SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion
Members' Chat
>
It Doesn't Work Like That - Books That Get it Wrong
Allison wrote: "But the trope in fantasy is more often than not Danaerys and Drogo rather rather than ..."Let me get it straight: the problem is that no teenage grooms but a lot of teenage brides in fantasy? Or that teen marriages were not common in the actual Middle Ages?
One of my grandmas was married at 15 and the other at 28.The 15 year old had 12 pregnancies producing 9 children and the other thought she was going through early menopause at 35 but it turned out to be my mum.
Mod
Let me get it straight: the problem is that no teenage grooms but a lot of teenage brides..."
...both? It is that marriage before 18 became (globally) less common, that having a child at 14 wasn't "the same" as having a child at 25 now, and that in fantasy there are often huge age discrepancies that just, again, aren't the usual for the quasi-medieval time period of fantasy.
Garion and Cenedra! They were both teens or thereabout.
And wow! I'm a little surprised this is upsetting people. As usual, this is not a condemnation of individual practices, it is a request that we stop promoting something untrue as "the way it is" and think for a second about what we normalize.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_ex...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western...
Note: yes, that's a very regional view!
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/...
"One lifestyle change more than any other had the effect of altering a young woman’s identity. Marriage is usually described as the decisive rite of passage to adulthood for medieval women.(21 Philips 2003, 4)
Although the legal minimum age at marriage in medieval England was set at 12 years, in reality, marriage at such a young age was largely restricted to the nobility, with the average age at marriage in the general population estimated at 20–25 years (22 Bennett 1987, 71) and perhaps even later following the Black Death."
...
"The fact that many young medieval women would not have been fertile before their 20s may be one reason for the relatively late average age of marriage during this period (70 Gilchrist 2012, 42.)
It also suggests that marriage at the legal minimum age of 12 years would rarely have been fruitful, and any pregnancy that did ensue would have carried significant risks for the mother. "
Mod
Jacqueline wrote: "A lot of people are giving up the whole shaving thing anyway. A fair few celebs are leading the charge. If you looked at my legs lately you’d think I was one of them. Nooo....just really lazy. And ..."I've started shaving, like, every 2 weeks and, even then, with an electric razor. But I'm also lucky and have really fine hair, so it's not particularly noticeable.
(It's summer here, and I do wear shorter skirts.) ;)
Allison wrote: "But the trope in fantasy is more often than not Danaerys and Drogo rather rather than ... I'm drawing a blank, who's got a fantasy story where the man is a teen too? "Katherine Kurtz has done this in one (or more) of the Deryni novels. Most of the books primarily concern marriages of convenience among royalty, but there are numerous secondary characters whose lives are detailed.
Sometimes the marriages are love matches, but more often they are done for dynastic reasons. Kurtz also does the thing where two toddlers are betrothed by their parents in order to secure an alliance, so they grow up knowing they’re supposed to get married once they reach majority.
I think this is also the relationship between Inevera and Jardir in the Demon Cycle series by Peter V. Brett, but I don’t recall if they are specifically bound to each other as kids or if she just sets her sights on him because she’s the smartest and most capable (and most ruthless) person in the kingdom and she knows he’s going to be king.
CBRetriever wrote: "and it is legal in the US in two states to marry at 14 (Alaska and North Carolina) with parental consent. The US is backwards as far as age restrictions compared to Europe. See this page for US sta..."On that list CA has no age restrictions on marriage. Parental consent is pretty much a given in many cultures and that inevitably leads to the increase in sex trafficking that we are seeing in many places.
Allison wrote: "Although the legal minimum age at marriage in medieval England was set at 12 years, in reality, marriage at such a young age was largely restricted to the nobility, "And fantasy stories usually dis-proportionally deal with nobility, therefore a number of teen marriages can be justified. Let me be clear, I do not say that 13 year old brides are ok and the way to go, but that it happened and not on one or two exceptional occasions in Medieval Europe. Should fantasy novels adopt more modern attitude - I guess it is to authors to decide and for readers to vote with their money. I am for equality in real life but have no problem with inequality in fiction because this is fiction... and if it is based on traditional societies then it is most likely unequal
Mod
And fantasy s..."
It is true, marriage in noble houses is a bit different :) My focus is more on the rationalization of that (and extrapolation to other populations) rather than contesting it ever happened.
Jerry Lee Lewis = 22 and 3rd wife = 13 years old (some reports hold she was 15)
Problem with that article is that both the organic foods and homeopathy it derides for no reason have scientific studies to back them up (obviously only certain homeopathic remedies not all) and studies have been done using nutritional analysis (chemistry) which frequently show non gmo / organic having a better nutritional profile than similar toxic/gene-geneered foods.Wish things like this would check their facts cause it hurts their own cause.
