Diversity in All Forms! discussion
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The Hate U Give
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The Hate U Give by Angie Thomas (October 2017)
Raymond wrote: "Martin Luther King said it best "The riot is the language of the unheard"...Great point, Raymond. Couldn't agree more. Think this racism thing after all this time, with all the connectedness we have around the world now, is absurd, and has everything to do with economics. You'd think white people were having bread taken out of their mouths...but no! It is simply that they want more and don't like it when others ask why they should have more...considering they are just one person/race among many.
Listening now to Grant, and Chernow is speaking of Braxton Bragg and what a crappy officer he was, fighting for the Confederates. And yet! and yet we have a critical army base named after him. Why IS this? Who had that bright idea? The institutional racism is everywhere and must be acknowledged, talked about, and rooted out, once and for all.
Really liked the article you posted as well. Thought it said something about the despair, and "it's not my community" thing. I wonder...how long it would take, if ever, for them to turn around their attitudes if they just didn't have to deal with that pervasive distrust anymore.
Trish wrote: "Raymond wrote: "Martin Luther King said it best "The riot is the language of the unheard"...Great point, Raymond. Couldn't agree more. Think this racism thing after all this time, with all the co..."
How is the Grant book? I read one by Ronald White (American Ulysses: A Life of Ulysses S. Grant) this year that I enjoyed.
Yeah I think the distrust will go away once everyone is on a somewhat more equal playing field. Whether that will ever happen is anyone's guess.
Looks almost impossible, doesn't it? Who would ever have thought it would take so long...Grant book is detailed, I suppose because it really wasn't THAT long ago, and the records are pretty abundant. Grant had terrible luck coming up in his youth, and a wicked flaw--alcohol (just a drop would set him on a binge)--but it made him unassuming, humble, and remarkably steady in conflict. These characteristics, paired with a brilliant logistical mind, led to great successes in a time of war. He was a terrible judge of character, however, and although he could tell when his opponents were not up to the task, he was an easy touch for people who treated him with a false kindness and lied to him.
aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "whether it was about the Puerto Rican/Irish/Asian gangs of earlier times, or the black neighborhoods of today - why do siloed redlined communities tend to destroy their own communities during riots?.."me too!!! i mean if yu omad at folks, then go to their neighborhood and tear stuff up. why tear up your own neighborhood???!!!1 makes no snese. mobs with no real purpose normally don't. like the winning cities in college championships tearing up their towns in "celebration."
aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "Thank you, Raymond. But the article does not explain the situation adequately for me. Many local businesses in black neighborhoods are black-owned, employing black people. They are burned down, too..."ah, yet the world says there is no need for a feminist movement. in cultured modern countries women are free and equal. and by world i mean men.
The rioting seems like an expression of desperation and frustration but not one that's thought out. In this book, it seemed to happen spontaneously.
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Raymond wrote: "Martin Luther King said it best "The riot is the language of the unheard". Here is a video of King being interviewed by Mike Wallace. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_ehN..."but that quote came from this speech.
http://www.thekingcenter.org/archive/...
http://www.crmvet.org/docs/otheram.htm
https://youtu.be/dOWDtDUKz-U
where he also said
Let me say as I've always said, and I will always continue to say, that riots are socially destructive and self-defeating. I'm still convinced that nonviolence is the most potent weapon available to oppressed people in their struggle for freedom and justice. I feel that violence will only create more social problems than they will solve. That in a real sense it is impracticable for the Negro to even think of mounting a violent revolution in the United States. So I will continue to condemn riots, and continue to say to my brothers and sisters that this is not the way. And continue to affirm that there is another way.
But at the same time, it is as necessary for me to be as vigorous in condemning the conditions which cause persons to feel that they must engage in riotous activities as it is for me to condemn riots. I think America must see that riots do not develop out of thin air. Certain conditions continue to exist in our society which must be condemned as vigorously as we condemn riots. But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity. And so in a real sense our nation's summers of riots are caused by our nation's winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention. ...
I was privileged to hear Dr. King speak in person several times during the 1960's. He was always a very eloquent speaker and this passage that you quote is no exception.
