THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion
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Post 1945 Conflicts
Seems like you really enjoyed the book Jonny!
By the way, anyone wishing to read some good books on the Malaya/Borneo conflicts (and also the Indo-China wars to some extent) may want to look for Sir Robert G.K. Thompson's fascinating memoir, Make For The Hills: Memories of Far Eastern Wars (his earlier work, Defeating Communist Insurgency: Experiences from Malaya and Vietnam, is considered by many to be the best work ever written on the subject, but I have never been able to get hold of a copy, and so have yet to read it). Colonel J.P. Cross, living legend and retired officer of the British Army's famed Gurkha Regiment, wrote a remarkable trilogy of memoirs during the 1980s & 1990s which are all well worth reading: First In Last Out: An Unconventional British Officer In Indo-China, Jungle Warfare: Experiences And Encounters & A Face Like A Chicken's Backside: An Unconventional Soldier in South East Asia, 1948-1971. Richard Clutterbuck's excellent The Long Long War: Counterinsurgency In Malaya And Vietnam is also definitely worth reading...
Hi Liam and thanks for that excellent list of recommendations on books covering the Malaya/Borneo conflicts. One of my relatives served in Malaya prior to serving in Vietnam.
Some comments on my Viet Nam read, Nine Days In May: The Battles Of The 4th Infantry Division On The Cambodian Border, 1967I've read somewhere that every American Civil War battle has a wheat/corn field, a peach orchard and a sunken lane. To apply that adage to Viet Nam it seems that every battle has an American lost platoon. In this case the battle starts when the 4th platoon of B/1/8 INF starts chasing some NVA and get way ahead of the rest of the company and trips a major ambush and gets cut off. This story does not have a happy ending - it is over run and 21 of the 29 personal are killed. There fight ends when the PLT LDR calls arty in on his position. A Co gets to B Co about nightfall and is given the task of finding the plt at night with the light from flares dropped for AC orbiting the battle field - really eerie felling. They don't find anyone that night, but he next morning go out again a find 7 wounded. They find enough body parts to determine that 1 man is missing. The story of the recovery of the dead makes gruesome reading. The PLT LDR is awarded the MOH for his actions - posthumously. A couple of days late there are 2 other MOHs earned, both for people throwing themselves on grenades - also posthumously.
The US took the Cambodian Neutrality so seriously that the powers that be would not let the supporting arty and mortars fire counter battery missions on NVA mortars that were being fired from over the river, even when the spotters could see the muzzle blasts.
Here is MOH citation for SFC Grandstaff - the PLT LDR who called arty fire in on his positionhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_A...
The October pre-order train just pulled in..
Angels in the Sky: How a Band of Volunteer Airmen Saved the New State of Israel
Jonny wrote: "The October pre-order train just pulled in.. [book:Angels in the Sky: How a Band of Volunteer Ai..."Perfect, my copy shouldn't be too far away then :)
happy wrote: "I just started 
I'm very interested in this one, because my father was tangently invo..."
I finished this one. Very well researched and detailed look at the 4th ID's fight to control the Cambodian Border/Ia Tchar valley in May of 1967. While the three Bns of the 1st Bde took part in this battle, It wasn't a Bde level fight. It was a series of one or two American companies fighting a Bn or so of NVA at a time usually at night after the Americans had set up a NDP. As one American Bn got fought out it was replaced with another and the who thing would begin again.
There are some vivid descriptions of the fighting and the aftermath including policing up the battle field ( a polite way of say picking up the bodies/body parts)
Some interesting hightlights: To a man the three Bn Commanders involved hated the C&C chopper method of command. They all felt they should be on the ground with their troops. In fact one of the Bn Cdrs did spend the night with his bn during the operation. It just so happened that was the night the NVA DID NOT attack the Americans.
The Company commanders on the other had were glad the Bn Commanders were in the air and not in their hair while they were conducting the fight. They felt the best thing the Bn Cdr could do was keep higher off their command net and make sure they had arty when they needed it:)
Fighting the NVA in the highlands was not the same thing and chasing VC in the lowlands. All of the personal rememberences talk of how professional and hard fighting the NVA were.
In his summation of the battle, the author opines that while the Americans won tactically ( they basically destroyed an NVA Division), strategically it didn't matter because of the inviolability of the Cambodian Sanctuaries and the fact that the NVA could pick the time and place of a fight.
Solid 4 stars
I'll type up a more complete review as I get the time.
