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It Doesn't Work Like That - Books That Get it Wrong
I took a quick tour around my neighborhood yesterday afternoon looking at everyone’s doors. We have houses which were built in the 1760s, the mid-1800s, 1920s, 1980s and early 2000s. Horace Greeley’s childhood home (and birthplace) is down the street from where I live. (Greeley was the newspaper guy and politician who wrote the famous line, “Go west, young man.”) Here’s a photo of his house: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horac...Anyway... older homes that haven’t been completely refurbished have doors which open outward, with hinges on the outside. All of these houses also have regular inward-opening interior doors added at some point, effectively turning the original doors into shutters. It’s not very useful, but it does preserve the look of houses which are a couple hundred years old.
All of the 1900-1920s era homes have normal inward-opening doors, but none of them look original to the house. That said, the framing of the doorway indicates they have always been that way.
Around here a lot of the older houses have barns attached directly to the house, built that way because New England winters can be brutal with lots of snow. Global warming is drastically shortening the length of the winter months, but we still get between 5 and 7 feet of snow each winter. (Which I happen to love, as testified by my insta.) Said barns usually have sliding doors all around, including the one attached to Greeley’s house.
This house built in 1774 is down the street about a mile or so from Greeley, and you can see what I’m talking about. The doors open outward and have exterior hinges. Even the back door has this, but at some point another modern inward interior door was added.
It's more secure to have doors that open inwards, from the outdoors. Because then the hinges are on the inside. Otherwise you can just knock the pins out of the hinges and lift the door away.
Our outward opening exterior doors have the hinges inside.
Anyway.Another 'thing got wrong' that I've heard about several times is authors who have a disabled character and do insufficient research what it would be like to live with that particular challenge. Planetfall got it right, but I've heard frustration in particular from people who are blind and deaf.
What do you know about that?
Allison wrote: "For me, I'm almost always disappointed when either a lawyer or a Quebecois person shows up. I honestly stay up at night wondering how many people are in jail because of bad advice pop culture has g..."I know what you mean, and in particular, have you ever seen the movie 'Allied', with Brad Pitt and Marion Cotillard?
It's really not a great movie overall, but in particular, Pitt's character plays a spy who needs to speak french. Cotillard's character is, of course, actually french.
Cotillard asks Pitt to say a few lines in french so she can judge if he is any good. Pitt lets loose a little butchered french, basically with a think American-trying-to-speak-french accent (no offense to anyone, nothing to be ashamed of)
Cotillard goes 'Oh, not bad, but your accent is Quebecois'. And she proceeds to nickname him "mon quebecois" throughout the rest of the movie.
Not a single soul would EVER think he has a Quebecois accent... Not a French person, not a Quebecois, nobody.
It was basically the worse such offense I have ever seen.
Mod
I'm sorry. That's devastating! Not least because I bet actually Brad Pitt could learn a decent quebecois accent (given his past performances) and then we could have had all sorts of brilliant jokes about French vs. Quebecois. Also then poor Cotillard wouldn't have had to stand there acting her heart out to get through a lie.
A shame for cinema and us all!
My sister (cousin) is totally blind - we grew up together. I actively avoid books with blind characters due to RAGE. Most books either make blind people magic and/or they make them into children. There's no middle ground.
Cheryl wrote: "Another 'thing got wrong' that I've heard about several times is authors who have a disabled characterWhat do you know about that? "
Not exactly about disability per se, but in movie Un long dimanche de fiançailles based on the book the main heroine uses a folding lightweight wheelchair which weren't made in her time period (WWI).
Brenda wrote: "It's more secure to have doors that open inwards, from the outdoors. Because then the hinges are on the inside. Otherwise you can just knock the pins out of the hinges and lift the door away."But on the other hand it's much easier to break in a door that opens inwards that outwards.
