Space Opera Fans discussion
This topic is about
The Forever War
BOTM READER
>
Oct 2018 READER Pick: Forever War by Haldeman
date
newest »
newest »
This novel, more than just about any other, exemplifies how SciFi can be used to talk about the complex issue of war. Combat, however, isn't the focus of the novel. It's what happens to the soldier who returns from combat, the changes in society while they are gone, and the change in themselves.I first read this novel when I came back from my first deployment. I had struggled with finding a way to articulate exactly how it felt to come home, to relearn how to integrate, and how to connect with those closest to me. Haldeman's use of relativistic physics exaggerates these effects using relativistic physics. Each time Mandella comes home, he effectively has to start his life over before leaving again because so much time has passed for those left behind while he expects to return home to something familiar.
You can't pick up where you left off after going to war, and no novel of any gene describes that impact better than this one.
Mod
You know that part where Mandella’s mom is downgraded to “not viable” so she doesn’t get any health care? That was actually proposed in the mid-90s as part of American health care reform.I was stunned. I mean, of all the innovations to take from SF in general and Forever War in particular, *that’s* the one they chose. 😯
Trike wrote: "You know that part where Mandella’s mom is downgraded to “not viable” so she doesn’t get any health care? That was actually proposed in the mid-90s as part of American health care reform.I was st..."
It was very much a 'slap in the face' part of the book. I'm in a country with universal health care, and although our system isn't perfect, I still struggle to understand some of the US attitudes to health care - and I can't imagine how that would be 'reform.'
I read Forever War decades ago and loved it. Can anyone recommend similar books?
Mod
Well there are two sequels: Forever Peace and Forever Free
I read those and was hoping for books by different authors.Thanks!
Ulysese wrote: "I read Forever War decades ago and loved it. Can anyone recommend similar books?"I think that both Old Man's War and Sten will fill the bill. There’s a scene in Sten about combat suits that feels like it could be right out of Forever War.
If you like those books, they each have numerous sequels.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_M...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_S...
Thanks for recommendations.
This book was not easy for me to get in to, but I ended up enjoying it in the end. I wish I'd read it after Starship Troopers and before Old Man's War. That would have been a nice progression of similar concepts.
Ulysese wrote: "I read Forever War decades ago and loved it. Can anyone recommend similar books?"also the Vorkosigan saga, especially the first 5 books, by Bujold
How’s the politics in The Vorkosigan saga?
I started it yesterday and the way he talks about sexual expectations when it comes to the female soldiers is really creeping me out.
Bookish wrote: "I started it yesterday and the way he talks about sexual expectations when it comes to the female soldiers is really creeping me out."It should creep you out; it's creepy. The story takes every opportunity to show a military that thrives on a culture of dehumanization. When you hit chapter 10, be ready to throw your book across the room. Then pick it up and continue reading, if you still can.
Yep.Gotta get through the tunnel to emerge in the light.
Daniel wrote: "It should creep you out; it's creepy. The story takes every opportunity to show a military that thrives on a culture of dehumanization."Well gee ... thanks?? I can now rest assured that I really should be feeling creeped out because as you so obviously parroted my earlier comment - its creepy. Patronizing much ...
Apologies if my comment came off as patronizing in any way. I was saying that I understood the creepiness that you felt because I felt is also, especially in chapter 10.I hope that states my comment more clearly. Again, apologies.
Mod
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
For anybody skimming this thread, the creepy comments are NOT referring to Startide Rising.
Daniel wrote: "Apologies if my comment came off as patronizing in any way. I was saying that I understood the creepiness that you felt because I felt is also, especially in chapter 10.I hope that states my comment more clearly. Again, apologies."
It has clarified your comment, and thank you for that, its much appreciated. Really glad to know it was unintentional.
That part you mentioned in Ch 10 was pretty awful. I got past it after a bit of a breather, and am about halfway through now.
Bookish wrote: "Well gee ... thanks?? I can now rest assured that I really should be feeling creeped out because as you so obviously parroted my earlier comment - its creepy. Patronizing much ..."It’s interesting to see how the language is shifting in real time because of the cultural changes happening, echoing what we see in the book.
I feel confident in saying that the intent of Daniel’s statement was innocuous, but the “men give permission to the women” subtext is built into the phrasing. Not because of the words themselves but rather because of the condescending way that sort of phrasing has been employed for generations.
