks her bank and brawn couldn't cash.

I am very curious to know where my disconnect was, and what worked for everyone else.

[David]

Sounds like at least part of it is that you're a victim of It doesn't work like that? It might be easier for those of us who don't know anything about economics.

That said, I too am curious about all the people who claim they like Baru.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Yes, absolutely one of those times when knowing how it works ruins the magic. And agreed, I genuinely can't wait to hear from people who say there are characters they love! I want to know what I'm missing! What about it was interesting to you? The politicking?

[David]

It's been a while since I read it so I don't totally remember, but the Empire in this book was new and unusual (at least to me... maybe I don't read the right subgenres). I also seem to like stories with impossible ethical choices. I want to find out if the end will justify the means. I think a lot of it's just anticipation. I want to see how it all pans out.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Yes, there is some suspense to it for sure. And I can see the ethical aspects being compelling, in a world where I saw them as feasible dilemmas.

[Kaa]

I read this when it first came out, and I loved it at the time. After hearing the comments from this group read, I'm kind of curious about how I'd feel if I read it again today. I think my reaction would be more complicated now, especially regarding how homophobia plays out in the story. I really liked Baru because I'm fond of homicidal geniuses (and I don't know enough about economics to be able to tell how unrealistic that part was, which I'm sure also helped), and at that point I'd read very little fantasy with a queer woman as the protagonist. I think, three years later, I'd be a bit more critical, which always makes me question what to do with my rating.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I know for a fact more than three of us finished! Where are you? Are you hiding from me? Don't! I want to hear what everyone enjoyed! I want to know what you think will happen in the second book! I will keep frothing at the mouth to the absolute minimum and use a napkin when it's unavoidable!

[David]

I remember one think that kept me interested while I was reading: while title of the book was kind of a spoiler, I never totally knew who she was going to end up betraying. In retrospect "everyone" might have been the obvious answer, but I didn't totally know until the end.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

David wrote: "In retrospect "everyone" might have been the obvious answer, but I didn't totally know until the end."

XD

It's true, I must concede it is aptly named!

[Bobby]

Okay so I finished just now, and my feelings on the book changed several times. It went from 5 stars for the first two chapters, to 2 stars for the next 10 or so chapters, to 3 for the next 10 chapters, to 5 for the last 8 or so. I gave it 4 stars total. I was close to not finishing when I got to chapter 10, but I kept on and was glad I did.

I think what I liked most were the moral dilemmas and the betrayals. I don't know what that says about me, but I was on the edge of my seat to see how far Baru would go during the rebellion. She does evil things for a supposedly noble reason. However, there is a point where the goal is not worth the evil done to achieve it. So I don't like Baru as a character even though I empathize with her situation, but not liking her doesn't change how interesting the story was to me.

One thing that worked for me was the traitor point of view. I can't think of any other novels where the protagonist is a traitor to the sympathetic side. It was interesting to see that perspective where the people I was rooting for (mostly Tain Hu) were betrayed by the POV character.

Instead of having the morally superior but much weaker underdog winning against all odds, you have the main character join the enemy to (supposedly) destroy them from within. I'm very interested in how Baru will attempt to bring down the empire, and what it will cost.

[Mareike]

