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Type of editing you get?
I hate to say it Preston but a professional is really needed. You don't want to put up something with errors in it---it wont help sell your books and wont help your career.Save up and get a professional. Authors red Room is a place I've been told is good
If you can only afford one, go for proofreading, so at least you (hopefully) have an error-free book. But personally, I think each of the three stages is important.
If you can find a good writing group to join, one where you critique and edit each others' work, you'll catch quite a bit of the things an editor would get. It won't eliminate the need for an editor, but it will let you send a cleaner copy and will result in less expense. You'll also get better at editing your own work.
You need a good, quality professional editor if you expect people to pay for your novel. At a minimum a decent editor for spelling, grammar and proofreading. Preferably you also need a developmental editor, but can get around this if you have a fantastic circle of critique partners with 2-5 other writers with different strengths.Writing might be an art but publishing is a business. If you can't afford decent cover art or editors save your money until you can. You only get one shot at a good first impression and you don't want to upload a substandard product. Unhappy customers and low ratings will sink your career before it starts.
A.W. wrote: "You need a good, quality professional editor if you expect people to pay for your novel. At a minimum a decent editor for spelling, grammar and proofreading. Preferably you also need a developmenta..."Hi A.W. :)
It would be nice, if we all had the finances to hire editors, copy editors, proofreaders, developmental editors, and if somehow we were able to find 2-5 other writers with different strengths, and, be able to additionally afford cover art illustrators, wouldn't it?
What I'd like to know is, if that's what you've done, (surrounded yourself with all this talent, and paid for it,) then I think you should ask for a refund and find some new critique partners, because after casually reading the sample at Amazon books of just one of your novels, Obsidian Eyes, I stumbled across instances of awkward sentence structure/syntax, inconsistent use of adjectives, missing and wrongly placed words etc. (If you'd like to know what/where, please PM me, I'd be happy to point you in the right direction, and that's despite 'not' being an editor or proofreader myself.)
So, my question to you is this: If an aspiring author doesn't have access to all your recommendations, do you suggest they wait 'indefinitely' until they do? (sometimes, some writers, just can't and never will, be able to financially afford to do so) Because from my perusal of your book, and if you take your own advice, you should pull it off the market, re-edit the whole book (like I said, I only read the sample) if you don't want those "unhappy customers" that you speak of.
Having self published my first two books, I brought in a content editor for my third and got a huge amount of excellent feedback from it and ELEVEN pages of notes. I used Publish Nation to find the editor and paid, what i think was a very reasonable fee of something like $400. I will always use this service from now on as I know the errors that tTirban found in the book he mentions were also true of my first draft.
Certainly worth considering in my opinion.
Preston wrote: "I have been through 3 beta readers and don't have the budget for everything (ie substantive editing, copyediting, proofreading.)My question is: What type of editing do you get for your books, or ..."
Hi Preston :)
My advice for you would be to join a free group at your local library or bookstore and earnestly seek as many free beta readers that you can possibly find. After several rounds of reviews and adjustments, at least you'll have a product you can be proud of.
That's never going to get you the same level of accuracy and expertise that paying hundreds, if not thousands of dollars would get you hiring editors, copy editors, proofreaders, cover artists etc, but it sure as all hell would improve your book to a standard that is publishable.
Good Luck!
Being a professional writer and sometimes editor, I did the unthinkable: I actually edited and proofread my own novel, then put it on Kindle, etc. The book is starting to sell, although it's a long way from best-seller status, and it's gotten a couple of good reviews.
I still say: if you are a rank beginner who needs lots of help, fine. Pay thousands for an editor, then pay for a proofreader to correct the problems your thousand-dollar editor missed.
But if you're good, why let another cook take over your cooking?
Dennis....because some cooks have culinary institute traing and some don't and their paths to success can be very hit and miss without training.Preston: you and only you can decide what to do with the information given above.
If the person above who read a sample is correct....then you have to decide if putting up a novel with errors in it is the best you can do. Perhaps it's impatience the need to see and say I' m a novelist now.
No one is saying you aren't: you just need some refining...
Dennis wrote: "Being a professional writer and sometimes editor, I did the unthinkable: I actually edited and proofread my own novel, then put it on Kindle, etc. The book is starting to sell, although it's a lon..."
