Do you Lem? If so, why?

[Joseph]

Rick wrote: "Joseph - IIRC, it also had something to do with book binding technology improving so that publishers could put out large mass market format paperbacks without making the type ridiculously small. Ch..."

Yes, also remarkable advances in bookbinding.

[Trike]

Rick wrote: "Trike - I really like Harry Connolly's "The Way" trilogy which, aside from being a really good story that's well-written, was deliberately written to avoid any and all fantasy tourism. There's no fluff chapters at all, everything moves the story forward. "

I'll have to check it out.

This year I read Bookburners which is quite long but extremely lean. There is a bare minimum of description, with more of a focus on plot.

[Ruth]

Rick wrote: "Joseph - IIRC, it also had something to do with book binding technology improving so that publishers could put out large mass market format paperbacks without making the type ridiculously small. Ch..."

Very interesting blogpost, thanks for sharing the link! The comments were very interesting too.
I wonder how much ebooks have changed the publishing landscape since then. One thing I do remember is a talk by Lee Harris (editor at tor.com) who said that novellas are doing better now because they’re a good length for commuters, and in electronic format they can be priced more competitively.

[Silvana]

Colin wrote: "Follow up question: If you Lem a book do you still give it a rating? I choose not to, but wonder what everyone else thinks."

One star and put it into my DNF folder. I lem it because I did not enjoy it and the book has not given me any reason to continue.

Ruth wrote: "I’ve recently Lemmed (given up reading before reaching the end) several books, while there are a few others I struggled through that I kinda wish I’d Lemmed.

My reasons for Lemming something vary ..."

I lem books if I do not enjoy them by 30% at max. Maybe the story/characters is boring/not engaging or making me angry/frustrated or really too juvenile/YA/misogynistic for me to handle.

[Rick]

Ruth - I love what Tor is doing with novellas. It's a format that works well as an ebook not only because it can be priced well but because I never saw them in bookstores. I assume they were in magazines, serialized but I never really saw them. Now, I actually look for them and I think some great authors are doing work in that length (Bujold's Penric series, Okorafor's Binti novellas).

[Iain]

Joseph wrote: "Phil wrote: "Trike wrote: "Tina wrote: "Something I've noticed is that a lot of recent books seem to be very long - 500+ pgs .."

My own theory is that the increase in average book length increased with the rise of the word processor, which meant that authors no longer had to worry about actually physically typing their entire manuscript multiple times as they made drafts & revisions."

I always believed that it was for two reasons.

1) Publishers do not pay for good editing anymore (i.e. taking the time to tighten a book up)

2) A big book is worth that £15 in hardback. Value for money seems to be a driver.

[Aaron]

Books were shorter back in the day because you didn't have a word processor on a computer that allowed for easy editing. That's in part why giant Tombs like LOTR and Dune were so successful. Because they were giant huge novels that weren't broken up in a serial format.

Manuscripts needed to be typed up then mailed into the publisher which would mark up and send back when you would type it all back in again not just hitting approve changes on word.

Alan wrote: "Colin wrote: "Follow up question: If you Lem a book do you still give it a rating? I choose not to, but wonder what everyone else thinks."
I am trying to follow the following rules (with only parti..."

This is pretty reasonable I have rated a good number of books I didn't finish but I gave all of them a fair shake 40-70% completed and I always disclosed I didn't finish and why.

[Aaron]

Iain wrote: "1) Publishers do not pay for good editing anymore (i.e. taking the time to tighten a book up)"

Please go back and pick a random book from 30 years ago at a used bookstore or an old library up you will find the editing was worse back in the day not better.

Yes super popular superstar authors tend to get velvet gloves from editors which results in poorer products but the average Joe writer I feel does a lot better today than 30-40 years ago.

[Brendan]

I think Aaron's right, and I suspect it's more about companies publishing books to suit reading trends than it is about willingness to pay/not pay for editing.

[Iain]

Brendan wrote: "I think Aaron's right, and I suspect it's more about companies publishing books to suit reading trends than it is about willingness to pay/not pay for editing."

I see a difference between proof-reading (sub editing) and editing.

Yes there are less typos and grammar errors. What I do not see is the tightening of text to remove the cruft.

[Brendan]

I think the readers demand the cruft. They love it.

[John (Taloni)]

^Yep. Lots of "reading tourism" and not just in Fantasy any more. Heck, Peter Hamilton practically invented the plausible utopia. Despite some parts that are overlong to me, I'll show up for a Hamilton book any time.

[RJ - Slayer of Trolls]

I do quit reading books I don't like although it's rare - often I fight through and finish it anyway even though I hate it every step of the way (The Stars Are Legion by Kameron Hurley earlier this year for a group read in a different group). This year I did kick The Rook by Daniel O'Malley for excessive dullness and felony overuse of italics. Last year I kicked Papillon by Henri Charrière due to the author's tremendously oversized ego and the fact that his narrative dragged on endlessly.

