Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion
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Discussion: Exit West
Wow, Columbus. I can't wait to read all of these accolades. Thanks so much for sharing them!
Columbus wrote: ".....and another oneTime magazine:
http://time.com/5028161/top-10-novels..."
Great list, thank you! I have holds on The Ninth Hour and White Tears.
thank you all, too. could only get the ebook from my library last weekend and read it in two days. so grateful for this group; looking forward to catching up on your comments and insights and reading the reviews. many many thanks
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We are now discussing Exit West in its entirety. No spoilers!
Columbus wrote: "Thank you all!We are now discussing Exit West in its entirety. No spoilers!"
you mean spoilers okay, right? ;)
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We are now discussing Exit West in its entirety. No spoilers!"
you mean spoilers okay, right? ;)"
Haha, that’s exactly what I meant.
Spoilers are welcome people!
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jo, you brought up a couple of things yourself. One was Saeed’s garb - the black robe she wore. What was the political statement there or was there one? There was something else you brought up but I can’t recall now.
What did you think this book?
Did we get a hopeful ending?
Columbus wrote: "jo wrote: "Columbus wrote: "Thank you all!We are now discussing Exit West in its entirety. No spoilers!"
you mean spoilers okay, right? ;)"
Haha, that’s exactly what I meant.
Spoilers are wel..."
Okay. I was stymied by the original communication :)
as someone who also chooses body-covering, de-feminizing clothing (in my case boy clothing, typically a size too big) i wondered about the feminist potential of hamid's choice for nadia's clothing. obviously there are various differences between the way nadia dresses (consistently, everywhere, whether it's hot or not) and the way i dress (also consistently) but i can think of a couple of similarities:
* it's safer when it comes to male sexual aggression (nadia brings this up explicitly at the beginning, right?)
* it constitutes a "different" way to clothe/present the female body (hamid makes clear that in most cases it was really not necessary at all for nadia to dress that way) which at some point morphs from convenience to a conscious choice about how to look
* finally, after a while, it becomes who the person is.
i think we don't typically reflect on how much the way we dress is who we are, because most of us dress quite conventionally. but when i come across people who dress "differently" (from gender-different to bizarre to downright sloppy or maybe even dirty), i remind myself that maybe the person does not have a choice, that that's who they are, the way, say, a man would not REALLY have the choice to go out in a dress, because he'd be too uncomfortable (but might very well be perfectly comfortable with a skirt in a scottish enactment). the way we dress is very much who we are, and by the end of the novel it is, it seems to me, who nadia is.
i see this as a feminist choice because it empowers nadia to be entirely who she is.
I agree that’s Nadia’s choice entirely to cover herself, first for safety, and eventually because I think she finds it comfortable and familiar.
I agree that Nadia's decision to wear a long robe is a feminist choice. We continually have to remind ourselves that feminism means wearing what you want and not what society expects. Nadia chose her robe in her home country partially for safety, which she stated to Saeed when he asked. At one point she waited in a very crowded area before they left and was aggressively groped, so her robe did not protect her completely from sexual harassment. She chose to continue wearing her robe when they left and were no longer living in a religiously repressive country. It was a very personal choice for her and I don't remember that it was explained to the reader why she continued to dress that way. But presumably even though she did not need to wear clothes completely covering her body, she wanted to. It is a good reminder that clothing can be a personal statement and not always forced on a person even if that's the way most people would see it.
It is true that men in Western countries would not feel comfortable in a dress. But men in many countries wear a long robe or a skirt. Clothing is very cultural and Nadia did not discard this part of her cultural identity, if that's why she chose to continue wearing it. It could have been a comfort issue, but it could be a way to honor her past.
Honouring her past is a good possibility too, and a good point.
I had the feeling that Nadia's choice was about more than protecting herself from sexual harassment. I think she was not only keeping her body private and protected, but also keeping her feelings about religion private and protected--dressing in a way that would avoid question/suspicion. And I can see how this way of being in public could become comfortable for her, and allow her the most freedom possible.
I’m so happy to see this thread filling up with comments. I’m in the middle of a last minute thanksgiving dinner, but I can’t wait to read your comments when I’m done. Rather you celebrate this day or not, I hope your heart full of warmth and gratitude.
