Series: Terra Ignota by Ada Palmer ("Too Like the Lightning")

[Sarah]

Allison wrote: "Sarah, I think you're right. It was all explained after, though I still have questions. [spoilers removed]"

I see your point- but, this goes back to (view spoiler)[his speaking with Tully Mardi at the forum. He said he loved his hive and he would do anything, kill for it, die for it, go to war for it, to protect it. He doesn't care about himself as much as his hive, which he thought he was protecting. (hide spoiler)]

pg 284: (view spoiler)[ Finally!!! The Anonymous is revealed. I can't believe I didn't think of it. I kept going through all the names thinking- but who is left?! Don't know how I missed it. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

pg 284, nevermind. I didn't read far enough down the page. Darn it.

[Rachel]

Does anyone know how to get the spoilers to show in the phone app?

[Sarah]

Not in the phone app. If I want to see spoilers on my phone I just use my phone's browser and pick "full site" instead of mobile.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Mwahahaha re: pg 286 (view spoiler)[so glad I guessed The Anonymous! It was weighing on me, I wanted their love to be unbounded and absolute. (hide spoiler)]

Yeah, Rachel, I think you have to use the website. The app is excruciating for actual participation.

[Kristin B.]

Allison wrote: "Mwahahaha re: pg 286 [spoilers removed]"

Yes! This made me so happy! I actually put a bookmark at that spot so I could remember to gush about it when I came back to post.

Pg. 229 (view spoiler)[I really enjoyed how Jehovah talked about words on page 229 and 230. I love that he started off with "As I grew, I met words." The whole paragraph was really lovely. (hide spoiler)]

pg 329 (view spoiler)["U-beasts of all styles ... delivering snacks and pills and therapeutic cuteness." This may be my favorite sentence. (hide spoiler)]

Ending(view spoiler)[Not really sure how I feel about the ending. All of that build up of what Bridger could do, and then he's not around to do it. And why did he choose Major over Apollo? Definitely an interesting read. Really unique style. However, not enough for me to be interested in reading the other two. Especially without Mycroft and Bridger. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Kristin, the things you pulled out were really superlative. There were definitely some great lines and really profound prose in the book. I think you said earlier that you thought Ada would be someone whose later works could be exceptional, and I agree. The ideas and a lot of the writing in this were phenomenal, but (view spoiler)[ the ending as it is, and some of the fat still left in I think marred the overall effect. I still think this book is worthy of acclaim but I also am not compelled to continue until and unless the full Terra Ignota series is finished and I hear that the weaknesses in this portion of the story were addressed. (hide spoiler)] [spoiler speaks to overall thoughts on book upon completion]

[Sarah]

Well (view spoiler)[I thought I read somewhere that Mycroft was not the narrator of the next two books but the description makes it sound like he is? If he is narrating I will definitely continue. I was heartbroken that Bridger changed himself. Kristen- to answer your question about Apollo, I think he didn't choose Apollo because he'd never known Apollo while he'd known Major all of his life (hide spoiler)]

I still haven't composed my thoughts on this. I understand everything now but I feel like still a lot of it was above my head. This is a series I will definitely read twice. Probably when the final book comes out so I can read them all together. This is definitely brain food, something sorely lacking in my life.

I do have a question even though neither of you want to continue the series. (view spoiler)[whose side of the war would you be on? I don't like that Madame wins in this. She seems like evil incarnate. I love Mycroft so I want to side with him, but I feel like it is Sniper who is correct overall. But maybe that is just my American need for democracy. Jehovah is a leader who may be good yes, but with the possibility of influence from Madame, and the question of what happens after Jehovah dies, I can't help but feel like it's Sniper who is right to correct to want to reinstall the Hive system. But that might also mean lack of progress. I'm so conflicted! (hide spoiler)]

[Kristin B.]