It becomes an unconscious way of saying things that is freighted with meaning which most white men are completely unaware of. Because the entire planet is currently engaged in a pitched battle between extremist conservative views who would love to see The Handmaid's Tale come to life and rational progressive beliefs that everyone deserves a voice, it has sensitized both sides, causing triggers to be inadvertently tripped constantly.
Which is pretty much what we see in The Forever War. Because of Mandella’s skipping through time due to relativity, he gets snapshots of culture as it changes. He is often left bewildered by those changes and frequently commits a faux pas.
This is one of the books I credit for getting me into scifi in the first place. I read it in my teens, and have done a few times since. It's been a few years so I'm looking forward to seeing how it stacks up.I understand Haldeman wrote this partly in response to Heinlein's Starship Troopers and the way that glorifies military service, so at odds with his own Vietnam experience.
I also recommend Haldeman's Vietnam war novel 1968. I've never been able to get hold of his earlier book War Year.
Paul wrote: "also recommend Haldeman's Vietnam war novel 1968. I've never been able to get hold of his earlier book War Year."There are a number to chose from at abebooks.com. Looks like shipping to the UK is about US$7.
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sear...
Trike wrote: "There are a number to chose from at abebooks.com. Looks like shipping to the UK is about US$7.."Thanks, Trike; I've not looked for it in some time, when last I did it was a bit more pricey
Trike wrote: "It’s interesting to see how the language is shifting in real time because of the cultural changes happening, echoing what we see in the book. I feel confident in saying that the intent of Daniel’s statement was innocuous, but the “men give permission to the women” subtext is built into the phrasing. Not because of the words themselves but rather because of the condescending way that sort of phrasing has been employed for generations.
It becomes an unconscious way of saying things that is freighted with meaning which most white men are completely unaware of. Because the entire planet is currently engaged in a pitched battle between extremist conservative views who would love to see The Handmaid's Tale come to life and rational progressive beliefs that everyone deserves a voice, it has sensitized both sides, causing triggers to be inadvertently tripped constantly.
Which is pretty much what we see in The Forever War. Because of Mandella’s skipping through time due to relativity, he gets snapshots of culture as it changes. "
I get what you're saying. I've encountered a spectrum of sentiment behind this sort of thing, from the unintended to the downright nasty.
I finished it last night and here's my review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
I mention some of what you're talking about which in the novel impressed me as well. How the author uses these points of difference or friction like language and sexuality to show that culture and society are fluid. There's so much going on here. I'm not sure how justified I am in wanting a more in-depth picture of the Taurans but the lack of it did detract from the experience as a reader. And it took until the third part for me to really get a sense of William the person.
Paul wrote: "This is one of the books I credit for getting me into scifi in the first place. I read it in my teens, and have done a few times since. It's been a few years so I'm looking forward to seeing how it..."This is my first novel by the author but I'm definitely interested in reading more. I ordered the 2 other books in the Forever series though as I understand it only the third is a true sequel. Thanks for bringing those up, more to check out! That's always good.
I haven't read Starship Troopers either but its on the list.
The more I think about the novel the more I wonder why Haldeman would have his female soldiers be subject to that very specific sexual treatment when serving. It doesn't quite do anything for the plot or world-building because they otherwise seem to serve right beside the men in all situations. If he wants to subject his characters to sexual dehumanization then why just his female characters, why not the men too. I can appreciate his attempt at showing us the fluidity of cultural norms in playing with the acceptance of heterosexuality and then homosexuality but the other thing just seems pervy to me.
Any thoughts?
I'm reading The Stars My Destination now and in this one a technological discovery (as it were) sets the women back centuries in terms of agency. I do wonder why sf authors can't be a bit more creative in their subjection and denigration when it comes to gender.
I don’t recall the women being used as sex toys. There was a section which was commentary on the natural progression of the hippies’ “free love” movement where the soldiers were assigned bunkmates as part of morale. Mandella is tired but his assigned sleeping partner that night isn’t and he says something like, “Why is it you always get the tired ones when you’re ready, but you always get the randy ones when you’re tired?” She is clearly the initiator in that instance.But the overall point of that stuff was how the army in particular and society in general takes something that arises naturally and co-opts it. Kinda like when you see rap music in shampoo commercials and such.