Laurie wrote: "It is a good reminder that clothing can be a personal statement and not always forced on a person even if that's the way most people would see it."it's hard to imagine that hamid wouldn't have this in mind, with all the persecution muslim women get in europe for covering themselves.
Kathleen wrote: "but also keeping her feelings about religion private and protected"
maybe same point as above, but so interesting. i hadn't thought about that. and maybe that is also an identity marker, no? something like: i'm a muslim, and, true, i don't practice and possibly do not believe, but this is who i am, so deal with it.
I wasn't quite as enamored with the novel as the rest of the world seems to be, be even I can admit as time goes on, I see more and more symbolism and messages in the novel. Very clever writing. One interesting point was as Nadia and Saeed become safer and more secure on their journey, their need for each other becomes less and less. I read a nonfiction book earlier this year Tribe: On Homecoming and Belonging. One of the author's points was that communities under stress (war, natural disasters, man made disasters etc) are much stronger and more communal and egalitarian. They are much more invested in each other's well being. Less individualistic. I thought the novel carried forth this notion beautifully. Saeed and Nadia came together in a time of stress and duress. By the end of the novel, they can't find the emotional connection they had, but neither of them is fearing for their future.
Monica wrote: "I wasn't quite as enamored with the novel as the rest of the world seems to be, be even I can admit as time goes on, I see more and more symbolism and messages in the novel. Very clever writing. On..."oh, what you say about communities under stress is lovely, monica. obviously the book itself provides all sorts of counterexamples (not of communities under stress that are dangerous, necessarily, but of communities under stress that are not nice enough to stay). i guess the marin community has the tremendous advantage of being left alone to develop as it will, without hatred from the outside (greece) or regimentation (england). and i can't NOT see in this a blueprint for all the communities large and small we (the US, the west) are hanging around to "help" (afghanistan comes to mind). another way in which Exit West is political (if you haven't read Tony Kushner's Homebody/Kabul, do; i believe it was written before 9/11 happened, or at least before afghanistan was attacked as a consequence of 9/11, and it's quite a heartcry for that poor, poor land; also, a lovely text).
i have wondered why hamid decided to dissolve nadia and saeed. the description of the death of that relationship contains some of the most beautiful passages of the whole book, in my opinion. he really gets that the end of a relationship is also the death of a bit of oneself, and also, as i've heard someone say, the death of a civilization (anthony burgess?). it made me cry.
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I’d be curious to know more of what you thought of the book. Did you write a review of it? What did you think of his writing style? Several people who criticized this book made reference to the punctuation and that many of the sentences were too long and neverending. They figured this was Hamid’s style but it didn’t work in this book. One even said, “you would never guess he studied under Toni Morrison at Princeton with sentences like this.” One sentence in chapter nine that begins with, “On Prinsengracht in the center of Amsterdam....” is 289 words long. This is not an exception but rather common in the book she said.
Another one said the sentences were really clunky and another said simply riddled with cliches. I didn’t find any of this a problem for me or maybe I’m not as critically attuned reading-wise as these folk? I don’t know.
I must admit there was a bone of contention with the criticism directed at Nadia’s character for exemplifying what they felt were a non-tradional gender role in Hamid’s characterization of her. Also, the unmitigated nerve to request sex from Saeed, ride a motorbike and flip someone the bird. Oh yeh, and because of this, Saeed is the beloved character and Nadia not so much. Both male reviewers if that makes a difference.
I’m gonna change my rating due to the wonderful comments here and happy to do so.
I have held off with a review because a lot of times it takes a while for the full impact of the book to seep in. My ratings often change after I think on them. I was between 3 or 4 here. I probably rounded down because I had such high expectations. When I read other gr friends reviews and their takes on certain events; I saw things I hadn't noticed in my own read. I still don't see this in a significantly different light than I did when I finished the book, but I have an appreciation for the author's ability to bring out that kind of "gush" in people whose views and judgments I respect. I'm not sure exactly what was the "meh" about the book for me. I thought the writing was simplistic but interesting. I was much more interested in the story in the Part I. Once they left their home country, my interest started waning. The various doors were to more and more fictional realities that were embellished to suit Hamid's messaging. Their world/time in Greece and London bore little resemblance to what I (admittedly limited but not entirely naive perceptions) would view as reality. I guess the book started in a place that I expected, but as they traveled less so. But as you say, the journey has gotten much more interesting through these discussions.