I finished late last night after a long day, so I needed time to think about it.
I agree with a lot of the things Bobby has said. I was mostly drawn in by Baru's single-minded focus on somehow gaining enough power within the Masquerade to overthrow it or at keast "save" Taranoke. Though it is also clear that she "can't go home again" and I'm not sure in how far she's allowed herself to realize that. There is a sad, nostalgic undertone to the story that touched me. (And reminded me of Robbin Hobb's books in a way.)
It was fascinating watching her going forward with the rebellion and the things she was willing to do to win. (Some of that should have been clues....) We're supposed to be rooting for her and at the same time, I think, we're supposed to be horrified by what she's willing to do and by how the imperial power structures work on her. Really, the final betrayal was and wasn't a surprise.
Speaking of imperialism, I really liked how the book used a fantasy setting to explore the workings of empire and how people are made and make themselves into tools for "the throne", even if they want to overthrow it.
And some of these tools are eugenics/Incrasticism and homophobia. Again, I think the novel did a good job of exploring how these are used for conquest and domination. If I were to recommend this book to anyone, I would always slap on a huge content warning about this. Ultimately, the homophobia was not a dealbreaker for me because it was clearly depicted as wrong and destructive and something that is used to control populations, unlike in other fantasy series, where homophobia is included "because it's based on European history and that's how people thought in xx century." This book is based in European history, too, but it doesn't take the easy way out in explaining why this is a thing, I think.
In addition, Baru isn't depicted as a traitor/evil because she's a queer woman. It, and the death of Father Salm, are clearly motivations for her, but they're motivations we understand. It's not the shorthand of evil = queer that has been used in other sf/f books. And we do see, to a certaun extent, what denying this part of herself does to her and that it's not good. The fact that most (all?) of the other queer characters die (and often gruesome deaths) did leave me with a bad taste in my mouth.
So, I do get your criticism, Allison, and I agree that the terms "sodomite" and "tribadist" are out of place. Think of your own words - readers will catch on! (Granted, I'm a straight person, so I'm not sure how much my opinion on the depiction of queer people homophobia in the book should count.)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Bobby, agreed! A very different approach!

Hmm, Mareike, what in the end read as sympathetic about Baru to you?

And a question for everyone, why do you think Baru went forward with devaluing the currency if she ultimately wanted to gain the trust of the rebellion?

[Mareike]

I think I could identify with her need to "rescue Taranoke" and the deep-seated anger that she feels about that. (For example when the island is re-named.)
But I was also just drawn in by the excitement of the various plots and the question of "Will this work or will she be found out."
And I think some of her caring for some of the other characters (e g. Muire Lo and Tain Hu) was genuine. Which makes everything else even worse. The way she thinks about her injury definitely seems to suggest that she thinks she has killed a part of herself - possibly the better part.

I actually think she did that for the reason given in the book: because the common folk would love her for the loans in hard currency - though I wonder how realistic that is.
And didn't someone imply that she'd need the common people to get the nobles?

I wonder how much Xate Yawa knew? Did she know Baru was working towards her ascension, too?

[Bobby]

Allison wrote: "Bobby, agreed! A very different approach!

Hmm, Mareike, what in the end read as sympathetic about Baru to you?

And a question for everyone, why do you think Baru went forward with devaluing the ..."

I think she devalued the currency to genuinely stop the rebellion. There wasn't a good choice so she chose halting the progress of the Masquerade in order to bankrupt the Dukes. I just let my suspension of disbelief carry me through the questions about how the economics would work.

Baru didn't want to help the rebellion until after Apparator spoke to her about another way to gain power in the Masquerade, so the first attempt at stopping the rebellion through economic ruin was genuine.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Bobby wrote: "Baru didn't want to help the rebellion until after Apparator spoke to her about another way to gain power in the Masquerade, so the first attempt at stopping the rebellion through economic ruin was genuine. "

But then at the end she says she know what ...I've already forgotten his name. The merchant guy. She says she knew what he wanted of her this whole time and gave him a complete ruination of the rebellion.

When she spoke to Apparator I thought she was realizing she didn't need to necessarily court the entire bureaucracy of Parliament, just needed to prove herself to the people behind the throne, so it's not like she also had to fix the problem she made. I was under the impression that she was always going to go after the whole rebellion though.

[Bobby]

I was just saying that she didn't plan to join the rebellion until after she had already devalued the currency. We skipped 3 years of her apparently drinking her sorrows away. When she talked to Apparator, she realized she still had a chance to get the power she wanted, and said something like "I know what you want me to do." I thought that was the point when she decided to join and ultimately betray the rebellion.

