Series: Tensorate by JY Yang ("The Black Tides of Heaven")

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

This is the pick from our Inclusive Book Bingo for February's Queer Author/Protagonist square.

You don't have to be playing in order to join in the buddy read! Please use spoiler tags and use chapter headings/other markers so that people can follow along and comment without fear of ruining the book.

[Donald]

I found this really intriguing. It's one of those books where I quite enjoyed the fairly straight-forward story but the surrounding world where (view spoiler)[the author worked through the personal implications of choosing gender as well as its impact on those close to the person added a dimension that wasn't otherwise there. (hide spoiler)]

I'm not sure whether this is really a spoiler given it's outside the scope of the book but (view spoiler)[it's worth noting the writing of the book was how the author discovered they were non-binary and spurred their coming out as IMO it adds extra context to the novella (hide spoiler)].

[Travis]

I also loved the surrounding world. I just wanted more of it! I really hope Yang moves onto a longer novel next, because I would love to see what they do with a bit more room to breathe and explore.

[Anna]

I was going to read these twin novellas in February with everyone else, and finally make a proper attempt at discussing while reading. Then the nomination deadline for BooktubeSFF Awards was announced, and I had to read them to know if I wanted to nominate them.

I read both back to back, and in my opinion Black Tides should definitely be read first. Everyone keeps saying they're standalones and can be read in any order. Sure, you can read them like that, but I wouldn't recommend it.

My first revelation was that the protagonists of the twin novellas are (view spoiler)[twins! (hide spoiler)] That's not a spoiler if you've read the blurb :D That made me so excited, I thought there'd be (view spoiler)[a theme of duality, opposites, sameness, twinness, etc. (hide spoiler)] And it did start to seem that way and it was even mentioned by one of the characters at some point. I loved that aspect.

Unfortunately it didn't carry on into the second novella, unless (view spoiler)[the fact that it's a completely different thing altogether plays into the twin aspect, like two different sides of the coin. (hide spoiler)]

None of the previous spoilers are for plot, I've hidden them because I personally like to go into things knowing as little as possible, so wouldn't want to spoil someone else's reading experience.

However this is very much spoilery for Black Tides, so I'll put the whole thing in spoiler tags:

(view spoiler)[I loved that it was completely normal to just be a person until you yourself decided to pick a gender. There was very little explained, but Akeha's comment to/about Mokoya made it clear that the usual way would be to try out a gender for some time before confirming it. As for what confirming actually means, I'd kind of like to know more, but it's not essential, so I'm fine with not knowing, too. There were some teasery comments which made me wonder what it actually is or what actually happens, but not enough to be sure. Like Akeha complaining about his hips aching after confirmation surgery. Or Yongcheow uncomfortably saying that he didn't actually go to the doctors when he was getting undressed in front of Akeha for the first time. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Donald wrote: "(view spoiler)[the writing of the book was how the author discovered they were non-binary and spurred their coming out (hide spoiler)]"

I did not know that!

[Rachel]

Oh I want to read this but am already so behind on my reading!!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Rachel wrote: "Oh I want to read this but am already so behind on my reading!!"

It's very short. And you have a month... :D

[Anna]

Yes it was a quick read. Depends on preferences obviously, but to me it felt like an actual novella, instead of the 220-ish pages.

[Donald]

Anna wrote: "I was going to read these twin novellas in February with everyone else, and finally make a proper attempt at discussing while reading. Then the nomination deadline for BooktubeSFF Awards was announ..."

Discussion of spoiler tagged material ahead...

(view spoiler)[I came away from Black Tides with the following impression:
1) as they grow up they start as non-gender-determined.
2) at some age (though not always) they feel that they start to lean towards one gender.
3) when they want to commit to that gender they are "confirmed".
4) this usually includes some form of gender assignment surgery.

And "two sides of the same coin" is exactly how I viewed the twins, beginning with Akeha's adverse reaction to Mokoya's choice of gender resulting in him picking the opposite gender almost out of anger or spite. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

All these positive comments made me start this up today. I love it. Very enchanting and well told so far.