I'm not convinced that its a natural progression of the counter-culture happening at the time especially when I take into account the way its implemented as a system and for instance ch.10. It goes against the whole free love ethos. So the army co-opts this but it is still done at the expense of the women when the free love movement was supposed to allow women greater agency over their bodies and sexuality. You know, I did wonder during that episode you mentioned if he said no. I got the impression he knew he had a choice though which wasn't something I got when the narrator would talk about this especially when pertaining to the women as in ch.10.
Yeah, exactly — going against the free love ethos is what Haldeman is talking about. They take the thing that has arisen as a form of revolution or protest and use it in service of the state. He shows that happening again and again throughout the book.For instance, when the army decides to force soldiers to respond to officers with “Fuck you, sir!” as a way to improve morale, but it’s just stupid and destroys a release valve. It’s like grandpa trying to be all cool and street.
The sex thing doesn’t exploit the women any more than it does the men; it’s just this fun activity that the army has ruined by making it mandatory.
I suppose a less-socially-charged analog would be to force soldiers to play Candy Crush for 45 minutes every night. The army is like, “Hey, some of them like playing this game to unwind and it helps them get to sleep, so let’s require all of them to do it.”
There aren’t any consequences to the sex, and the reaction to “regulation intimacy” is as varied among the men as it is the women. Later on it goes the other way when the government forces everyone to be homosexual as a means of birth control: it’s yet another dunderheaded example of the state approving a solution to a problem the wrong way.
So if I'm reading you right, the army doesn't intend to exploit its women or men and sees it as sex without consequences. And that any actual consequences are "another dunderheaded example of the state approving a solution to a problem the wrong way". Its a wonder that they don't see it as having any actual consequences. Or maybe its just the nature of a cold-blooded and/or socially inept bureaucracy..
Oh, the army is *totally* exploiting both men and women intentionally. I just mean they aren’t discriminating when they do it. Make, female, young, old, race, color, creed, and sexual orientation mean nothing to the state, so long as they have pawns to move around the board to feed the Military-Industrial Complex.Forever War is part of that pantheon of books which expose the cruel absurdity of war and governments, like Catch-22, 1984 and Slaughterhouse-Five.
Mod
Betsy wrote: "The more you guys discusss this book, the less I want to read it. It sounds really unpleasant."It’s not grimdark or anything, but it is rough going in some places. That said, it does have funny parts and the ending is hopeful. But as I said earlier, you have to go through the tunnel before emerging into the light.
Betsy wrote: "The more you guys discusss this book, the less I want to read it. It sounds really unpleasant."I had a couple of moments of feeling quite repulsed and this was all due to the incidences Trike and I were talking about (the ambiguity around choice, at least for me). The way it was written into the story though makes for some interesting questions and I've enjoyed the discussion.
Trike wrote: "Oh, the army is *totally* exploiting both men and women intentionally. I just mean they aren’t discriminating when they do it. Make, female, young, old, race, color, creed, and sexual orientation m..."Ok, I see what you're saying now!
Slaughterhouse-Five was a much better novel and what Vonnegut was doing was a lot easier to grasp. This isn't sf but you mentioning this one also brought to mind All Quiet on the Western Front in terms of the absolute waste.
I haven't read the other two yet but I've seen the films.
I’ve long maintained that all the best war stories are actually anti-war stories.
Trike wrote: "I’ve long maintained that all the best war stories are actually anti-war stories."Yes I'd agree.
Banging the war drum and trying to sound sincere about the cost of war is tricky ...
I had a look at your shelves to see if you'd read The Stars My Destination and you have. It started off good but I'm not enjoying it now (halfway through).
I didn’t care for that one either.
The Forever War and Starship Troopers felt like two sides of the same coin. I'm not quite finish with The Forever War, but I've enjoyed both books. I see so many similarities between Mandella and Rico with my own deployment experiences. Starship Troopers is on the West Point reading list. I'm not sure if The Forever War is, too, but it should be. As many have already pointed out, the civilian scenes are far more fun than the limited combat. War is 95% boredom and 5% terror.
Phillip wrote: "The Forever War and Starship Troopers felt like two sides of the same coin. I'm not quite finish with The Forever War, but I've enjoyed both books. I see so many similarities between Mandella and R..."Phillip, would you mind sharing what other texts are on the West Point reading list? What class is the list meant to serve?
