"Gods, Monsters, and the Lucky Peach" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[Allison]

This is now the official group read for April 2024! Please see Anna's post below for the first impressions thread.

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Sorry this is up late, I kept forgetting its name and then got distracted by AI gender every time I'd go look.

Anyways, here's the buddy read for our Inclusive Book Bingo for July! You do not need to play along to join in the discussion. Please use chapter titles and spoiler brackets so we can follow along!

[Rachel]

I was actually thinking it would be good to have a bit of space between these and the group reads so it’s not late! 😁

[Anna]

This is now our April 2024 official group read. Open spoilers starting from message #65.

First impressions

[Donald]

Just kicked this off and am enjoying it immensely at the moment. My only negative is trying to juggle Children of Time (needs to go back to the library next week) and it (owned, so lower priority).

[Allison]

Just ordered it, should be here next week!

[Jordan]

Just started this last night. I'm about 50 pages in and so far I'm definitely intrigued.

[Ariana]

Is there a word for when a book just throws you into the middle of things and you have to slowly piece together what's going on?

I feel like this is a delicate balance: too much in-the-middle-ness and it can be confusing and hard to follow, not enough and you just get big info dumps...

This one is starting out a little heavy on the in-the-middle-ness, but I'm usually willing to power through until things become clearer.

[Anna]

Ariana wrote: "Is there a word for when a book just throws you into the middle of things and you have to slowly piece together what's going on?"

Yoon Ha Lee? :D

Maybe I should start this one today.

[Allison]

Interesting, here I am on the info dump side of things with Sea of Rust wishing it started in media res! Sounds like itll be a good palate cleanser :)

[Paul]

I started this a couple of days ago coincidentally (or perhaps I was subconsciously remembering it was a buddy read!)


Really good so far, a fast read as well.

[Rachel]

Oh good I prefer being dumped into things! Makes my brain work a bit 😊

[Paul]

I like the way that Robson doesn't explain everything. that the history and technology is just the world in which the characters exist so we only gradually become aware of the situation.

[Jordan]

On chapter 13 now. I would love my own fake to deal with people I don't want to deal with personally!

Spoilers for chapter 7 (view spoiler)[ Wow. She chopped off parts of her body to go on this trip. Of course I'd probably be willing to do a lot to be able to time travel. And at least she'll get cool replacements? Octopus legs do sound kind of fun. (hide spoiler)]

[Ariana]

So this is fun!
Ch. 11, p. 118
(view spoiler)[

The sheer enormity of the project loomed overhead. What had she been thinking? This was going to be a disaster. Minh took a deep breath. She always got vertigo at the start of every big project. It would all work out fine. One task at a time.

This is me before every project.
(hide spoiler)]

[Jordan]

Oh, forgot to post here since I finished this. Thoughts on the end:

(view spoiler)[ That ending was kind of abrupt for me. I really wanted to see how they got along in the ancient world. Did they change anything in history by being there? Or did they just end up as a legend? Give me more! (hide spoiler)]

[Allison]

I've only just started. I'm really intrigued. It's such a wacky mix of things, like someone put a bunch of fiction words in a martini shaker and whatever strained out became a book idea.

And yet it seems to be working well!

[Ariana]

Ch. 13
(view spoiler)[Seriously, do they not have tasers or not-lethal projectiles in the future?! Tranq darts?
(hide spoiler)]

[Jamesboggie]

My copy just got to the library. I will pick it up and start tomorrow.

[Ariana]

Jordan wrote: "Oh, forgot to post here since I finished this. Thoughts on the end:

[spoilers removed]"

I totally agree! (view spoiler)[After all this set-up, we don't get to see much of what happens in the past. Disappointing!

I'm not exactly sure I'm clear on Fabian's plan at the end.

You'll die here, Fabian continued. When I get back to TERN, I'll make a quick recall mission, pick up your team from medical, and bring you all forward.

What? Where is he picking up the previous versions of the team from?

So does this mean the "collapsing timeline" theory is wrong?

Also, I wish the little bits at the beginning of each chapter that were from Shulgi's POV had been in order, or at least easier to match up. The bit at the beginning of Chapter 1 clearly fits in with the narrative later on. The rest seemed like it was mostly in order, but it wasn't clear to me how the other parts synced with the time travelers' timeline... Like the bit about Susa clearing out the temple and Shulgi thinking she'd gone mad... When did that happen? After the time travelers came, but... When? Before or after the soldiers were killed?
(hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

I read the first two chapters and now I’m angry at myself for not waiting until tomorrow! It’s 2:30AM and I’m struggling to keep my eyes open, but I want to keep reading! I have to sleep though :(

[Anna]

I've read nine chapters and am loving it. I'm worried seeing some of you have only rated it three stars though, so I'm prepared for something to blow up in my face soon.