Mod
Quicksand!
I was terrified of quicksand as a kid. Anyone else convinced they were going to get insta-sucked into the beach because of pop media? (or forests, fireswamps, cracks in sidewalks and any other sandy area?)
Allison wrote: "...I was terrified of quicksand as a kid. Anyone else convinced they were going to get insta-sucked into the beach because of pop media?..."
I didn't have a problem with quicksand until I watched "Invaders from Mars." The movie included many sequences of people getting sucked down into a sand pit by the invaders and having a mind control device implanted in the back of their neck. I was probably too young for that movie. It also cured me of sleeping on my stomach.
Rachel wrote: "Problem with that article is that both the organic foods and homeopathy it derides for no reason have scientific studies to back them up (obviously only certain homeopathic remedies not all) and st..."There are zero studies showing that homeopathy works. None. Every legitimate double-blind trial — every single one — has resulted in homeopathic cures being no better than placebo. It is completely without merit, just as the anti-vaxxer argument is completely without merit and faith healing is completely without merit. Sorry.
Not true - look up acupuncture- lumping that shit together with anti-vaxxers is bogus and meanAnd the same is true for majority of pharmaceuticals- no better than placebo in neutral studies.
Rachel wrote: "Not true - look up acupuncture- lumping that shit together with anti-vaxxers is bogus and meanAnd the same is true for majority of pharmaceuticals- no better than placebo in neutral studies."
Acupuncture isn't homeopathy though. Homeopathy is specifically "magic water that contains some kind of memory of something that was in it" (paraphrasing obviously). There is zero proof that it works.
I think you might be conflating naturopaths and homeopathy, somewhat understandably since many of the former promote the latter (in addition to promoting acupuncture and other remedies).
The pharmaceutical story isn't true either. There are definitely plenty of medicines that it is true for, but the majority are demonstrably and proven better than placebos. In most cases new drugs are only registerable if they're demonstrably better than those already on the market, either in efficacy or patient outcomes (fewer side effects).
Mod
Esther wrote: "One of my grandmas was married at 15 and the other at 28.The 15 year old had 12 pregnancies producing 9 children and the other thought she was going through early menopause at 35 but it turned out..."
Thanks to the phrasing I initially thought your grandmother got confused as to who was going through menopause - her or her daughter. :D
I wouldn't say this is something that is WRONG, exactly, but I've always wondered how the mere presence of magic can make all "technology" suddenly stop working. (Garth Nix's Abhorsen books were the first time I noticed this, I think.) Like, levers and pulleys are "technology" - what human tools count as too advanced to function in the magical universe? Leaving aside electronics, I think the most frequent victims I've seen are guns and clocks, both of which work based on pretty simple physics. Does magic change the chemical properties of the explosives used in the gun? Temporarily affect gravity around a pendulum clock? I don't mind if magic isn't 100% consistent, but I've never been able to make sense of this.
(If anyone can explain it in a way that's actually logical, I would be forever grateful, since it's bothered me for years.)
I like the methodology of Adrian Tchaikovsky's Shadows of the Apt series:"The series is set in a hypothetical universe populated by different "kinden". Each kinden is a fictional race of humans, named after (and having certain characteristics of) an insect. Kinden are typically divided into two categories: "Apt" and "Inapt". The Apt do not have magical abilities, but are able to understand, use and design mechanical devices. The Inapt have varying amounts of magical abilities, but cannot use mechanical devices, even those as simple as latches. "
it's simply that their brains can only comprehend either magic or mechanics/physics. I really like this series even though I have a bug phobia.
@CBRetriever: Oh, wow, logical coherence, I love it! Also, that description sounds awesome. I've never heard of the series before, but I'll have to try it!
Mod
Allison wrote: "Bringing it back to the humorous...Quicksand!
I was terrified of quicksand as a kid. Anyone else convinced they were going to get insta-sucked into the beach because of pop media? (or forests, f..."
For a long time I was terrified of muddy fields and the possibility of a quagmire.
I blame the the bog scene at the end of the BBC's adaptation of Lorna Dorne and a horrifying little film called Run Wild, Run Free that in the crazy days of 1970s England was considered suitable viewing for primary school children. I was so traumatised I was physically exhausted when it ended.
Mod
I was disappointed to learn - just last night - that the whole becoming immune to poison by ingesting small amounts of poison over time (Mithridatism) is largely bunk (except in limited cases of a biological agent which your immune system reacts to).
