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Thoughts on being a writer on Goodreads
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Nicely put Kira. Whether you're a reader or reader/writer you have to be a good citizen (sounds like your a teacher) that means contributing to read suggestions and discussions.
While there are a lot of things for a person to learn, I think that a lot of the missteps that happen here are done in willful ignorance.There are books to read that give tips. There are other authors and author groups. There ARE resources.
So - and this might just be residual anger left over from my experiences - IDK why readers here were forced into being SPA guinea pigs. The readers took most of the bumps and bruises with the major change to authors mainly that its a lot harder to mindlessly promote in well modded groups.
It truly was a terrible, terrible situation.
MrsJoseph wrote: "While there are a lot of things for a person to learn, I think that a lot of the missteps that happen here are done in willful ignorance.
There are books to read that give tips. There are other au..."
Okay, now can we get back at the subject of this thread, which is 'Thoughts on being a writer on Goodreads', and go past previous bad feelings? I am a self-published writer, but I don't promote anywhere but in the proper promotion threads. Simply saying that I am an author is not 'promoting' in my opinion: it is simply stating a fact, the same as someone on Goodreads saying 'I am a reader'. However, the tone and choice of words in some of the previous posts on this thread tended to lump all SPAs in the same nefarious/abusive group, and I felt that to be at times quite excessive in its vehemence. I like discussing on Goodreads and reviewing books, but I would like to feel to be more than just 'tolerated' because I am an author.
There are books to read that give tips. There are other au..."
Okay, now can we get back at the subject of this thread, which is 'Thoughts on being a writer on Goodreads', and go past previous bad feelings? I am a self-published writer, but I don't promote anywhere but in the proper promotion threads. Simply saying that I am an author is not 'promoting' in my opinion: it is simply stating a fact, the same as someone on Goodreads saying 'I am a reader'. However, the tone and choice of words in some of the previous posts on this thread tended to lump all SPAs in the same nefarious/abusive group, and I felt that to be at times quite excessive in its vehemence. I like discussing on Goodreads and reviewing books, but I would like to feel to be more than just 'tolerated' because I am an author.
Mod
I get the plight. Obviously. But I'd like everyone to notice how many times in discussion any other hobby or profession comes up. It is exceedingly rare. I read just about every single post in every single thread of our group, and I can't tell you much about what anyone here does outside of read books. What I do know comes out when valuable information that requires some background info to appreciate is shared. See the Calculating Stars read, where people are sharing things about their hometowns, their families or jobs because it ties in directly to the material, and needs qualification to be relevant. Being an author should follow the same rules, if it's just about what "we are."
Like Micah said, the assumption that all of us know who writes, and what writing consists of, removes the need to mention that we write more than 90% of the time. Just talk about the book and the mechanics, no need to couch. Bringing up that we've written books sounds either like a brag/boost or like we're trying to claim expertise, when, sorry, but almost everyone avid enough to join a book club can be said to have spent a lot of time learning about the art of books.
There are spaces on Goodreads meant for authors. This is meant for readers. Just like a physicist is welcome at a medical conference but shouldn't be surprised when the other attendees don't want to talk physics, authors shouldn't be surprised that our focus here is on the joy of reading. We're building a community around that, and folks who aren't here to discuss reading are pretty transparent. I do try to be lenient (for example, in the welcome thread) but at a certain point the best way to build community is to defend the community. We've found that by making it clear that authors will find a much more receptive audience if they're already known and respected in book conversations, the amount of energy spent policing has gone down drastically, and our participation has gone way up.
I am a reader. I am not an author.I wouldn’t mind if authors could choose to have a tagline, so , Goodreads Author where name currently comes up in comments.
The liability there is that whenever they said anything negative about a book (unless it were against a multitude of grammar / typos which I abhor and turns many of us off self published books), I’d think they were putting someone down to make themselves appear better. As with spam – there are some who’d try this ploy. I would respect those with the tag who pointed out things they like about others’ books.
The positive is that some may click on their name and in their profile see more about what they write. I notice some authors on this thread aren’t using that space as well as they could. Many of you haven’t written anything, a few way too much (you don’t have to list every book as they appear just below your blurb ). Once you have a following, I’m always hoping to see “I’m working on X due out in Y”. With writers I follow, that’s what I want to know.
I am happy folks can’t recommend themselves in threads asking for recommendations as, given how easy it is to publish on Kindle, there are people who simply cannot write publishing books. I believe many who cannot write well and publish aren’t aware of it. And, many would recommend their books even if it didn’t match the request. I am sorry for the good writers who’d be honest and diligent about it – but the internet abounds with spammers and we know they’d fill up those threads.