[Anna]

Donald wrote: "(view spoiler)[1) as they grow up they start as non-gender-determined.
2) at some age (though not always) they feel that they start to lean towards one gender.
3) when they want to commit to that gender they are "confirmed".
4) this usually includes some form of gender assignment surgery. (hide spoiler)]"

(view spoiler)[What I feel is deliberately left unsaid is if they are born one gender, or if they're truly born ungendered/genderless. They take hormones and have surgery after they're confirmed, but is that just to start the gendering process, or to alter the birth gender? I don't mind at all that it's not explained, but I thought it was an interesting idea if they are truly genderless. What does that mean exactly? Is everyone born with the same set of chromosomes?

So with Yongcheow, did he have a genderless body he was ashamed of, or did he have a female body? Either way, it didnt matter to Akeha, so it's not relevant, but it was interesting that it was left so vague. It kind of emphasizes the point that we don't need to know what kind of stuff our fellow humans are sporting between their legs :) (hide spoiler)]

Donald wrote: "(view spoiler)[And "two sides of the same coin" is exactly how I viewed the twins, beginning with Akeha's adverse reaction to Mokoya's choice of gender resulting in him picking the opposite gender almost out of anger or spite. (hide spoiler)]"

(view spoiler)[Yes, that's exactly how I thought Black Tides was. What I meant was that I was expecting Red Threads to continue in the same vein, but it was completely different. So the only way I can make it fit the theme is that the twin novellas are like Akeha and Mokoya themselves, choosing completely different paths, or in the case of novellas, styles. Also, I felt that Akeha didn't choose his gender purely out of spite, it seemed to me that he actually felt it fit him.

This is nitpicking, but in the beginning when the twins were still in the monastery, if I'd had to pick genders for the twins, I'd have said that Akeha was a girl and Mokoya a boy. That's just a gut feeling. Then when Mokoya started having crying fits and Akeha was seemingly badass, I was disappointed that it went the other way. Fortunately Mokoya is also a badass, but in the beginning it didn't seem that way. (hide spoiler)]

[Donald]

(view spoiler)[
The way I imagined it was a genderless child, hence the need for surgical/medical intervention after committal. Part of the reason for that thinking is because we're seeing twins which end up as different genders, but there's no reference to one of them not requiring that intervention. Yes, they could be fraternal but that is rare in any novel. It was also consistent enough with the story, as well as Yongcheow being a male in a genderless body. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

I am also curious about (view spoiler)[If they are born with a sexless body. Oddly- I came away with a different impression. I actually kind of think it felt like all people were born female. I don’t actually have any proof of this from the text of the story. But it was just a feeling I got. It seems to be a matriarchal society. The fact that Akeha chose to be male and he is the only son of the Mother. The way she looks down on him. The way he sort of assumed if Mokoya was female he was also going to choose female, but then tried the male pronoun and was surprised that it felt right.

Youngcheow also asks if Akeha wants children. Adoption could have been why he was referring to. Or some sort of magical conception similar to how Akeha himself was conceived. But I sort of wondered if he wasn’t hinting that it was possible because he’d never actually been confirmed?

I know this sort of sounds crazy and the sexless bodies makes more sense in the context of the novel, but it was just a thought. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

(view spoiler)[Since it’s from Akeha’s point of view it’s possible that Mokoya also needed hormones and/or surgery. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but Akeha did mention his hips aching because of the surgery. I’d understand a genderless childlike frame needing surgery to acquire childbearing hips, but why would a man need that unless it was because he had a female body? Their mother also found it surprising that he chose to be male, although that could just be because all her other children had confirmed as female. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Anna wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[That’s true! I’ve also crafted this theory on an incredibly small sample size of characters. Perhaps the Mother and her line only gives birth to the female sex? This actually might make sense given we know the twins were conceived with some help through the Slack. Assuming we are being totally scientific because the Slack is a real thing, there would be no Y chromosome to contribute. But the rest of this fantasy world people are born naturally as either sex and choose their genders later? I know it doesn’t matter ultimately but it’s interesting to see everyone’s take.