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Thanks Monica, that helps a lot in understanding your thoughts.
One thing this book has done and even just as significantly the authors interviews and talks, is encouraged me to read his entire body of work. He really appears to have something important to say about the migrant and refugee situation.
Kathleen wrote: "I had the feeling that Nadia's choice was about more than protecting herself from sexual harassment. I think she was not only keeping her body private and protected, but also keeping her feelings about religion private and protected--dressing in a way that would avoid question/suspicion. And I can see how this way of being in public could become comfortable for her, and allow her the most freedom possible...."Yes, that's exactly how I saw Nadia's choice of the black robe... it had provided freedom in her home territory where it was considered ordinary and acceptable clothing, and continued to provide protection once she started traveling. Plus, I think it became an emblem of familiarity and helped her to remember her own identity amongst all the changes, and finally a thread (pun!) of continuity for her that ran throughout her journey's story.
I just read through this amazing thread. What a terrific discussion. I feel especially enlightened by how people reacted to the almost casual depiction of extreme violence in the early chapters. I definitely had mixed feelings, and I felt completely ripped from the story by the scene where Saeed's mother is killed while searching for an earring. Yes, it captures the errant madness of living in a war zone. but even so, something about that passage in particular seemed too deliberatively flip, not just neutral, and so the writing pulled me out of the story.There were other instances where I felt too well taken care of, in a way, and not challenged enough by the story. I didn't feel the devastation that jo felt. I fell a bit on the feeling"entertained" side.
The Reluctant Fundamentalist on the other hand left me feeling wrenchingly drained, and sad, and seeing the world differently, and it has stayed with me. It's not as acclaimed a book, though, by any means. Maybe by adding gentleness and distance at points in the writing, Hamid has reached many more readers with his message.
poingu wrote: "I just read through this amazing thread. What a terrific discussion. I feel especially enlightened by..."I agree: I liked this book, but mildly: I felt overly distanced from the characters/action/emotions within. I appreciated the structure, but after reading the 3 chapters each week for this discussion, I wasn't aching to continue. But the conversation in this thread has been wonderful & illuminating! :-) And I'm adding The Reluctant Fundamentalist to my TBR shelf.
came across this article about the Hijab; thought about our discussions/reflections throughout this monthhttp://www.muslimworldtoday.org/takin...
That's an interesting article, Janet, thank you. It reinforces the idea that women are told they must wear something to hide and be modest because it is required in their holy book. I am not Muslim, so I am taking her word for it that it is not specifically stated in the Qu'ran. There is nothing wrong with wearing a hijab, but it needs to be a personal choice and not a requirement based on a lie.
poingu wrote: "I just read through this amazing thread. What a terrific discussion. I feel especially enlightened by how people reacted to the almost casual depiction of extreme violence in the early chapters. I ..."I wondered about that too, and I was shocked by some of the descriptions of violence... but my overall sense in the end was that violence itself had become so much part of the norm in not only their war-torn city but also the world, that these matter-of-fact descriptions were just that -- matter-of-fact.
The writing about the violence also had a flatness to it that seemed deadening after a while. And the question is, has violence become so much the norm -- in our world, in the media, in entertainment, etc -- that we do in fact and in reality trivialize it, and has it deadened us as sensitive human beings? I wondered if this was the author's intention, because it seemed intended.
i think representation is everything in this book. and i think the whole purpose is to get the western reader to reflect on themselves, not to get a sense of how "the other half" lives. so yes, our response to representation of violence seems to me to be exactly what hamid wants us to observe.
jo wrote: "i think representation is everything in this book. and i think the whole purpose is to get the western reader to reflect on themselves, not to get a sense of how "the other half" lives. so yes, our..."this seems to me also to be the goal of the doors. we know about the horror of the voyages. what we don't think enough about is what leaving everything behind and finding oneself with nothing feels like.
also, the huge dehumanization. people turning into invading masses.