Favorite part so far (chapter 3): (view spoiler)[ Minh hanging on the bathroom wall to stretch out her back! I've often wished I could hang upside down to give my spine a good kick in the joints, so I guess now I want lower body tentacles. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison]

Excuse me Anna. They're legs. ;-)

[Allison]

I'm also enjoying it. Ariana I see what you mean about being thrown in! But it's so weird I'm having fun trying to piece it all together.

[Anna]

Yes they are, I didn't say they weren't! I just want tentacles for *me* ! Because obviously tentacles are way cooler than plain old legs.

[Allison]

Ah, you want to be a squid plague baby then.

That's fair.

[Anna]

lol, no squid tentacles, please! You've already seen my tentacles, I'll show everyone else in just a few days! :D

Everyone, keep your eyes peeled for lurking tentacles!

[Allison]

O.o

[Anna]

Finished. Loved it! I might bump my rating up to 5, I'll need to think about it.

(view spoiler)[ I love the ending, I would definitely read something else in this world, but I don't need to know what happens next. (hide spoiler)]

[Ariana]

Anna wrote: "Finished. Loved it! I might bump my rating up to 5, I'll need to think about it.

[spoilers removed]"

Hopefully this is the one that gets you out of your book slump! You're due for a streak of good ones.

[Anna]

Yes, I'm feeling happy about reading once again, there are still lovely things out there! I wasn't too worried about this one, I've liked most Tor.com novellas lately, and many of them have been simply amazing.

[Jamesboggie]

I got the book yesterday, and I am 5 chapters in.

It feels like it is moving slowly even though the plot started immediately.

I assume the tentacles will be explained later.

Bureaucratic time travel reminds me of Poul Anderson.

[Jamesboggie]

I am now 9 chapters in.

(view spoiler)[ The team has won the contract. They are now preparing for the trip.

This book is not quite clicking for me. Robson avoids exposition for a more natural implicit exploration of her world. I understand the approach, but I do think there are issues with conveyance.

For instance, I do not understand billable hours. It seems like it is a currency, but are hours valued differently for different people? Do you get more billable hours for more valuable projects regardless of the actual hours spent? How is Kiki's debt measured in hours? Why use hours rather than credits? It's a small detail that pulled me out of the story. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison]

Jamesboggie wrote: "I am now 9 chapters in.

James, my thoughts on your question:

(view spoiler)[ In professions, billable hours are the hours actually spent working on the project, not all hours you work. Administrative stuff--copying, internal, informal meetings not specifically related to the job at hand, travel, organizing yourself for the job, none of that counts. They do differ for folks. For example, Kiki is only at quarter-work, and on top of that likely her rate for that work is at least a quarter of what the experts can charge. Winning work that calls for 2-3 full time people (ex. 3 people at 40 hours a week simply for that project) is waaay different than something that will take 100 billable hours with a maintenance check up in the future.

As far as credits vs. hours, it sounds like with fabricators, physical cash might not be as big a deal. Time, however, remains constant. My understanding is that Kiki's hab bought a lot on credit from the bank, and the derivative market in this wacky future relies not on accumulating stuff (Minh, despite being old and considered well off has a tiny apartment!) but on the use of time (at least, if you're too young or poor to have money.)

That's my thinking, anyways. You're right it's very sparse and I've had to read a lot in from my own personal knowledge, which might be completely different from what the author intended! (hide spoiler)]

[Rachel]

Just started this (and Head on) about -25 pages into both. At some point I’ll get to checking spoilers but I did not bring my laptop on this trip.

I’m enjoying the perspective of crotchety old lady (spouse already makes jokes about me yelling “ Get off my lawn!!” .....though I haven’t gotten there yet....) I understand her feeling about those young spry things.

[Jamesboggie]

I just finished Chapter 14.

(view spoiler)[I would describe this story as minimalist. There is almost no exposition. The descriptions are sparse. The plot is light with no clear arc. It feels like an attempt to write a modern science fiction novel with the absolute minimum of writing.

