Japanese Light Novel Book Club discussion
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Localization from Japanese language
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By the way, I would feel strange from localization for Japanese where a not Japanese character says, "こんにちは、ボブさん" (Hi, Bob-san) because I know people don't use such honorific in English in everyday life. Even if Bob is the character's boss and the book is written in Japanese, I'd feel natural from just "ボブ" (Bob) in the case. So I expect above my question will be answered, "not strange".
In many Japanese -> English novel translations (like Ring), I don't often see honorifics in Japanese used. In fact, I can't remember the last time, I saw an honorific in a translated Japanese novel (manga, yes, but not novels). I'm reading The Devotion of Suspect X and I haven't seen an honorific yet. No honorifics are used in Brave Story either. In fact, I don't see many greetings in dialogue. They usually skip them or use narrative summary.
Alex wrote: "In many Japanese -> English novel translations (like Ring), I don't often see honorifics in Japanese used. In fact, I can't remember the last time, I saw an honorific in a translated J..."I know Devotion of Suspect X because I've watched the movie version before. Then, does Ishigami call Hanaoka Yasuko just Yasuko and does she call him just Tetsuya? Plus, would you feel strange if you saw Hanaoka-san or Ishigami-san in the book?
Fanta wrote: "I know Devotion of Suspect X because I've watched the movie version before. Then, does Ishigami call Hanaoka Yasuko just Yasuko and does she call him just Tetsuya? Plus, would you feel strange if you saw Hanaoka-san or Ishigami-san in the book?"I'm only 25 pages in and they haven't met each other yet, so I don't know how the two main characters address each other, but the narrator refers to Hanaoka Yasuko as "Yasuko" (btw, one of my aunts is named "Yasuko" ^_^) and Ishigami Tetsuya as "Ishigami". What do they do in the original Japanese? How does using the family name vs. the personal name affect the Japanese reader?
It wouldn't be terribley odd if the honorifics were used, but I'm used to names without them.
Alex wrote: "What do they do in the original Japanese? How does using the family name vs. the personal name affect the Japanese reader?"Considering their relationship, they should call each other Hanaoka-san and Ishigami-san in Japanese. Among Japanese people, they call someone its personal name just when they're close like friends, lovers, or family. Usually they call family names. Thus, if Hanaoka and Ishigami called each personal name from the beginning, Japanese readers would feel very strange. Japanese people generally think a man and a woman are very close like lovers if they call each other their first names. That is just the case among Japanese people. That may be not true when they talk to other countries people.
Alex wrote: "It wouldn't be terribley odd if the honorifics were used, but I'm used to names without them."I'm relieved to hear that. :) I think localization is important but leaving culture in the country in text is important too, though I know it's difficult to decide whether you should localize it or not. If the original Japanese text says, "いただきます (itadakimasu)", I think it should be translated into directly itadakimasu with a note explaining that Japanese people say the word when they start to eat a meal.
Honorifics are kept in in some light novels. J-Novel Club has some series keep them, others no. Depends on the translator and their importance.I think honorifics are odd when English speakers are speaking them (see Atlus videogame series Persona).
Terrence wrote: "Honorifics are kept in in some light novels. J-Novel Club has some series keep them, others no. Depends on the translator and their importance.I think honorifics are odd when English speakers are..."
Are they odd when you see them in a book too?
I cannot remember odd localization from Western style into Japanese in movies and books. They actually do and say what Japanese usually don't, but that's not odd because that's their culture. There is no hug or kiss culture in greeting in Japan, but I don't feel odd when I see such scene in a movie or book.
Mod
"San" is typically translated as "Mr." or "Ms." in English, if it's translated in at all. It kind of depends on context, and I guess it's something you get a feel for when you translate a lot or read a lot of translated manga.
Manga translations usually leave in the honorifics as-is, since it's all dialogue. There's also a bit of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" mentality, where some fans complain that it's not "authentic" enough if the honorifics aren't left in, but other fans complain that it's not a proper translation if they are left in.
Most light novels, since there's a lot more room for context in the subtext of the story, usually leave out the honorifics. There's also the fact that Yen Press, at least early on, wanted to try and sell light novels to the main stream audience, and so did a more thorough job in trying to localize the translation.