All in all, I rather liked the book although I preferred the first half as it felt more grounded in reality than the 2nd with all of its doors. It's clear the book is aimed at Western readers, trying to present characters they can relate to as modern, rational humans with similar concerns and imperfections, people who are caught up in a hideous situation they didn't create and can't influence, much less control. I find it interesting we never really see anyone else back home, not the religious radicals and not anyone on the pro-government side, anyone we might easily be repelled by.Similarly, the depiction of violence is pretty subdued. For the most part we see it impacting the lives of our couple, confining them in smaller and smaller boxes until there is no safe space anywhere. Horrible things happen, but we don't see it happen in real time, no thudding bullets or slashing knives. It certainly affected me emotionally and I wondered if that was because the violence as presented was low key and matter of fact, maybe because we can see pretty much any violent image we care to deal with, either actual or fictional and maybe that is what we have become deadened to.
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What does this have to do with our current months read other than the fact it made the top 100? Well, there’s certain to be more animus forthcoming when they see the New York Times 10 Best Books of 2017 list. Let the mayhem begin!
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...
Columbus thanks for posting both the list and the Gawker article about Ayelet Waldman!There is a group of women writers in the SF Bay Area that get together every month and when I was attending I got to meet some very interesting people in passing--Amy Tan, Lalita Tademy, and many others whose books I'd read, and who were fun to see in a room together. Ayelet Waldman came frequently and I have to say I loved her a lot because she clearly has no filter whatsoever on what she says, and that can be refreshing.
Now that I've brought up Lalita Tademy also though I want to say that I have rarely been in the presence of any one person who made such a great and positive impression on me...of intellect, humility, warmth, well-being, strength.
(with apologies for pulling the thread off-course)
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There is a group of women writers in the SF Bay Area that get together every month and when I was attending I..."
Oh no apologies necessary. In fact, thanks for spreading light on Waldman because I really wondered what she was like in a typical everyday setting after the Times fiasco. I had just finished (and absolutely loving) Red Hook Road when this incident happened and thought this woman is totally unhinged. But, also, right before this happened I read an article with her that included pics of her husband, Michael Chabon, and the kids doing normal everyday stuff at home. It’s what I meant by this NY Times list that causes normal people to do abnormal things.
Thank goodness we don’t have to worry about Mashin Hamid going off the deep end now that he’s one of ten.
Columbus wrote: "The New York Times annually releases its list of the 100 notable books of the year. Seems like every year there’s some chaos or hullabaloo (read: overreaction?) by some writers for one reason or th..."very, very pleased for hamid and ward. 3 out of 10 book address anti-black racism directly. JUST ABOUT TIME.
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http://www.latimes.com/books/jacketco...
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However, it’s due to this that some people I know found fault with this book. They thought the author should have explored some of these topics more in depth and not skimmed through it. Another complaint by several people (who I’m certain do not know each other) thought the writing too simplistic. Particularly for a book that’s been placed as one of the best books of the year by many, many sources. What’s your thoughts on this? Does this book deserve all the acclaim it’s receiving? What book would you replace this with in The NY Times Top 10 list if you could? My favorite book this year is Stay with Me so....
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To the complaints, I think the simplicity of this book was key. The world is a nasty, complex place, and I enjoyed this simple view of possibilities. I wouldn't replace it at all on the lists of top books. I might replace another one with Augustown though. :-) I missed the group read but when I got to it, it became a favorite for me, and I thought it was deserving as well.
i'm sorry we never got to talk about saeed's and nadia's relationship. someone (monica? beverly?) said that they got together only because of circumstances, then when things developed their relationship didn't hold up. but don't we all get together, in one way or another, because of circumstances? what broke them up? and why did hamid choose to break them up? this remains an unresolved point for me.
jo wrote: "i'm sorry we never got to talk about saeed's and nadia's relationship. someone (monica? beverly?) said that they got together only because of circumstances, then when things developed their relatio..."I think I contributed to this idea. I do feel like emotional bonds tend to be much more intense in stressful situations. I never really had the feeling that these two were in love. I think they provided emotional "shelter" and comfort so to speak. I think under duress that can become a basic need, not a social need. As they felt more and more safe and secure, they were able to examine their social needs and found each other wanting.
How did folks feel about Nadia's discovery of her attraction to women towards the end of the novel?
