"Carnival" by Elizabeth Bear (BR)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Hey all! This is the Inclusive Bingo Buddy Read for March! You do not have to be playing the game to participate. Please remember to use spoiler tags and reference a page/chapter/percent complete so that folks can chime in when they get where you are!

[Cheryl]

Carnival by Rawi Hage?

[Travis]

Cheryl wrote: "Carnival by Rawi Hage?"

Nope. Carnival by Elizabeth Bear.

[Cheryl]

Huh. The one that came up in my search looks more 'diverse'....

[Sarah]

I'm pretty excited about this one. I managed to find an audio copy through my library.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Ach, thanks for adding the book, Sarah! Sorry for the confusion. That Carnival does look interesting, Cheryl! But It's Miss Bear this month :) I have mine ordered!!

[Anna]

I'm also excited about this one, it sounds good and wasn't on my radar. I think I'll wait a bit before I start, so I can read along with everyone else.

[Jean]

I just received the march newsletter in my inbox, spotted this Inclusive Bingo Buddy read thing, saw Carnival, and found my way here! It's a book I'm interested in! Does this mean it's one of the books we'll be reading this month? I'm still new at this >.<

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Jeanne wrote: "I just received the march newsletter in my inbox, spotted this Inclusive Bingo Buddy read thing, saw Carnival, and found my way here! It's a book I'm interested in! Does this mean it's one of the b..."

Yes! This is our March Inclusive Buddy Read. I hope you'll join us!

[Mimi]

I'm excited for this one too. The blurb looks really interesting and it's been a while since I've read anything by Elizabeth Bear.

Will this buddy read go on for the whole month of March?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Mimi wrote: "I'm excited for this one too. The blurb looks really interesting and it's been a while since I've read anything by Elizabeth Bear.

Will this buddy read go on for the whole month of March?"

You bet! Start whenver you can :)

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

My copy is waiting to be picked up at the library, so I should be able to join in soon.

[Anna]

Is anyone reading this yet? It looks like I'll have to wait until the end of the month, since I've been having trouble reading lately. I also randomly decided to take part in a week long readathon starting this Sunday, so I'll likely start on group books after that.

[Mimi]

I was going to read this book right away, but then a couple of other buddy reads had to come first. So it looks like I will be saving it for the end of the month too, Anna.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Just started, only one chapter in so far. It’s really good. I hope more of you can join!

Chapter 1:
(view spoiler)[I’m really fascinated by the logic behind illegal gay relationships when reproductive rights are restricted. It seems counter-intuitive/counter-productive assuming a gay couple would have to find another method for conception that would presumably eaiser to control (surrogates, implantation, etc.).

Also- New Amazonia! A planet full of dueling women? Love it! The setting sounds fascinating and I hope we can spend more time there. I’m curious about Claude. To me this is a “boy” name- is she transgender perhaps? Lots of fascinating things to think on here. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

My copy should be in within the next week :D

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Chapter Two & Three

(view spoiler)[I’m sort of struggling to understand some of this. Lesa is a superperceiver- she reads body language and such, which I do get. But I’m confused about Michelangelo and Vincent. Vincent is a mind reader basically? Can he implant thoughts in people’s heads? Or is it just that they are so close and have worked together so long they can read each other that well.

Also- I want myself a House with Carpetplant. (hide spoiler)]

[Ashley in Wonderland]

I’m so bad about reading spoilers! The blurb for this book doesn’t make much sense to me so I didn’t add it, but now your comments are intriguing me Sarah!

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Ashley wrote: "I’m so bad about reading spoilers! The blurb for this book doesn’t make much sense to me so I didn’t add it, but now your comments are intriguing me Sarah!"

Well- on a personal level I don’t consider anything in the first few chapters spoilers. Mostly I worry about major plot points. But I know there are others who feel differently so I figure I’ll just cover them up and label the chapter. If I decide to reveal a twist in the plot I’ll put a *Major* in front of it.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

And also yes- the book is different. No info dumping, kind of a solve as you go. But there are lots of interesting concepts at play.

[Kristin B.]

So I have literally only just started. I'm maybe five or six pages in. So no spoilers.

I just had to pop in and say how excited I am that Michelangelo and Vincent are not 20-somethings. It is so rare to get a book, especially one with a romantic element, with characters over 30. I'm a little lost with the writing style right now, but I don't even care. Yay for not only sexual diversity, but age diversity in a story as well!

