Diversity in All Forms! discussion
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The Hate U Give
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The Hate U Give by Angie Thomas (October 2017)
I’m kind of changing the subject here, but I have a question about the book. I found it interesting when the family sat down to eat and they prayed to Black Jesus. Is that a real thing or was the author being ironic? I had just not heard that before. I am a Christian and so that is one of the things that stood out to me. I think Jesus can be whatever color we need Him to be—He identifies with us. So I don’t find it sacrilege to pray to Black Jesus, but maybe a commentary on the white US church that has promulgated racism. Mea culpa, and a major part of why I find myself here.
Joy wrote: "I’m kind of changing the subject here, but I have a question about the book. I found it interesting when the family sat down to eat and they prayed to Black Jesus. Is that a real thing or was the a..."i was wondering about this too so i googled it, and all i got were results for a TV show on adult swim. so i would love someone to explain this to me :-P
Joy wrote: "I think Jesus can be whatever color we need Him to be—He identifies with us. So I don’t find it sacrilege to pray to Black Jesus, but maybe a commentary on the white US church that has promulgated racism."speaking specifically to this, as a child i went to a small Catholic school that was mostly white, although i had hispanic, asian, and black classmates as well. we played basketball against another catholic school that was probably 99+% black, and in their lobby they had a black virgin mary. the grandmother of one of my friends was apparently very upset about it!
I have heard of black Mary and have seen pictures of Black Jesus, Just not heard anyone pray to Black Jesus specifically. Historical Jesus was probably much darker skinned than all the light skinned, light haired pictures of Him I saw growing up, so I’m not arguing about that. I was just curious about the prayers, if that was unique to these characters or if there was some reference I was missing. When I attend a local mostly black congregation, they pray to Jesus or God or the Lord, but don’t specify Black Jesus so that’s new to me.
Kay Dee wrote: "well until like 2000 something i thought there were no black people in the UK. only Indian and Pakistani were then on whites in the UK. why? the BBC shows. no black folks."I thought the same thing when I realized Afro-Latinx people exist, and I'm Latina myself! This is why representation matters: It's important to see both yourself and people who are different from you reflected in the media you consume.
On a related tangent, I wonder how much of an effect the siloing of POC media has had on people. When I was growing up, you could turn on any of the major networks and watch The Cosbys or A Different World or Living Single. Most people had access to, and could accidentally come across, media featuring POC. Now you have to seek it out and a lot of people won't seek out media that doesn't reflect them. I think that leaves us with a vacuum where we have more room to buy into violent and negative stereotypes because there isn't much out there to counter those narratives.
Starr also touched on the idea of how we represent people, and there was a lot of talk around this when Mike Brown died. We can choose photos that are consistent with the narrative being told, but those are often inconsistent with the life the person led. I think Harvey Weinstein is a good example here: A lot of the stories about him are featuring photos of him dressed in suits and at awards shows, looking polished and professional. They're not using candid photos of him dressed sloppily or looking rough, but most POC don't receive that kind of courtesy from the media. There's a huge class bias in how we choose to characterize people.
One thing I love about this book is the parents. Too often in YA lit the parents are absent or inept. I love the way this author portrays family life in the midst of tragedy.
Joy wrote: "I have heard of black Mary and have seen pictures of Black Jesus, Just not heard anyone pray to Black Jesus specifically. Historical Jesus was probably much darker skinned than all the light skin..."
me too. i have heard people say baby Jesus but not black Jesus. i saw folks with pics of a black Jesus or a black nativity or a Black Mary.
Jesus was a Jew in Israel so he was definitely brown and not white. but the pics i saw of black Jesus and the nativity were very dark skinned. the families that had the pics also wore dashikis and had other things like that in the houses. they had Afros when Afros were not in style (1980's and 90's). but i never heard them refer to Jesus as Black Jesus.
Joy wrote: "One thing I love about this book is the parents. Too often in YA lit the parents are absent or inept. I love the way this author portrays family life in the midst of tragedy."yes. in most YA parents are the WORST. although she might not have written this esp geared for YA. a lot of times publishers decide to market a book as YA because they think it will sell better or because the protagonist is young.