What did constantly nag at me in the beginning is the English language’s lack of an adequate pronoun for someone who identifies as queer. This could just be me, but when I read they, their, them I think of the plural usage. Given that they are twins and both usages (the plural and non gender indentifier) were frequently used, I have to wonder if the author isn’t pointing this out to us? Are there languages that do use adequate pronouns? (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Sarah wrote: "(view spoiler)[Youngcheow also asks if Akeha wants children. Adoption could have been why he was referring to. Or some sort of magical conception similar to how Akeha himself was conceived. But I sort of wondered if he wasn’t hinting that it was possible because he’d never actually been confirmed? (hide spoiler)]"

(view spoiler)[I missed this comment earlier. Yes, I forgot to mention that, but I was thinking the same thing. That just added to the feeling that Yongcheow might have a female body. (hide spoiler)]

Sarah wrote: "(view spoiler)[This actually might make sense given we know the twins were conceived with some help through the Slack. Assuming we are being totally scientific because the Slack is a real thing, there would be no Y chromosome to contribute. (hide spoiler)]"

Ooh, that's a great point!

Sarah wrote: "(view spoiler)[What did constantly nag at me in the beginning is the English language’s lack of an adequate pronoun for someone who identifies as queer. This could just be me, but when I read they, their, them I think of the plural usage. Given that they are twins and both usages (the plural and non gender indentifier) were frequently used, I have to wonder if the author isn’t pointing this out to us? Are there languages that do use adequate pronouns? (hide spoiler)]"

(view spoiler)[I don't mind using 'they', it's no less logical than 'you' in English :D But I do have to say that it's so much easier in Finnish. We have a completely gender neutral pronoun 'hän', which is the person equivalent of 'it'. Finnish is not the only gender neutral language. (hide spoiler)]

Also: (view spoiler)[I'm sorry I keep using the word gender to mean sex, I know they're not the same thing. I'm not going to go through all my posts to correct that, but I'll try to be better about this in the future. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Anna wrote:"[spoilers removed]

Also: [spoilers removed]"

Ahh thanks for sharing about Finnish! I knew there had to be some out there that had them, but you’re right, about you and they. I guess I’ll need to rewire my brain a bit to accommodate for this, but now that you’ve made this comparison it makes a lot of sense.

(view spoiler)[No worries! I was just trying to be distinct about parts of the body vs gender of the person to avoid confusion. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I can't stand this! I am joining in today. Damn you, blue spoiler tags!

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Haha! The good news is you can read it in a few hours (it really doesn’t feel like 240 pages at all).

[Anna]

(view spoiler)[Sarah wrote: "No worries! I was just trying to be distinct about parts of the body vs gender of the person to avoid confusion."

Yes I understand, I kept thinking while posting that I shouldn't use 'gender', but in my defense, I was posting between 2AM and 6AM :D This is also one of those things where I know the difference, but the words just don't feel right to me. It's a foreign language thing and doesn't make any sense even to me. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Allison, it's your own fault for starting the thread early! :D

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Anna wrote: "Allison, it's your own fault for starting the thread early! :D"

I know, I do this to myself! But do you all have to like the book so much? lolol

But don't let me stop you, please carry on tormenting me with your secrets. =P

[Donald]

Interesting out of world thought (also taking some of the conversation out of spoiler tags, since I'm limiting myself to something that's discussed in the first handful of pages) - I wonder if there's a predisposition of thinking the initial state of being in this world is neutral versus female by gender of the reader.

Since they obviously are not born male, on one hand familiarity helps facilitate one assumption, whereas (speaking on behalf of all men, so excuse me while I go tap-dancing into a minefield) the concept of growing up as female versus growing up as neutral are both largely alien so we're more likely to assume the completely foreign concept.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Donald wrote: "Interesting out of world thought (also taking some of the conversation out of spoiler tags, since I'm limiting myself to something that's discussed in the first handful of pages) - I wonder if ther..."

