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5G Technology
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FUTURISTIC TECH > The 5G network. And is it anything to worry about? (and will humanity still be around for 6G?!)

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message 1: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 7753 comments Can someone explain what 5G is, please.
I keep hearing about it but don't understand difference from 4G...
What is 5G in a nutshell?

I've come across various articles and videos like these lately:

"5G and What Really Makes it Disturbing" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq4wB...

Intel's 5G future can turn humans into IoT devices https://www.techradar.com/news/phone-...

5G is expected to start reaching US customers, and others in many developed nations, by the end of the year...

So now is not a bad to to ask what y'all think about 5G conspiracy theories...Are they just paranoia and the fear of new technology?
Or might there be cause for concern with this new technology?


message 2: by Jim (new)

Jim (jimliedeka) | 567 comments I hadn't heard about any conspiracy theories until you posted this.

As a technical person, I am looking forward to wide availability of 5G. Assuming I can get sane data prices from my provider, I could finally kick my cable company to the curb.


message 3: by Jim (new)

Jim (jimliedeka) | 567 comments I listened to a little over half of the linked video. He took his time getting to the point. He thinks Transhumanists will be able to achieve transcendence with 5G and leave everyone else behind. I very much doubt it.


message 4: by David (new)

David Elkin | 478 comments excellent point James-Tin foil hats are everywhere!


message 5: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 7753 comments Okay, I'm getting slightly more up to speed on this topic now. One thing I notice is China is ahead of the US and every other country in terms of its 5G equipment and infrastructure in place.

Not sure the concerns about 5G and its interrelated privacy/health/transhumanist issues are only coming from tinfoil hat-style conspiracy extremists...It appears there are individuals and groups in the middle ground who have concerns.

For example, I got an email from a British friend who works in the technology sector and here are some excerpts of his in reply to my questions:

"5G uses a different frequencies and wavelengths - the outcry comes from some about the spectrum range being bad for health due to this."

"The catch is that everything will be centralised and easily fine tuned. ALL your data and resource ability will be on the remote server, not stored locally on the hard-drive (although they'll provide facility for that). You could be locked down by identity at that pinpoint as you login to the ISP, so for dystopians think about that?"

"In relation to the rumours or theories that 5G will be where transhumanism kicks in, it's due to more bandwidth and faster speeds = more ability for humans and devices to be connected..."


message 6: by Jim (new)

Jim (jimliedeka) | 567 comments The higher bandwidth from 5G will enable people so not need local storage. I see that as a benefit. If you don't want your data in the cloud, they aren't going to stop making hard drives any time soon.

As for tracking concerns, that ship has sailed. Google, Facebook, Amazon, and many others are constantly tracking web activity even if we don't use their services. Fingerprinting users by browser and activity has gotten scary good. That's already here and better bandwidth isn't really a factor.


message 7: by Iain (last edited Jul 21, 2018 10:18AM) (new)

Iain McKenzie (Iain_mckenzie) | 1578 comments Jim wrote: "The higher bandwidth from 5G will enable people so not need local storage. I see that as a benefit. If you don't want your data in the cloud, they aren't going to stop making hard drives any time s..."

You don't have to rely on a browser(application layer)or the like to siphon data for eavesdropping purposes, it can be done at the network level(see link below) if needed.

(if we are talking high-level surveillance?)

The only down-fall at present with that approach, it would seem, is cost, storage capacity and sifting through all that data to get "information of interest".

But advances in A.I. and storage will take care of that.

http://www.blackhat.com/presentations...

What increasing and better bandwidth might allow for, in conjunction with The Cloud, is for the off-shifting of CPU, memory, GPU and storage via streaming services.

Eventually, I predict you will log straight into your ISP(or a third-party proxy) to access your "virtual space" of resources, with a less cumbersome or part bloated(increased mobility) desktop or mobile.

Basically home VDI.

No more faffing about having to install your OS locally or having to buy a computer with sufficient technical specifications that cater to "local" demands, with added incentive such as remote backup, snapshots, resource scaling on the fly, etc, and all the rest at affordable and attractive costs.

Imagine the business model that can be created around that?