Esse wrote: "They're not using candid photos of him dressed sloppily or looking rough, but most POC don't receive that kind of courtesy from the media. There's a huge class bias in how we choose to characterize people.."i noticed he looked grumpy or was scowling in the pics i saw. but he was in a suit or tux in each one. glad that NOW black twitter calls out the media about their pics with a quickness.
Joy wrote: "I’m kind of changing the subject here, but I have a question about the book. I found it interesting when the family sat down to eat and they prayed to Black Jesus. Is that a real thing or was the a..."Hi Joy. I'll try to answer your question about Black Jesus. I have usually heard the term used in comedy or satirical shows where a black family would pray to Black Jesus. I don't know of any but there may be families that actually pray to Black Jesus. Growing up my family never said Black Jesus we just said Jesus. However, my parents do have pictures in their home with Jesus depicted as a black man. I'm not sure if they actually believe he was a black man.
Historically in the South, Christianity was seen by some African-Americans as a white slaveholder's religion in the sense that white slaveholders said that black people were destined to be slaves according to the Bible. All the pictures of Jesus showed a white man and enslaved people were sometimes made or forced to become Christian. Because of this there are some African-Americans who are not Christians because of this history, some have chosen to become Black Muslims which is a more black nationalist religion. Those African-Americans that remained Christian probably assume that he was black. A lot of this is probably a cultural thing. People who don't see themselves represented in society tend to imagine that important figures look like them.
Esse wrote: "Kay Dee wrote: "well until like 2000 something i thought there were no black people in the UK. only Indian and Pakistani were then on whites in the UK. why? the BBC shows. no black folks."I thoug..."
I will follow-up on Esse's point about how people are represented in pictures. When Trayvon Martin was killed all of the pictures that were in the news was of him smiling in a red shirt and that was juxtaposed with George Zimmerman's (the murderer) mugshot picture. When the narrative changed and people started calling Trayvon a thug and that he probably deserved to die we then started seeing a picture of him in a hoodie looking kind of stern and mean and it was juxtaposed with a picture of Zimmerman in a suit and tie, smiling, and a few pounds slimmer. The hoodie picture played on people's fear of black men being thugs. The strange part was that people were sympathetic to Trayvon initially after the murder but public opinion changed once the new "information" came out. Ta-Nehisi Coates talks a little bit about this in his essay "Fear of A Black President" https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/....
Raymond wrote: "Joy wrote: "I’m kind of changing the subject here, but I have a question about the book. I found it interesting when the family sat down to eat and they prayed to Black Jesus. Is that a real thing ..."Thanks for explaining, Raymond.
I watched some of the Martin Luther King videos this morning. I’m ashamed to say that apart from the I Have a Dream speech I never knew much about what he said. His words were educational and enlightening.
After reading this book I think I will be slower to judge people based on their media portrayals.
Joy wrote: "Raymond wrote: "Joy wrote: "I’m kind of changing the subject here, but I have a question about the book. I found it interesting when the family sat down to eat and they prayed to Black Jesus. Is th..."I would highly, highly recommend parting the waters if you'd like to learn more about MLK and the civil rights movement. It is a long book but fantastic.
Tippy wrote: "Joy wrote: "Raymond wrote: "Joy wrote: "I’m kind of changing the subject here, but I have a question about the book. I found it interesting when the family sat down to eat and they prayed to Black ..."I agree with Tippy. Very long book but its good. Joy, you might also want to read some of his sermons. Someone mention in a podcast recently Strength to Love. I haven't read it but its on my list.
Parting the Waters: Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights Movement 1954-63 oh my. over 1000 pages. i am gonna search libraries to see if one has it on audio. my lib has the book series but i know i would never read that much nonfic.
Kay Dee wrote: "Parting the Waters: Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights Movement 1954-63 oh my. over 1000 pages. i am gonna search libraries to see if one has it on audio. my lib has the book seri..."Actually, if you take out all of the notes and references, it's only 922 pages. LOL- that's better though right? It's all really good.
Audio book is a great idea! My hands get tired holding that huge book for too long! Anyway, I'm planning on picking up the next two in the trilogy soon.