I might have missed it if she mentions she had planned to join the rebels from the very beginning.

[Bobby]

As a side note, I just wanted to say that the cover for this book is really good, and contributed to my initial interest, but the cover for the sequel is absolutely amazing. It shows a smirking mask that is on fire on it's right side. The side that Baru is blinded on! I don't usually let covers sway me, but the combination of the cover and the title is making me very excited for the next book, which comes out at the end of this month.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I do like the covers a lot! I hope you will join Mareike in sharing with me your thoughts/the synopsis so that I can enjoy it through your enthusiasm!

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

IDK if I could do 4 books of this. But I do want to know what happens.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

As for the central plot, she says "I know what you want me to do" 3 times, to my memory.

Once when she's put on Aurdwynn. Once when she talks to the Apparator. And Once at the end when she reveals that betrayal had been her mission from the start.

So, my thinking was this. Initially, what's his name (WHN) the merchant says "I'm powerful and this is a test." So she knows she has to stop a rebellion, but not only stop this rebellion, she needs to prove Aurdwynn can be ruled.

So first she decides to stop the rebellion. For now, we'll just roll with her policy. Then she thinks that she'll need to either wait for it all to blow over or regain trust from Parliament to try Phase 2 of her plan, which means lots of waiting.

But then the Apparator shows up and says, essentially, "I don't think you understand. You don't need to play Parliament's game. You need to play our game." And she realizes she doesn't have to wait anymore, doesn't need Parliament or anything. She's beyond their control.

So she goes back to Plan A which is rule Aurdwynn and then break them.

I thought her indoctrination into the conspiracy wasn't very good either, but skating past that, if I'm right and her plan was stop Tain Hu's rebellion (and why did Tain Hu sell it out to Baru, hmm?) and all rebellion to prover herself to WHN then why ruin the economy? Why not use Tain Hu's trust to get an "in" to the conspiracy and just start the takedown from a point of trust?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Also, seriously, what's his name? lol

[Anna]

Cairdine Farrier

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Anna wrote: "Cairdine Farrier"

Right!! Thank yooou. That was driving me crazy.

[Bobby]

Allison wrote: "Anna wrote: "Cairdine Farrier"

Right!! Thank yooou. That was driving me crazy."

I couldn't remember his name off the top of my head either. To be fair, they usually call him Itinerant after the beginning of the book.

[Mareike]

Allison wrote: "As for the central plot, she says "I know what you want me to do" 3 times, to my memory.

Once when she's put on Aurdwynn. Once when she talks to the Apparator. And Once at the end when she reveals..."

I think Tain Hu sold out her rebellion in order to protect the larger rebellion planned by Xate Olake. At least that's what I thought.

She was told about the power behind the throne very quickly for someone who'd just set the Masquerade's plans back a decade and been drinking like a fish for three years. But the conspirators had probably been watching her since she entered the school. And by devaluing the currency she had shown them how ruthless she could be, which is probably exactly what they wanted. And if she failed they could wait for her to be killed in the chaos of rebellion or kill her themselves.

[Nathanael]

For me, I didn't like Baru as a person. She's too much of a monster by the end of the novel for me to feel more for her than pity and a sort of repulsed admiration for the way she manipulated her way into a position to destroy the empire. I did like her in the sense that I found her to be a really fascinating, complicated character. Monsters with a noble cause in the books I've read tend to be the antagonist rather than the protagonist (if they aren't just a complete powerhungry fraud), so it's a headspace I haven't experienced much. I'm torn between wanting to see her succeed, because the empire is genuinely horrible, but also afraid of the escalation of her tactics. I can't help but wonder if the finale of the series will see her not only destroying herself and her enemies, but the people she wants to save in the process.

[Mareike]

Yeah, I don't think we're supposed to like her by the end. "Horrified pity" might be the best way for me to summarize my feelings.