Well, there are some writers who can competently self-edit. I'm one of them, BUT, there are some who are very good at telling a story who cannot, for whatever reason, and there are those who are error-free, but whose prose is dull.
So it's useful if you can, but it's not a requirement to be a competent writer. Even if you can, there are benefits to an outside editor, IF your outside editor is competent and your styles mesh well. There are frauds out there. A bad editor is worse than none at all.
A good editor gives perspective. One of the issues with self-editing is that you know what's in your head, so it's hard to look at the page objectively.
Turhan wrote: "Because from my perusal of your book, and if you take your own advice, you should pull it off the market, re-edit the whole book"As has been stated, at a minimum a decent editor for spelling and grammar is required. A developmental editor can be skipped if a writer has a good critique circle.
The internet is loaded with writers groups, it's not hard to join a few that discuss your genre and build a critique group. Writers rushing and loading anything up on Amazon is the problem and why indies have such a bad reputation. Don't add fuel to the fire.
Editors range in price, again you can ask on writers forums for recommendations and find one who fits your budget and writing style.
Turhan - looking at your sales ranking you obviously have some axe to grind against authors who are selling and (by looking at your sample) you obviously have an issue about working with editors and I assume that is why you didn't use one.
Writing style is subjective. I don't expect everybody to love my book, and they don't. That's life. Style is different to spelling & grammar and I am happy with the editor I worked with throughout the project.
One of the common mistakes self-published authors make is not realizing that they are not only authors, but publishers. Publishers hire editors, cover designers, and typesetters. To do it right takes a few thousand dollars.
I don't care who you are, you can't edit or design a cover yourself. And a word processor is not a typesetting program.
Critique groups are very useful, I'm a member of one myself. But they are not editors. Most members can barely write a sentence.
Beta readers are a necessity, but they are not a substitute for an editor.
I assure you that if you don't hire professionals, you will look foolish.
Michael E. Henderson
A.W. wrote: "Turhan wrote: "Because from my perusal of your book, and if you take your own advice, you should pull it off the market, re-edit the whole book"As has been stated, at a minimum a decent editor fo..."
Really? An axe to grind? right, yeah OK.
I'm also going to follow your lead and not respond to your attack/accusation that I have a problem with successful authors.
I wish you much success in your career, and that of indies that can't afford an editor.
At the risk of being snarky, indies who cannot recognize a possessive should rethink the editorial thing.
Turhan wrote: "indie's that can't afford an editor."And I'm the one you are advocating pull my supposedly error ridden novel from Amazon? Oh the irony....
Writing is an art - publishing is a business. If you want to go into business you need start up capital.
Go back and read my comments, you seem to be missing the point. You do your research, find an editor who fits your budget and needs. They range in price from a couple of hundred to a couple of thousand.
I find your diatribe against me odd given you have another thread where you proudly proclaim you loaded your book to Amazon without so much as a single set of fresh eyes looking at it. Forget the editor - you didn't have a single critique partner or beta reader go through the MS first (both of which are FREE by the way, it just takes time to make those connections).
You then go on to ponder why isn't your book selling and how come no one will review it...
D.C. wrote: "At the risk of being snarky, indies who cannot recognize a possessive should rethink the editorial thing."Thanks, I tend to do that a lot, I'll go back and change it.
Many of us do that, but the editor catches it. There are people who are good at policing themselves, but if you are not, and possibly even if you are, you should have someone else go over your work.
I'm good at it, but I always have others comb through as well. Even then, it's not unusual for me to find something they've missed — and I missed the first few times through!There are no guarantees and perfection is evasive. Indie writers aren't the only ones plagued by mistakes. Virtually every book I've read that's been put out by a major publisher in the last decade has several typos and spelling errors.
What is even more important to catch, though, is make sure you've chosen words appropriately. That's something I do see slip through, and that's also where a diverse group of betas and fellow members of a critique group are most helpful. And a GOOD editor.
So are www.dictionary.com and www.thesaurus.com . And S. I. Hayakawa's Choose the Right Word is a good spell book to learn how to choose the right word that can spark the magic in your sentence.