Personally, I don't care much one way or the other on honorifics in translation. My pet peeve is to not have random non-English words in a translation when there's a perfectly good English word (e.g. don't leave in "baka" when "idiot" does the job just fine). Honorifics don't always have a neat and tidy translation, so those don't bother me as much. ;)
Selena wrote: "Late to the party, but I figure I'll throw in my two cents."San" is typically translated as "Mr." or "Ms." in English, if it's translated in at all. It kind of depends on context, and I guess it'..."
Thank you for giving me nice information and your opinion!
Are these your pet peeve too?
itadakimasu, gotisousamadesu
ittekimasu, itterassyai
tadaima, okaeri
Itadakimasu becomes "thanks for the grub" in a lot of translations, which is kinda terrible (isn't it's origin a prayer? Like saying "Grace" in Christian religions?).One that bothered me recently was the chant the characters in Grimgar give while putting their hands together before going to battle. Ippatsu Fighto or something? No translation notes or anything.
Tadaima is "welcome home" or "I'm home" right? I mean, if it has a connotation like that, I'd just translate it, but I could be wrong about the meaning. That and Okaeri I think you could translate.
Again, these are my opinions on them, but I don't think I've ever seen those two words just left there or even Translation Noted below the page.
To be completely honest, I really think that it depends on what feeling you want to be portrayed in your story. That's the tricky part of translating anything... are you looking for direct translation or more translating the *feeling* of the story. (Although, I guess if you're writing this in English, we're more talking about translating specific points of dialogue and not an entire story)If it's set in Japan and there is spoken dialogue, then I'd think that keeping the honorifics would be just fine. It would remind the reader that, despite the fact that they are reading the story in English, it's still set in Japan even if the intended dialogue is actually English (depending on your characters... I have friends that still add a "chan" to the end of my name and others that don't when speaking to me in English ^_^)
As far as the basic greetings.... I'd think it would be okay if you wanted to leave more commonly known ones in there. (I think just about everyone knows "Thank You" ^_^ ) If you decide to add more, I'd add a little reference page at the back for those that aren't as familiar.
There really is no correct or incorrect way to do it. It's all your preference and how you want the story to come across.
Mod
itadakimasu, gotisousamadesu
ittekimasu, itterassyai
tadaima, okaeri "
Itadakimasu = "Thanks for the food", though I usually see it localized as "this looks really good" or something like that.
Gochisousama = "Thanks for the food", though much like before, I usually see it localized as "that was very good" or something like that.
Ittekimasu usually gets translated to "I'm leaving" or something like that, especially since someone usually responds as "Okay, have fun" or "drive safe" or whatever instead of "Itterashai".
Tadaima usually gets translated as "I'm home" and Okaerinassai is "Welcome back."
These usually fall under my pet peeve because there are good work arounds or equivalencies.
My pet peeve is admittedly a bit complicated. When I see something in English in a book, especially in dialogue, that I know isn't supposed to be English (e.g. samurai in the 1700s would not be speaking English, obviously it's "translated" Japanese, even if the book was originally in English). When a character says something in Japanese in this "translated" English, it breaks the illusion because I'm going, "Wait, why are they saying Konbanwa? Weren't they speaking Japanese this whole time? Or are they speaking English and just using the occasional Japanese phrase? That makes no sense!"
As I said, it's a bit weird and hard to explain. ^^;;;
And again, it's my weird pet peeve, not all Americans have it. :) In fact, I wouldn't have this pet peeve if American authors didn't do this all the time in their books. You'd probably be okay, but I personally would go for the American equivalent phrases.
Terrence wrote: "Itadakimasu becomes "thanks for the grub" in a lot of translations, which is kinda terrible (isn't it's origin a prayer? Like saying "Grace" in Christian religions?).One that bothered me recently..."
Fight Ippatu is a shout on commercials of a famous energy drink in Japan. The commercial is usually like that two muscular men are facing difficult situation, for example climbing a cliff, and something dangerous happens (one of them is almost falling), then they grab each hands strongly, shouting "Fight Ippatu!", and go over the trouble together.
I searched and found an official youtube movie.
Fight Ippatu is a well known word and the situation where the word is used is also famous. I think characters on the story wanted to inspire themselves.
Julieanne wrote: "It would remind the reader that, despite the fact that they are reading the story in English, it's still set in Japan even if the intended dialogue is actually English ..."As you say, I'm hoping using Japanese words in English books works well in the point too.