This does get in the way of my enjoyment of the story. For example, I finally understand the ancient Ur flashbacks. They are primitive natives' interpretations of the time travelers' technology. That would be really cool, except I cannot visualize that tech based on the descriptions in the story. Since I do not know what the tech is or looks like, I cannot appreciate the natives' descriptions of it as monsters. (hide spoiler)]

[Rachel]

Anyone in the good reads librarians group? I notice that the listing has it at 176 or something pages but my copy has well over 200....it irked me.

[Anna]

I am, which edition do you have?

edit: I see the paperback has 240 pages on Amazon, I'll edit
edit2: And the kindle is 233 pages, both are fixed

[Rachel]

Oh thank you!!!

[Jamesboggie]

I just finished Chapter 19.

(view spoiler)[The threads are becoming more apparent.

I see the sudden Baby Boomer - Millenial commentary from Kiki. It surprised me when her personality completely changed, but I can understand being disillusioned by the older generation.

I am deeply frustrated by everyone's perspectives on security. Fabian did not need to kill the natives. Still, Kiki is inexcusably stupid for unilaterally eliminating their defenses.

Now I am waiting for the natives to start killing the main characters. They deserve what they get.

Why did TERN choose to do their past state assessment at a
time with a large human population and pollution? Why not just go further back? (hide spoiler)]

[Ariana]

Jamesboggie wrote: "(view spoiler)[
I am deeply frustrated by everyone's perspectives on security. Fabian did not need to kill the natives. Still, Kiki is inexcusably stupid for unilaterally eliminating their defenses. (hide spoiler)]"

(view spoiler)[Yes, I found this very irritating as well. Really, there's no non-lethal way to disable someone? The only thing I can think is that because the physicists have decided that the timeline collapses once they leave, they feel like it doesn't matter if they kill anyone. (hide spoiler)]

Jamesboggie wrote: "(view spoiler)[Why did TERN choose to do their past state assessment at a
time with a large human population and pollution? Why not just go further back? (hide spoiler)]"

(view spoiler)[YES, WHY??? And why Mesopotamia in the first place? There was some mysterious client, and they decided it must have been a passion project of theirs... And that was it. We never got any more info about the client, or their motivations. (Right? Unless I missed it?) (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

re: Ariana/Jamesboggie

This contains some spoilers for the end of the novella. I tried, but I can't remember what came when, since I read most of it in one sitting. I did remove the actual end of book spoilers, but you can still read between the lines. Sorry, but I think you'll finish pretty soon if you're at chapter 19.

(view spoiler)[ I didn't get the impression that all of TERN was killing people, but I may be wrong. I thought it was just Fabian with his "perfect" safety record. He's likely done this countless times.

As for why that time period? They were researchers, and I think Fabian wanted something from that time. With another TERN guide, things might have gone much more smoothly. They couldn't really change the place, though, since they needed samples from Tigris and Euphrates.

They all made mistakes, like Minh tampering with her endocrine system.

Looks like I've become one of those people who just shrug off these things, it was necessary for the plot, it didn't bother me too much, even though the logic isn't very sound. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison]

I was mad at all that too. Actually very little of the story makes sense to me. Which is a shame, because I love all its trappings and frippery.

[Bree]

I read this in one sitting, enjoyed the mental exercise of matching up when the narratives would blend.
A few questions and considered answers:
(view spoiler)[(1) Did Fabian (or TERN) go to that time specifically? Minh and Kiki talked about a passion project but never expanded on that theory. I’m certain there was some reason for that particular time - perhaps to see how easily the people could be divested of their wealth? Perhaps to gauge whether it would be possible to transport the soil from the riverbanks back to their own time to refertilize? I doubt whether their motives were altruistic.
(2) Why did Fabian fill up the gurneys with Susa and two children when they can’t travel to the future? At first I thought this would be so that he could have bodies to display so he would be given permission to go back. But if they can’t travel to the future, would they even make it back? Or maybe they CAN travel to the future, and the spoils of the trip were living beings from that time?
(3) The collapsing timeline theory - yes or no? Fabian knows it’s not true - he knows he can go completely back to his own time and then go back to the timeline he has just created to pick them up a day or two earlier. So the collapsing timeline theory is a steaming crock of horse manure.
(4) Why Mesopotamia? Civilisation, I think. Especially if Fabian’s specimen people arrive back in the future intact. It’s about mining the civilisation for it’s wealth. Having said that, didn’t China and Japan and India also have civilisation by this time? Maybe Mespotamia was just the first stop.
(5) So, are we really any more civilised than our historical ancestors? Hell no. Even with polluting the waterways, they didn’t damaged the earth anywhere near as much as we have. And I’m certain that when time travel is invented, the current batch of humans will be only too happy to exploit the earlier ones. We’re just not nice people. That’s all there is to it.
I think it’s also a bit of a commentary on whether modern technology could beat primitive technology. And again, so long as there are frail, egotistical humans at the centre, I’d say no.
(6) The hawker in pink - was that Shulgi’s newest wife?
So, that’s my take. Minh & Kiri’s legs won’t work when the power runs out, so they will be cripples, but they will be looked after and live and die in that timeline. However an offshoot of that will occur when Fabian comes back to get them a few days early. The multiverse theory hard at work :-) (hide spoiler)]