That said, as readers I’d like to think most want to see authors who can write succeed. It is difficult. I have read books that, for the genre, were better than many others yet they have only 6 reviews – so I’d guess from what I find about Kindle rates they may have only made $15 for the book. Having a great book isn’t enough – getting that first decent number push of reads and reviews is astronomically difficult. I appreciate that.
Publishing houses are steering authors based on what they believe people want and their cut offs for what they consider profitable (so one of my fave Urban Fantasy authors now has a commission for cozy mystery, Charlaine Harris has written her publisher doesn’t want anymore Midnight Texas books – although with >25,000 ratings on GR you’d think it’d be popular enough. Odd thing is Amazon is showing less than 2,000 ratings, but I digress). Point is, publishing houses by their very nature of being a business, have set thresholds so they can stay in business and succeed. Many excellent books will not meet the publisher’s current push. Those excellent books have trouble being found by the people who would enjoy them.
I don’t have all the answers. I do think the author tag could be a boon. Something like a quarterly (or annual or bi-annual) read of book by an author (who has been a participating member of that group for > 1 year) might be generous. Within that voting thread, authors could nominate their own book. Author’s who’ve been with the group a year would understand they’d be slammed if the book didn’t fit the group’s direction (so here, sci-fi / fantasy).
And, I’m more a lurker than a book discussion joiner. I’m in Goodreads more to find books I’d like to read than to actively discuss them (comment way above everyone is here to discuss books). I’d guess that Goodreads is like most internet groups where there are many more ‘mostly lurkers’ than the smaller number who regularly jump into discussions. Sorry this got so long, I looked at commenting a few days ago and didn’t jump in.
The problem with a badge for authors is that if authors, then why not editors, or illustrators, or translators? Pretty soon everyone will have a badge of some sort. And what about cross-artistic endeavors? It would be awful. If an unfortunate new-joiner innocently wandered into a group and everyone was badged, well. Hmm. There is enough 'marketing'--more than enough. Can't do anything without an add popping up.
There are tons of groups whose specific purpose is connecting authors (mostly indies) to readers.
Michel wrote: "MrsJoseph wrote: "While there are a lot of things for a person to learn, I think that a lot of the missteps that happen here are done in willful ignorance.There are books to read that give tips. ..."
Maybe I should start a thread on being a reader on Goodreads... that way I can talk without an author telling me that my feelings aren't valid.
MrsJoseph wrote: "Michel wrote: "MrsJoseph wrote: "While there are a lot of things for a person to learn, I think that a lot of the missteps that happen here are done in willful ignorance.
There are books to read t..."
MrsJoseph, I am simply asking that you tone down the vehemence. I never said that your feelings aren't valid. The few rare times when I identified myself as an author was simply in response to a query or to clarify my response, all without doing any promotion. Again, this thread is titled 'Thoughts on being a writer on Goodreads' and I would like to be able to participate in it without being demeaned. You may have feelings, but I do have feelings too.
@Allison. I again emphasize the title of this thread. Well, those were my thoughts as a writer, that's all, no promotions involved. If that breaks your rules, then I would question the fairness of your 'moderation'.
There are books to read t..."
MrsJoseph, I am simply asking that you tone down the vehemence. I never said that your feelings aren't valid. The few rare times when I identified myself as an author was simply in response to a query or to clarify my response, all without doing any promotion. Again, this thread is titled 'Thoughts on being a writer on Goodreads' and I would like to be able to participate in it without being demeaned. You may have feelings, but I do have feelings too.
@Allison. I again emphasize the title of this thread. Well, those were my thoughts as a writer, that's all, no promotions involved. If that breaks your rules, then I would question the fairness of your 'moderation'.
Mod
And I will please request that we do not get overly personal on this, friends. Remember, we like each other =P
Well I’ll wade in. I’m pretty neutral- I only became active on GR a few years ago and so never experienced the epic spamming that caused these rules. So I don’t have strong anti author feelings. I can easily ignore things that do pop up. From described history it sounds like this is due to hard work by the mods and those longer lasting members so I appreciate that. I also think my fellow non-authors idea (was it Maggie? I’m on my phone so can’t check easily) idea about letting some long term authors have a chance once a year might be a really nice thing - Id be interested in that although I feel like they’d have to be pre-vetted somehow......and our kids ...argh Mods already do sooo much
It does seem like there is a strong correlation between people that don’t have strong anti-author feelings and people that haven’t experienced a lot of author spamming so I suspect that’s VERY telling.