[Oleksandr]

I finished it yesterday and I still have to think it over. I haven't expected the end, I assumed that after the rebels win there will be a squabble between them and Baru will see that they are worse than the Masquerade...

I haven't liked her much up to a point that I was rooting for the Masquerade during the war.

As for economics, I may make a separate post about the mistakes (in my view) if anyone interested

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Glad I'm not alone, Oleksandr! I'll be curious to hear what you decide about the story :)

(Not *not* interested in your thoughts on the economics, but I did promise above I'd try to keep my rabidness to a minimum, so you do you!)

[Oleksandr]

Other two minor things, which I found strange:

- almost no emotions regarding her supposed love - it seemed strange/artificial to me when Baru took Tain Hu to bad, before that I haven't felt Baru as seriously in love, when you constantly think/worry about the other person

- it is kind of cool that there is no magic or magic beasts, instead the chemistry is developed. It is ok that they lack guns, but if they have explosives I'd think they should more actively use slings instead of 'one shoot wonder' rockets or less powerful bows

[Mareike]

Oleksandr wrote: "Other two minor things, which I found strange:

- almost no emotions regarding her supposed love - it seemed strange/artificial to me when Baru took Tain Hu to bad, before that I haven't felt Baru ..."

I thought we got glimpses of Baru's feelings for Tain Hu (for example when they're at that stone circle int he woods), but that she had suppressed them quite strongly so as not to put herself and her position (or Tain Hu) in jeopardy.
This is why her decision after the battle, to chose Tain Hu made me suspicious. I knew something else was about to go down after that.

I agree! There's mostly superior technology. Your point about technologies is well made. It was a little hard to pin down what the stages of development were, since they have torpedoes, but also still use lances and swords....

[Bobby]

Oleksandr wrote: "- it is kind of cool that there is no magic or magic beasts, instead the chemistry is developed. It is ok that they lack guns, but if they have explosives I'd think they should more actively use slings instead of 'one shoot wonder' rockets or less powerful bows "

You're right, that was an aspect I forgot to mention. The blurb and reviews I read said nothing about magic or mythical creatures, but called it a geopolitical fantasy, so I just assumed there would be something about it that would be magical or at least different from our world. I was a little bit surprised that I liked it so much even though it didn't have the typical fantasy elements I enjoy.

So just wondering what others think. Do you still consider this a Fantasy novel? If not, what would you call it?

[Oleksandr]

Mareike wrote: "I thought we got glimpses of Baru's feelings for Tain Hu (for example when they're at that stone circle int he woods), but that she had suppressed them quite strongly so as not to put herself and her position (or Tain Hu) in jeopardy. "

Maybe you are right, I just thought that the author would be able to describe her inner feelings w/o betraying them to the world outside. I even supposed that she had some love interest in Lo about which she was afraid to even think.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Bobby wrote: "Oleksandr wrote: "- it is kind of cool that there is no magic or magic beasts, instead the chemistry is developed. It is ok that they lack guns, but if they have explosives I'd think they should mo..."

I still call it fantasy. It's on another world so it's "high fantasy." There are lots of gods and licenses being taken with things like weaponry, social structures, and geography to make something cool but unreal.

[Mareike]

I'm inclined to agree with Allison here. It's fantasy because it's so clearly not set in our world.

@Oleksandr: Oh, interesting! I just thought she cared for him because he reminded her of herself. Child of a subjugated nation, trained by the Masquerade and then put to work.....
I remember wondering about Aminata and how she seemed to have mostly forgotten her during the rebellion, even though she was clearly interested in her. I still think her feelings for Tain Hu were probably genuine, but I also think she has feelings for Aminata. The letter at the end definitely hints at a deeper, ongoing connection that the novel hid from us.

[Oleksandr]

Mareike wrote: "but I also think she has feelings for Aminata. The letter at the end definitely hints at a deeper, ongoing connection that the novel hid from us. "

After all the previous betrayals I assumed that a letter can be a test to 'purge' the Navy from possible 'non-pure' officers.