I was just reminded of one that annoyed the crap out of me.In Children of Time, (view spoiler)
But that's not necessarily how it would work at all. The Prisoner's Dilemma applies only when the sides can't communicate. When there's a possibility of communicating, or when there's a possibility of backing off from the decision or of having subsequent interactions, then the Prisoner's Dilemma doesn't necessarily apply. (view spoiler)
That was a good book, though. I should read it again.
Olivier wrote: "Allison wrote: "For me, I'm almost always disappointed when either a lawyer or a Quebecois person shows up. I honestly stay up at night wondering how many people are in jail because of bad advice p..."The Quebecois do NOT sound like Americans butchering French!
But this leads me to why I couldn't listen to the audiobook of Burial Rites. For one thing, I have heard Icelanders speaking English and the narrator just sounded British. Secondly, even though I can't speak it, I have heard enough Icelandic to hear her accent when she spoke Icelandic names even though she didn't totally butcher them.
I also have a problem with casting people of the wrong look to play ethnic parts, etc. eg a Japanese or American Japanese actor being cast to portray a Korean. Then there is the sitcom Fresh Off the Boat where one family is acted by actors descended from several countries--it's just weird. I'm not even of Asian descent, but spent enough years in BC & California to be able to spot the differences (both Vancouver & San Francisco which used to have the two largest Chinatowns in North America in the order I wrote them, plus many other east Asians.
And then there are people from England narrating as Aussie or Kiwi protatonists and it's just WRONG, or Americans trying to sound Canadian, etc.
But, if it's a first person narrative and someone is saying what someone from a different country said, I am more forgiving--eg Jayne Entwistle narrating Flavia de Leuce--she does a great job with Flavia, but she can't do a proper Canadian or Australian accent, and she has imitated both, BUT I figure Flavia wouldn't be able to, either, and it's first person narrative.
Cheryl wrote: "Anyway.Another 'thing got wrong' that I've heard about several times is authors who have a disabled character and do insufficient research what it would be like to live with that particular chall..."
Yes, so true! One of the reasons the TV show Speechless is so great is that the producers and directors will correct things when the actor, who actually is disabled points out errors or what things are really like.
You cannot know what it's like by trying it out for a few days, either. Not really, although it can help to a point at times.
I also try to avoid books with characters with Asperger's, etc, as they are so hopelessly frustrating since not only are those umbrella diagnoses, but people with Asperger's are so varied it's amazing, yet it's so stereotyped. I have a couple of cousins and a child with Asperger's and I wouldn't write a protagonist with Asperger's because I don't have it.
Allison wrote: "*table flip*I'm sorry. That's devastating! Not least because I bet actually Brad Pitt could learn a decent quebecois accent (given his past performances) and then we could have had all sorts of b..."
Ah, a friend of mine, Quebecois, discussed about how it was only the Parisians who were rude about his accent. There are variations in accents throughout France, by the way.
Mod
I'm sorry. That's devastating! Not least because I bet actually Brad Pitt could learn a decent quebecois accent (given his past performances) and then we could have ha..."
...are you telling me about how one of my languages changes region to region or just sharing a fact you found interesting?
It's pretty funny, actually. I speak Parisian French, too. But in mixed groups of French and Quebecois, we all speak English as the shared language ^^ The French hardly ever understand Quebecois. But the Quebecois never have any problem. Poor Parisians always get such a bad rap for rudeness.
Karin wrote: "Ah, a friend of mine, Quebecois, discussed about how it was only the Parisians who were rude about his accent. There are variations in accents throughout France, by the way."the French down near Nice have a decidedly Italian flavor to their accent. What about Meryl Streep, the queen of accents?