I wasn’t meaning to dismiss this theory entirely. I agree that it is (view spoiler)[entirely possible they are born neutral, and will concede your point that being female myself might be the acting inspiration for my own theory. I was just pointing out that of the characters we are introduced to they all seemed to be born not male. As I think Anna mentioned, it would be odd that they would need to slender the hips of someone who was neutral or not female. We know at a bare minimum, Youngcheow is not male which means he is also either female or neutral. But we weren’t given the confirmation stories of Myoko or Thennjay so my theory is based on two characters which really makes it sort of meaningless. Also- I think Moko says at some point that no one remains unconfirmed, which, in my own head, I would have found a little strange if that was the way people were truly born. Again, just the feeling I got and not based on anything other than my own perception. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

I’m personally very sensitive to anything that will change how I read/interpret a book, so I think all of this should be in spoiler tags.

(view spoiler)[I didn't get the feeling that it's impossible to be born male. It's just that we only got to hear about two people, and neither of them was born male. I was hoping to hear more about Mokoya's confirmation in Red Threads, but unfortunately that didn't happen.

My strongest impression is that they are born like we are, but the society doesn't want to push gender roles onto the children. Instead they get to choose when they feel ready, and if necessary they go to the doctors. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Anna wrote: "I’m personally very sensitive to anything that will change how I read/interpret a book, so I think all of this should be in spoiler tags.

I didn't get the feeling that it's impossible to be born m..."

Sorry! Realized I might have said more than I meant to in that post. Moved the spoiler tag.

[Donald]

Quoting a spoiler section from Sarah, and replying with spoilers from Red Threads so double spoilers! Beware!

(view spoiler)[Sarah wrote: "I think Moko says at some point that no one remains unconfirmed, which, in my own head, I would have found a little strange if that was the way people were truly born."

I can't guarantee I read Red Threads as thoroughly as I should have but Rider was referred to as "they" throughout, which I took to mean uncommitted, but definitely felt like a female character. I'm not sure which hypothesis this leans towards though... I was thinking the "no initial gender", but "feels" suggests maybe not.
(hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Spoilers for Red Threads:

(view spoiler)[Donald wrote: "Rider was referred to as "they" throughout, which I took to mean uncommitted, but definitely felt like a female character"

I was going to mention this in my previous post, but I wasn't sure who had read it. Rider considered themselves non-binary, but some other people referred to them as female. I thought this meant that either they had originally confirmed as female but changed their mind, or they were born female but decided not to confirm at all.

In Black Tides the twins discussed having a pact never to confirm, so I guess it's possible to remain whatever it is you're born as and not confirm.
(hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Sarah wrote: "Sorry! Realized I might have said more than I meant to in that post."

I may be too careful, just because I personally want to go in knowing as little as possible.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Donald wrote: "Quoting a spoiler section from Sarah, and replying with spoilers from Red Threads so double spoilers! Beware!

Sarah wrote: "I think Moko says at some point that no one remains unconfirmed, which, ..."

Interesting! Perhaps she just meant it to mean (view spoiler)[Akeha should grow up a little bit. An exaggeration of sorts and not literal. (hide spoiler)]

Anna wrote: "Spoilers for Red Threads:

(view spoiler)[Donald wrote: "Rider was referred to as "they" throughout, which I took to mean uncommitted, but definitely felt like a female character" (hide spoiler)]

I was going to mention this in ..."

I haven't read Red Threads yet. I guess I'lll have to hop to see what I think!

[Jordan]

I just started reading Black Tides last night. Only got through the first three chapters, I think, but I'm intrigued so far. I had to slow down reading it at times to figure out whether "they" was just one of the twins or both of them.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Jordan wrote: "I just started reading Black Tides last night. Only got through the first three chapters, I think, but I'm intrigued so far. I had to slow down reading it at times to figure out whether "they" was ..."

The singular "they" can take some getting used to. :) I was impressed though with the strong framing Yang employed to help us through that. It made me realize how heavily we rely on gender and switching pronouns to tell a story. Sorry if I'm repeating what was said above, I haven't trusted any spoiler tags yet as they all seem to be of the "finished the book" variety.

[Ashley in Wonderland]

I haven’t been following the Bingo thread, but this looks good! I may have to join in.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Ashley wrote: "I haven’t been following the Bingo thread, but this looks good! I may have to join in."