Editing doesn't have to cost thousands, but the downside is you need to spend a bit more time with CPs or similar. I have a novella coming out and gave myself a maximum budget of $300 for editing. I asked other writers for recommendations and emailed a few and found someone who fits my budget and whose sample was very thorough.Readers won't cut you any slack for being an indie or pleading "I can't afford an editor." No book is ever 100% free of errors and sometimes in correcting typos you insert them. However there is a difference between the odd typo and numerous spelling & grammatical errors, flat prose, head hopping, incorrect dialogue tags and an over reliance on adverbs.
D.C. wrote: "Many of us do that, but the editor catches it. There are people who are good at policing themselves, but if you are not, and possibly even if you are, you should have someone else go over your work."I agree, and it's something I've been struggling with since I started to write, and that's only been since last August. I have a lot to learn.
Turhan wrote: "I agree, and it's something I've been struggling with since I started to write, and that's only been since last August. I have a lot to learn."And that is why a solid critique circle is so important. Then you need an editor to put the final polish on the MS. Don't expect paying customers to be your beta readers.
A.W. wrote: "Turhan wrote: "I agree, and it's something I've been struggling with since I started to write, and that's only been since last August. I have a lot to learn."And that is why a solid critique circ..."
OK, Thanks.
Preston wrote: "I have been through 3 beta readers and don't have the budget for everything (ie substantive editing, copyediting, proofreading.)My question is: What type of editing do you get for your books, or ..."
Preston, you need *all of those things.*
There is really no excuse for not putting a polished product before your customers.
Have you tried bartering for editing work? Talked to the journalism department at your local community college to see whether an advanced editing student could work on your manuscript for class credit? There are always ways.
Dennis wrote: "But if you're good, why let another cook take over your cooking? "Because when you edit your own work, it is far too easy to *not see the errors.* You look at things so many times that it looks right to you, even when it isn't.
Everyone wants to write the great novel yesterday. What they really want in the fame, the money and babes. What they don't want are endless rewrites and years of frustration. What they don't want is working at Starbucks or a bar. Evangeline Lily was a cute struggling author working in an LA bar. Her cute got her a role in the series Lost and a couple of movies. I'm not sure about her writing.
Small equalizing correction: "fame, the money and hunks".
Linda wrote: "Too often, I see writers who really don't have much of a clue, but they think they can throw the book up on Amazon, make a bunch of money, pay for editing, republish, and then make a bunch more money"This 1+ :)
Similar advice is given in this thread, where the OP threw the book up on Amazon without a single set of fresh eyes to review the MS.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
A.W. wrote: "Linda wrote: "Too often, I see writers who really don't have much of a clue, but they think they can throw the book up on Amazon, make a bunch of money, pay for editing, republish, and then make a ..."That was me! Thanks for bringing that up :)
So, I confessed that I did exactly what you said [...] without a single set of fresh eyes to review the MS."
Here's the 'thing.' I admitted doing so without being prompted, I wanted to start a dialogue and know if my course of action, or in this/my case 'inaction,' was unique or if in fact it was something that was way more prevalent and why. Linda said she's seen it "too often,"
I learned to address my fears by coming out on pretty much the biggest stage online, where every author (SPd or Trade published) could either take a 'pot shot' at me, or, reach out and offer to help. There were instances of both, but for the most part, the writing community was very helpful easing me out of my unreasonable fear of peer pressure.
For my next book (book two of the trilogy) I'll be actively seeking out some beta readers, I'm grateful for the push, because my fear of critique and insecurities were overcome by several posters' kind words.
That said, I doubt I'll hire an editor, (I know you insist, at least I 'think' you insist, it's the only way to have a polished manuscript fit for publication.) but I'm pretty certain that my editing skills, along with the input from beta readers, especially after several passes, will produce a consumer product worthy of a readers' buck. At least, that's my opinion.
Thanks again for linking that thread to this one.
Amazon hates writers trading reviews so that lets me out. I so far haven't had a single review. I haven't written one yet. Probably a connection. Ah well.
Len wrote: "Amazon hates writers trading reviews so that lets me out. I so far haven't had a single review. I haven't written one yet. Probably a connection. Ah well."Hey Len, I've already turned down review swaps because I don't think it'll produce an unbiased opinion of one's book. However, you can always put 'yourself' out there and offer to review books for whatever your preferred genre might be. That's exactly what I've been doing recently and to be honest, I think it's improving my writing skills exponentially. LOL, some people might not agree.