Sarah wrote: "I do have a question even though neither of you want to continue the series"

(view spoiler)[Honestly, I think I'd fall on whatever side the Utopians fall on. I'm not really sure what side that would end up being. Sniper wants the Hive system to stay in place, which is stagnation. And the Utopians are all about the future. But, I very much doubt they would choose to ally with whatever side contains Madame. In everything though, I feel as though the Utopians have humanities best interests at heart. Also, I'm a sucker for innovation. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

Kristin B. wrote: "Sarah wrote: "I do have a question even though neither of you want to continue the series"

[spoilers removed]"

This is an interesting answer! Mostly because (view spoiler)[Apollo was a Utopian and he wanted the war. He was all for destroying this world to build a "better" one. But then again, I guess his interest was mostly in keeping the war contained, which is what Mycroft and Jehovah hope for, so they could move on from it. I can't help feel like the whole thing has been a self-fulfilling prophecy. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Sarah, it's not that I won't continue it (view spoiler)[I just want to know more about what it is I'm getting into, and to be able to read them both together if I decide it's a story I want to read more about, you know? I have a lot of raw feelings and busy thoughts. It's not something I feel I need to know the next part of, especially if it continues the war or something and chooses answers for me that I don't want made certain. Sort of like the rest of the series that starts with The Giver, or the later books in the Hunger Games. Some ideas are way more compelling in the abstract, and I don't want to diminish them. (hide spoiler)]

And you totally beat me to that question!! I will answer, and I'd also like to ask, if you were selecting a Hive, which would it be?

(view spoiler)[Yeah, it's tough. I don't think I know. I'm on Apollo's side, in that I think war should be person to person. In the present I'd side with JEDD, I think. I'd hope that JEDD would re-establish peace, help put forward leaders who could be honest and passionate (imagine if Apllo had led the Humanists, and whipped them into the same zeal he inspired in a select few! Could he have pushed forward progress?) about exploring the heart of the similarities/differences of Hive members. Once the Hive system has been reinvigorated, then I'd hope JEDD would abdicate, becoming an advisor rather than a leader because he'd know that consolidated power for 10 billion people is only possible for a lifetime. In the short term I would deflect war, in the longer term I'd encourage people to become Utopian, Brillist and Blacklaw to bleed out those who can't ignore fear and violence, or focus them on the greatest questions of humanity.

I do feel that gender expression is something the author has a lot of thoughts on that don't mirror mine, so I can't say that I find Madame pure evil, I just find her a type of woman I don't enjoy in life. I understand her motives, though I think Ada oversold the power such a person could wield, but whatever. Performative gender has a power. But it also has a limit. As much as she pushes and pulls, she will only ever be the neck that controls the head. She will content herself with being confined to a jail of her own making while people grappling much harder with what it means to be the person they are will always be the people changing the world. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

And to answer my own question I think I'd be Masonic. Or Graylaw and likely Hiveless if I couldn't learn Latin ;-)

[Sarah]

Allison wrote: "And to answer my own question I think I'd be Masonic. Or Graylaw and likely Hiveless if I couldn't learn Latin ;-)"

Ooh good question! I honestly think it might be the Humanists. I'm can be pretty competitive and I believe in the wonder of Human achievement.

I'm not actually sure what the Europeans or the Masons stand for though- if you could shed some light on that?

[Sarah]

Allison wrote: "Sarah, it's not that I won't continue it [spoilers removed]

And you totally beat me to that question!! I will answer, and I'd also like to ask, if you were selecting a Hive, which would it be?

Ye..."

This is an interesting answer too!

I'm not sure how I feel about JEDDs (view spoiler)[claim of Godliness. Also- now that he is willing to kill, who knows what other goodness has left him? Maybe he won't ever die, maybe Bridger will always revive him. Maybe he'll never have to worry about who he is handing control of the world over to. I just see monarch and think bad because of what I know of history. One person shouldn't have so much control. Maybe one god, but I'm. It sure of his godhood yet. Stagnancy isn't good either, but I sort of feel like Sniper is justified in his reasons at least. Why is JEDD warring with him?