I think I arrived on Goodreads at the point where groups were cracking down on authors spamming. I have noticed that the moderators of this group are really fast to remove spammy posts. I get my notifications via email, and individual emails arrive for new threads.It's almost become a game with me to see how fast the spammy threads get dumped - particularly if I'm actually online when one drops.
And because I hang around on several Scifi and fantasy groups, I sometimes see the exact same thread spammed in up to three groups at a time. It makes me appreciate how fast the mods here act.
Having said that, the part of me that writes sometimes wishes it could respond to requests for recommendations, while at the same time, the part of me that is only a reader, reminds me not to, knowing how irritating that part of me finds it when others spam me on Twitter, Facebook, and Goodreads.
I think it's about understanding that Goodreads is actually for readers. The last thing it should be is another place where authors spam only other authors with their books.
Kira wrote: "Greetings, my fellow authors!Ever since I joined Goodreads, I've been very, VERY cautious regarding my conduct, my tone, my posts, and how much "Hey I'm a writer!" I put into my interactions with..."
I've never been embarrassed about being an author here. I loved to participate in discussions, and I felt no shame in using my books as counter-examples where it was appropriate. I don't think I've ever made one of those annoying 'buy my book' posts (but it's been many years since I started here, and I don't think about that sort of thing much, so I may have forgotten). But the incredible hostility to authors in most of these groups has reduced my interest to the point where I rarely even read the digests anymore. I just discovered this thread today.
Trike wrote: "I think ultimately you just have to write the best book you can and do it just for yourself as a hobby. If you make a little cash from it, that’s a nice bonus."Correct.
What I find disappointing is that too many books offered by GR authors have 1 or 2 group comments, that's it. They are however in the right section so that's good, but it would be nice to see some participation other than a book plug.
M.L. wrote: "What I find disappointing is that too many books offered by GR authors have 1 or 2 group comments, that's it. They are however in the right section so that's good, but it would be nice to see some ..."
I fully concur with that. Even without reading books announced by Goodreads authors (in the proper sections), I would like to see questions from members about said books more often. Up to now, the most I got was nearly always limited to a 'congratulation and good luck'. The lack of interest in authors other than 'bestselling' or 'classic' authors is frankly discouraging.
I fully concur with that. Even without reading books announced by Goodreads authors (in the proper sections), I would like to see questions from members about said books more often. Up to now, the most I got was nearly always limited to a 'congratulation and good luck'. The lack of interest in authors other than 'bestselling' or 'classic' authors is frankly discouraging.
I read self-published books a lot (mostly sticking to fantasy though I ventured a bit into SF as well) but truth is that I usually choose it the way that I look on the Amazon recommendations I get every while and look up those that look interesting on GR (because GR seems to have more ratings/reviews). If they have my interest, they'll go to my offline TBR list.And yes, I've joined most likely after the author spam some people mention so I have no idea what it is about - and no anti-author feelings. As for the author section, it's mostly limited to "book on sale" threads which, well, don't have many things to say. I replied to that once when I had a question regarding the sequels.
What could work more if people actually made a thread about a book being released (not just on sale) and willing to talk more about it - let people ask about the writing process, inspirations, discuss what moments they liked (or not) etc. Yet, I am not sure I'd be able to do that myself when I'm done.
Tomas wrote: "What could work more if people actually made a thread about a book being released (not just on sale) and willing to talk more about it - let people ask about the writing process, inspirations, discuss what moments they liked (or not) etc. ..."
That is exactly what I would like to see happen. What I want is to exchange ideas and opinions about what interest readers and what they like in books.
That is exactly what I would like to see happen. What I want is to exchange ideas and opinions about what interest readers and what they like in books.
I'm a reader who's been following this thread with interest. Having come into this group with author spaces strictly separate from the reader spaces, that's the way I prefer things to be. I've seen some names in this thread who have tried to inveigle themselves into the reader spaces multiple times with "as an author." Several more have participated in reader threads in good faith, showing respect for the rules here, and for their fellow travelers. Guess whose page I would be more likely to visit?
Anything like a "give SPA a chance for a read in the main group" as suggested upthread sounds like an opportunity for conflict and authors' and readers' hurt feelings. No thanks!
M.L. wrote: "What I find disappointing is that too many books offered by GR authors have 1 or 2 group comments, that's it. They are however in the right section so that's good, but it would be nice to see some ..."Replying to my own message :) I wasn't clear: I meant that authors need to make more group comments about other things, books, whatever, aside from just the one or two comments they make to plug/promote their own books.
I also agree with that, M.L.. Be assured that I am not the type that throw in only a few comments just to help promote my books. In fact, I don't promote my books, as I am not selling them. However, my previous comment about wanting to see more questions from GR readers when a new book is announced still stands.