Got it on Kindle - looking forward to reading it!
i wanted to share this with the group. Aaron Bailey was pulled over by police and then fled the scene (we do not know why he was pulled over). He later crashed his car and was incapacitated; despite this, officers fired 11 shots through the back of his car, some of which hit him and killed him. he was unarmed. recently, the special prosecutor decided not to indict. however, our police chief has suspended them and is calling for themto be fired:https://www.indystar.com/story/news/c...
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Kay Dee (what is your storygraph name?
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rated it 4 stars
Tippy wrote: "Actually, if you take out all of the notes and references, it's only 922 pages. LOL- that's better though right? It's all really good. "haha okay. audio if possible. and how heavy is it? 5 pounds? lol
Kristina wrote: "i wanted to share this with the group. Aaron Bailey was pulled over by police and then fled the scene (we do not know why he was pulled over). He later crashed his car and was incapacitated; despit..."Kristina, these incidents happen day after day and it is despicable that no police officer faces legal consequences.
Kathy wrote: "Kristina wrote: "i wanted to share this with the group. Aaron Bailey was pulled over by police and then fled the scene (we do not know why he was pulled over). He later crashed his car and was inca..."yes, it's very frustrating. at the very least these two might lose their jobs. there's a seven person committee that might be meeting on the matter as soon as tomorrow.
Kristina wrote: "Kathy wrote: "Kristina wrote: "i wanted to share this with the group. Aaron Bailey was pulled over by police and then fled the scene (we do not know why he was pulled over). He later crashed his ca..."So... my unarmed classmate was shot in the head by a police officer. He wasn't even after her. He shot wildly into their vehicle...he was after a friend of hers. The officer had over 20 previously documented accounts of excessive force, including beating a guy so bloody they wouldn't take him at the jail and once he punched a woman in the stomach... while she was handcuffed to a bench in the hall of justice. After all of this he was still promoted several times and was even chief of police for a while.
My brother, an Iraq war veteran, has said that they had stricter criteria/consequences for shooting in Iraq- in a freaking war zone!! - than we have here for cops shooting our own citizens.
Here's my review of the book:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Tippy wrote: "Kristina wrote: "Kathy wrote: "Kristina wrote: "i wanted to share this with the group. Aaron Bailey was pulled over by police and then fled the scene (we do not know why he was pulled over). He lat..."I'm sorry to hear about your classmate, Tippy. My best wishes for your own safety out there.
Esse wrote: "Tippy wrote: "Kristina wrote: "Kathy wrote: "Kristina wrote: "i wanted to share this with the group. Aaron Bailey was pulled over by police and then fled the scene (we do not know why he was pulled..."Thanks Esse. There was a lot about this case that was screwed up. The officers involved immediately went to see their union lawyers- before they were even debriefed of the incident, which is against protocol. They also sat and talked to each other for a while after it happened- again, in violation of protocol. Things were left out of the report, or seemingly important things- like conflicting eye witness accounts- were buried in the report and left out of the summary. Another example- the cop had claimed that the driver was trying to run him over with his car, and therefore his life was in danger- but there were no bullet holes in the front of the car, only the side and the back. That was also missing. Everything was super shady. Every time I see a shooting or other violence I see this over and over again. It doesn't matter the time or place it's the same.
Within hours after her death, her name was badmouthed all of the media. They claimed "she was no innocent victim. She was trying to live the hiphop lifestyle." Really? She deserved to die?
The guy they were after had skipped a court date for drug charges. Even if they hit their target, does he deserve to die?
As you can imagine, this book really hit home for me :-)
This was all in 1998. We're approaching the 20 year anniversary of her death and things still haven't changed one bit. And of course, this has been going on for decades before this too.
Here are some of my favorite articles on the topic:
https://www.propublica.org/article/ye...
https://www.laprogressive.com/stop-po...
And the following one... this article is about policing for profit- which is a very important topic that needs to be considered for reducing police harassment and violence. There are many brilliant articles out there, I just like this one for its tone.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2...
Tippy wrote: "My brother, an Iraq war veteran, has said that they had stricter criteria/consequences for shooting in Iraq- in a freaking war zone!! - than we have here for cops shooting our own citizens."my brother in law said the same thing. smh.
Angie Thomas, the author of The Hate U Give, has announced the title of her next book. It is: On The Come Up (Angie Thomas Teen Novel #2).