Also regarding the magic, I think we will see a bit of it in the 2nd volume - one of the letters at the end mentioned the disturbing findings of our expeditions across the Mother of Storms. (We must confront the possibility that these eyewitness accounts are not hallucinations, and that natural law on the supercontinent somehow differs from our own.) - it is very likely that there is something supernatural.

Oh, and I agree that this is fantasy, for it is a very broad term

[Mareike]

Oleksandr wrote: "Mareike wrote: "but I also think she has feelings for Aminata. The letter at the end definitely hints at a deeper, ongoing connection that the novel hid from us. "

After all the previous betrayals..."

Oh, I hadn't considered that the letter might be that. I figured since we learn early on that Baru and Aminata had that secret language, that they had somehow kept their contact secret....But it might have been another test.

What do you think this Mother of Storms is? Something like the Bermuda Triangle?

[Oleksandr]

Mareike wrote: "What do you think this Mother of Storms is? Something like the Bermuda Triangle? "

I guess it is a large ocean like our Pacific, which separates distant lands. Storms are born in oceans, so they are mothers.

[Mareike]

Oleksandr wrote: "Mareike wrote: "What do you think this Mother of Storms is? Something like the Bermuda Triangle? "

I guess it is a large ocean like our Pacific, which separates distant lands. Storms are born in o..."

Yes, that makes sense. And Europeans used to have all kinds of weird ideas about what lay across the ocean....

[Mitch]

Allison wrote: "As for the central plot, she says "I know what you want me to do" 3 times, to my memory.

Once when she's put on Aurdwynn. Once when she talks to the Apparator. And Once at the end when she reveals..."

Hi Allison. I like your post because it clarified something that I really didn't like about the novel. Because so much of the plot's emotional strength rests on the surprise of that final betrayal, it felt unfair to be so surprised. The third person narration spends a lot of time in Baru's head, so we should have been clued into her thinking much sooner. It drives me crazy when writers throw a development that so depends on not telling us what she would obviously be thinking. Your post suggests that her betrayal is perhaps a gradual development instead of something she intended from the beginning. I'd be interested in anyone else's thinking about this.

[Oleksandr]

Mitch wrote: "Your post suggests that her betrayal is perhaps a gradual development instead of something she intended from the beginning. I'd be interested in anyone else's thinking about this. "

Erm, depends on where is the beginning? Was she planning it is school? I guess not. Just as she became an accountant and moved to Aurdwynn? Still no, she is interested then how the parliament works - she seeks ways upward but does not limit herself with just one path

[Mareike]

Oleksandr wrote: "Mitch wrote: "Your post suggests that her betrayal is perhaps a gradual development instead of something she intended from the beginning. I'd be interested in anyone else's thinking about this. "

..."

Actually, I thought she was already planning the betrayal if the Masquerade when she was in school. Remember, she had that exchange with her mother about how to fight them.


Her betrayal of the rebellion might be gradual, but it sounded like it was all set up to go like that from the beginning.

[Oleksandr]

Mareike wrote: "Actually, I thought she was already planning the betrayal if the Masquerade when she was in school. Remember, she had that exchange with her mother about how to fight them."

In rough terms - just to betray it - yes, I agree. However, how to betray, which route to the top take - it changed during the story I think

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

When I finished 'The Traitor Baru Cormorant', my only thought was welcome back to the world of political history and realpolitik. The books which popped into my head were: The Prince and History of the Peloponnesian War.

Rulers are educated to think differently than the populations they rule over. Religion, Armies, civilians - all are tools to be applied in Command and Control operations. In fact, religion, armies and civilization are all inventions as well as tools of rulers, charismatic leaders and dictators, you know. However, all rulers are human beings which means they can be beautiful, emotional, loving. People who are wrapped up in family, church and neighborhoods, though, think WAY smaller than rulers of civilizations. Rulers think in terms about the powers they hold to shape the survival and creation of their country or civilization or their place in history, not anything so minor as personal lives or personal morality. Morality and laws are things rulers make up to create and shape, not follow or believe. Believing anything is for the moronic civilians - rulers create beliefs.