Bookish wrote: "Phillip wrote: "The Forever War and Starship Troopers felt like two sides of the same coin. I'm not quite finish with The Forever War, but I've enjoyed both books. I see so many similarities betwee..."For the record, I never went to West Point. I was commissioned through OCS. I tried to look up a list, but didn't find one that still had Starship Troopers, perhaps it was removed. Most books on the list are non-fiction (Art of War, On War, etc.) but their are also classical stories (e.g. Once and Eagle, and The Illiad).
Sorry I couldn't help more.
I just finished The Forever War. I read for enjoyment, rarely do I say a book "spoke to me," but this one did. The way Mandella behaved when among civilians on Earth that were centuries younger than him was clearly culture shock. I've deployed three times. I understand how things can seem different, but what really spoke to me was his connection to his original teammates, especially Marygay. I recently earned my MBA. I couldn't wait to get back to army. Despite having citizens from two dozen countries in my class, the soldier/civilian dynamics provided the most culture shock. When I read about Mandella and how he could never catch up to how society changed without him, I kept saying "exactly." It was an amazing book. I can't wait to read the sequel.
Best book Haldeman has written. It's based a lot on his own Vietnam experiences, even down to the war being fought on spurious grounds. I didn't quite buy into the future developments in society - the sequences on Earth don't match up to the war episodes - but Mandella's reactions to them are pretty convincing. What does come across is the military hierarchy's indifference to the fate of the rank and file soldiers they command and whose well being is completely ignored (e.g. the brainwashing early on, but mostly separating Mandella and Marygay simply because of the shortage of officers with combat experience). Superbly described action sequences, especially given that Mandella is anything but a gung-ho hero. As for the sequels, I have to say they disappointed me. I think Haldeman said what he wanted to say in this book and the sequels were more designed to let readers know what happened to the characters rather than anything else.
I agree that the sequels are not up to this one. I’m having a hard time even remembering anything concrete about them, in fact.
Phillip wrote: "For the record, I never went to West Point. I was commissioned through OCS. I tried to look up a list, but didn't find one that still had Starship Troopers, perhaps it was removed. Most books on the list are non-fiction (Art of War, On War, etc.) but their are also classical stories (e.g. Once and Eagle, and The Illiad).Sorry I couldn't help more. ."
No worries, I was just curious as to what that sort of place would consider essential reading from a literature standpoint. Thanks for looking!
Just finished The Forever War having been inspired to move it up my “Want to read” list based on seeing it as the BOTM. This might be a strange comment but I found it very “American”! What I mean by that – and bear in mind I’m a Brit who has read this in the middle of a run through all the Culture novels so have a certain style in my recent reading memory – I felt I was reading a book version of all the big Hollywood War Movies, from Saving Private Ryan via The Thin Red Line to Platoon etc. I can categorically say that is not a bad thing, these are fine works and I enjoyed this book in a similar way. The politics, the gender role chemistry, the humour generally felt set in a similar cultural tradition and ethos to the traditional 20th Century US approach to the “War” topic in film. That balance of reluctant participation overwritten by a determination to win with an undercurrent of discomfort at non-traditional lifestyle simmers throughout. I felt could have been lengthened to include more of the politics as a result. With regard to the Sci-Fi aspects, of course some parts of the technology prediction - or lack there of - have not aged well but pretty much all great Sci-Fi has that affliction and it doesn’t detract from a great story. Well worth the read.
Space Opera Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
The Stars My Destination (other topics)All Quiet on the Western Front (other topics)
Catch-22 (other topics)
Slaughterhouse-Five (other topics)
1984 (other topics)
More...
Official description:
The Earth's leaders have drawn a line in the interstellar sand—despite the fact that the fierce alien enemy that they would oppose is inscrutable, unconquerable, and very far away. A reluctant conscript drafted into an elite Military unit, Private William Mandella has been propelled through space and time to fight in the distant thousand-year conflict; to perform his duties without rancor and even rise up through military ranks. Pvt. Mandella is willing to do whatever it takes to survive the ordeal and return home. But "home" may be even more terrifying than battle, because, thanks to the time dilation caused by space travel, Mandella is aging months while the Earth he left behind is aging centuries.