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Kristin B. wrote: "So I have literally only just started. I'm maybe five or six pages in. So no spoilers.

I just had to pop in and say how excited I am that Michelangelo and Vincent are not 20-somethings. It is so r..."

Good point- I hadn't thought of it but yes, it is refreshing!

Chapter 22
(view spoiler)[
"It's not common. Maybe 4 percent, baseline, and they do genetic surgery. Mostly not an issue to manage homosexual tendencies before birth. In boys. Girls are trickier."
His tone made her flinch.
"Did I hurt you?"
"No," she said. "Just... genetic surgery. You're so casual."
"As casual as you are about eating animals?"

Is anyone else annoyed that keeping pets and not being a vegan was compared to genetic modification/surgery and systematic "genocide" (or extinction?) of people? I'm sorry if I'm offending any vegans here, I don't intend to- but in my mind these are just not equal offenses. (Not that either side can really take the high road in their treatment of people.)

Side note- where the heck do New Amazonians get all these animals? It doesn't seem like they have farms. Are they imported? Did anyone catch that? (hide spoiler)]

[thalassic]

Edit: It occurred to me belatedly that I responded without spoiler tags. Sorry! Not enough sleep and I just wasn't paying attention to what I was doing.

(view spoiler)[I'm a vegetarian, not a vegan, but I've definitely talked to vegans who took it that seriously. Eating animals is almost like cannibalism if you really believe that all life (human and other animals) is of equal value.

In terms of this story, I felt that it was an illustration of the vast differences between their cultures and lived cultural experiences. Things like environmental protections, including animal protection laws, are so very strict and eating any kind of meat has been illegal for so long that it feels like the same kind of wrong to Michelangelo and Vincent that genetic modification feels to New Amazonians. Not like a value judgement aimed at the reader but a measure of the character's convictions.

Hopefully it's not a spoiler to say that there are some brief mentions that there are places that exist outside of the city later on. (hide spoiler)]

I was also surprised and pleased to see the ages of the characters. I don't mind all the 30-somethings in books but it's a nice changed from the heroic teenagers and early 20s characters. It makes a nice change to have characters with many years experience in their trades.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

@Liz Thanks for your input. I appreciate the perspective and I see your point about cultural convictions and differences. (view spoiler)[I think what is throwing me about it is that neither Angelo or Vincent seem overly affectionate towards animals either. They seem repulsed by the thought of living with Walter so if they are equating animals with people it would seem to me like they’d be more open to the idea of living with them? I don’t know. I suppose one could likewise argue that New Amazonians who eat animals would be less likely to live with them. I’m a victim of my own upbringing I suppose. (hide spoiler)]

[thalassic]

Sarah, (view spoiler)[They aren't repulsed by being around an animal (although I don't get the feeling that humans actually interact with animals much on their worlds due to protection laws that keep them separate), they're repulsed by people keeping animals as pets. The owning of another living creature is morally wrong to them, almost like keeping a slave. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Liz wrote: "Sarah, [spoilers removed]"

Ahh- that makes sense. Don’t know how I didn’t see it before. Thank you!

[thalassic]

I think it's made clearer as the story progresses. I read it a couple of weeks ago so I kinda have an advantage of hindsight.

[Tina]

Hello, I’m new to the group concept on goodreads. So was wondering how your group works? Does everyone try and read the same book? Or just share book ideas & recommendations?

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Liz wrote: "I think it's made clearer as the story progresses. I read it a couple of weeks ago so I kinda have an advantage of hindsight."

Haha- you're too kind. I think I really just am that dense. (view spoiler)[What you said about them equating owning pets with slavery helped put it in perspective (I have heard this before but I'd forgotten as it had been a long time since I heard it). I guess I was confusing that aspect of Coalition laws with it not also being a cultural value. Just because the government puts a law into effect doesn't mean it's a cultural view shared by all. So though I had read the part about there being laws in place to protect animals, and I knew that Angelo and Vincent were happily/strictly vegan, I didn't put two and two together that they would view pet owning as slavery. After all- it's not like they exactly agree with the Coalition on most things so hopefully I wasn't wildly off base on this one thing. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Tina wrote: "Hello, I’m new to the group concept on goodreads. So was wondering how your group works? Does everyone try and read the same book? Or just share book ideas & recommendations?"

