"Dreadnought" by April Daniels (BR)

[Ariana]

Allison wrote: "There are 2 things I keep coming back to (finished Ch. 28)..."

I wholeheartedly agree with points 2 and 3! For point 1, I found the passage from Ch. 5 (view spoiler)[when Danny first meets Doc Impossible:

Doc Impossible shrugs. “I don’t know. You’re a sample size of one, so it’s hard to draw any firm conclusions. If I had to say, I’d guess that the mantle can only do so much with what it has available to work with when the change happens. For instance, your testicles have migrated up into your abdomen and have been reconfigured to secrete estrogen and progesterone, but they don’t have any eggs, and are anatomically recognizable as testes.”

So it sounds like she sort of is on estrogen, even if it's naturally produced? Or at least it's some justification for why her hormones are different than before. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Yeah, and it's not that that doesn't make sense. Thanks for finding that again!

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

Allison wrote: "There are 2 things I keep coming back to (finished Ch. 28)


I'm thirding all of these points, and, honestly, some of these points are a reason why I'm more meh about this book than everyone else.

Ranting ahead

I just found the (view spoiler)[discussion of gender to be so reductionist.

Like, an early sign, according to her mom, was that she liked princesses and didn't go through a cootie phase? And I comment on the whole 'dad forcing her to play sports' thing earlier because, as we know, sports is totally a dudes only arena.

And I got really annoyed by the "I'm a girl, so I feel emotions clearer now". Like, how fucking stereotypical of the "emotional female". Sorry, but guys feel emotions, too.

I was talking about this with my husband last night and he recalled reading something which suggested male emotions were recorded as being stronger but also more focused... like, men would feel one emotion at a time, but strongly... whereas women's emotions were more diffuse, in a way, but also compounded.

It reminded me of the scene in Harry Potter where Hermione is explaining how Cho feels and the guys are like, "No one could feel all those things at once. They'd explode."

Now, that's purely anecdotal and, unfortunately, a quick google search this morning wasn't able to find anything about the study/article he recalled reading.

What I did find was a lot of studies which suggest that there actually isn't all that much different in men and women feeling emotions and there's debate about the differences which do present and how much of this is biological/hormonal and how much of it is societal - but women are "allowed" to be more emotionally expressive than men, as part of that whole toxic masculinity thing.

(I put allowed in quotes because while it's more socially acceptable, on one hand, it also seems, to me, like women are also punished for it. I've been told at work that I shouldn't show my emotions because it's "unprofessional" - even if I'm being bombarded and at my wits end. Men are allowed to be angry, though. But if women are angry then they're "temperamental" or unbalanced or whatever. Anyway... )

I guess this stuff bothered me more than other people because I feel like I've had to fight gender role expectations my whole life, and it annoys me that a book that's meant to explore gender stuff basically attributes everything to biological causation and seems to gloss over or completely ignore the societal aspects of it - except negatively, via Greywytch - and then it also so reductive of gender differences. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I can see what you mean, Colleen.

(view spoiler)[

I wasn't as impacted by it as strongly thought because I know that performative femininity (in the case of trans women) is a reclamation of self for many of them? Princesses are something I see as very powerful for a lot of my NB and trans-spectrum friends. Pink is a reactionary color etc etc. So while I definitely don't want to over-generalize or say that there's a difference in AFAB and AMAB women I do think our journey to acceptance and empowerment differs at the individual level. Just like I don't hate on my AFAB women friends for giggling and loving princesses and doing their makeup or whatever, I doubly wouldn't deny that to people who just for the first time are getting to feel out for themselves what it means to be a seen as a woman, to be allowed to express themselves as women.

I think that's why I liked the scenes with her awful BF and Sarah, where she gets sort of indoctrinated into the highs and lows of friendship as fem.

But totally with you on the emotions stuff. It wasn't a big part (or at least, not as of where I am presently!) but it obviously grates on me. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Science has found no evidence of gender-linked (or even sex-linked!) personality traits. It has, however, found lots of evidence on social training in personality traits. (hide spoiler)]

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

Allison wrote: "I can see what you mean, Colleen...


I get it, to a degree... meaning I understand how (view spoiler)[performative femininity can be important and empowering and reclaiming, and I'm certain not opposed to her, or any woman - or any person, for that matter - loving princesses, and pink, etc. - (though I've also read some accounts on how it can be restricting because some women feel the need to be performative in order to pass, and that they won't be able to pass if they wear a t-shirt and jeans and how they feel the need to be always "on", which must be exhausting).

I mentioned earlier that I liked the makeup scene, to a degree, because it was one of those moments that felt really genuine and was a nice bonding thing between Sarah and her that was outside of caping.

I think my issue was more in the presentation/writing. It felt less, to me, like Danny's exploration of and discovery of her own femininity and what it means, for her, to be girl... and more like a "this is what femininity is".

And maybe I'm projecting a little, I'm not sure, but I think that, along with the emotions thing and the lack of exploration of societal aspects of gender roles... I kind of ended up feeling like it was just a lack on the part of the author to really explore certain ideas in a way which wasn't reductive, overall.