Try to be very specific about what you like and very importantly what you don't like to read. State how long it'll take you to do the review, where you'll be posting it, and most of all be true to yourself about the book's impact or lack thereof, on your emotions.
If you've recently read any books, why not post a review on your My Books page here at Goodreads and your Author page on Amazon Books (if that's who you're published with.)
BTW, is your book professionally edited, you don't have to answer that, just thought I'd ask.
Good idea. Thank you very much.As for professional editing, call it spreading the wealth around. When I was told that professional marketing would cost $5000 a month ($60,000 a year), I pointed out I could buy a Porsche for that. And, of course, there is almost no way anyone could earn that much with a self published book.
Consequently, I'll spend a few bucks having my books edited and marketed and my blogs published in the Chicago Tribune. I'll have a table at the Chicago Comicon (I'm working on a series of graphic novels) and I'll travel with my wife. Next stop, Tahiti and the Marquesas.
P.S. I'm rereleasing later this fall two of my older novels that were never professionally edited. I don't have yet an editor to work with so I'm open to suggestions.
Len wrote: "Amazon hates writers trading reviews so that lets me out. I so far haven't had a single review. I haven't written one yet. Probably a connection. Ah well."There's no connection - I don't review and I certainly would never review swap. My first novel now has over 100 reviews on Amazon, but it's taken time, you need to be patient and allow reviews to filter in organically.
If you want to give reviews a nudge you can try a review only blog tour or there are some indie services with NetGalley accounts who can list you book for a fee.
Well done on those review numbers. Do you feel that NetGalley actually helped?
Scott wrote: "Do you feel that NetGalley actually helped?"Personally - no. I had maybe 2 reviews on my first book that came via NetGalley, but I write steampunk which is a very small niche market.
If you have something that is more popular and has broader appeal such as romance, thriller or sci-fi you will have better luck with NetGalley.
Preston wrote: "I have been through 3 beta readers and don't have the budget for everything (ie substantive editing, copyediting, proofreading.)It all depends on how much money one has. If the writer doesn't have enough money, he or she must find a job that's more than minimum wage or find the a sugar source. The bad thing about looking for a job is that it takes time. The bad thing about the latter is that the writer surrenders his or her opinions. I chose the former.
Arabella wrote: "I hate to say it Preston but a professional is really needed. You don't want to put up something with errors in it---it wont help sell your books and wont help your career.Save up and get a professional. Authors red Room is a place I've been told is good"
Arabella, I must be going to the wrong place. There are a bunch of "Authors red room" hits on Google, most not entirely the same title. The one I found seems to be an empty suit, with broken links and not much info.
If you know which one is the "real one", could you please give the folks the link?
Renee wrote: "If you can find a good writing group to join, one where you critique and edit each others' work, you'll catch quite a bit of the things an editor would get. It won't eliminate the need for an edito..."I've been recommending that for authors for over a decade. I know first hand what they can do for you. Even though I'm working for a publisher as an editor, I still maintain my involvement in one I joined well over a decade ago.
If you can get into the right group, you can go from tyro to pro over time, both from the advice you get from more seasoned writers -- and often published authors -- as well as the work you do working on other people's stories. It's a win-win (if you'll excuse the cliche') all the way.
I'm a damned good copy editor (at least the people I work for think so) of fiction.I also write fiction (under a pen name). I do my own copy editing THEN I turn it over to another editor who finds all the mistakes I've been staring at and glossing over for several rewrites. I do the same for him.
Many moons ago, I was a programmer/analyst and discovered that when a program won't run and I can't for the life of me find the error after hours of beating my head against the problem, another pair of trained eyes will find the problem within 5 minutes.
Programming and copy editing have one thing in common: nit picking. Good copy editing goes one step further in the fiction world in that it's more than just periods and commas. Often it's word choices and active vs passive sentences plus a host of other things that good writers/authors learn over time.
A lot of this is invisible to the average reader. S/he doesn't notice it. And if that's the case, then you've done a superb job. If something you write causes the reader to notice your handiwork (or lack thereof) instead of the story, you've cheated the reader out of the best experience you should have offered.