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Oh, you mean the handsome woman, the cook with strong arms? At least Hamid introduced an elderly gay couple in one of the vignettes earlier in the story. That way it wasn’t totally an afterthought as some are prone to do. What did you think?
Columbus wrote: "Monica wrote: "jo wrote: "i'm sorry we never got to talk about saeed's and nadia's relationship. someone (monica? beverly?) said that they got together only because of circumstances, then when thin..."omg how did i forgot nadia's attraction to the cook?! haha
Columbus wrote: "Oh, you mean the handsome woman, the cook with strong arms? At least Hamid introduced an elderly gay couple in one of the vignettes earlier in the story. That way it wasn’t totally an afterthought as some are prone to do. What did you think? "I liked the elderly gay couple vignette quite a bit. In fact the vignettes towards the end were quite poignant and among my favorite moments in the book. Nadia's discovery for me came out of nowhere. Were we supposed to think this wasn't that out of character because she rode a motorcycle? Idk, it came across like a thud for me. A bit of a faint towards cliche territory...
Monica wrote: "Columbus wrote: "Oh, you mean the handsome woman, the cook with strong arms? At least Hamid introduced an elderly gay couple in one of the vignettes earlier in the story. That way it wasn’t totally..."nah, gender fludity ftw. i didn't notice cuz i see it every day. nbd.
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But, I’d be lying if I told you I didn’t correlate Nadia/Motorcycle/sexual fluidity. It still didn’t ring false with me when I think of the whole totality of It all with Hamid in interviews, the fact that we got an earlier gay couple and Nadia’s personality throughout the book. She in many ways eschewed conventional gender roles and did exactly what she wanted to do. Did she not? I mean I really had expected her to give in and connect back with her parents at some point and when she did not I was like, well damn.
Monica wrote: "jo wrote: "i'm sorry we never got to talk about saeed's and nadia's relationship. someone (monica? beverly?) said that they got together only because of circumstances, then when things developed th..."I remember Nadia kind of fixated on the young woman they met when they were in Greece, or somewhere (it's been too many months since I read this book to be sure.) And I thought, hmmm, I think Nadia is more interested in this young woman than Saeed.
And re Nadia and Saeed's relationship, I figured it was doomed shortly after it began. Saeed reminded me too much of the young men I knew growing up, who were much more traditional under their westernized manners and words than they realized. Nadia felt much more open to a number of things than Saeed did, to me, not just because she drove a motorcycle, but just generally, so I figured eventually N&S's relationship would become rocky eventually.
Columbus wrote: "Monica wrote: "Columbus wrote: "Oh, you mean the handsome woman, the cook with strong arms? At least Hamid introduced an elderly gay couple in one of the vignettes earlier in the story. That way it..."nadia is a such a cool character. we are a lot closer to saeed -- to his thoughts and feelings -- and he's a very good man. i like them both so much. saeed's reflection on the death of their relationship is fantastic.
I think neither Nadia nor Saeed were the person the other hoped and needed them to be and that's why they broke up. It would have happened much earlier and more naturally had they found themselves in more normal circumstances. Really, the only reason they lived together initially was that it was the only way to protect Nadia from the extremists who took over the area. Saeed would never have simply moved in with her outside of marriage otherwise. His family would have been horrified if he had. The primary reason they stayed together afterwards was self-preservation in leaving their country and later, it was easier emotionally than being all alone in a strange world. In the end, Nadia was very Western in the sense she really is all about herself and her exploration on her life's journey. Saeed is very Eastern, a moderate traditionalist but still a traditionalist with deep emotional ties to family, God and society. In the end, there was no way to reconcile that or bridge that gap without one or the other giving up themselves to the other. The fact that they were both very decent people who had experienced so much together just made it more poignant. The London scenes reminded me a lot of the movie, Children of Men.
Literary Fiction by People of Color
Books mentioned in this topic
The Leavers (other topics)What It Means When a Man Falls from the Sky (other topics)
Exit West (other topics)
What It Means When a Man Falls from the Sky (other topics)
Exit West (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Percival Everett (other topics)Mohsin Hamid (other topics)
Mohsin Hamid (other topics)
Nadeem Aslam (other topics)
Kamila Shamsie (other topics)
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Time magazine:
http://time.com/5028161/top-10-novels...