Hi Tina - welcome! One of the mods can probably explain it better, but every month a theme is chosen by one of our moderators and then following guidelines, we are each allowed to nominate one book and second one book someone else nominated. The top five picks are added to a poll and then we vote on the poll. If you are interested in joining the group reads you can but it isn't required.

This month the group reads are The Invisible Library and The Power. Next month is: Lord of Light and Among Others. Nominations for May are up now: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

The moderators Sarah Anne and Allison have also set up a few reading challenges for us to participate in (in the challenge folder). And there is also a thread where you can post for buddy or group reads of books you would be interested in. It's easier to explore from the desktop version of the site and find all the stuff you might be interested in.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Sarah wrote: "Tina wrote: "Hello, I’m new to the group concept on goodreads. So was wondering how your group works? Does everyone try and read the same book? Or just share book ideas & recommendations?"

Hi Tina..."

Thanks, Sarah! Yeah, Tina, that's about the jist of it :) Here's a link to the "everything you need to know" post that goes into more detail. Feel free to message me if you have questions, or dive in to any of the group reads (or buddy reads), challenges, or just chat with us in "What Else Are You Reading" or whatever sparks your interest in Member's Chat!

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Bringing this back on topic, super excited to read this one! Sounds like there's some good discussion already. I keep checking my email to see if the notification it's waiting for me has arrived yet.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Allison wrote: "Bringing this back on topic, super excited to read this one! Sounds like there's some good discussion already. I keep checking my email to see if the notification it's waiting for me has arrived yet."

I hope you get to join soon! There's not necessarily a lot of diversity related issues to discuss but lots of ethical/moral questions in the book. This is a great choice for discussion.

[Anna]

I finally started last night, but I was so tired I think I have to start from the beginning today. I'm capable of "reading" while being practically asleep, so I doubt my brain absorbed most of what my eyes consumed. What I did absorb I like, I didn't really know much about it going in, so I'm pleasantly surprised so far.

Lots of spoiler tags without mention of which part of the book they're about, so I can't open those before I finish.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

@Anna anything after the initial chapter 22 post is safe to open and part of the same conversation once you’re past 22.

[Anna]

Thanks Sarah, that helps!

[Anna]

I reread the first two chapters, very minor spoiler for chapter 2:

(view spoiler)[I love that they call the 60+ men 'Miss' :D (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Anna wrote: "I reread the first two chapters, very minor spoiler for chapter 2:

[spoilers removed]"

Ha I know! That cracked me up.

[Beth]

I started this yesterday. Had to read the first chapter twice to catch the many background pieces as they flew by. Where I'm at now, it seems like all the main characters and their (evident?) motivations have been introduced. The stage is set for a lot of political wrangling!

[Anna]

I just finished chapter 7, but I think this is first introduced in chapter 3 or so, and isn't really a plot spoiler.

(view spoiler)[On the one hand I'm so happy to see vegans in fiction, I don't think I've seen that before, at least not in this detail. On the other hand, it's somehow even worse to read than the standard meat feasts, since the two characters' disgust is added to my own. I like that it's discussed, and not just the food either, but I could do without all the extra disgust. Despite not loving feeling grossed out, I hope this theme will continue, as well as the other interesting ethical themes going on. (hide spoiler)]

[Kristin B.]

I finished this today and I have some thoughts.

(view spoiler)[This book was so confusing! I think I understood it by the end, but I had so much trouble following all the political machinations. Then, in the end, it all wrapped up in a few pages without a lot of detail. That was odd. For all the set up, the final confrontations all happened behind the scenes.

For as confused as I was, I loved the characters so much. They were all so interesting. The interactions with the different cultural norms were excellently done. I enjoyed the discussion of the different perspectives and the way they allowed us to see all sides. Obviously, oppressing an entire gender is not okay, but with world history, you can see why it made sense.

I can see how Vincent and Michelangelo saw eating meat as terrible, while genetic manipulation was not. In their long standing culture, humans are basically a pest species that needs rigid control. The environment was more valuable than humans.

I have never wanted an illustration in a book more than when they described the sculpture Phoenix Abased. It sounded absolutely stunning. The story of the artist who created it was haunting.