Sounds like a book for my library Happy, I will look forward to your final review.
happy wrote: "Some comments on my Viet Nam read, Nine Days In May: The Battles Of The 4th Infantry Division On The Cambodian Border, 1967The US took the Cambodian Neutrality so seriously that the powers that be would not let the supporting arty and mortars fire counter battery missions on NVA mortars that were being fired from over the river, even when the spotters could see the muzzle blasts. "
If you read Sean Parnell's Outlaw Platoon about his experience fighting in Afghanistan on the border with Pakistan you will see that this policy hasn't changed much. Parnell's platoon were receiving inbound ordnance from Pakistan and they couldn't return fire. Parnell said that his Rangers killed men with Pakistani filled prescriptions and finally men wearing Pakistani uniforms.
Anyway, sounds like a good read Happy. I look forward to your review.
I just finished Red Platoon by MOH winner Clinton Romesha. It is about the defense of a command outpost (COP) called Keating in Nuristan Afghanistan in October of 2009. The COP was in the middle of a valley and it was indefensible due to plunging fire from the ridges surrounding this hell hole. It was so indefensible that the Army was preparing to evacuate. The evacuation was delayed because the Army was short of helicopters due to some other emergencies including the desertion of Bowe Bergdahl. Therefore, this cavalry unit had to stay a few days extra too many. This small outpost with about 50 men and an undisclosed amount of Afghanis (it didn't matter because to a man the Afghanis would not fight. ) was surrounded by about 500 Taliban that understood the art of war. Now this narrative by Romesha is a page turner. I read it over the weekend it was very good. I will write a review along with Romesha's description of calling in fire support from a B1 bomber and what it is like to be within a 200 yards of six 500 Lb bombs.
Let us not repeat some of the mistakes that were made at Keating.
I just ordered some books from Amazon Marketplace yesterday:
,
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&
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A nice range of Post 45 books there Liam!
Today's delivery:
Angels in the Sky: How a Band of Volunteer Airmen Saved the New State of IsraelAnd because I'm a sucker for these things, I have to mention the painting on the inside cover:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?vi...
Jonny wrote: "Today's delivery: [book:Angels in the Sky: How a Band of Volunteer Airmen Saved the New State of..."I am not an expert but is that a bf 142 messerschmitt?
Jonny wrote: "Today's delivery: [book:Angels in the Sky: How a Band of Volunteer Airmen Saved the New State of..."I've got a copy of that book on order as well Jonny, I'm hoping it's going to be a pretty good read.
Bou wrote: "Jonny wrote: "Today's delivery: [book:Angels in the Sky: How a Band of Volunteer Airmen Saved th..."It's an Avia S-199, a Czech licensed copy of the Messerschmitt Bf109G-14;
http://101squadron.com/101/s-199s.html
I really liked this one Johnny - on a personal note, my father's NG unit was activated for the Berlin Crisis and sent to Ft. Hood Texas. He stayed on active duty when it was released. He didn't make it to Germany until 1970
That's a nice link Happy. I'm looking forward to reading this one!
That reminds me, I have a copy of
around here somewhere that I've been meaning to read...
Dimitri wrote: "
India's Wars: A Military History 1947-1971Review:
http://www.thehindu.com/books/literar......"
Nice find, Dimitri! That one looks extremely interesting...
I've had this book sitting in my library staring at me since it was first released so I decided it was finally time to read it:
Embers Of War: The Fall of an Empire and the Making of America's Vietnam by Fredrik Logevall
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I've had this book sitting in my library staring at me since it was first released so I decided it was finally time to read it:[bookcover:Embers Of War: The Fall of an Empire and the Making of Am..."
That's great, Rick, I hope you enjoy it as much as I did! Professor Logevall did an absolutely masterful job with that book, and I really can't say enough good things about it...
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I've had this book sitting in my library staring at me since it was first released so I decided it was finally time to read it:[bookcover:Embers Of War: The Fall of an Empire and the Making of Am..."
Looks like a good one Rick; we're being treat to Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam at the moment so this might be a nice addition.
I'm only 40 pages in but so far its been a interesting and very easy to read account. I'm hoping Ken Burn's doco hits our shores soon.
Hi Jonnyhow does the Vietnam doc rate against Burns "Civil War" series - still the benchmark for great documentaries
There's always "Vietnam in HD" (2011) Narrated by Dexter... I mean, Michael C. Hall.
Left wing, slanted, biased, not a single real hero, MOH recipient, POW to provide their side of the war. Lacking much credidibility, due to not providing the full context for why the US and other nations (yes there were many nations involved) were there to stem communism.