M.L. wrote: "What I find disappointing is that too many books offered by GR authors have 1 or 2 group comments, that's it. They are however in the right section so that's good, but it would be nice to see some ..."Yeah, they basically use GR (and us) as a promotional tool.
Like this guy Stephen with his “Mapped Universe” books — I’ve literally never seen him post anything other than spam for his books, and he’s posted in all of the SF groups I belong to.
I’m never going to buy his books because he’s not one of us. He’s just trawling, which is pretty rude.
Tomas wrote: "What could work more if people actually made a thread about a book being released (not just on sale) and willing to talk more about it - let people ask about the writing process, inspirations, discuss what moments they liked (or not) etc. Yet, I am not sure I'd be able to do that myself when I'm done."Michel wrote: "That is exactly what I would like to see happen. What I want is to exchange ideas and opinions about what interest readers and what they like in books."
This is everywhere. Authors regularly ask for comments, help, assistance, betas, more readers, additional comments, plot help, blurb help, etc. This isn't going to make a lot of additional interest because we get this already. In almost every group.
The best way to learn what readers are interested in is...to participate as a reader. Don't try to turn reader groups into author work groups - those already exist. Instead talk to us as you would a reading friend who IS NOT reading your book. What would you ask them about what they like, dislike, would like to see more of? (That is not related to your book or recc'ing your book. )
This group alone has a ton of different threads that discuss what readers like, dislike, love and hate. THOSE are the threads you should join and discuss. Maybe make some other threads that are not about your book but do discuss reader likes - threads like "Your Fave Is Problematic" or "What Would You Like to See Different About Books" really digs into those things. don't see something you are interested in? Create a thread.
Trike wrote: "M.L. wrote: "What I find disappointing is that too many books offered by GR authors have 1 or 2 group comments, that's it. They are however in the right section so that's good, but it would be nice..."The trawling, I agree, it's so transparent.
MrsJoseph wrote: "Tomas wrote: "What could work more if people actually made a thread about a book being released (not just on sale) and willing to talk more about it - let people ask about the writing process, insp...Michel wrote: "That is exactly what I would like to see happen. What I want is to exchange ideas and opinions about what interest readers and what they like in books."
I know exactly what I want to read! (Waits impatiently for GRRM's next.) and in the meantime I'm reading what I want to read. Kind of circuitous. :)
M.L. wrote: "I know exactly what I want to read! (Waits impatiently for GRRM's next.) and in the meantime I'm reading what I want to read. Kind of circuitous. :) "Me, too. I want to read more Raksura and more Murderbot. I gets no Murderbot until 2020 and no Raksura unless I re-read.
In the meantime, I distract myself with books that are mostly fluff (until they're not), rereads and the occasional foray into Space Opera that I rarely enjoy because I'm a picky and moody reader.
I like the new thread the Mods set up, Member Author Promotions! It makes it easier to see and keep track of new works and, I don't know, just seems more like a natural process. :) Thanks!
Mod
Trike wrote: "M.L. wrote: "What I find disappointing is that too many books offered by GR authors have 1 or 2 group comments, that's it. They are however in the right section so that's good, but it would be nice..."He posted in pretty well all of my groups too!
Kira wrote: "Greetings, my fellow authors!Ever since I joined Goodreads, I've been very, VERY cautious regarding my conduct, my tone, my posts, and how much "Hey I'm a writer!" I put into my interactions with..."
I agree 100% with you. That's probably why I don't sell more books than I do--hate promoting! Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!
Trike wrote: "I’m a dancer."Really? I'm a lawyer.
I wanted to address MrsJoseph's first comments in the thread in particular. I hope you don't think that it's the readers I have a problem with because absolutely nothing could be farther from the trust. And in all honesty, I don't even have a problem with the writers who viewed GRs as a promotion bonanza and went crazy and left a bad taste in readers' mouths because of it. I totally get why readers are still peeved and wary of us indie writers because of a few (or maybe several) bad actors.
Norton's right: promoting a book is HARD. And oftentimes nerve wracking and confusing when all the responsibility for your own work is falling on you. Most of the indies I know, myself included, didn't have any sort of background in marketing or promotion before we decided to try being indie authors. There's been a lot of bumps and bruises gained along the way to strike an effective balance, and considering how young the indie publishing industry still is, I'm sure there's gonna be more to come.
But I don't blame ANYONE for their feelings or emotions, on any side of this. At the heart of it, we're all here for books. Reading them, writing them, sharing our love for them in whatever form that takes.
I guess for me, I'm just trying to learn how to navigate those feelings so I can at once be a "good citizen" of GRs as well as a proud indie author.
That's all :)