My reason for thinking Madame is evil is that she doesn't care about anything. She's been running all these human experiments without a thought for the consequences. When she is asked why? She responds, because I could. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I'm not sure entirely, but I can share my impressions. I think the Europeans and Mitsubishi are largely those who take pride in the place of their birth over something within themselves--the remnants of nationalism or patriotism.

And I think the Masons are a community that is meant to support the glory of human accomplishment tempered by debate. I figure they're a huge Hive, which means they're something largely appealing, I like debate and feeling like I'm part of something bigger, so statistically and realistically, I'd fall in with them. I think I'd like to think I'd be Humanist, but when it comes to whether I value society or individuality more, I'd probably go towards society.

Otherwise, I'd hold myself outside and find community with those who belonged more to their differences than their similarities.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Sarah wrote: "This is an interesting answer too!

I'm not sure how I feel about JEDDs ..."

Under that definition, I'd agree with your assessment of Madame. And the question of JEDD (view spoiler)[ is really difficult. I'd assumed that Bridger was gone now, and we know that JEDD can be removed from this universe at least, so he can effectively die. I think JEDD and Bridger are really good stand ins for the question of the One God. I don't mean to offend anyone here, but the biggest revolving issue in theology is usually that the evidence does not suggest that God can be all powerful and all good. Goodness is way too subjective, if explored from the impact on each human life. If we define it as either all merciful or entirely truthful, or if we assume some divine concept of Goodness that is able to weigh a human life as an abstract for the benefit of all creation, then we can get there.

Bridger was all powerful and possibly all good, because he realized that a creation subject to his fears as well as his kindness would always be consumed by the fears, so ultimate goodness meant he had to forsake his power.

We know JEDD is not all powerful in this universe, but that he tries to follow a goodness that assumes that time, distance, and disunity are the biggest hindrances to perfection. That's now so alien that I don't know how to view morality anymore. I do think he actively works to be Good, I just don't know what his framework is. He loves people, but they are only sacred if the contain the ability to build a universe. Otherwise, he seems to have the ability to understand relative morality, and yeah. One person with that power is slippery. It's like the robots who had to get shut down because they realized that humans were the biggest threat to themselves. Or Galahad, who was a rude killing machine who moved with absolute certainty that their actions were righteous despite the harm it caused. (hide spoiler)]

[Kristin B.]

Sarah wrote: "This is an interesting answer! Mostly because [spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[Apollo wanted war and was a Utopian. But that doesn't mean all Utopians wanted war. There were 16 other deaths of people who wanted war and none of them were Utopian. That was a Bash mindset and it was a Bash made of all Hives. Not all the Hives want war. I think by and large the Utopians are peaceful. War would only disrupt their progress. The diverting of resources and human innovation into fighting a war would set back their plans for mars by decades if not centuries. (hide spoiler)]

As for what Hive I would choose, my initial instinct says Utopian. The innovation and the drive to do amazing things is something I envy. The cooperation is also amazing in the constellations. However, I'm also a fan of the individualistic view that the Humanists take. Not necessarily their Olympic history, as I'm not much for sports, but the notion that the individual is capable of amazing things. Each person has the ability to change the world. I like that.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

^ Well said, Kristin!

[Sarah]

Allison wrote: "I'm not sure entirely, but I can share my impressions. I think the Europeans and Mitsubishi are largely those who take pride in the place of their birth over something within themselves--the remnan..."

Ahh- I like your idea about the Europeans. That makes a lot of sense. I was thinking the Mitsubishis were more commerce minded people. They own land and stocks and horde resouces.

Your definition of the Masons also makes sense and I think I could see myself swinging that way too. Which seems totally at odds with Humanists but I was think less along the lines of individuality and more along the lines that Humans as a whole can do great things if they put their mind to it like Kristin said.

Your answer about JEDD makes my head spin- but yeah, you are pointing out a lot of my concerns about him.