(It also might've been cool if doc Impossible mentioned some of the neuroscience aspects of gender, though maybe she did and I missed it.) (hide spoiler)]

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

Random side note that a review just reminded me of... the (view spoiler)[I'm a girl so suddenly I care about what I eat because, eww, fat... (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

colleen the convivial curmudgeon wrote: " I get it, to a degree... meaning I understand how..."

100% agree that there were a lot of missed opportunities!! I'd have loved it if we had more an exploration of (view spoiler)[ gender, as you say. I think Doc is my favorite character of the lot, so I'd love to have seen more about her, and really deep-dived into the changes and trans experience. I'm glad for things like verbally punching TERFs (Graywytch) and transphobes and all the rest, but yeah, this book would have been phenomenal if it'd gone a bit deeper. And I can see how you'd feel that it was suggesting there's one way to be feminine, which is sad if that's how people hear it. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

colleen the convivial curmudgeon wrote: "Random side note that a review just reminded me of... the [spoilers removed]"

Spoiler Ch 9

Yeah, another missed opportunity I think to talk about body image and (view spoiler)[ some other effects of transitioning, like constant nausea. One friend basically acquired an aversion to food while her body adjusted to all the new stuff she was doing to it and couldn't eat solids for a year or more. I think I read these parts in sort of "shorthand" because I was glad for the nod? But I'd have loved the exploration. (hide spoiler)]

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

I'm willing to give it a little bit of a pass because it's the first in a series and Danny did just transition, so things are all new and weird, and she's a teenager, so that's crazy enough as it is...

Hopefully future books will delve a bit more and take the change to be a bit more nuanced in their exploration of various topics.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I have finished and caught up on all of your comments!! I think we are all largely in agreement here, it's just a matter of how much it annoyed vs. how much you were "caught up" with Danny. And I totally get being annoyed.

The only thing a little different for me (spoiler for full book) (view spoiler)[ was that I felt that the characters had hand-written signs on them. THE TERF. THE TOXIC MASCULINE. THE PATRIARCHY. And I'm actually for punching all of those repeatedly, so not really a complaint but I'd have loved it if this had been fleshed out more instead of relying on my knee-jerk reaction to Twitter-rant-obvious trans-and homo-phobes. Just because I wanted to be glad to hate them, rather than think the whole time about how I should really wade back into X Facebook fight again.

I also thought it was a strong commentary on allies who fall down on trans issues. What did we all think about Danny's demand to have TERFwytch kicked out, and Cholorophyll's actions? (hide spoiler)]

ETA thank you all, as usual, for adding things from your lives to your interpretation. Getting to spend time in the heads of other people is one of my favorite things about reading. Hearing your experiences really adds so much to that exercise.

[Gabi]

I'm through, and it was a nice read ... but unfortunately not more for me. I couldn't connect with any of the characters, although I liked some of the identity scenes. At least I can say, I read my first superhero novel and now know for sure, why I never read one before ;).

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

It's good to try new things!! Glad you stuck it out, Gabi!

[Bobby]

I'm about to start the second book, and going by the last one there is a chance I'll end up finishing it very soon. If I happen to take it slower I'll post my thoughts as I go. Otherwise, I will just post my final thoughts when I'm done.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Bobby wrote: "I'm about to start the second book, and going by the last one there is a chance I'll end up finishing it very soon. If I happen to take it slower I'll post my thoughts as I go. Otherwise, I will ju..."

Excellent!! If you could give a non-spoilery rundown, too so those of us trying to decide how quickly we should get to book 2 can get a feel for it, I'd appreciate it!

[Bobby]

I'm 94 pages into the second book, and I'm enjoying it just as much as the first one. It's got about the same mix of Danny's personal story and Dreadnought's super hero story, but just farther along in both. I'm about 1/3 of the way through, and I'm liking how the events of the previous book have shaped what is currently happening. I don't know if it's just me but I've noticed more world building in this one so far.

I want to add something in tags but I don't remember specific chapters, so I'll just say spoilers are up to page 94 of the paperback version of Sovereign. (view spoiler)[Something I like about this book that was hinted at in the previous one is how different Danny and her Dreadnought persona are. Before she was just learning how to be a superhero, but now she's fought many times and is confident she will win. She talks about actually enjoying battle in life threatening situations, but when she's Danny, she seems to still be the shy 15 year old girl. I'm interested to see how that develops (hide spoiler)]

[Jordan]

Okay, I'm just starting this because I got flooded with library books all at once. I'm on chapter three right now. So far the book has been very... whiny. But I think part of that is just the narrator and the tone of voice she's choosing to use. I'm hoping when things pick up that will lessen some.

[Gabi]

@Jordan: I had a tough time with the narrator as well. On 1.5 x speed it got better.

[Jordan]

Gabi wrote: "@Jordan: I had a tough time with the narrator as well. On 1.5 x speed it got better."

I'll definitely give that a try. I've got it on 1.25x right now, which is kind of my default listening speed. If nothing else speeding it up will make the whining bits be done quicker.