Also, I get a kick out of the TV shows/moves on TV5Monde made in Canada (I'm guessing) that are subtitled in French
Hey, we are not named 'Los Tabarnakos' for nothing down in Mexico! Every time I visited Paris in the past and went to a café or pub, people smiled on hearing me speak. That thing about Québec-made TV shows needing subtitles in French for Parisians to understand them is no joke, but I suspect that lots of it is due to some snobbish attitude by many Parisians who think of us as 'provincials' and make a point of pretending not to understand us. How hard is it to understand 'un coke', versus the accepted Parisian variant of 'un coca'? Really different, isn't it? Yet, a friend of mine tried for a good minute to make a waiter understand him.
OMG Queen Meryl...a dingo took my baby. Honestly no matter how much I love Meryl Streep she should not have played Lindy Chamberlain.
Michel wrote: "That thing about Québec-made TV shows needing subtitles in French for Parisians to understand them is no joke, but I suspect that lots of it is due to some snobbish attitude by many Parisians who think of us as 'provincials'"The French are famously snooty, but I can understand needing subtitles despite speaking the same language. Some dialects are just hard to parse. I’ve seen quite a few films based in Scotland which required subtitles, even though they were speaking English. A documentary shot in Appalachia needed subtitles for the rest of America. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are Spanish dialects which do the same.
Oprah had subtitles for an Australian woman who spoke with the most beautiful English you’ve ever heard once. I’ve seen subtitles for English, Australian and New Zealanders a number of times on other shows. The Oprah one surprised me the most though because the woman spoke the most perfect English I’ve ever heard in my life.
Mod
Jacqueline, that is weird! A few vocab words aside, Australian hasn't seemed to be harder to understand than RP English.
It was really weird Allison. Couldn’t believe it.
I had exactly the opposite response from the French. As long as I said "Bonjour Madame/Mademoiselle/Monsieur" when I entered a store/restaurant/bank/etc the people were usually quite happy to help me even with my poor French.I found it was usually the social rules and not following them that led to people being treated rudely. In the US, sales people/waitstaff/etc are considered to be there to serve you - in France, you are essentially entering their domain and you greet them, thank them, etc.
and you never, ever ask the chef/water/waitress to make changes/substitutions in your order because that is insulting them. In 5 years of living there, I only had a very small number of rude encounters and that was usually either because I was in a tourist area (they heard my accent and assumed I was a tourist also, but quickly thawed as I treated them with the proper politeness/deference) or I was with someone who didn't.
The worst case I saw was when i went out to eat with a bunch of fellow students of French and the Canadian in the group placed his order with lots of substitutions and stuff served on the side instead of on the item. By the end of the meal, when the rest of us were enjoying our desserts, he still hadn't received his main course and he never did. He was also extremely loud.
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CBRetriever wrote: "I had exactly the opposite response from the French. As long as I said "Bonjour Madame/Mademoiselle/Monsieur" when I entered a store/restaurant/bank/etc the people were usually quite happy to help ..."My next door neighbors in Cincinnati were from Paris, and one time the wife asked me if Americans were always so friendly. “You smile so much,” she said. That was something that I didn’t realize was even a thing. Maybe that’s what they didn’t like about Reiner. He’s so affable. Plus he’s German, so there’s that.
the French do have extremely bad memories of Germans and German interactions with their country. It cn be, in the older generations, as bad as US anti-muslim attitudes
Mod
I just read a scene with the classic "you need to know this, but I won't tell you for some totally real and not plot-creating reason" that is just...my absolute favorite thing to read. /sarcasm.
I don't know about you all, but I don't go around thinking to myself stuff about how I broke my wrist in 4th grade every second of the day, but I do feel pretty strongly about informing people of things that might kill me, like allergies, intense phobias and the like. This book has confused things a bit, methinks.
I am a teacher with a fairly extensive classroom library, so I read a lot of YA/MG/Juv books. Many of them are very good, enjoyable to adults as well as children. The ones that get it wrong for me are the ones where the children (usually teens) are in control and for some unexplained reason there aren't any more-qualified and level-headed adults around to solve the problems, so the teens are running around impulsively creating more problems. Two examples that come to mind right now are the Divergent series and the Stung series. Both were okay, but couldn't keep my interest. Definitely some eye-rolling moments.
colleen the convivial curmudgeon wrote: "Unrelated to women's bodies at all...Something I never noticed until someone else pointed it out to me is that horses rarely work the way they do in fantasy novels."