I will finish the series because I'm curious at this point to know what conclusion Ms. Palmer is actually getting at. So far it's lots of gray against lots of gray. But I will probably wait until they are both released, and then begin at the beginning again.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I initially thought I'd be a Humanist, but I think that's like assuming I'd be Gryffindor. It sounded the coolest at the time, I'm just not sure I'm that type of cool :-) I would love a pair of those boots, but I also am concerned that it'd impact my privacy lol! And that's how I know I'm not Humanist material.

You could be right about the Mitsubishi. I'd initially read them as being the next generation of the consensus after WW2 in Japan that business constituted a facet of war, and therefore the samurai ruling class could engage in commerce without dishonoring themselves. And then it expanded to consume all nations that originally had a more Eastern outlook, but I think it's absolutely possible (probable?) it's kind of the opposite, a more West-meets-East faith in the concept of money as power.

I really hope you do keep reading! I am probably going to buy these two and read them again. When you start the next one, I'll totally be stalking your updates to see if I should jump in, too.

[Sarah]

Allison wrote: "I initially thought I'd be a Humanist, but I think that's like assuming I'd be Gryffindor. It sounded the coolest at the time, I'm just not sure I'm that type of cool :-) I would love a pair of tho..."

Ha- that's funny. I know I'm not that cool. I'm not even athletic. To me I'd read the Humanists as being more about individual achievement in any field not just sports.

Also- I'd like to apologize for any previous spelling mistakes. Most of it was typed out from my phone and I don't catch all of them right away.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Sarah wrote: "To me I'd read the Humanists as being more about individual achievement in any field not just sports. "

Yeah, I agree with this! No worries. I have typos too, even though I wasn't on my phone and we're all just going to suffer through them. Anarchy!

[Kristin B.]

Allison wrote: "we're all just going to suffer through them. Anarchy!"

Would that make you a Blacklaw? ;)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Kristin B. wrote: "Allison wrote: "we're all just going to suffer through them. Anarchy!"

Would that make you a Blacklaw? ;)"

LOL!

[Sarah]

Kristin B. wrote: "Allison wrote: "we're all just going to suffer through them. Anarchy!"

Would that make you a Blacklaw? ;)"

This is why GoodReads needs a Like button for comments. lol

[Kim]

You're all way ahead of me. I can't click on any spoilers.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

You're not at page 67 yet? C'mon, Kim!!

You should feel free to add your own spoilers though, I'm still chewing on parts in my head and wouldn't mind reviewing things now that I'm done and not frantically trying to get to the next page.

[Sarah]

^^^What Allison said. Mark as you go. Still happy to discuss!

[Kristin B.]

^^^ I shall third that.

[Kim]

I had to finish another book first, now I can concentrate on this one.

[Travis]

Just finished this morning and am only now enjoying this amazing thread. You're helping me figure out all of the questions I had while reading. I agree with Allison that if I'm going to read the next two books I'll wait in order to read them back-to-back.

The ending was not what I expected! (view spoiler)[So the child god, who I'd been reading as a Christ-like prince of peace, leaves behind Achilles to be a tutor in the arts of war for the grown god? I was of course hoping to see Bridger in action, but the ending's complexity manages to grab me in other ways. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

Travis wrote: "Just finished this morning and am only now enjoying this amazing thread. You're helping me figure out all of the questions I had while reading. I agree with Allison that if I'm going to read the ne..."

The ending wasn't what I expected either, but yeah.

(view spoiler)[I think this is what Mycroft had known was a possibility all along and was trying to avoid. I think he wanted Bridger to remain a child so that he could fill the world with goodness, but now Bridger is a soldier. This might help him end the war quickly, but it might also make it more brutal. (hide spoiler)]

[Marc-André]

I just devoured Seven Surrenders and it was delicious. Palmer is not only well read, but has vivid prose and weaves a captivating plot and universe.

The characters are even more campy than they were in the previous novel ("random protagonist falls on the floor broken and in tears"). Howerver, I do hope this is part of the signature of this tetralogy and not how Palmer generally writes her characters .

I'm guessing the end will be open ended. Too many fundamental questions are asked that are too complexed to be answered by one author.