I don't use the phrase "Lem" since I've never read anything by Stanislaw Lem and I don't have an opinion about the author. I do think it's funny that Veronica hated one of Lem's books so much that she uses his surname to describe any book she deems unworthy of completion.

[Stephen]

I have never Lemmed. Only the book was taken away by a due date and never renewed. It was out of my control and forced upon me by an uncaring system.

[HeyT]

I tend to be a completionist. It is rare for me to outright lem something but I do take breaks from books. I think I have like three books I've put on pause while I read other stuff that interests me more.

[Robert]

Randy wrote: "I don't use the phrase "Lem" since I've never read anything by Stanislaw Lem and I don't have an opinion about the author. I do think it's funny that Veronica hated one of Lem's books so much that she uses his surname to describe any book she deems unworthy of completion. "

There is a slightly different nuance, that the book must also be beloved or considered great by other readers. I lemmed "Helliconia Spring" but I figuratively threw "Dusty Winds of Impact" forcibly across the room.

I also get the impression that Veronica is somewhat unhappy that she coined this term ...

[David H.]

I prefer "abandon" or "DNF" (did not finish) as terms--it means people will understand what I'm talking about outside of S&L (and within it too, it seems).

[Dara]

Robert wrote: "I lemmed "Helliconia Spring" but I figuratively threw "Dusty Winds of Impact" forcibly across the room."

I literally threw Assassin's Quest across the room after I read the last page. It was cathartic. But Robin Hobb is one of my favorite authors now.

[John (Taloni)]

I didn't Lem, but was sorely disappointed in, the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson. Cardboard cutout characters and then major plot points unresolved at the end. "On Mars, on Mars, on Mars." That's IT? Just giving up on unresolved plot? I tossed it across the room and have not returned to that series. I would say I swore off Kim Stanley Robinson completely, but did go along with the read of his book for S&L recently.

[Aaron]

Iain wrote: "Yes there are less typos and grammar errors. What I do not see is the tightening of text to remove the cruft. "

Developmental and Structural editing are both better now than back in the day too or at least on par. They just may not be editing in the direction that you prefer, the average reader wants a longer book they want better value, they don't want to spend $$$ on a book that is a short and fast read. See submission minimum word counts being higher than most books even were 30-40 years ago.

[Tassie Dave, S&L Historian]

Would you believe it is 9 years this week that Veronica unwittingly helped coin the term "to Lem", to describe not finishing a book.

Wow, Tempus fugit.

http://swordandlaser.com/home/2009/1/...

BTW S&L Podcast is coming up to it's 10 year anniversary on February 4th.

http://swordandlaser.com/home/2008/2/...

[Miranda]

I Lemmed Indigo by Charlaine Harris, Seannan McGuire ect ect.

First time Lem!
I usually need to know the ending so will suffer through books I'm not enjoying to get there.
I couldn't get throuhh Indigo at at all... I still want somone to tell me how it ends though.

[Trike]

Miranda wrote: "I couldn't get throuhh Indigo at at all... I still want somone to tell me how it ends though. "

Read the last page. Or the wiki summary.

A lot of professional book reviewers have a hard 50-page rule: if you’re not into it at the bottom of page 50, set it aside and read something else.

Reviewer/librarian Nancy Pearl has an amended version of that: subtract your age from 100 and that’s the number of pages you should give a book before you make the go/no-go decision.

So for me that would be 48 pages. For my mom, it would be 20 pages. For my dad, it would be a miracle, because he hasn’t read a book since he was in college in the 1950s.

[Silvana]

That last sentence cracked me up!

Anyway, pages as guidance does not work for me since I often read short stories/novelettes. Percentage works best. I used to say I apply 30% rule but nowadays it has become 20%. Too many good books out there!

[Phil]

I always say in my head that I'll give it at least 10% but the rare times I lem I've waited till around 50% because I always hope it will get better.
The only ones I recall lemming in the last 20 or 30 years are 1Q84, Atlas Shrugged, and The Illuminatus! Trilogy.

[Jessica]

I almost never lem a book. In fact, I only remember doing it once, to a romance novel I read back in high school, many many moons ago. (A friend of mine lent me approximately one million romances over the course of a couple of years, but that one I just found to be so incredibly boring, I couldn't force myself to go on. Now I can't even recall the name of that one.)

Right now I have a DNF shelf, but the only things listed there are ebook trilogies, where all three books came together. In one case I read the first book, but had no desire to continue past that. As far as the Chaos Walking trilogy, I really enjoyed the first book, but then the second bored me to tears, so I stopped there.

[Dara]

Quit More Books via Lifehacker. Interesting short take on quitting books. I'm a big quitter. I quit all the time and I feel pretty good about it, haha.

"If you wish you could read more books, try quitting the one you’re on. If it’s not calling to you every minute that you’re away, maybe you should drop it and find a book that does. In fact, whenever a book bores you for two (or five, or ten) pages in a row, quit it. Move on. If you end up wondering what happened next, you can always come back."