With regard to the rioting question, I agree with others that much more about frustration and lack of leadership than it is about protest. And while there are many parallels between people of different ethnicities who share a lower socioeconomic status, I'd encourage you to think about the privilege that comes with passing as White or being White. I don't want to give anyone a wall of text to read, but when someone is a minority (and especially a visible minority), we're often thinking about so many things on a daily basis about keeping ourselves and our loved ones safe that it's absolutely exhausting. And we've often had some pretty negative experiences that stay with us, leave us loath to trust the authorities, and worry about how vulnerable we are without access to authorities. It's a daily grind that really wears you down over time and I can see how that level of daily stress can lead to people being so fed up that they'll riot.
I think the NFL protests are a great example. I'll let the meme illustrate the point:
I don't condone it, and it certainly doesn't accomplish what it intends to, but I can absolutely see why people riot.
Esse wrote: "With regard to the rioting question, I agree with others that much more about frustration and lack of leadership than it is about protest. And while there are many parallels between people of diffe..."Exactly. Or like how Trevor Noah put it, "You still haven't told us the right way for black ppl to protest. We know it's wrong to do it in the streets, it's wrong to do it in the tweets. You cannot do it on the field. You cannot do it if you've kneeled. And don't do it if you're rich, you ungrateful son of a b****. B/c if there's one thing that's a fact, you cannot protest if you're black."
And so what does that leave if you condemn us for protesting the right way? Well, it leads ppl to do it the wrong way.
Angela wrote: "Esse wrote: "With regard to the rioting question, I agree with others that much more about frustration and lack of leadership than it is about protest. And while there are many parallels between pe..."i am loving that quote. ah, mr. noah, so smart and true yet still funny.
Great comments. I think Esse tells it "...when someone is a minority (and especially a visible minority), we're often thinking about so many things on a daily basis about keeping ourselves and our loved ones safe that it's absolutely exhausting..." And Trevor Noah, bless his soul. His delivery of the most truthful in-yr-face comebacks is still funny. How he learned to do that...in a country with so many discrete categories for "other"... amazes.
what an excellent read! i kind of want to buy twenty copies of this and donate it to my old HS on the condition that they have to read it for class. i seriously want everyone i know to read this book, to help them identify their own internalized racism and get a better grip on the much more complicated issues surrounding the epidemic of shooting unarmed black men that you don't see on the evening news. this was amazing and i'm so glad to have read it.
Speaking of Trevor Noah, I post a link here of his show last night in Chicago. The reason I am posting it is that I wish you would look at his audience--is anyone else surprised that his audience is almost entirely white?
No I'm not surprised. I'm black and while loved his book I don't watch his show and I don't know any black who do watch it. I used to watch Larry Wilmore he was very popular in my community. Late night isn't really popular in the black community.
Erin wrote: "No I'm not surprised. I'm black and while loved his book I don't watch his show and I don't know any black who do watch it. I used to watch Larry Wilmore he was very popular in my community. Late n..."That does surprise me, not that anyone working watches it when broadcast, but because the humor is so critical for me to deal with the indignities of this (or any) presidency. That must mean SNL also, though that is more racially mixed now and is on a station one doesn't have to pay to watch.
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Kristina wrote: "what an excellent read! i kind of want to buy twenty copies of this and donate it to my old HS on the condition that they have to read it for class. i seriously want everyone i know to read this bo..."where i live, it was on the suggested Summer reading list for high schools.
Trish wrote: "Speaking of Trevor Noah, I post a link here of his show last night in Chicago. The reason I am posting it is that I wish you would look at his audience--is anyone else surprised that his audience i..."I am not too surprised. I live in the Chicago area and the tickets were expensive and hard to get. By the time we even found out about them, the tickets were long gone. You're talking about a metropolitan area of about 8million people.
Lisa wrote: "Trish wrote: "Speaking of Trevor Noah, I post a link here of his show last night in Chicago. The reason I am posting it is that I wish you would look at his audience--is anyone else surprised that ..."yes, by the time i even knew he was speaking in my area the tickets were sold out months in advance.
Wow. But he is planning to be there, delivering live, for a week. I would have thought there would be enough to go around, but it looks like the theatre is a good size for live comedy--intimate enough. Interesting. Wonder what he thinks about it. Will ask via twitter, I think.
It's one of our oldest community theaters. It's not huge though. It probably seats a few hundred people.