From the dystopian perspective: not only will you be able to be tracked with more granularity than ever before due to the centralisation aspect, at this juncture, if needed, but it becomes easier to deal with anonymity to a degree, identify and lock you down(a bit of imagination here and you can see the obvious danger) too.

The biggest 'pain in the ass' when it comes to computer security, cyberwar and all the rest is attribution, as a lot of the current tracking to the source can easily be circumvented or negated.

This above 'centralised idea' isn't a panacea here , but it would offer a way to 'reign in that anonymity advantage' to a good degree, IMHO.

The less colourful aspect to 5G, is that it's part of the groundwork being laid for the next monumental shift in tech that will happen with AI and VR.


message 8: by Jim (new)

Jim (jimliedeka) | 567 comments Iain, those are some good points. I was thinking shorter term. We actually have all the pieces to move everything to the cloud now except for reliable bandwidth. It may become very appealing to end users at the expense of consumer hardware manufacturers. It will be interesting to see how long that sort of shift will take.


message 9: by Iain (last edited Jul 21, 2018 12:44PM) (new)

Iain McKenzie (Iain_mckenzie) | 1578 comments Jim wrote: "Iain, those are some good points. I was thinking shorter term. We actually have all the pieces to move everything to the cloud now except for reliable bandwidth. It may become very appealing to end..."

VDI is becoming ever more popular and cost effective for businesses to implement.

games are currently streamable with Nvidia shield

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/shield/g...

Adobe has a similar beta program in development:

https://edex.adobe.com/projectphotosh...

For the most part, people need local parts like graphics cards or extra resources to help with video/photo editing or gaming.

Streaming is gonna cut down the cost of access to technology and increase the ability to access services(subscription based), and open new markets.

This is just my humble opinion, but I give it 5 -10 years Jim.

If we had a Steve Jobs type out there(disruptive innovator) we might have seen this kinda stuff moved a lot quicker.


message 10: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 7753 comments Does this quote "90% reduced energy needs through new efficient micro base station technology" in following article mean 5G might reduce pollution and/or energy needs for the planet?

5G: what it means and why there will never be a 6G https://business.carphonewarehouse.co...


message 11: by Iain (last edited Jul 23, 2018 01:35AM) (new)

Iain McKenzie (Iain_mckenzie) | 1578 comments I remember hearing a similar argument when ISPs first started offering 1-2mbps, i.e. you don't really need more than that.

Who knows where we will be in 20 years?

Nearly 20 years ago I was on a dial-up.

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/comms...

"90% reduced energy"

They'll need all that extra energy for all the Bitcoin mining that's gonna take over the world of finance and supplant tangibles like Gold
(if you believe pigs can fly).

"5G will require these new innovations in order to create the greater value required to ensure its success. Mesh Networks will be employed to allow devices to talk to each other wirelessly and when required they will piggyback off each other while finding a route to the internet. This essential element of the overall 5G picture will help free up bandwidth."

Tethering on steroids. Better hope it makes the security grade before we even get around to 6 . . . .


message 12: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 7753 comments Sounds like a Brave New World... Do you feel we have too many tech-heads (who always seem to only foresee utopian futures and technological wonderlands) making all these decisions for us? I'm pro new inventions and not a Luddite, but at same I'm just wondering if there are enough philosophical thinkers and humanitarians involved in these decision making process for the Earth's future? In other words, have we got the balance right?


message 13: by Iain (last edited Jul 23, 2018 12:01PM) (new)

Iain McKenzie (Iain_mckenzie) | 1578 comments I don't think we have, and tech amelioration isn't allowing for any 'slack' in this quarter either.

I think you need that non-binary thinking and input of philosophers, humanitarians, artists, writers, futurists, 'out of the box' types and so on, who might be more readily to speculate the direction humanity is going in conjunction with machines and technology, from a more personal and emotional aspect.

We're in the nascent stages of development where technology in the future will have the ability to supplant us as a species in just about every area you can think of.