Selena wrote: "My pet peeve is admittedly a bit complicated. When I see something in English in a book, especially in dialogue, ..."A reader like you is a challenger for me but also helps me improve writing. :) Finding equivalent phrases is difficult so far because you have to be familiar with both two countries' languages and cultures. You have to know if there is any word or phrase in one language appropriate for the other. How can I know that you would accept tsunami or umami as English word?
I think your pet peeve standard is logical. Maybe the reason I have no such feeling when I read a translated book is that Japanese language has many loanwords from western and I'm used to texts mixed with Japanese and other language.
Do you guys use "Thanks for the food" when you are eating something, or "I'm leaving" when you are going out? If not so, do you wonder why characters on your book say such words?By the way, do you use "I'm home" also at a place except home? Japanese may say the words even if on a normal street when they return from a trip or something.
Mod
By the way, do yo..."
If we're talking to someone, like we went to a friend's for dinner, we might say thanks for the food, especially if they cooked or bought it.
We might say "I'm home" or "I'm back" when we get home of someone's actually there to talk to.
If no one is around, we probably wouldn't say either of those.
We'd probably say "I'm back" rather than I'm home for places that aren't "home", like work or school.
If someone treated you to a meal or cooked for you, then it's polite to thank them (which is the way's that gochisousama is used in conversation and why it's used when leaving a restaurant)."I'm home!" or "I'm heading out!" are used in households and maybe "I'm back" for more general situations (like returning to work after a long vacation). You'll have to use your best judgement when translating other situations where those phrases are used in Japanese.
Ittadadakimasu... is a tough one. There really isn't a good, solid translation in English that sounds natural. Personally, I feel that "Grace!" to me get's the feeling of the phrase across more most other translations.
But again... this really isn't a case of would native English speakers say it but more how you want to translate the words. The phrases are used in Japan so, if that's where the story is taking place, and the characters are understood to be speaking Japanese, then they should be translated accordingly. Some of them, no matter how you translate them, are going to sound odd to an English ear. The one thing about asking in this group though is that most of us are familiar with those phrases and their meaning so, if that's your intended audience, you may have the wiggle room to leave in the harder to translate phrases like "Ittadakimasu" while translating the others. However, if you're looking to get to a broader audience, you may have to either take them out all together and translate as best you can or have a small table for readers to reference.
I learned good translations, "I'm back," because I heard somewhere we cannot use "I'm home" if the place is not home. :) "I'm back," "Welcome back" sound appropriate for original Japanese. Also I feel "Grace" fits the situation. Nature that provides food is like a god for conventional Japanese thought.Julieanne wrote: ", no matter how you translate them, are going to sound odd to an English ear."
I agree. I think you guys sometimes feel odd even in a book translated by a professional translator.
Mod
I've been to translation panels at anime conventions, and the panelists always say that translation and writing the scripts from the translations is more of an art than anything. :) It takes a lot of practice I'm sure.
Fanta wrote: "Do you guys use "Thanks for the food" when you are eating something, or "I'm leaving" when you are going out? If not so, do you wonder why characters on your book say such words?By the way, do yo..."
Some religious people say grace when they sit down to a meal, though usually only when guests are over or on a holiday like Thanksgiving dinner. In America, you just don't eat until everyone is at the table, but then usually there's no formal "Let's Eat" message or anything. If no one is touching their food to be polite, the host might say "Dig in" to signal it's ok to eat.
Also, grace isn't usually just "grace". It's like, "We're thankful for this meal we have today in front of us and that all of us are able to come together to partake of it"... I haven't heard many graces though, so maybe they're different elsewhere. =P
Itadakimasu is fine for a light novel audience I think, especially if you explain that the person saying it "gave reverence for the food before chowing down on it" or some similar explanation.
I use "home" even if it's a vacation home or an apartment. If it's a hotel room or a student dormitory or something, maybe it'd be a bit different, like "I'm back" "Welcome back".
Selena wrote: "Fanta wrote: "I agree. I think you guys sometimes feel odd even in a book translated by a professional translator. "I've been to translation panels at anime conventions, and the panelists always ..."
I can second this having translated a few things for a friend. Sometimes we'd have a bunch of people together trying to find what sounds natural.... I studied Comparative Literature at Uni where we really looked at texts that are translated and what's gained and/or lost when going from one language to the next. That's why I tend to favor translating the *feeling* of the phrase or situation over a direct translation and that certainly makes it more like an art. The best way to find out it through is to start and trial and error ^_^
There are many onomatopoeia in Japanese. They are also used often in dialogue. Those words would need an artistic sense as you say. e.g. zaa zaa (heavy rain), gata gata (something solid is shaking), pika pika (something is shining), goro goro (something is rolling), ...