[Allison]

Hey Bree, can you please put spoiler tags? We're not all done with the book!!

[Bree]

I tried to Alison but I’m on the iPad. Do you want me to pull the comments down?
Nope, it was just me being computer illiterate again. Spoiler tags now attached :-)

[Allison]

It looks good to me!! Thanks so much! Great questions, I'm gonna respond :)

[Allison]

End of book spoilers, response to Bree:

(view spoiler)[
Bree wrote: "
(1) Did Fabian (or TERN) go to that time specifically?"

This is one of my biggest critiques. It made it seem so important, we spent soo much time building up how Minh's team would get to Mesopotamia. Why? What's the catch?

Bree wrote: "
(1) Did Fabian (or TERN) go to that time specifically?"

Bree wrote: "
Why did Fabian fill up the gurneys with Susa and two children when they can’t travel to the future? "

Yeah, this was surprising too. I gathered that they could bring people or things back, which was the idea. Maybe Minh's team won because they could fit 3 people to take back? I guess if I was a historian, actually getting to talk to someone from the culture would be the highlight of my whole career. But it did seem pretty bizarre.

Bree wrote: "
(3) The collapsing timeline theory - yes or no?

My takeaway is sort of what you said later, that it doesn't so much "collapse" as "split off." If we can always draw a straight line from what's happened to where things are, then this would create a new universe. The banks are fucking up ALL the worlds.

Bree wrote: "
(4) Why Mesopotamia?

I think you're right. I think the culture, and I get the feeling the author is enamored of that mythology/culture.

Bree wrote: "
(5) So, are we really any more civilised than our historical ancestors?

Yeah, this part I agree with. I actually really liked seeing how "similar" we were, and feeling like I might have more in common with Shulgi than Minh, with her memories of hell, plague, and life as a 6-legged near immortal!

(hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

re: time travel, you can read all about how it works in Robson's own words here. The gist:

"I’m not particularly interested in paradoxes or altering the future by changing the past. My time travel is designed to be consequence-free. This is because what I like best about time travel — my favorite bit — is the ability to see how people really lived."

[Jamesboggie]

Finished last night.

(view spoiler)[ I did not like this book. So many things piled up over the course of the book.

I do feel like too much of this book comes down to whatever Robson wanted. She wanted Mesopotamia, so the characters go to Mesopotamia. She wanted Kiki to turn from an irrepressibly enthusiastic and optimistic assistant to a bitter and vindictive traitor, and it literally happened over night. She wanted Shulgi to sympathize with a monster despite spending his life learning it was his duty to slay all monsters, and he surprises us with mercy. I feel much of the book was contrived.

I find Kiki's actions indefensible. I am totally on Fabian's side, and I do not like that. I just cannot support anyone who does something as stupid as unilaterally and secretly throw away all defenses while in hostile territory. Her last actions were so arrogant too. They ruined her character for me.

I was expecting time travel physics to come up more prominently at the end. Why did they keep mentioning that the time line collapses so many times? I assumed we would find out that the time line does not collapse. Maybe you could interpret the ending as disproving TERN's assertions, but like many other aspects of this book it was too sparse to draw clear conclusion.

I wish we had more fully realized the ancient characters. Between the merciful ending with Shulgi and Allison's comment, I think the most interesting aspect of the book is the clash between the future and the past. I wish the past population had been equally as well developed as Minh and Kiki. The lack of dialogue and life style descriptions from the Ur perspective left Shulgi and Susa feeling flat to me. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

I feel like I'm in a different timeline, or maybe I read the story from a different timeline. Or did I love it because my heat addled brain is so stupid it can't process logic?

What has everyone got against Mesopotamia? I don't understand :D

I still love it <3 and everything made perfect sense to me. Now excuse me while I scuttle outta here and go hang on my shower wall.