While on this line of thought: this might be worth a read, James

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Know-Alls-Po...


message 14: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 7753 comments That book is calling Silicon Valley a "social wrecking ball"... Sheesh


message 15: by Iain (new)

Iain McKenzie (Iain_mckenzie) | 1578 comments I thought The Circle did an OK job of giving you an idea of what can happen when 'geeks' wanna overstep in saving the world, albeit at the expense of the individual:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCOXA...


message 16: by Iain (last edited Jul 23, 2018 02:16AM) (new)

Iain McKenzie (Iain_mckenzie) | 1578 comments James wrote: "That book is calling Silicon Valley a "social wrecking ball"... Sheesh"

Bit of a generalisation, there's some good ones. :)

I'd also throw in historians for balance too. In fact they would be instrumental seeing as most great civilisations fell due to implosion and their own misguidance.

There's similarities on a number of spheres with that and our current tech trajectory.


message 17: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 7753 comments I might watch that film tonight. Quite like how the trailer begins as a techno utopia then veers sharply toward a dystopian reality by the end...

So given 5G will allow for the internet of things to become a reality, could it be that although 5G is benign or neutral in nature it could indirectly lead to many potential problems? Or ethical issues?

Or have I been watching too many Sci fi films?


message 18: by Iain (last edited Jul 23, 2018 02:27AM) (new)

Iain McKenzie (Iain_mckenzie) | 1578 comments James wrote: "I might watch that film tonight. Quite like how the trailer begins as a techno utopia then veers sharply toward a dystopian reality by the end...

So given 5G will allow for the internet of things ..."


I think there's a lot of misconceptions on a number of levels, i.e. health and frequencies it operates at, complexity of base stations and so on.

The biggest danger will come from the exponential footprint or attack surface of the multitude of devices accessing it.

Do you really want to live in a world where your toaster can give you data feedback?

We're shooting the messenger in a way, if you put all the focus on 5G alone.


message 19: by Iain (last edited Jul 23, 2018 02:36AM) (new)

Iain McKenzie (Iain_mckenzie) | 1578 comments If you watch that movie James, you'll see the danger in 'data overload' and profiling.

5G with IoT and all the rest will help to incubate a world of technology that thinks for us in terms of statistics.

There's nothing wrong with that in and of itself, it the over-reliance part and trying to reduce humankind to algorithms and numbers that's the problem.

Sometimes good ol human sense(5 or if your lucky 6 of them) can be good enough to get you through.


message 20: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 7753 comments What your implying reminds me of that old British TV series The Prisoner where the lead actor patrick mcgoohan's catch phrase of rebellion was "I am not a number!"


message 21: by Iain (new)

Iain McKenzie (Iain_mckenzie) | 1578 comments James wrote: "What your implying reminds me of that old British TV series The Prisoner where the lead actor patrick mcgoohan's catch phrase of rebellion was "I am not a number!""

And I think I got unlucky number 6! :)


message 22: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 7753 comments He was Number 6 in that series. As a random aside, Mcgoohan played the evil English king in Braveheart in case you don't know. Totally random, I know!


message 23: by Iain (last edited Jul 23, 2018 03:12AM) (new)

Iain McKenzie (Iain_mckenzie) | 1578 comments I didn't, but now I do.

My favourite scene, James :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4S7QA...

(if you would have never had said that, I wouldn't be any wiser.)


message 24: by Jim (new)

Jim (jimliedeka) | 567 comments I loved The Prisoner. I am one of those weirdos that actually liked the ending. McGoohan was pretty far out, in a good way.


message 25: by Kathi (new)

Kathi Defranc (KathiD) | 1 comments James wrote: "Sounds like a Brave New World... Do you feel we have too many tech-heads (who always seem to only foresee utopian futures and technological wonderlands) making all these decisions for us? I'm pro n..."I I totally agree with you James, I feel we are very unbalanced right now, too many tech thinkers with no down to earth, realistic humanitarians, so many look toward the future but do not live now, in the present!


message 26: by Jim (new)

Jim (jimliedeka) | 567 comments I work as a software developer and I've been thinking about the lack of diversity in IT. My group has nine developers. Only two are women and all of us are white. We maxed out at three women with one being South Asian. I've been hearing that IT generally is not very welcoming of diversity. I work at a major university that emphasizes inclusiveness so I'm not sure why we have the demographics we do.