I enjoyed Vincent and Michelangelo's relationship. I never felt like it was the main point of the story, but I could see how deeply they cared for each other. The understated interactions that occurred mostly through significant looks and what wasn't said fit their characters well. The letter at the very end made my heart happy. I know it would have made more sense to the story for Michelangelo to actually become the martyr he had set out to be. But, I just wanted them to have their happy ending. They earned it, damn it!

I think two of my favorite things from the story were the khir and Kii. I still don't completely understand the Dragons and Consent and all that, but Kii was super interesting. I wonder how he's enjoying being on his own.
(hide spoiler)]

Did it drive anyone else crazy that Michelangelo had so many different names that he went by? Michelangelo, Angelo and Kusanagi-Jones. That felt like overkill. For the first few chapters I had to keep reminding myself it was the same person.

Possibly my favorite line from the book:

Any government founded on a political or religious agenda more elaborate than “protect the weak, temper the strong” is doomed to tyranny.

[Anna]

Kristin B. wrote: "Did it drive anyone else crazy that Michelangelo had so many different names that he went by?"

Not really, but I think it's weird that he's called Kusanagi-Jones, but Vincent is Vincent :D

I still have a few chapters left, I'm not sure I can finish today, but I should be able to finally read some spoilers soon.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Kristin B. wrote: "I finished this today and I have some thoughts...”

Agree with everything you said Kristin. I hadn’t thought of (view spoiler)[Vincent and Angelo thinking of themselves of a plague upon the earth. I wish I had seen it earlier in the book, to have a culture that puts the environment and survival of it above even themselves. I loved the khir and the Kii too, with one addition to that list: House! I want me a House! No cleaning. No thinking about storage space. Just House! Give me soap! And BaBam! There it is. Lol. Also, I can think of absolutely nothing I would love more in my life then carpetplant. To get out of your bed every morning and feel grass on your toes... sigh.

As for the ending- I didn’t understand the letter at the end at all! It seemed like there was literally no way for Angelo to escape being a martyr so what happened? Kii just worked quicker than expected? Kii’s whole mission was to destroy the governors right? But what about the Coalition? Isn’t that made up is people? Do those people not make decisions for themselves? Do they just decide not to prosecute a traitor? I am so confused! (hide spoiler)]

[Kristin B.]

Sarah wrote: "Kristin B. wrote: "I finished this today and I have some thoughts...”

Agree with everything you said Kristin. I hadn’t thought of ..."

(view spoiler)[I think the letter is basically saying everything fell apart before they even got to the trial for him. Kii destroyed the Governors, and it was the Governors who would have Assessed him. I'm sure the Coalition wasn't thrilled with him, but really the Coalition was just there to maintain enough rule so the Governors didn't have to step in. Without the threat of the Governors, the Coalition probably didn't care so much about Angelo. For the first time in generations the threat of disintegration wasn't hanging over everyone's head. "Rome fell" as Angelo writes in his letter. Why waste the bullet when the war is over?

The part of the letter that I wasn't so sure on, was the last line.

All those years, all those worlds, and we were wrong.

I'm not 100% sure what he is saying they were wrong about. Realistically, it could have been any number of things.

Either way, I still love the line about him being introduced to Vincent's mom. They are grown men in their sixties. They were in a relationship for decades while working interstellar intelligence missions for a tyrannical government. But they're still talking about meeting the parents. It tickled me.
(hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Kristin B. wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Kristin B. wrote: "I finished this today and I have some thoughts...”

Agree with everything you said Kristin. I hadn’t thought of ..."

I think ..."

(view spoiler)[That makes sense. Most of Angelo/Vincent’s government structure didn’t make sense to me at all. I know the Governor’s are AI. I think I recall the Assessment being a chip installed in people and would vaporize them if they were “disobedient” somehow.

BUT

Someone still had to carry out their orders, right? Maybe not the vaporization but mission assignments, objectives, things like that. So why, with the Governors being shut down, would the people just stop caring? We have this culture that’s so clearly ingrained in these people, genetic modification, controlling people’s sexual and reproductive lives, veganism, protection of resources, renewable energies, etc. but the Governors shut down and suddenly everyone just goes home for the day? They give up? They quit? That’s it, let’s pack up shop? I mean- if everyone really felt that way how had the Governors survived this long... why not just unplug them?

Sorry, I know I’m being nit picky, I just wish for me personally I hadn’t read the epilogue. It seemed to unwrite so much of the work and the politics that were laid out for the story.