Alex wrote: "Hi Jonnyhow does the Vietnam doc rate against Burns "Civil War" series - still the benchmark for great documentaries"
I've only got as far as part 4 (up to June 1967) but I've no complaints- it's gone from the start of French rule (some nice shots of Legion paras jumping over Dien Bien Phu and there are a nice spread of contributors from just about every viewpoint going, no RoKs, Aussies or Thais yet but there's time! As a Brit I have no particular axe to grind but I wondered if the inclusion of an interview with the conclusion that "As soon as the draft got going the protest movement shifted from anti-war to self interest" was pretty brave? I'm also waiting impatiently for the next interview with Everett Alvarez, I have the feeling his contribution isn't going to end with shootdown and capture. And from the Geek side... full colour footage of Rhinos and Scooters.. and Canberras... :)
I met Alvarez, and others such as George E. "Bud" Day (he was my attorney, MOH), Roger Lerseth (worked with him in Pentagon/Crystal City), James B. Stockdale (MOH), John Dramesi, John McCain, Leo Throsness (MOH) and others in the "Hilton", and Alvarez is one of the few mentioned with credibility, a good man.
The author covered the terrible events in Saigon on 24–25 of September 1945 in; "Embers of War", later called the Cité Héraud Massacre:http://indochine.uqam.ca/en/historica...
As a result British occupational forces (there to disarm the Japanese army) and Japanese soldiers operated together to combat Nationalist Vietnamese forces:
"Many of these engagements were hard fought, however as the nationalists proved resilient, showing themselves adept at withdrawing and regrouping, then, under the cover of night, striking back. Casualties were significant on both sides: The British Indian Division, for example, suffered nineteen killed and sixty-eight wounded by early November, while the Japanese lost fifty-four dead and seventy-nine wounded. This latter figure did not include a sizable number of Japanese - somewhere between one thousand and three thousand - who deserted their units and fought on the side of the Vietnamese (meaning that in some engagements Japanese fought Japanese)."
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "The author covered the terrible events in Saigon on 24–25 of September 1945 in; "Embers of War", later called the Cité Héraud Massacre:http://indochine.uqam.ca/en/historica......"
Interesting, AR.
I liked this quote from Ho Chi Minh in regards to a 'Preliminary Convention' signed with France in March 1946 which recognized the 'Republic of Vietnam' as a 'free state' within the French Union:"The new National Assembly in Hanoi, which had been elected in January, approved the deal, with the understanding that it was preliminary and that additional negotiations would follow in short order. Some Vietnamese militants condemned the accord as a sellout, but Ho reiterated his conviction that the first order of business was to be rid of the dread Chinese. 'As for me', he told aides, 'I prefer to sniff French shit for five years than eat Chinese shit for the rest of my life'."
Another well known quote from Ho Chi Minh in regards to the fighting between French forces and the Viet Minh:" ... 'The spirt of man is more powerful than his own machines.' The Viet Minh, Ho stressed, would make full use of the swamps, the thick jungles, the mountains and caves, the terrain they knew so well. 'It will be a war between an elephant and a tiger. If the tiger ever stands still the elephant will crush him with his mighty tusks. But the tiger does not stand still. He lurks in the jungle by day and emerges only at night. He will leap upon the back of the elephant, tearing huge chunks from his hide, and then he will leap back into the dark jungle. And slowly the elephant will bleed to death. That will be the war of Indochina'."
That remark about the French & Chinese is absolutely classic.
Liam wrote: "That remark about the French & Chinese is absolutely classic."It is indeed!
Liam wrote: "That remark about the French & Chinese is absolutely classic."This psyche of Ho makes the Domino Theory a little shaky.
Chin Joo wrote: "Liam wrote: "That remark about the French & Chinese is absolutely classic."This psyche of Ho makes the Domino Theory a little shaky."
Well he would have been a happy little American ally if not for Wilson at the Paris Peace Accords
The book has been very good in showing how the French Indochina War and the following involvement by America could have been avoided at many steps along the way, just post WW2 power politics, the Cold War and domestic politics in France and America got in the way.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "The book has been very good in showing how the French Indochina War and the following involvement by America could have been avoided at many steps along the way, just post WW2 power politics, the C..."And all those dead.... in vain.
Not only Ho's psyche, Chin Joo, but the entire history of Viet Nam. After all, in addition to the extensive historical knowledge and interest of Hồ Chí Minh himself, Võ Nguyên Giáp had actually been a teacher of history... I absolutely concur with Aussie Rick's comment above (as well as Manray9's). When I first became aware, after years of study, of the incredible intellectual laziness and shockingly casual willful ignorance that characterised most of the U.S. Government decision-making in regard to Indo-China from the late 1940s onward, I was literally sickened. When I read, hear, or see mendacious & self-serving statements to the effect that there were "no experts on that part of the world" available in the U.S. during those years, or that there was no recent scholarship extant at the time (Robert McNamara was probably the worst offender in this regard), I invariably have great difficulty resisting the automatic compulsion to froth at the mouth with rage while snarling obscenity-laced vitriol...