[Bobby]

Just wanted to give a quick update on book 2.

Unlike the first one, I didn't devour Sovereign in 2 days, but that's completely because of how busy I am, combined with the buddy read of another book taking precedence. I'm about 70% through, and I've only picked it up twice, so the pace and story is just as good for me as the first book, but life got in the way.

I think the overall plot in this one is stronger. The first one was more about the coming of age story, and this one is more about the reality of being a superhero. Of course there are still issues Danny is dealing with because she's transgender.

I read an interview with the author and thought it mentioned some things we talked about here, so I thought I'd post it. Interview

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Thanks, Bobby!!

[Jordan]

Okay, I've officially returned the audio because that narrator is wrecking this book. Her voice for Danny is so whiney and she has the weirdest accents going on for other people. I can't take it anymore. If I continue this book, it will be in print.

[Jordan]

Alright, I'm about a quarter of the way through now, having switched to audiobook. Much better now that there's no terrible narration, but I'm still not sure I'm enjoying this as much as I thought I would. The characters are just really falling flat so far. Everyone who's been transphobic to Danny just seems like a giant caricature and her Dad is the same with his toxic masculinity crap. Spoilers just in case, but fairly general: (view spoiler)[ Like her best friend who at lunch with her spouts out every cliche about women right in a row: being emotional, overly sensitive, that time of the month, etc. Also felt kind of weird when Danny talked about how much more emotional she was after her transformation, especially right after her friends' comments. I don't know, that whole exchange just felt super-awkward to me. Same thing with the legion when they started squabbling over Danny. (hide spoiler)]

[Gabi]

Jordan wrote: "Okay, I've officially returned the audio because that narrator is wrecking this book. Her voice for Danny is so whiney and she has the weirdest accents going on for other people. I can't take it an..."

Feel you! Couldn't stand the narration as well - perhaps this was the reason why I felt no connection whatsoever with the story.

[Jordan]

Oh, also the fact that basically immediately after her transformation she suddenly is worried about eating a salad instead of two slices of pizza. That also came off weird and awkward to me.

[Kristin B.]

I am on a roll with necroposting on buddy reads the last few weeks. :)

Just finished this last night and it was very meh for me. I also felt like the characters were fairly flat. They were each the stereotype of the type of person they were being used to portray.

(view spoiler)[Greywytch's attitude is obviously awful. But was she abused at some point to make her feel that way about men? Is she really just a gross person? Give me some background.

The first third of the book felt super self-indulgent. I definitely want a trans story written by a trans author. But this didn't just start the discussion. It beat you over the head with it. For the first third of the book I think Danny shouted in her internal dialogue some variation of "I'm a girl!" about ten times per page. Which, I get it. She's a teenager. She's been uncomfortable in her own skin her whole life. Her parents aren't supportive (Are in fact downright terrible.) So I definitely understand that she would be thinking about it constantly, but I think there is a way to convey that in a story that isn't just repeatedly stating it over and over. I have no problem with the message that was being conveyed, just the choice of story telling style.

Doc Impossible is my favorite! I love that she ended up being an android. I love that she had the crisis of "am I really me?" I adore that she was a conduit for the villain, but she herself is definitely good. I loved her comment about addiction.ini and giving herself a nicotine addiction because it felt like it would make her more human. I want all the fluffy android feelings! (I've been in a mood where I just want to see sweet AI stories. So much AI is "oh no they want to murder us all.") Totally would love some suggestions of warm and fluffy AI/Android stories if anyone has them. (hide spoiler)]

Overall I'm glad I read it because I want there to be SO MANY MORE inclusive stories on the market. But it wasn't a super great read for me.

[Ariana]

Kristin B. wrote: "Totally would love some suggestions of warm and fluffy AI/Android stories if anyone has them."

OMG, Kristin, if this is your cup of tea, you have to read Murderbot, STAT.
All Systems Red isn't on your shelves, so maybe you still have it (and its 3 sequels) to look forward to? If so, I'm jealous.

(I loved Doc Impossible, too! I'm hoping we see more of her in the next one, Sovereign, I'm thinking of starting that whenever I can climb out from underneath my giant pile of buddy reads I'm behind on.)

[Kristin B.]

Ariana wrote: "OMG, Kristin, if this is your cup of tea, you have to read Murderbot, STAT.
All Systems Red isn't on your shelves, so maybe you still have it (and its 3 sequels) to look forward to? If so, I'm jealous. "

It is on my To Read list now! Thank you!

[Kristin B.]

"Ariana wrote: "OMG, Kristin, if this is your cup of tea, you have to read Murderbot, STAT.
All Systems Red isn't on your shelves, so maybe you still have it (and its 3 sequels) to look forward to?..."

I had to pop back into this thread and quickly thank Ariana for this rec! I am on the third book and I love them so much!!!

Thank you, Ariana!!!

(I am now done derailing the Dreadnought thread) ;)

[Ariana]

Kristin B. wrote: "Thank you, Ariana!!!"

You're very welcome! So glad you enjoyed them. Happy to spread the good word of Murderbot.