[Brendan]

"Whenever a book bores you for two pages in a row, quit it," sounds like absolutely terrible advice.

[Dara]

I agree that two pages is extreme. If you don’t look forward to picking up a book, I’d say to drop it.

[Soo]

In my head, I womdered if this thread was about reading a book because it is popular (bestseller/classic/awards/friends) and you follow along (like a lemming) to read. LoL~ In that case, I do sometimes but not in any consistent manner.

I prefer DNF/incomplete. No matter how much I read, I am never going to read every book/article that catches my interest. The completist side grumbles a lot but I will stop reading for a variety of reasons. Currently on a break from reviewing (ARC/Author Requests) because I have different standards for that and will suffer to a point to write a complete review. Otherwise, I tend to enjoy the stories I read. Bad writing is a hard line for me. If a book makes me go into "editing/proofreader" mode, that is usually a sign that the book will get a low rating and I may not finish.

[Robin]

I like the idea of a Did Not Finish shelf. I might set that up.

I have stopped reading a few books because I didn't like where the story was going, or because I couldn't get into it.

I've started Winter's Tale twice and just can't get too far into it.

[Cole]

Brendan wrote: ""Whenever a book bores you for two pages in a row, quit it," sounds like absolutely terrible advice."

Agreed! I had to start Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds two or three times before I stuck with it. I knew it was supposed to be a good book and wanted to read it, but had a hard time getting into it. Now Reynolds is my favorite sf author.

There are books that are good to read even if they aren't page turners. I'm glad that I read books like Don Quixote, The Count of Monte Christo, and The Odyssey even if they weren't always easy to get through. I'm not saying that people should never quit books, (I just quit reading The Reality Dysfunction at 89% and probably should have quit sooner) but dropping every book that isn't, "calling to you every minute that you’re away" seems a bit juvenile.

[Sweta]

I'll sometimes put a book on hold and come back to it later. If I do this too many times, that's usually when I lem. I'm less likely to lem an audiobook because I have a lot of listening time at work and therefore many hours that I have to fill with SOMETHING, whereas my time to read a "print" book is far more limited. And I think I just read each medium differently -- listening to audiobooks is sometimes a little more like skimming.

There are many books I'm glad I powered through to the end, but then there are some books that I wished I hadn't wasted my time reading. 1Q84 is one of them -- I stuck it out because Murakami often throws in some surprise at the end that transforms the whole book, but in the end it remained garbage, really really REALLY long garbage.

The goodreads reading challenge has certainly made me more of a completist! Probably a good thing???

[George]

I almost Lem’d California Bones when the protagonist said “let’s Jacques Cousteau this shit.” Can’t say that I’m happy I stuck with it. Probably should of let it go.

[John]

I am feeling very guilty about being 75% through Uprooted and not being interested enough to finish it. This is the first book I've given up on in many years.

I've lemmed a series or two before - Wheel Of Time being the most recent one. I made it through the first 5 and it's just not getting any better. Kind of turned me off of epic fantasy tbh.

[John (Taloni)]

I also noped out of Wheel of Time after three or four books. At one point I angrily skimmed over a stupid plot point where the team lost the macguffin then got it back. It was 200 pages. The entirety of Childhood's End takes less.

As for Uprooted, it's got a pretty killer ending and a lot of loose ends tie up in a satisfying manner. If you can find the motivation to go on you may enjoy it.

[Iain]

That is why I have never started reading Wheel of Time, a bazillion pages and no ending...

(Grumble.... Brandon Sanderson Grumble)..

[Tasha]

I recently started Wheel of Time :(

[Danielle]

John wrote: "I am feeling very guilty about being 75% through Uprooted and not being interested enough to finish it. This is the first book I've given up on in many years.

I've lemmed a series or two before - ..."

I thought I was the only one! I lemmed it at 60%, tried to go back to it, lemmed it again. Everyone just love, love, loves this book. I didn't hate it, just wasn't feeling it.

I never used to lem (and proudly), but finally started a couple years ago. There's just too many good books out there not to. I have two DNF shelves: one for might finish, one for probably not. Have yet to finish a book from either shelf!

[Keith]

I found Wheel of Time OK for two books, good for one book, bad for two, unreadably awful for one...and after that I realized it was time to stop.

The only book I've lemmed recently was Ready Player One. I knew right away it was not a book for me, gave it a little bit to prove me wrong, and then put it down.

I lemmed William Gibson's Spook Country twice because found myself disliking it intensely. But I am a Gibson completist, so I went in some years later and loved the thing. So you never can tell. Except with Wheel of Time.

Ultimately, it's a function of time and effort. My "to read" list is deep and full of stuff I know I'll appreciate. So if something just isn't working, I'm out -- though I can sometimes sense that it's just a frame of mind thing, so (like Spook Country) I will eventually come back and give it another go (esp. if it's an author I usually like).