I don't know if any of you have read them, but I found both of these books, written by U.S. Military personnel who were eyewitnesses to the events in Tonkin at the time, quite useful in gaining some understanding of what Hồ Chí Minh's political orientation was like immediately before & after the end of WWII:
&
.
Manray9 wrote: "'And all those dead.... in vain."The epitaph to any war eventually. Just before signing that declaration, no leader ever mutters "in a 100 years, who's going to care ?". The difference between the World Wars is clean. Those who lived through the First have all vanished. The living regard it all as an great, presumably still avoidable tragedy that led to the Second. At the same time, those that lived through the Second sometimes cling to the hate of their youth and the historical debate remains politically charged*.
*yet so is the official program of commemoration for 14-18: some battles are left out of the British curriculum for a reason. Maybe Arras wasn't sexy enough compared to the mud of Passchendaele.
Liam wrote: "Not only Ho's psyche, Chin Joo, but the entire history of Viet Nam. After all, in addition to the extensive historical knowledge and interest of Hồ Chí Minh himself, Võ Nguyên Giáp had actually bee..."Thank you Liam, very good post. The Vietnam War strikes me as a bizarre one where 'graduated escalation' on both sides resulted in a most unfortunate war. One many today feel is avoidable, costly and based on the wrong assumptions.
Having said that, I can remember people here in Singapore really worrying about what would happen to the rest of Southeast Asia when the Vietnam was unified. In other words, the Domino Theory was real to at least some people here - and we are Southeast Asians ourselves.
Chin Joo wrote: "Liam wrote: "Not only Ho's psyche, Chin Joo, but the entire history of Viet Nam. After all, in addition to the extensive historical knowledge and interest of Hồ Chí Minh himself, Võ Nguyên Giáp had..."You are quite welcome, Chin Joo, and thank you for your kind remarks! I am absolutely not denying that other nations & peoples in SEA had good reason to be concerned- I believe your late leader in Singapore, Lee Kuan Yew, said during the mid-1990s something to the effect that the conflict in Viet Nam, and specifically U.S. participation in that conflict, bought time not only for Singapore but the other ASEAN nations as well to achieve a level of stability & prosperity that made further expansion of communism in the area unlikely. Despite having a great deal of respect for him, I did not always agree with everything LKY said or did during his long career; in this case, however, I believe he was absolutely correct...
Liam wrote: "Not only Ho's psyche, Chin Joo, but the entire history of Viet Nam. After all, in addition to the extensive historical knowledge and interest of Hồ Chí Minh himself, Võ Nguyên Giáp had actually bee..."Even when viewed through the lens of the policy of containment, U.S. involvement in Vietnam was connected closely to American domestic politics. The Democrats spent the fifties in the political wilderness because Republicans were successful in painting then as "soft on Communism." In the political picture of the era, Democrats "lost" China, settled for less than victory in Korea, and were riddled with leftist influences. JFK was elected in a skin-tight race with the dislikeable Richard Nixon. Democrats then felt it necessary to prove how tough and anti-Communist they were. The input of thoughtful individuals such as George Ball was ignored. In the summer of '66, LBJ famously said "I'm not going down in history as the first American President who lost a war."
Good posts everyone, very interesting discussion. In regards to your comment MR9, the author of "Embers of War" mentions Kennedy's October 1951 tour of Indochina and how it changed his views on the French involvement in Vietnam:
" ... But it's clear that the Asian tour changed JFK's outlook. It convinced him that the United States must align herself with the emerging nations, and that Communism could never be defeated by relying solely or principally on force of arms. His Indochina experience led him to that conclusion, as did a dinner conversation in New Delhi with Jawaharlal Nehru, who called the French war an example of doomed colonialism and said Communism offered the masses 'something to die for' whereas the West promised only the status quo. War would not stop Communism, Nehru warned him; it would only enhance it, 'for the devastation of war breeds only more poverty and more want'. Kennedy agreed, but he wondered if U.S. officials grasped these essential truths."
THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP
Books mentioned in this topic
The Angel of Dien Bien Phu: The Lone French Woman at the Decisive Battle for Vietnam (other topics)The Korean War: 1945-1954 (other topics)
Korea: War Without End (other topics)
The Vietnam War: A Military History (other topics)
The Angel of Dien Bien Phu: The Lone French Woman at the Decisive Battle for Vietnam (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Allan Reed Millett (other topics)Allan Reed Millett (other topics)
Richard Dannatt (other topics)
Geoffrey Wawro (other topics)
David W. Cameron (other topics)
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Off back to the August theme read now, although is like I've not left the Pacific area all month...