One of my favorite Stephen King quotes is: “Kill your darlings.” I was far more attached to Angelo than to Vincent, but I think this is one of the few times where an MCs death would have made a “better” ending (or at least a more powerful one).” (hide spoiler)]

[Kristin B.]

Sarah wrote: "Kristin B. wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Kristin B. wrote: "I finished this today and I have some thoughts...”

Agree with everything you said Kristin. I hadn’t thought of ..."

I think ..."

That makes se..."

(view spoiler)[I definitely agree it would have been more powerful if Angelo had died as he had intended to. Only the romantic part of me was happy that he got to go back to Vincent.

There is definitely not a lot fully explained about the Governors. From what I can tell, I don't think humans were able to shut them down. The creators of the Governors were the first to be Assessed. The ability to Assess a person seems somehow ingrained in the tech that everyone has embedded in them. At one point Lesa mentions this when she is talking with Angelo about the wardrobes. So I don't know that the Coalition were always the ones to carry out a verdict.

They needed Kii to take them down because he was transcendent and could get at the Governors in a way that humans couldn't.

I think that Angelo escaping comes down to "cut off the head and the body flounders." The sudden vacuum left after the Governors are gone must have been really confusing. And I have to imagine not everyone agreed with the process. Much the way not every German during WWII agreed with Hitler. But fear is a great motivator. Plenty of people would have followed along with the Coalition just to avoid the wrath of the Governors. They may also all believe in veganism and environmentalism, without necessarily thinking that human culling is okay. It's entirely possible a wayward guard let him slip out in the chaotic aftermath.

He does say in the letter that he's "coming the long way around" which could mean that he is still a fugitive trying to escape notice.
(hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Kristin B. wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Kristin B. wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Kristin B. wrote: "I finished this today and I have some thoughts...”

Agree with everything you said Kristin. I hadn’t thought of ..."

I think ..."
..."

(view spoiler)[ I can agree on the romance part! Lol. It definitely made for the more romantic ending. I’m not a totally heartless SOB so I can admit that part of me was happy to read the note at the end. It was definitely cute.

As for the rest of it- I think this is a book that would require a second read for me to pick everything up. I haven’t been this confused about the mechanics of the world building since TLtL. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

I finished, but I'm still gathering my thoughts.

(view spoiler)[I was slightly worried in the beginning that the vegan thing would turn out not so positively, but I tried to stay optimistic until it seemed obvious it wouldn't. I don't really like how veganism was compared to the opposite views on gender. It should be clear to everyone that gender equality is the way to go, so both sides were equally wrong. With veganism however, I don't like that it's made out to be a similar issue, because it's not. Of course there's the matter of humans vs. the environment, which was sort of part of the bundle, but it still annoyed me. I would've loved to see a positive portrayal of veganism, instead of it being the end result of tyrannical AIs let loose on humanity by terrorists.

I think there were too many things thrown into the mix, I would've been happy to see the focus on fewer issues. But I ended up liking it anyway, I'm still not sure if I'm going to round my 3.5 star rating to 3 or 4 stars on GR, but it's 4 for now. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Anna wrote: "I finished, but I'm still gathering my thoughts.

I was slightly worried in the beginning that the vegan thing would turn out not so positively, but I tried to stay optimistic until it seemed obvio..."

Thanks for chiming in regarding the veganism issue Anna! (view spoiler)[I respect everyone’s views of course and I think Liz had some interesting and helpful insight, but it was very hard for me to grasp because as you said I don’t think they are equal issues. I didn’t think it was overly negative. It got me thinking about veganism in a new light anyway so that’s a positive aspect. But I agree that the exchange between Lesa and Angelo didn’t put it in the most positive light. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

(view spoiler)[Sarah wrote: "I didn’t think it was overly negative."

It wasn't, but I'd have loved to see it in a more positive light. It's so stereotypical to lump it in with the ecoterrorists. But I'm glad it was there, because although many scifi books mention in passing that humans no longer eat meat, it was opened up a bit more here. Pros and cons I guess.

edit: Also, ecoterrorism in itself, gah. Why would these two positive things have to come out of or result in terrorism?! It would've been too black and white if the other side was purely evil, but the combination of veganism/environmentalism and terrorism is just so old. (hide spoiler)]