As a general rule, I do not do series and stop after the first novel in a series because writers often said all they had to say and just spread the butter a bit too thin on too many toasts. This story arc is an exception. I will continue reading it like a school girl in love with some random Youtube star watches every vid from their idol.

It is quit refreshing compared to the current space operas. I'm thinking it will be a finalist for the Hugo for the best series once book four comes out.

At least I wish it will.

[Sarah]

Marc-André wrote: "I will continue reading it like a school girl in love with some random Youtube star watches every vid from their idol."

haha- me too! Glad you enjoyed it. In response to your rule about not reading the series- I can tell you that I think you'd probably enjoy The Will to Battle. Though I don't think Palmer intends to offer any actual answers- I can tell you that her thought process has not grown thin and the plot did not go stale. The questions she asks change and I think that's what makes the books so interesting.

[Anna]

BR of Seven Surrenders starting on Jan 20th (or before if you want to, just jump right in!)

The Will to Battle and Perhaps the Stars BRs will be scheduled soon, hopefully!

[Anna]

Has this been posted somewhere already?

Terra Ignota Seminar: An in-depth discussion of the first two books of Terra Ignota, with lengthy analytic essays by a range of scholars, authors, and readers, followed by Ada Palmer’s responses, hosted on the political science blog Crooked Timber.

[Jemppu]

Oh! Fascinating. Can't wait to get to SS to read through that too. Thank you for sharing, Anna ^^

[Anna]

Reminder: Seven Surrenders BR scheduled for Jan 20th! :)

[Mela]

I'll try to join. my copy should arrive on the 23rd.

[Amanda]

Started this a couple days ago, just finished Chapter 13, and (view spoiler)[OMG that was a ride. It was structured almost like a surreal Council of Elrond, everyone just taking turns dropping bombs and leaving me wondering what the hell just happened. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I love that description, Amanda! I am envisioning a sort of prog-rock filk band now lol

[Amanda]

Chapter 15: (view spoiler)[Whew! I had to re-read the page about five times, where Papa works out Saladin's role in things, and I'm still not sure I'm completely following his thought process. That was Doctor Who levels of brain-wheels turning. (hide spoiler)]

[Mareike]

I finally started listening to this and Ch. 2 (view spoiler)[hooo boy. That was supremely creepy. (hide spoiler)]

[Mareike]

Wow, this book. I'm still chewing on several of the revelations that the last few chapters piled on - which is made a little harder by me listening to this rather than eye-reading it.

After chapter 17: (view spoiler)[Wow.....this whole thing about Apollo trying to start a war to prevent "an even worse war" is.....a lot. This reasoning is just.....yikes. I mean, yes ostensibly it's done for a "good" reason, but....really???

Mycroft talking about how he "kept killing Apollo" by not asking Bridger to animate the statue was heartbreaking, though.

Same for Mycroft's reasons re: the murders he and Saladin committed.

And then there's the whole OS situation. One ethical quandary after another and barely enough breathing space to unpack them. (hide spoiler)]

[Amanda]

Interesting Twitter thread from Palmer about the use of pronouns in the French translation, and generally in the series:

https://twitter.com/Ada_Palmer/status...

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

That is fascinating, thanks, Amanda!

[Jemppu]

Ooh. Fascinating, indeed. Thank you for sharing. The translation of the pronouns is one of the things I keep wondering about, and am curious if Palmer has perhaps been approached about translations to languages with no discernible gender pronouns at all.

[Anna]

Umm, I took a look at what the Perhaps the Stars sitch is, and the UK publisher's site says June 1st 2022 :o I hope that's a typo, Amazon says June 1st 2021.

https://headofzeus.com/ai;isbn=978178...

edit: Oh I didn't notice it's the paperback, this other page/ISBN says 2021

https://headofzeus.com/books/97817866...

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Nooooooo! Either way, no!

[Anna]

Hey, it's only eleven months, that's nothing compared to how long it's been on the BR list XD