Horses are fairly delicate critters. I read an account about the Horses the German Army used during WWII and it was amazing how much care they had to be given.
Fantasy Novels and Western's generally get it wrong.
I am a huge fan of science fiction and it absolutely makes me cringe when I see people get things wrong when it comes to outer space. The most recent situation I could think of off the top of my head actually came from a film "The last Jedi." The first scene depicts bombers in space which have bay doors that open into outer space with no ray shields as used in the prequels to explain the transition from ship to space. In addition, the bombs relied on gravity to drop onto the dreadnought in outer space.
You can do better Disney. You have the money to hire real astronauts as consultants.
Jarod wrote: "I am a huge fan of science fiction and it absolutely makes me cringe when I see people get things wrong when it comes to outer space.
The most recent situation I could think of off the top of my ..."
I am with you on that, Jarod. I guess that Disney went for the maximum dramatic visual effect, rather than striving for realism. With some imagination and very few extra dollars, they could have done that scene in a much more realistic way. Space fighters doing tight turns in space also makes my blood boil.
The most recent situation I could think of off the top of my ..."
I am with you on that, Jarod. I guess that Disney went for the maximum dramatic visual effect, rather than striving for realism. With some imagination and very few extra dollars, they could have done that scene in a much more realistic way. Space fighters doing tight turns in space also makes my blood boil.
MrsJoseph wrote: "Allison wrote: "MrsJoseph wrote: "Allison wrote: "The book I'm reading now has a lot of things that are making me laugh.You can't shove someone's nose shards into their brain. Notably, there aren..."
Breaking no, a blow to the bottom moving upwards and inwards, yeah.
Very hard to hit it just right though. Easier to snap the neck.
Phillip wrote: "I’m an army bomb technician. There are countless military mistakes in all storytelling mediums but the one that really annoys me is standing on a landmine. If you step on a landmine and you hear a ..."LOL. Thanks for that.
Isn't the storm at the beginning of The Martian something that even Andy Weir acknowledged couldn't happen?
Phillip wrote: "Allison wrote: "Wait, I can't button mash and hack the CIA?"What if I do it while spouting off witty one-liners?"
That only works in Shadow Run, but you have to roll really well on the dice.
Michel wrote: "One of my pet peeves is about war stories written by authors who obviously know nothing about war, the military and weapons and go on describing some 'epic' battle that would never have happened in..."Meter thick Armor. I am not sure that even the Mouse had armor that thick. And I am pretty sure it couldn't swim anything.
Nothing like a little research to fix glaring errors.
Trike wrote: "Cheryl wrote: "Are doctors & medical treatments usually portrayed acceptably close to accurately?How about archaeologists? Politicians? Journalists?."
No, no, no, no, but also no."
Phillip wrote: "Michel wrote: "One of my pet peeves is about war stories written by authors who obviously know nothing about war, the military and weapons and go on describing some 'epic' battle that would never h..."
Now be fair. the Hunt for Red October got the Politician right.
'I'm a Politician, which means by definition I am a thief and a Liar. When I am not kissing babies I am stealing their Lollipops.' Can't get a much better description that that.
Trike wrote: "I read somewhere that >90% of shoulder gunshot wounds result in amputation. Even a glancing blow (aka “getting winged”) can kill you.There was always a joke about American soldiers getting shot i..."
Most of the wounds suffered in the Civil War were to the right arm.
Makes sense when you think about how they had to load those dang muskets.
Jarod wrote: "I am a huge fan of science fiction and it absolutely makes me cringe when I see people get things wrong when it comes to outer space. The most recent situation I could think of off the top of my head actually came from a film "The last Jedi." The first scene depicts bombers in space which have bay doors that open into outer space with no ray shields as used in the prequels to explain the transition from ship to space. In addition, the bombs relied on gravity to drop onto the dreadnought in outer space.