This book reminded me of The War of the Roses.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_...

Also Elizabeth I.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliza...

And the rule of China by Qin Shihuang, First Emperor. And Napoleon. And Augustus. And Franco. Hopefully, people get rulers who are not insane like Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Hitler, and Stalin, or rulers who only want to enrich themselves, like Gadafi, Hussein, Duvalier.

I also was reminded of Robin Hobb's novels, too.

A lot of people think politics doesn't matter, but books like this one are to remind us it certainly does. Whatever form of governance the continent of Aurdwynn has (Duchies or democracies or dictatorships) or whatever religions the Dukes and Duchesses enforce on their territories, or whatever language the citizens must learn for economic advantage, is determined by whoever holds the most power and money, in this case The Masquerade. Baru wants to be one of those rulers like Elizabeth I who must play the game of realpolitik to have the Power to reshape The Masquerade.

It is very clear to me The Masquerade could care less if eugenics is moral or not - they have a goal of remaking physical flesh into a body ideal which they believe will serve the Power of The Masquerade. The prohibitions on homosexuality is clearly about increase fertility, not to impose a morality per se. Morality is a vehicle of Power, a tool, to rulers and leaders - always has been in the Real World, always will be.

Right and wrong has nothing to do with Authority, only Power.

There is a hint of fantasy magic on another continent, so I guess this world is a fantasy, but to me, it is a fiction about actual political history.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

The Masquerade reminds me of the British Empire, btw.

[Mareike]

Oleksandr wrote: "Mareike wrote: "Actually, I thought she was already planning the betrayal if the Masquerade when she was in school. Remember, she had that exchange with her mother about how to fight them."

In rou..."

Oh, yes! That definitely.

aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "A lot of people think politics doesn't matter, but books like this one are to remind us it certainly does. Whatever form of governance the continent of Aurdwynn has (Duchies or democracies or dictatorships) or whatever religions the Dukes and Duchesses enforce on their territories, or whatever language the citizens must learn for economic advantage, is determined by whoever holds the most power and money, in this case The Masquerade. Baru wants to be one of those rulers like Elizabeth I who must play the game of realpolitik to have the Power to reshape The Masquerade...."

I agree with all of this. Thank you for putting it so well!
In terms of its portrayal of power structures and how they impact and make people complicit, the book is a lot more complicated and unflinching than most fantasy I've read, and yes, Robin Hobb's explores similar things.

I did like that the book didn't take the easy way out and portrayed the Dukes and Duchesses as "good" vs. the "bad" Masquerade. Clearly, the rule of the nobility has huge drawbacks for common people and the book points that out.

And I agree, that the Masquerade was probably inspired heavily by the British Empire. Especially where Eugenics are concerned, but also in the way they took over Baru's homeland and instituted their schools.

[Amanda]

I'd just like to say how much I enjoyed the early school scenes. I found it refreshing that Baru didn't have to prove herself to the rest of the students or teachers. I was getting a little burned out on that particular trope. While we get early hints that Baru is testing the power structure and learning how to navigate it, the focus isn't that she doesn't belong at school, but how she's trying to help others from within.

[Oleksandr]

Mareike wrote: "I did like that the book didn't take the easy way out and portrayed the Dukes and Duchesses as "good" vs. the "bad" Masquerade. Clearly, the rule of the nobility has huge drawbacks for common people and the book points that out.."

Agreed. At the same time I think that Baru's native land and culture is just too good to be true, for she looks only on physical side (Did you know that we died of tooth abscess, child? It was very nearly the foremost cause of death. How grateful we must be for dentists) but nothing bad in the culture... no teenage brides, married by the will of their family or slavery and mutilation... alas many 'native' cultures, destroyed by Europeans, had it as well.