I hope you do! It's pretty quick, but I'm only about 4 chapters in. So far it's just lovely.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I am really enjoying this! It's taking me longer to read than I want, but because of me, not because of it. I am getting a very Seirei no Moribito feel from it, plus so much more queer identity and a little cool magic system.

[Meredith]

I read this back in December, so I wasn't particularly focussed on the gender-related aspects. I have appreciated everyone's perspectives and this interesting discussion.

One thing I found interesting is (view spoiler)[ that one can declare gender choice at any age and it is all fine. There's no "too young to decide" or "why haven't you chosen yet, you're so old." There are a couple references to children who declare their gender at about age three, and it is treated as unremarkable. (hide spoiler)]

Related to discussion above. (view spoiler)[When I was reading, I assumed that everyone was born genderless (i.e. being genderless is the default), since it is choice to become either male or female. Both are a choice away from the genderless stage of life. (hide spoiler)]

Regarding Yongcheow, (spoilers for Year 29, specific spoilers for chapters, 13 and 15) (view spoiler)[ Yongcheow has chosen male and identifies as male (and others recognize him as male). However, he chose not to see doctors for the confirmation process. I think he might reflect that even in a world with a 'binary" choice of male or female, there's more than one way to do things. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Aaah so many great thoughts in this thread, I'm so glad I can read them now. Sorry, I'd love to respond to a lot of your thoughts specifically, but I think that would take a lot of effort. So, all my thoughts are in the spoiler.

(view spoiler)[I totally saw Akeha as more masculine and Mokoya as more feminine from the beginning. As far as "how they are born" I thought it was probably like any other humans, where some have sex organs most commonly associated male or female, neither or both, but that it's just completely irrelevant to assigning gender, right from the start. And it is kind of icky, the more comfortable I get with gender theory, to think that we announce genitalia of our children to the world, and use that to shape their lives.

At some point, there's a quick line about how Slack was used to keep off the body's natural changes. So, in my head we don't know what all is in whose pants, really, but I assumed that puberty was postponed until/if the person chose a presentation, as going through male puberty or female puberty can have natural changes to body shape and genital formation without the need for too many additional surgeries and such.

So, this book explores sex, gender, and presentation, all as separate from each other, and I LOVED that. A really excellent way to talk about coming out, and how boy means boy and girl means girl no matter what your body looks like. It's possible everyone's born female, but I assume that's not quite the case as it sounded like Yongcheow and Akeha might have been able to conceive naturally given their bodies.

We know Yongcheow wore compression bandages, which seems to indicate he was born with a body that produced more estrogen, at least, which tends to attach more readily to some sort of XX formation assuming Slack is just used to help with conception or delaying hormone uptake, rather than a magical fertilizer or ovum, (which again, I assume as the Protector stayed out of the public eye while she bore the twins, presumably?) then someone would have had to provide the genetic material, likely. Possibly the head of the Machinists?

Re: they, it does take a lot of time to readjust your brain for that. But I promise it gets easier!! The more you see it, the more you use it, the easier it becomes to follow stories with singular they. I did find it easier when xe/xir were more common, but I had zero skin in that battle, so I'm content to follow the lead of those who feel best as "they." The thing I can't seem to stop saying is "you guys." I cannot break that one in speech. I do try extremely hard in writing never to do that. (hide spoiler)]

PS also, that's a great factoid about the novella!! I'm so happy for them that they were able to learn about themself and explore it so beautifully with us.

[Beth]

Jordan wrote: "I just started reading Black Tides last night. Only got through the first three chapters, I think, but I'm intrigued so far. I had to slow down reading it at times to figure out whether "they" was ..."

I was going to come to the thead to say something similar. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that (view spoiler)[until Mokoya decides to go through with their confirmation, "they" can be used to refer to Mokoya, Akeha, or the two together in any given scene where they are both present. Note that I am a full proponent of the use of "they" in this novel's context and in the real world! :) (hide spoiler)]

I'm close to halfway done and am really enjoying the imagery. More when I finish up!

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Allison wrote: "Aaah so many great thoughts in this thread, I'm so glad I can read them now. Sorry, I'd love to respond to a lot of your thoughts specifically, but I think that would take a lot of effort. So, all ..."