So much for copy editing. The other half is the story itself. Opening scenes, pacing, content, order of presentation. People who do this well are MUCH scarcer than good copy editors. One of the owners, now deceased, of the outfit I work for was one of the best "story editors" on the planet. Next to her, I'm just luke warm. So I definitely send my work to someone who does good story editing before I even bother to do any copy editing of my own (sometimes major sections get slashed, rewritten, of added).
Lesson: get an editor. Get two. Make sure they know what they're doing. Pay them if you must, but don't pay them more than you could ever possibly make selling your books. It's a business after all.
It takes a careful perusing of groups. Finding one that works is a chore.
Al wrote: "I'm a damned good copy editor (at least the people I work for think so) of fiction.I also write fiction (under a pen name). I do my own copy editing THEN I turn it over to another editor who find..." One outfit offered to do everything from editing to marketing for $5000 a month. I pointed out that $5000 a month is $60,000 a year or a new Porsche Boxter---every year. They said if I felt that way, I should by the Porsche.
Maybe I will. I'm driving a Bimmer and a Mini (with a 6 speed stick---It's a blast) right now so I'm not hurting for enjoyable driving.
In the meantime, I push this button and that button to see if I can move my books. It would be nice to have some reviews for each when I'm at table at Chicago's Comicon. I'm working on a graphic novel, also.
You say you're a decent editor. I have a book called The Unnamed Sword that I'll be working starting in late September. If you're up to it, I'll send a few chapters for you to play with.
Len
Len: $5k a month is waaaayyyy too much to pay for promoting an eBook. There's no way in hell that you'll ever earn that back unless it goes viral.Mini's are fun. I used to be on a pit crew for a guy who raced his back when BMC owned the marque. We never won anything, but had a hell of a lot of fun competing.
I'm up to my buns with my job as is. Writing is something I do on Sunday afternoons (well, MOST Sunday afternoons if I don't have social commitments). If I'm not writing, I'm working an ms for friends who will do the same for me when my next book is done. I'm afraid that I don't even have time for additional work, even if you offered that $5k to me (and it would be a bad investment -- I'm worth it [grin], but your book wouldn't benefit that much).
If I ever retire from AKW Books, I might have time for one paid job a month (no, not $5K, but I'd take it if you were dumb enough to pay it) just to cover the increase in the cost of living and gas that's plaguing all of us (let's not get into the sordid politics of it here). But I'd want to spend more time writing and marketing my own stuff.
HOWEVER, don't despair. There's at least one good SF/Fantasy workshop on line that might be your salvation. Critters Workshop (http://www.critters.org/) is the flagship of the bunch. But there are others if you prefer.
The workshop I belong to is strictly "hard" science fiction (Science Fiction Novelists) http://www.sfnovelist.com/index.htm. I'm afraid that I've become rather remiss in my participation even there because of my time constraints. Victory (our benevolent dictator) may throw my sorry ass out one of these days.
Mod
My question is: What type of editing do you get for your books, or ..."
You'll be surprised how far you can stretch your $ when you look around and ask. Try looking at this section I created for authors, which includes a thread on editors: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...
Al wrote: "Len: $5k a month is waaaayyyy too much to pay for promoting an eBook. There's no way in hell that you'll ever earn that back unless it goes viral.Mini's are fun. I used to be on a pit crew for a ..."
I was a navigator in a Cooper Mini and I spent most of time looking back down the road where we had been---out the front windshield.
Gene said "I don't give damn where the car is pointed. All I care about is where the front wheels were pointed."
We won one speed stage and were in third place when we rounded a bend and found five Indians taking a wiz in the middle of the road. We jumped a ditch, cut through five strands of barbed wire and ended in a field surrounded by Holstein cows. It was an adventure.
Interesting that you're in a group that writes hard science. I haven't seen much of that lately. What's been really, really, really rare are novels about the near future that aren't dystopias or time travel.
You knew of course about FDR (fusion rocket drive) that works in the laboratory in Redmond Washington and will be tested in space in 2020. If it works, it will travel to Mars in 30 days. With Boeing, NASA and a private corporation located not to far from Microsoft working on it, it has a better than average chance of working.
Or, forged composite carbon fiber thats many time stronger and tougher than steel, resistant to thousands of degrees of temperature, nearly as hard as diamond and lighter than aluminum?