You can do better Disney. You have the money to hire real astronauts as consultants."
I’m calling a technical foul on this one.
First of all, Star Wars isn’t SF, it’s Fantasy. Secondly, never once has Star Wars ever obeyed natural laws of any kind, let alone physics. The very first film has sound in space and spaceships behaving exactly like airplanes. Given that 40-year-old precedent, the fact that the bombers in SW8 act like bombers is not a bug, it’s a feature.
I also saw people complaining about the ships slowing down when they ran out of fuel, saying that spaceships didn’t behave like that. Yes they do, in Star Wars at least, and we know this because we saw them do it.
Getting science wrong only bugs me when the book or movie has a reputation for being Hard Science Fiction. The Expanse does this, as does most of Niven’s stuff, and The Martian. Either you get the facts right or you don’t, and none of those do.
V.W. wrote: "It is really disappointing that even current day films and TV still rely on the "hit on the back of the head knock out", with the victim waking up after a nice nap apparently no worse for wear.I'..."
A corollary to that is the Breaking of Bottles in a bar fight. Generally speaking head would go first.
Allison wrote: "My "favorite" "you've just been shot, why are you doing things now" scene:The main character (who has a little magic, so we can assume that helps a bit) has just been shot twice I believe once in..."
Maybe it is a version of the Pain Sex Healing in the Iron Druid series?
Cheryl wrote: "Tomas wrote: "I just read this thread from zero to here at once, so a few comments of mine:To "monthly problem": in the series started by The Path of Flames, the issue is avoided ..."
Or they are older. Which would generally preclude action adventure.
Michel wrote: "I am with you on that, Jarod. I guess that Disney went for the maximum dramatic visual effect, rather than striving for realism. With some imagination and very few extra dollars, they could have done that scene in a much more realistic way. Space fighters doing tight turns in space also makes my blood boil. "LOL - then why on god’s green earth are you watching Star Wars movies?
I’ve got some bad news for you about Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, Guardians of the Galaxy, The Expanse, Babylon 5, Cowboy Bebop, Firefly, Red Dwarf, Killjoys, Orville....
Ada wrote: "The amount of times I saw or read characters who were speaking 'Dutch' when in fact it's German is astonishing to me."Pennsylvania Dutch maybe?
I know, Trike, none of them respected the laws of physics in space, which is why I wish so hard that someone will one day do it right for once. Will it happen? Probably not.
Thank God, at least Galaxy Quest gets it right!
Mod
You can't shove someone's nose shards into their brain. N..."
I mean, it's possible to bash someone's skull in bad enough that bone shards hit the brain there. But they won't be the cartilage from the nose region, and it won't be with a punch. Maybe a metal bat. And likely they'll have other life-threatening things happening at the time than death via shard.
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/a...
Allison wrote: "Oleksandr wrote: "Early marriages weren't ubiquitous but not very rare either. Recently I read some documents from 1929-1930 Soviet Ukraine and there is a bunch of bios, mainly male (it is from pol..."Of course the Nobility in many nations were not the same as the people. After all Marriage was not about love, but about politics and the deals that were made to secure dynasties.
Allison wrote: "Bringing it back to the humorous...Quicksand!
I was terrified of quicksand as a kid. Anyone else convinced they were going to get insta-sucked into the beach because of pop media? (or forests, f..."
ah no, from 6 to 9 I lived in Arizona and the in Iowa, not a lot of beaches around.
Bobby wrote: "I found one for my profession, which is rare in the SFF books I read. I'm a travel agent specializing in cruises. Very minor spoilers for Into the Drowning Deep in tags, but there w..."Older cruise ships perhaps? When Ocean travel was the only way to go to other countries?
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We have the same problem in Canada, but worse.