Allison, your points about presentation posed an interesting question for me, but really: (view spoiler)[ what is the purpose of gender in society? Is it only about identity? Does it have to be labeled? Why do we feel compelled to slot our children into these neat little boxes? Ugh- I am not fit to be a mother. Lol (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Sarah wrote: "Allison wrote: "Aaah so many great thoughts in this thread, I'm so glad I can read them now. Sorry, I'd love to respond to a lot of your thoughts specifically, but I think that would take a lot of ..."

LOL! I sure don't have the answer. I know it's hardwired somewhere, because trans people could totally just change their presentation and live wherever they're comfortable on the femme/masc continuum, and yet it's important enough to confirm their gender that they've fought the law for hundreds of years. Similarly, I also know that while I'm fine if people call me "they", if I know them any longer than an hour or so I'm likely to assert that my pronouns are she/her and that I prefer to be referred to in the feminine. I lose nothing of who I am if I'm "they" or any other pronoun, but something feels lost to me if the context of my living as a woman is removed.

I think a lot of it *is* the associations of our "boxes" of not just who we are/what we might be expected to do as a member of our society, but also of where we come from and things that are more likely to be something that we need to account for. It's a bad proxy, but knowing how someone was socialized/the gender they absorb is something our lizard brains and the snap decisions we make regarding things like attraction, safety, and social positions seems to want.

ETA sorry for all the edits, I'm moving quickly and disliked some of the assumptions unconsciously read into my original text.

[Anna]

I've physically levered myself out of bed, but I don't think my brain is quite awake yet. So apologies in advance if I make no sense at all.

Once again I'm starting with the fact the Finnish language has ungendered pronouns. I don't find it weird when someone calls me 'she', because I learned English at a young age, and it seems normal. But I can't imagine it feeling wrong to be called something that doesn't emphasize your gender. Both ways have upsides and downsides.

For instance, if someone is telling me about a third person, and I need to meet this person, I'd like to be able to tell if they're a woman or a man without having to ask. Just to make it easier to look for and find this person, the same way I'd tell them things like 'I'm wearing a fluffy black scarf and I'll be sitting reading in this or that location'. This is usually something I can tell by the person's name. Of course there are those who have been named something I've never heard, and thus can't know. Also ungendered names have been somewhat popular at times.

On the other hand, in Finnish we don't have to worry about offending someone by using the wrong pronouns, since there's only one for everyone. I prefer this in real life, but sometimes in books it's nice to have gendered pronouns, because it helps to keep track of who's speaking etc. And it's what I'm used to when reading in English.

Despite not having gendered pronouns, we still have gender roles. People seeing a new baby will immediately ask 'is he/she a girl or a boy?' or they will say things like 'what a clever girl' and 'such a lively boy'. They could just as well say 'child' instead of girl or boy. They will always bring a pink sparkly pony to a girl's birthday party, and legos or cars to a boy's. When the girl in question is into Spiderman and model trains, she'll probably feel weird opening that present.

I can't even remember what I was trying to say, so I'll stop now. Maybe I'll get back to this when I'm properly awake.

edit: Why do I always notice typos after someone's quoted me?!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Anna wrote: "I've physically levered myself out of bed, but I don't think my brain is quite awake yet. So apologies in advance if I make no sense at all.

Once again I'm starting with the fact the Finnish has u..."

This is a fascinating, insightful, and also adorable post.

[Travis]

Anna wrote: " the Finnish language has ungendered pronouns."

I think the translation questions when it comes to gender, gender difference, gender expression, and gender identity are so crucial. Plus the ways that language and identity work with and against each other. Ada Palmer had a fascinating tweet just today on these lines about the difficulty of translating Too Like the Lightning into Polish. All to say: I really enjoy your observations. Thanks!

[Anna]

I'll once again mention the Tea and Jeopardy episode where Emma Newman is talking to Ken Liu about translating from Chinese to English and vice versa. It was really interesting, although not specifically about gender issues. There were several panels at Worldcon last year about translation, but I didn't make it to any of them. None of them were filmed either, or if they were they're not on their YouTube channel. I'm by no means a language expert, but I always find these things fascinating.