In any case, they're in my novel Copernican Journey along with people like Martinus Beijerick (1851-1931) and Lorens Bass-Becking (1895-1963) who said, "Everything (organic life) is everywhere. The environment selects" and Stephane Udrey who said "Nature abhors a vacuum. If a planet can be there, there will be a planet there."
Ciao for now
Len
And, you're dead right about the $5000.
Len wrote: "Interesting that you're in a group that writes hard science. I haven't seen much of that lately. What's been really, really, really rare are novels about the near future that aren't dystopias or time travel. ..."Dystopia is selling hot right now (which means that by the time anyone else can get one written and on the market, it will be an "also ran".
Zombies are on the way out and vampires are passe'. Fads come and go. If you try to follow them, you'll just be a follower. Write what you love and wait for the next fad to be yours.
Thanks for the heads-up on the new stuff. All sorts of new discoveries are being made, but you just don't read about them any more because the lamestream media is full of politics and today's reporters are too stupid to understand anyway.
I have no idea how they'll contain a fusion reaction what with cold fusion being a hoax. But it will be interesting to find out.
Speaking of planets, did you hear about the two new trans-Plutonian planets? Small ones, but one's larger than Pluto. One article even speculated at some more giants further out (if so, its "year" would have to be measured in millennia).
"Zombies are on the way out and vampires are passe'."Al,
There's a new movie about Dracula coming out :)
The billionaire engineers and scientists are challenging all the old canards because they have the energy and the money to do it. Do I think FDR works. They say it does---in the laboratory. The big test will be the clincher. The apparatus weights 125 tons which means it must be fully assembled in orbit. The first technology that demands a space factory? And, it could be founded as early as the 2020's? How's that for changing all we thought we knew about the future?
Passive voice is my blind spot. I rarely notice in edited books or otherwise.
Preston wrote: ""Zombies are on the way out and vampires are passe'."Al,
There's a new movie about Dracula coming out :)"
So? There are still cop shows all over the place too, but police procedure BOOKS aren't burning up the sales charts. By the time the movie industry jumps onto a fad, the books are falling back to "normal" sales.
There will still be some sales for all genres because there are die-hard fans for just about everything. The big money is made for the one or two books that lead the charge into a new fad. Case in point: Wool by Hugh Howey, a really nice guy. Howey is a self-published phenomenon who produced a solid body of work, (most notably, his Molly Fyde series), over a decade or so before he knocked out Wool.
He wasn't enamored with Wool (a novelette), so he slapped on a cheap cover and threw it out at 99-cents to see what happened. It went viral. The rest is history because he was savvy enough to capitalize on the phenomenon and banged out enough other stories in a short time to produce a larger book that he could sell for a decent price.
It made him a LOT of money.
BTW, the original is available free as a "loss-leader" to get people hooked on the series.
Now, there are hundreds of "wanna be's" knocking out look-alikes, but none of them are cleaning up. It's Howey's pond and he owns it (along with the movie contract).
Same thing happened with Fifty Shades of Porn ... er ... I mean ... "Gray". Everyone and her grandma is publishing "50 Shades" titles in a vein (Vampire fans: please pardon the pun) attempt to capitalize on the success of that book (also a movie contract).
Lesson: You can still make a few shekels by following a fad, but the big bucks are made by leading it.
Political fiction may be on the way (don't know yet). I've noticed a small ramp up in sales for John Bowers' Starport series which is a combination of military science fiction with political overtones.
Unfortunately, the public taste is fickle and the "next fad" won't be known until it actually happens (unless you have a really good crystal ball - I don't). So, the best you can do is to write what lights your own fire and produce the best product you, and your support group of friends, editors, etc. can produce.
Len wrote: "The billionaire engineers and scientists are challenging all the old canards because they have the energy and the money to do it. Do I think FDR works. They say it does---in the laboratory. The big..."125 tons!!! Well, that explains how they intend to contain the reaction. Gamma radiation could be a real pain in space (that's why capsule walls in the space program have been so thin -- almost aluminum foil thin).
Sounds like a monster project. I assume it's a private operation? I can't see this administration spending money on it -- no political capital to be gained. They're certainly not making any noise about it.
Stuff like this really lights my pilot light.
My question is: What type of editing do you get for your books, or can you recommend just one for a new author?? Thanks!!