Donald wrote: "Esther wrote: "One of my grandmas was married at 15 and the other at 28.The 15 year old had 12 pregnancies producing 9 children and the other thought she was going through early menopause at 35 bu..."
LOL!
I found one for my profession, which is rare in the SFF books I read. I'm a travel agent specializing in cruises. Very minor spoilers for Into the Drowning Deep in tags, but there was one big thing about the ship that made me cringe and roll my eyes. (view spoiler)There was also a little thing I thought was weird, but I didn't know enough to say it wouldn't work like that. Basically the ship in that book has passenger cabins that open directly to the outside instead of in a hallway inside the ship. I've definitely never seen that on a cruise ship, but I don't know if that is something that happens on other types of ships like research vessels.
That would indeed be both unusual and very impractical: cabins opening directly on open decks would get flooded pretty quickly with washing waves and cold rain and wind. I wouldn't pay to travel in such a cabin! Even military ship designs have more common sense.
Mod
Exterior doors that open outward on residences.
It's code/standard procedure to have all exterior doors open in (hard to barricade a door that opens out) but I see this all the time on shows.
Michel wrote: "That would indeed be both unusual and very impractical: cabins opening directly on open decks would get flooded pretty quickly with washing waves and cold rain and wind. I wouldn't pay to travel in..."That's kind of what I was thinking. Not to mention trying to open the door during strong wind.
Bobby wrote: "I found one for my profession, which is rare in the SFF books I read. I'm a travel agent specializing in cruises. Very minor spoilers for Into the Drowning Deep in tags, but there w..."Interesting. I’ve never been on a cruise ship so I never thought about it like that.
Early marriage was common when life expectancy was low; men married young, not just women. There are many common misconceptions that child brides always had adult husbands, and while that certainly happened, it didn't always.
Allison wrote: "That is neat! I thought Old Kingdom worked because it corroded things made after the Wall went up. Clothes, paper... anything done in a process created after the Old Kingdom was separated and there..."Ahh, that would make more sense than how I was remembering it. I still have questions about the nit-picky details, but that at least gives it a overall logic for determining what still works.
Bobby wrote: "There was also a little thing I thought was weird, but I didn't know enough to say it wouldn't work like that. Basically the ship in that book has passenger cabins that open directly to the outside instead of in a hallway inside the ship. I've definitely never seen that on a cruise ship"Cruise ships have those. Most of the newer ones just have balconies, but slightly older models were often built similarly to motels, with cabins sharing a wall and the doors accessing an exterior walkway.
You can see a balcony in one of these photos:
https://www.cruisecritic.com/articles...
That railing looks to be about 4 feet tall, too, so I could imagine someone falling over it. Not easily, but doable.
Allison wrote: "That reminds me of a huge pet peeve (mostly in film).
Exterior doors that open outward on residences.
It's code/standard procedure to have all exterior doors open in (hard to barricade a door tha..."
My cousin’s apartment building had doors that open outward, to both the building and individual apartments. It was so odd that I remarked on it as we were helping her move out.
That door thing is weird. I can't remember ever seeing an outer door open inward here in Finland. Of course we have something that I think is only a Finnish custom, which is the inner outer door. So the apartment doorway has two doors, one opens outside and has the lock, the other open inside, and is just a regular room door. It's there to keep noisy neighbors from bothering you with their noisy noise. So naturally the outer door couldn't open inward. But even in houses/apartments that don't have the inner door, the main door still opens outward.
We have outer doors and inner doors except the outer one is usually a security door with fly screen and bars or steel mesh so you can leave the other door open for airflow and keep the flies, mozzies and robbers out. The outer one opens out and the other one opens in. The inner door usually has a proper lock on it too. And is usually decorative since you can see through the other one.
Trike wrote: "Bobby wrote: "There was also a little thing I thought was weird, but I didn't know enough to say it wouldn't work like that. Basically the ship in that book has passenger cabins that open directly ..."I definitely expect balconies on cruise ships, but I read this as the exterior door of the cabin. I may have read it wrong, but the scene was basically two people in their cabin with "the door" open to the outside to let in the sea air. I might not remember it exactly right, but that's when it took me out of the story and I was confused.
The railing thing though is a big misconception about cruise ships. There are always news stories of people "falling" from cruise ships, but it is very hard to do unless you are doing something stupid. My main point is that ships get water on their decks all the time. Since water is slippery, there's no way they would have railings short enough where people could just tip over the side from something as simple as a slippery deck.