Anyway, I guess I'll have to find something to read about gender in translation. Especially in cases where it's not all black and white, or the author doesn't want to reveal a character's gender, I'd like to know how that's handled in gendered languages. It's super easy to hide gender in Finnish, but in English you can't refer to them with pronouns, or you have to make a point of using a gender neutral pronoun, which in itself is a clue to pay attention to gender.

Once again I've lost my train of thought, today isn't the best for brain activity. I've only slept a few hours, because someone rudely woke me up only two hours after I finally fell asleep. They rang my doorbell super loud, and when I stumbled to the door there was no one outside. My neighbor's door was open, and I tried calling out to see if someone was there, but no one answered so I closed the door and went back to bed. Not to sleep though, so I'm super tired.

edit to add: Oh, something kind of interesting. In the Moomin books there's this character called The Groke. I just found out last year that she is female. I've been reading and watching Moomins since I was born, and I can't remember ever thinking of this character as either male or female, just as 'Mörkö' which is Finnish for boogeyman. But in Swedish, which is the language the books were written in, she is referred to with the female pronoun, so it's obvious she is female. So weird!

edit2: I guess that means 'Mörkö' is a boogiewoman :D

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Travis wrote: "Anna wrote: " the Finnish language has ungendered pronouns."

I think the translation questions when it comes to gender, gender difference, gender expression, and gender identity are so crucial. Pl..."

I saw that tweet and also thought it was really interesting! I also have to wonder how such a book would be received in cultures that have/use gender neutral pronouns? Not that these cultures have neutralized gender in any way but I wonder if the ideas presented about gender would maybe not be as radical to them?

Is it terrible that after all this all I really want to do is go read TLtL again? My mind is boggled for the day. The cake is a lie. The sky is falling. I don’t know which way is up or down. It’s amazing how much of our lives are socially constructed when you really start to think about it. Like taking running water for granted when there are still plenty of developing nations out there without it.

Sorry. I’m not crazy, just tired.

[Anna]

I'm kind of amazed that I didn't even think about that while reading TLTL. The translation business I mean. It's probably because the writing style was otherwise hard for me, so I was concentrating on that. But it'll be interesting to pay attention to this if and when I continue with the last two books.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

I don’t want to detract from the discussion of this book too much, but I plan to re-read them anyway when the fourth book comes out. If I can squeeze in some more books similar to The Black Tides of Heaven before then, I think it will give me some interesting new perspectives on TLTL.

Anna I’m guessing you read it in English? I think it would have been hard to notice because Mycroft was inconsistent. He’d remind the reader that everyone was supposed to be “they,” but then say things like: It would have been wrong to call “him” anything but “her.” Basically using all three pronouns to describe a single person.

[Anna]

Yes I read it in English. I'm surpised I had no thoughts about it, because I'm usually always commenting on cases where it makes a difference if the language has gendered pronouns or not. But with TLTL I had to switch to audio because it was so tedious to read, so I guess a lot of my concentration went into other things. Considering how hard it was and how much I wanted to one star it, I loved the plot, so I'm also considering listening to the first two books again and then picking up the rest. It'll depend on who narrates the last two though, because I really liked the TLTL audio, but the SS audio wasn't as good with a different narrator.

[Beth]

Sarah wrote: "It’s amazing how much of our lives are socially constructed when you really start to think about it."

Absolutely. Black Tides and the discussions here have spurred some thinky-thought journeys about what our society, or myself, would be like if we weren't told to keep in our gender lanes 24/7 from infancy onward. Would I have chosen to be a woman, if I lived in this book's world?

In part 2, there are a couple of (view spoiler)[children that Akeha comes across who are quite young--well below our typical adolescence age--who they see as gendered, as a boy and a girl. So is having a choice of gender a cultural or class thing that these children do not have access to? (hide spoiler)] Maybe this will be explained later, since I'm not quite done with part 2.

[Anna]

Beth, that was also mentioned at the end of Black Tides, (view spoiler)[Mokoya's daughter chose to be a girl very young, I think at age three? (hide spoiler)]