Trish wrote: "The reason I am posting it is that I wish you would look at his audience--is anyone else surprised that his audience i..."Hm, that's interesting. I wonder if part of it is that POCs have their own community for support and/or don't have the energy to be dealing with news reports on top of actual events, while white people are a bit farther removed and seem to like the community of news/commentary watching. That's all just idle speculation, though.
I know I tried to get tickets in my area, but they were either sold out or quite expensive, even though he was here for a few solid days.
It reminded me of To Kill a Mockingbird. Eighty years later (After Mockingbird's setting). In regards to the jury - different time, same bullshit.
Esse wrote: "Hm, that's interesting. I wonder if part of it is that POCs have their own community for support and/or don't have the energy to be dealing with news reports on top of actual events..."Excellent surmise. Or, because it is midweek, they have early starts in the a.m. & don't feel as comfortable about the possibility of being late/tired to work.
I just started this book last night and will read the comments later. So far I’m finding it engaging and I like Star a lot.
Very insightful conversation here. I’m only about 20% in but I’m hooked.Someone mentioned above that they didn’t know to whom they would recommend this book. I would recommend it first to my 18
& 22 yo daughters who both enjoy YA and who have hearts of compassion for all people. Then maybe my high school aged nieces who enjoy reading. I believe change begins with me and my household. If my attitude can change—if I can approach others with a desire to listen and learn, and teach my children and those in my sphere of influence to do the same, well that’s a start to create the world I want to live in.
Joy wrote: "Very insightful conversation here. I’m only about 20% in but I’m hooked.Someone mentioned above that they didn’t know to whom they would recommend this book. I would recommend it first to my 18
&..."
Well said, Joy!!
Esse wrote: "Hm, that's interesting. I wonder if part of it is that POCs..."I think I understand better this issue of Trevor Noah's audience being mostly white. Noah was invited to speak last week with NYT reporter John Eligon at a conference at Northwestern Univ. It occurred to me that his greatest gift to us is explaining a black viewpoint to white America.
I say that because while he helps black Americans look at themselves and their culture, Noah himself identifies as black, and therefore doesn't need to explain anything there. He does have a way of deconstructing white viewpoints that exposes any underlying falsity, something he apparently learned from old Malcolm X and James Baldwin videos. Interesting.
Noah is a kind of intermediary that gives us (all of us--blacks and whites) the distance with which to view this problem we have created for ourselves: a racist America.
The good news is that he has a big following among white Americans, which hopefully presages changes in attitudes.
I doubt it. I think the people who watch Trevor Noah have a more open attitude about race in the first place.
Lisa wrote: "I doubt it. I think the people who watch Trevor Noah have a more open attitude about race in the first place."U could B right. But think positively. After all, even those of us who agree with him need to unlearn a lot of bad attitudes & learn some new ones.
Also have you noticed this new wave of trying to redefine the word racist? If you point out someone's racism they somehow become the aggrieved party and act like calling them a racist is racial slur... Idk if they truly don't realize their own bigotry or if they're just playing dumb b/c they know their life will be over if they officially admit they're racist. I think it might be a bit of both. That's the unfortunate situation we're in and have been in since the Civil Rights Movement. MLK and others made it so that it was no longer socially acceptable to be an admitted racist, so ppl like Nixon and Reagan began using the "coded language" we see today. I put coded language in quotations b/c let's be honest, it's so obvious who they're talking about and what they're insinuating. It allowed the continuation of racist speech and discriminatory policy while claiming innocence b/c you didn't literally say black ppl or the n-word.
Thanks to them the discussion of racism has become even more infuriating b/c now every time someone points out that what another person just said was racist they then deny it and use words like "race card" and "reverse racist" to shut down the whole conversation. It's like we can't even prove racism anymore b/c they've redefined the image of a racist as someone who is a literal KKK member that uses racial slurs. It also makes me mad that these same ppl are the ones who claim they "love" MLK and the Civil Rights Movement yet ironically or unironically condemn Kaepernick and BLM.