Allison wrote: "Exterior doors that open outward on residences.It's code/standard procedure to have all exterior doors open in (hard to barricade a door that opens out) but I see this all the time on shows. "
I don't know about US code but I know for sure that in the USSR (and thus often in post-USSR country construction codes) door should open outward because in the case of fire panicking people can be usable to exit - they would press door outward, especially in a throng
Mod
We have "fire doors" in places that aren't residences, (or that house many, like apartment complexes. But that would be separate emergency exit(s), not all doors) which do open out for that reason. But residences...no. Our homes are considered castles. You can barricade the door against God and everyone and shoot 'em if they breach it.
I don't, you know, recommend that, largely, but it's the idea behind the practice.
Allison wrote: "Our homes are considered castles. You can barricade the door against God and everyone and shoot 'em if they breach it. "So is it the norm in a state-approved code or it is just what people used to do and "grandfathered-in" code? How many households have to barricade during average lifetime? Especially to barricade against armed assault? Just curious :)
Mod
So is it the norm in a state-approved code or it is just wh..."
Haha! I don't know how many have barricaded, but certainly fewer than think they'll have the need :-)
I can't speak for all 50 states...there are lots of states that really are just praying that their citizens won't get themselves killed too expensively. But I haven't seen any normal front or back doors that swing out in homes. I know where I was born and the state I live in now it's part of the rule. And if you wanted a door to swing out, you'd likely have to explicitly tell your contractor that, because code or no, it's the standard.
We have the inner door/outer door thing, with the outer door being what we always called the "storm door" and we actually have two - one with screens for the nicer weather, and one with insulated glass for the hotter/colder weather.The weird thing about the door in our neighborhood is that the storm door opens on the left, but the inner door opens on the right.
Growing up, both doors opened on the left, so it was a bit of an adjustment getting used to having the 2 door openings be on different sides.
It also makes it a bit harder to get stuff in and out of the door, and I think we actually had to remove the storm door entirely when we were moving in.
Mod
I have this too! I think the former owner of my house was left-handed, and really went out of his way to make everything he added left-hand accessible. Or maybe it's a fad of some bygone era?
Allison wrote: "Oleksandr wrote: "Allison wrote: "Our homes are considered castles. You can barricade the door against God and everyone and shoot 'em if they breach it. "So is it the norm in a state-approved cod..."
In fact, I think the door swing is a part of a lot of state code. Its code here.
And the "castle" idea is written into law.
Allison wrote: "It's code/standard procedure to have all exterior doors open in (hard to barricade a door that opens out) but I see this all the time on shows. "Actually residences are the exception to the code which in most cases states that doors should open outwards so people can easily get out in case of fires.
The National Fire Protection Association develops its own model code, which is designed to prevent loss of life and property due to fire. Like the IBC and IRC, NFPA code is not law in and of itself but is typically adapted into local ordinances. Exterior doors play an important role in NFPA code because they serve as a means of egress. According to NFPA, all exterior doors must swing out and must be equipped with a panic hardware device, such as a push bar, if occupancy exceeds 50 people.
Not to mention the ADA codes which require easy egress - opening a door inward while in a wheelchair is more difficult
Mod
Actually residences are the except..."
This would be why I specified, yeah! A restaurant opening out, whatever. My house though? I'd have that redone before I fell asleep!
I grew up on Air Force bases - it was a real pain, when we lived in Montana to have the door to our house open outward if there's been a heavy snow the night before... Since it was government housing, they followed the law that applies to government buildings
Allison wrote: "I have this too! I think the former owner of my house was left-handed, and really went out of his way to make everything he added left-hand accessible. Or maybe it's a fad of some bygone era? "I think for us it has to do with the size of the stoop. My parent's house, and thus their porch, is slightly larger, so they have more room to get in on the side nearest the railing, which is where their door opens.
But our house and stoop is smaller, and we wouldn't be able to fit between the door and the railing, and then the inside door would be opening the wrong way if it matched the outside door.
So it was left with a situation where the doors are just weird for all of the houses in our particular area.
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Ringworld (other topics)Bride of the Rat God (other topics)
Frontiers of Propulsion Science (other topics)
Making Starships and Stargates: The Science of Interstellar Transport and Absurdly Benign Wormholes (other topics)
The Girl Who Kicked the Hornet’s Nest (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
J.L. Doty (other topics)Dorothy Dunnett (other topics)
Katherine Kurtz (other topics)
C.S. Lewis (other topics)
J.R.R. Tolkien (other topics)
More...
This is still different than the 40 year old man and the 13 year old bride. Married at 20 suggests, likely, the wife is of similar age. And, of course, global averages are going to have local variations. But the trope in fantasy is more often than not Danaerys and Drogo rather rather than ... I'm drawing a blank, who's got a fantasy story where the man is a teen too?