Raymond wrote: "Angie Thomas, the author of The Hate U Give, has announced the title of her next book. It is: On The Come Up (Angie Thomas Teen Novel #2)."Thank you for the information!
Mod
That is awesome! Do you know if any of the same characters are in it?
Mariah wrote: "Raymond wrote: "Angie Thomas, the author of The Hate U Give, has announced the title of her next book. It is: On The Come Up (Angie Thomas Teen Novel #2)."That is awesome! Do you ..."
On Twitter she says that it will be an "entirely new book" but in the same neighborhood (Garden Heights).
Do you know when it's coming out? I thought that "The Hate U Give" was outstanding and I look forward to reading her next book.
Lisa wrote: "Do you know when it's coming out? I thought that "The Hate U Give" was outstanding and I look forward to reading her next book."The expected publication date is May 1, 2018.
On my birthday. I hope it's a lucky day for her book.
Mod
https://bookriot.com/2017/12/01/the-h...The Hate U Give has been banned from the Katy Independent School District in Texas.
Kristina wrote: "https://bookriot.com/2017/12/01/the-h...The Hate U Give has been banned from the Katy Independent School District in Texas."
Thanks for sharing. Its sad that this has happened but I'm glad to see that teachers in the school district are going to read it. The upside is that more people may end up reading it because of the ban.
Kristina wrote: "https://bookriot.com/2017/12/01/the-h...The Hate U Give has been banned from the Katy Independent School District in Texas."
From what I read about Texas policies on text books, it's not a surprise.
Mod
The Hate U Give has been banned from the Katy Independent School District in Texas."
From what I read about Texas policies..."
I'd love to hear about their policies on textbooks. Do you have any information to pass along.
Also, I wonder what else that school has banned...
Mariah wrote: I'd love to hear about their policies on textbooks. Do you have any information to pass along.Also, I wonder what else that school has banned...
that's the only article i've seen on it but if i find others i'll pass it along!
Mariah wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Kristina wrote: "https://bookriot.com/2017/12/01/the-h...The Hate U Give has been banned from the Katy Independent School District in Texas."
From what I read about T..."
Mariah, here is a good piece on Texas textbooks: http://www.houstonpress.com/news/5-re...
Mariah wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Kristina wrote: "https://bookriot.com/2017/12/01/the-h...The Hate U Give has been banned from the Katy Independent School District in Texas."
From what I read about T..."
The Katy School District that banned THUG also banned The Fashion Disaster that Changed my Life in 2007. The following books were challenged by the district but not banned: Beloved in 2008, and Alice Alone & Patiently Alice in 2006.
Sources: https://www.aclutx.org/sites/default/..., https://www.aclutx.org/sites/default/..., https://www.aclutx.org/sites/default/...
I don't know if this is appropriate on this thread, but here goes.I am reading Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West. That led me to eugenics, which led me to scientific racism.
Has anyone read about the eugenics movement which was popularized by American scientists and taken up by the Nazis?
In looking up that subject, I found this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scien...
Wow.
aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "In looking up that subject, I found this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scien...Wow...."
Wow. is. right.
I think The hate u give is a great book for kids to read in school. I can't believe its been banned by schools in Texas. Here's the articlehttps://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyle...
It's not surprising. Texas has banned a lot of good books in their schools and have controlled textbooks not allowing discussion of evolution. The Hate U Give is in good company.
Mod
They don't do book about evolution at all?
No they don't and they control the textbook industry for the whole country. It's very scary.
Mod
Wow! That is something I definitely didn't know about!
I enjoyed this author interview. It made me like this book even more. https://www.goodreads.com/interviews/...
Joy wrote: "I enjoyed this author interview. It made me like this book even more. https://www.goodreads.com/interviews/..."thanks for the link!
Diversity in All Forms!
Books mentioned in this topic
Copper Sun (other topics)Detour for Emmy (other topics)
Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West (other topics)
The Fashion Disaster that Changed my Life (other topics)
Alice Alone (other topics)
More...
That's so funny, well maybe not funny. Strange. But you're absolutely right! Wonder if we have any Brits reading who can explain this phenomenon to Americans, who have been beating ourselves up over our brand of discrimination.