Yes, I have noticed it with other words as well...the right seems determined to claim "patriotism," "liberty," "freedom," and even--the brazenness of it--"discrimination." Don't want to be a one note Betty, but did a deep dive today on Trevor Noah, and came up with a really brilliant skit he did at the end of a v. long show in South Africa in which he called out people for using the k-word, which equates to using the n-word in America. I give you the end of that show and the clip that beats back the night. Enjoy.
what happens to me a lot is when i call someone out for being racist, or sexist, they turn back on me and say i'm racist/sexist for pointing it out in the first place. like they 'don't see color' so i'm racist for even noticing the race of people involved in the first place.
Kristina wrote: "what happens to me a lot is when i call someone out for being racist, or sexist, they turn back on me and say i'm racist/sexist for pointing it out in the first place. like they 'don't see color' s..."Colorblind ideology is a way to maintain racism, but to sound "not racist" while doing so.
Angela wrote: "Also have you noticed this new wave of trying to redefine the word racist? If you point out someone's racism they somehow become the aggrieved party and act like calling them a racist is racial slu..."Angela's last point about people loving MLK but condemning BLM is so true. Because in reality those who condemn BLM would more than likely have condemned MLK and the civil rights movement. I read an article recently that showed that support for civil rights has never been popular. Here it is: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/t...
@Trish I really like his standup. Trevor Noah also went on the View some months ago and talked about it. He mentioned how apartheid was overt racism kind of like how America used to be but that in the 60s America changed and started being more "subtle" with the racism. Don't know how to link it on here but you can probably find it on youtube.@Kristina I know right? It's ridiculous. Colorblindness isn't even a thing. You know they're lying b/c of all the outrage they have over women wanting equal pay or a lot of issues regarding black, Latino, middle eastern ppls proves they're not so colorblind after all. Even if they were I wish ppl like that would realize it's not a good thing b/c if they're claiming colorblindness in a world that acknowledges white supremacy then they would only be adding to the problem b/c they claim they can't see the problem.
In the art of argument, the first and second rules should be not to be distracted into side streets, and to stick to your point. I read somewhere, if sticking to the main point means repeating your initial sentence continuously while ignoring the side argument thrown up like sand tossed into your eyes, then keep repeating your main point over and over while refusing to give ground.Why try to answer side issues, like whether you see colors or not? We all see colors of skin - even the color-blind (my husband is in fact, considered fully color blind with both red and green blindness, the worst, and he can see the difference between real dark and light, but yet he cannot tell if mulattos are white or of a different race, strange as that may seem, but it is what it is).
We react to sidebar and jumps of thought because of the customary media statements and emotion, but tell yourself to stick to the first discussion. For example, trying to swim the emotionally-loaded water of whether we see color of skin metaphorically or physically is guaranteed to tangle your tongue and send the argument into a swamp of embarrassment, lies and assumptions. Racists ALWAYs reverse or step sideways -stop, take a breathe, and remember the subject is the real racist in front of you or the person’s apparent racism just revealed is the subject, not your failures at trying NOT to be a racist. Don’t let go of the fact you are working at not being a racist when you are arguing with a racist, say something like, “I am working at not being a racist, but you are so obviously not!”
Angela wrote: " Even if they were I wish ppl like that would realize it's not a good thing b/c if they're claiming colorblindness in a world that acknowledges white supremacy then they would only be adding to the problem b/c they claim they can't see the problem. ..."Yeah, great point. I'm afraid I come down now on the side of Ta-nehisi Coates that we are not going to "pretend we don't see" our way out of this. Way past time to talk it out.
Since black people are those discriminated against, it is going to have to be white people who talk it out--not just their own issues--but the issues black people face. It would help if they read a lot and understood what we have to lose if they don't make an attempt to fix it.
I personally would love it if the black athletes responsible for white people loving football started to make them "experience the burn" by withholding their favorite sports. If only it didn't impact the athletes' wealth and stature so severely...Once again we are asking the ones hurt by this interchange to fix it.
Trish wrote: "Lisa wrote: "I doubt it. I think the people who watch Trevor Noah have a more open attitude about race in the first place."U could B right. But think positively. After all, even those of us who a..."