My image of places like Silicon Valley is that it's a bro culture. I wonder how much that permeates the rest of the country.


message 27: by Iain (new)

Iain McKenzie (Iain_mckenzie) | 1578 comments I am all for it, but the thing is how do you implement diversity without doing so at the expense of merit?

Out of curiosity what do you program in Jim?

And do you see Golang becoming more popular than Python and gradually replacing it?

(sorry to take off subject)


message 28: by Jim (new)

Jim (jimliedeka) | 567 comments My main languages are Java, Ruby/Rails and Bash shell scripting.

I've been keeping an eye on Go and Rust. One of the sysadmins here was using Go.

I'm also interested in Elixir, a Ruby looking language built on top of Erlang. I think the future is programming for concurrent processing even though most of my current stuff doesn't need it.


message 29: by Jim (new)

Jim (jimliedeka) | 567 comments Returning to the 5G topic, this news was everywhere yesterday.

Qualcomm Announces Their First 5G mmWave Antenna Module: QTM052, Coming This Year
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13106/...


message 30: by Iain (last edited Jul 24, 2018 11:18AM) (new)

Iain McKenzie (Iain_mckenzie) | 1578 comments Jim wrote: "My main languages are Java, Ruby/Rails and Bash shell scripting.

I've been keeping an eye on Go and Rust. One of the sysadmins here was using Go.

I'm also interested in Elixir, a Ruby looking lan..."


Rust is an interesting one. I am looking at GO myself just now.

My background is more Sysadmin/support, but I am trying to get into front-end web development more to work for myself remotely.

Looking at GO to eventually fulfil back-end needs(REST).

Wonder though if Web Assembly will upset the apple-cart and make it relatively trivial as to what language you choose for web development?

Getting back on track, judging by the size of that module in the link: you wonder how small they will be able to go with nano-tech in the future?


message 31: by Jim (new)

Jim (jimliedeka) | 567 comments Presumably there's a minimum size for an effective antenna. Because the waves are tiny, the antenna can also be. This looks like something for shorter distances so there will need to be more repeaters and whatnot.


message 32: by Iain (last edited Jul 24, 2018 11:40AM) (new)

Iain McKenzie (Iain_mckenzie) | 1578 comments Kinda something like this:

https://www.cnet.com/news/spray-on-an...


message 33: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 7753 comments First 2 minutes of this video (before it turns weird) are perhaps worth a look...

Testing New 5G Router for EMF Radiation, Dangerous Levels https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQhg_...


message 34: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 7753 comments Not sure at all if any of these health concerns are true or not, but just trying to balance out you tech boys promoting utopia in this thread :)

Jon Rappoport Report On 5G Roll-out, Internet Of Things & Implications For Humanity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrURS...


message 35: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 7753 comments I also wonder if it's not so much that 5G has health implications, but more that 5G will be the point where a Brave New World kicks in and our lives start reflecting sci-fi movies of yesteryear with driverless cars, every electric device you can talk to, etc, etc?
And so 5G will be the point where all the ethical questions will become very pertinent, especially with spying on citizens...

Just a thought.


message 36: by Iain (new)

Iain McKenzie (Iain_mckenzie) | 1578 comments "And so 5G will be the point where all the ethical questions will become very pertinent, especially with spying on citizens..."

Can't wait for all those 'terms and conditions' caveats that will accompany as well . . . .


message 37: by Iain (last edited Jul 24, 2018 09:18PM) (new)

Iain McKenzie (Iain_mckenzie) | 1578 comments Bruce Schneier is always worth a listen:

Regulating the Internet of Things

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b05ks...


message 38: by Iain (new)

Iain McKenzie (Iain_mckenzie) | 1578 comments Bruce Schneier - Security and Privacy in a Hyper-connected World

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUXV2...


message 39: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 7753 comments Iain wrote: ""Can't wait for all those 'terms and conditions' caveats that will accompany as well . . . . ..."

Meaning if we drop dead by being 5G guinea pigs, our loved ones won't get a penny?


message 40: by Iain (last edited Jul 25, 2018 02:03AM) (new)

Iain McKenzie (Iain_mckenzie) | 1578 comments Eh?