As for romaji (romanization of Japanese), is using the Hepburn system more localized way for English than the Kunrei system which Japanese learn in school? For example,Hepburn vs. Kunrei
romaji / romazi
sushi / susi
tsunami / tunami
mochi / moti
futon / huton
Do you feel odd from words in the right side?
Even If you are not an English speaker?
Mod
I've only ever seen the versions on the left. Kunrei looks really strange.
Yeah, most English speakers will have only seen Japanese romanised using Hepburn. Even then though, there is variation in how the romaji is written (using macrons and apostrophes, for instance):Kuroda Kanbei / Kuroda Kanbe
Katakura Kojuurou / Katakura Kojūrō
Onyomi / On'yomi
Selena wrote: "I've only ever seen the versions on the left. Kunrei looks really strange."Shocking comment. ;_;
Rose wrote: "Yeah, most English speakers will have only seen Japanese romanised using Hepburn. Even then though, there is variation in how the romaji is written (using macrons and apostrophes, for instance):
K..."
Your first two examples sound like a samurai or ninja name. :)
They are! I like playing games like Sengoku Basara (戦国BASARA) and Samurai Warriors (戦国無双) so I ended up knowing the names of some of the daimyou and generals from the Sengoku period. :)
I'm worried that those who use roman alphabet except English may feel strange from the Hepburn system because I know Spanish and German don't read "ja" as English. I suppose the Kunrei system is likely natural for them than the Hepburn.Rose wrote: "They are! I like playing games like Sengoku Basara (戦国BASARA) and Samurai Warriors (戦国無双) so I ended up knowing the names of some of the daimyou and generals from the Sengoku period. :)"
Then, you know Oda Nobunaga, Sanada Yukimura, etc., right?
Fanta wrote: "Then, you know Oda Nobunaga, Sanada Yukimura, etc., right?"I know bits and pieces but nothing precise, like dates. :)
I think I know a fair amount about Oda Nobunaga- he was an ambitious daimyou who attempted to take over/unify Japan. He died at Honnouji Castle when Akechi Mitsuhide rebelled, only for Toyotomi Hideyoshi to depose him a couple of weeks later. Nobunaga's reputation is that of a violent conqueror and I have seen him referred to as the Devil King of the Sixth Layer of Heaven (第六天魔王). He was married to Nou-hime, his sister Oichi was married to Azai Nagamasa (who he later fought and killed) and some of his closest men were Mori Ranmaru and Akechi Mitsuhide.
Sanada Yukimura is a bit more difficult - isn't there a certain amount of legend surrounding him, such as that isn't necessarily his actual name? He was a talented warrior and general towards the end of the Sengoku period and had a legendary last stand following the Western army's defeat at Sekigahara. He had an elite squad called the Ten Braves and I think he was associated with Takeda Shingen when he was younger.
Fanta wrote: "As for romaji (romanization of Japanese), is using the Hepburn system more localized way for English than the Kunrei system which Japanese learn in school? For example,Hepburn vs. Kunrei
romaji /..."
Stupid question here but is this why I've seen Mt Fuji referred to as Mt Huji before?
Mod
I'm going to say yes, since the "fu" sound in Japanese is also a bit of a "hu" sound. It's kind of a weird in between. A lot of people in my Japanese language class struggled with it.
Gord wrote: "Stupid question here but is this why I've seen Mt Fuji referred to as Mt Huji before? "Japanese learned their basic characters, hiragana, as the table below, where each line is considered as a group. So it is natural for them that characters on a group have the same consonant.
_ a/i/u/e/o
_ あいうえお
k かきくけこ
s さしすせそ
t たちつてと
n なにぬねの
h はひふへほ
m まみむめも
y やゆよ
r らりるれろ
w わを
ん
The table is difficult to see, though...
Japanese Light Novel Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Ring (other topics)Brave Story (other topics)
Ring (other topics)
The Devotion of Suspect X (other topics)
First, is calling the second name with a Japanese honorific strange? For example, when the character's name is Taro Tanaka and other character says, "Hi, Tanaka-san," would it be strange for English speakers? "Hi, Taro," is better even at conversation among only Japanese people? (Maybe I think Mr or Ms in English is -sama in Japanese rather than -san.)