Yes Trish. You're right about that.
aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "Racists ALWAYs reverse or step sideways -stop, take a breath, and remember the subject is the real racist in front of you or the person’s apparent racism just revealed is the subject, not your failures at trying NOT to be a racist...."So right about that. Thing is, we're all going to make mistakes as we find a way to talk about race & sometimes it is probably going to hurt sensitivities on one side or the other. (Not talking about dyed-in-the-wool racists here but ordinary folks who are confused.) But gradually we will hammer out what we understand to be true & fair, and as long as we're still listening & trying to understand, hope remains.
aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: In the art of argument, the first and second rules should be not to be distracted into side streets, and to stick to your point. ... say something like, “I am working at not being a racist, but you are so obviously not!”...good point. those side issues distract us so easily. that and emotions.
Trish wrote: ...Once again we are asking the ones hurt by this interchange to fix it.
yes. so tired of that but looking at history it seems to be the only way.
HATE when folks say they are colorblind or don't see color. it's such a lie. esp if you were raised in the USA. it'd be different if we were a small country/island and almost everybody looked alike. but this is the USA, a country of immigrants from all across the globe. we are all very different . you cannot help but notice it.
Kay Dee wrote: "HATE when folks say they are colorblind or don't see color. it's such a lie..."Too right. Imagine if someone said "Gee I never noticed you were a woman [or a man]." Come on. I bet they did, and moreover, made a bunch of assumptions on the basis of it.
Trish wrote: "Too right. Imagine if someone said "Gee I never noticed you were a woman [or a man]." Come on. I bet they did, and moreover, made a bunch of assumptions on the basis of it. "yes. folks just scared to admit they have unconscious bias. we all have it. and we all make snap judgments based on how a person looks. are they rich/poor? educated? nice? a mother? etc.
if you don't acknowledge that bias then how can you actively fight against it.This is simply controlling your emotions and thinking. they call it mindfulness now. whateves. you can't do it if you don't first acknowledge your prejudice.
racists actively do things against those they have wrong perceptions about. they think their bias is right and justified. prejudice makes perfect sense to them and doesn't seem at all morally wrong.
the fact you have a bias doesn't make you a racists or sexist, it makes you human. i think that is why folks don't admit to having them.
i know i have issues. thanks to years of customer service training, i can see them most of the time. i work to treat everyone fairly. i try not to treat this particular man badly even though he reminds me of 10 other men who dressed like him, spoke similar to him, and who did not treat me with respect. but if was all "oh i don't see color, or sex, or class, etc. i have no prejudices." then i would not fight my preconceptions or acknowledge them and my actions would show it.
Kay Dee wrote: "we all make snap judgments based on how a person looks...."Exactly. Zadie Smith and Ta-Nehisi Coates at different times said it is language that makes a difference in perceptions of another while the obvious one, color, makes the first impression. If only words worked effectively with armed police. Not talking about the police who are obviously racist, but the ones who are afraid.
Chris Abani, an American citizen formerly of Nigeria, said when he is stopped Driving While Black, sometimes police appear almost offended to hear his British accent.
Trish wrote: "Chris Abani, an American citizen formerly of Nigeria, said when he is stopped Driving While Black, sometimes police appear almost offended to hear his British accent. "well until like 2000 something i thought there were no black people in the UK. only Indian and Pakistani were then on whites in the UK. why? the BBC shows. no black folks. i was always confused by the black actors with English accents. i thought "they must be from the islands." then i actually listened to them and i was like "wait there are more than like 10 black people in England???!!! so how come none of them are on the BBC shows? they were never on the BBC news clips i saw either. even the shows set in present day, no black folks. i mean they were not even in the background.
then i found Luther (only cuz he got famous in the movies though!)and this old show called Chef! now that we have access to many more BBC shows, there might be more but i really thought they didn't keep any of their slaves and sent them back to Africa or the islands. i don't watch many BBC shows i have seen only a few. i first found them thanks to PBS. now that we remake everything i have seen more but still... all those murder mystery shows. so it's bad here. but it must be worse in the UK. they are not even on TV!
My favorite response to the "I don't see color" cliché is from our favorite comedian who keeps coming up in this discussion Trevor Noah. Noah said: "You don’t see color? So what do you do at a traffic light?”.
Great anology! I think that people who say that they "don't see color" are deluding themselves; they want to excuse their own race-related behavior. Those of us who see color difference and don't care about it don't need to comment on it.
Diversity in All Forms!
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https://youtu.be/uVvbh2_Oh94"
Thanks for sharing the video. Ironically someone told me to watch the video last month and I never got around to do so.