I was meaning, on the surface it will look like there's protections in place to stop that sort of intrusion just to placate us and allay any fears, and then you'll find that the 'small print' shows how this can be circumvented and how their particular form of data collection(spying) is actually legal . . . . Multiply that by god knows how many devices when IoT comes along . . . .


message 41: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 7753 comments Iain wrote: "Eh?

I was meaning, on the surface it will look like there's protections in place to stop that sort of intrusion just to placate us and allay any fears, and then you'll find that the 'small print'..."


Oh yeah...that too!


message 42: by Iain (new)

Iain McKenzie (Iain_mckenzie) | 1578 comments "Meaning if we drop dead by being 5G guinea pigs, our loved ones won't get a penny? "

There will be some protection in there for companies as well no doubt.

Something like: "by using this product you as an individual or entity aknowledge that we have the rights to fry your brain cells at near boiling point or equivalent."


message 43: by Glen (new)

Glen Tucker (TommyTucker) | 55 comments That would be fine if the individual made the agreement, but 5G has to be distributed via direct line of sight transmission. 5G is basically radar, and towards the microwave spectrum of electromagnetic radiation, acknowledge as dangerous to human beings.
Wholesale installation of 5G in cities is currently underway and cities are surreptitiously preparing by cutting down all the trees to enable this criterion to be met. No one is admitting how dangerous or foolhardy this is!


message 44: by Iain (last edited Jul 26, 2018 04:33PM) (new)

Iain McKenzie (Iain_mckenzie) | 1578 comments Glen wrote: "That would be fine if the individual made the agreement, but 5G has to be distributed via direct line of sight transmission. 5G is basically radar, and towards the microwave spectrum of electromagn..."

"That would be fine if the individual made the agreement"

Tell me: do you currently read the 'terms and conditions' before you attach any internet enabled device or software with online capabilities?


message 45: by Glen (new)

Glen Tucker (TommyTucker) | 55 comments More important is the undemocratic nature of the behavior of the ”authorities”


message 46: by Iain (last edited Jul 27, 2018 11:58PM) (new)

Iain McKenzie (Iain_mckenzie) | 1578 comments Bruce Schneier made a good point in one of the above links(think it was the first one).

It kinda like how this all started.

You can go back to the net with DARPA ,protocols and all the rest to where it is now, i.e. in hands of the private sector and dictated by market needs.

To paraphrase Bruce Schneier from one of the above links(think it's the 1st one), he said: "basically there might be no other option than for the government to intervene and regulate due to the "security footprint" and implications posed by so many devices or the ability, seemingly, for nearly any physical objects to become a device(or computer).

Looks like it's returning full circle . . . .


message 47: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 7753 comments Agreed, Iain.
You think maybe it's a case where the right sort of govt can be helpful in protecting citizens, but the wrong type of govt (one that has conflicts of interest and is in bed with tech companies) can cause double trouble for citizens?


message 48: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 7753 comments Glen wrote: "More important is the undemocratic nature of the behavior of the ”authorities”"

Yes. That is a major worry.

But what about the concept of Little Brother in this regard?

Can Little Brother (and Little Sister) overthrow Big Brother? https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...?


message 49: by Iain (last edited Jul 28, 2018 01:23AM) (new)

Iain McKenzie (Iain_mckenzie) | 1578 comments James wrote: "Agreed, Iain.
You think maybe it's a case where the right sort of govt can be helpful in protecting citizens, but the wrong type of govt (one that has conflicts of interest and is in bed with tech ..."


Reminds me of that quote: "those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Getting a workable balance will be a struggle.

With A.I., IoT, Big Data and all the rest, the danger of dual-use(protection, intrusion) goes through the roof . . . .

The Iranian Green Revolution and Twitter was a good example of 'lil bro or sis' making that work for societiy's greater interests and acting as a checks and balances, but it was co-opted too by outsiders, so sorta limits it power.

It's a complex question, that I am not qualified enough to answer to be honest.


message 50: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 7753 comments Yeah and it's almost moving so fast. For example, when you say "With A.I., IoT, Big Data and all the rest, the danger of dual-use(protection, intrusion) goes through the roof", my first thought was "are we as a civilization adequately prepared for all the ethical issues relating to this new tech?"


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