Series: Terra Ignota by Ada Palmer ("Too Like the Lightning")

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

This is a side read! Come chat about Seven Surrenders. Spoilers for Too Like the Lightning may occur, but please avoid them for this book.

[Rachel]

For anyone looking in this thread deciding whether to read SS - you do at least get some real answers in this one!

[Kristin B.]

Rachel wrote: "For anyone looking in this thread deciding whether to read SS - you do at least get some real answers in this one!"

That is the main reason I'll be checking this thread. :) Trying to decide if I want to shell out the thirteen bucks to buy the second book. I at least got the first one on sale. And found it pretty frustrating.

[Sarah]

Thanks for setting us up Allison! I'm only a few chapters in but loving it so far.

[Rachel]

Oh - library all the way for me!! But I got it t several months ago at my library so I think I must have a pretty good one!

[Kim]

Updated the thread title. We only open one thread per book for non-monthly reads. Any spoilers must be behind tags.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

ah, my b. thanks!

[Kristin B.]

Rachel wrote: "Oh - library all the way for me!! But I got it t several months ago at my library so I think I must have a pretty good one!"

I haven't used the library in years because I'm such an e-reader addict. But for this one I'll make an exception. I just logged into my library's website for the first time in forever to place a hold on it. :)

[Travis]

I'm next in line at my library, and the next copy us due on the 2nd (yes, I know the exact date and am that eager to get my hands on this sequel). So I'm hoping to join this thread soon...

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

My library says they're "searching for the item." I should have it around the second, too :)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

:-(( the library told me it got SS in 10 minutes before it closed today, and is closed tomorrow. I'm in purgatory.

[Kristin B.]

Allison wrote: ":-(( the library told me it got SS in 10 minutes before it closed today, and is closed tomorrow. I'm in purgatory."

Mine is still in transit from another library.

I'm still enjoying the novelty of using my library, though. I honestly haven't in years. I prefer to own the e-book when I can. But I've been reading a lot more lately and it's been getting pricey. The fun thing is that I can also get ebooks from the library! I'm working on one on my kindle while I wait for Seven Surrenders to come in. (Alas, they did not have an e-book copy of it.)

[Sarah]

Allison that would make me crazy!!! Why are they closed on Wednesday?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

well, Sarah, I'm a risk taker. I could have sent it to the big library, which is open every day, but it twice as far and was recently closed for ac repair, OR the closer little library that's closed on Wednesday. I placed my bet and lost. this is a risk all daredevils take. ;-)

and yes, I am probably going to lose my mind.

Kristin, glad you're exploring the library again! except for Wednesdays, the library is one of my happy places. I have fond memories of all sorts of adventures through my library :)

[Sarah]

Haha- well we all have to risk it sometimes. I live in a very small state so no one library is farther than 45 minutes away and we can use all of them. This I wanted in hardcover though for keeps. I'll probably pick up TLtL at some point in Hardcover too.

[Sarah]

Travis wrote: "I'm next in line at my library, and the next copy us due on the 2nd (yes, I know the exact date and am that eager to get my hands on this sequel). So I'm hoping to join this thread soon..."

Did you pick it up today Travis? I'm dying for someone to chat with about this!

[Kristin B.]

I got my copy from the library today! I just need to finish the other book I'm reading and I'll get started.

I'm really hoping I don't regret reading it, since I was so torn about TLtL. I'm pushing off other reading to fit Seven Surrenders in, and I'll be bummed if I'm still frustrated at the end of it.

[Travis]

Sarah wrote: "Travis wrote: "I'm next in line at my library, and the next copy us due on the 2nd (yes, I know the exact date and am that eager to get my hands on this sequel). So I'm hoping to join this thread s..."

Me too!!! Just picked up my copy. I need to finish the last 150 pages of The Night Circus first, but I can't wait to start SS.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Damn. That's a grim way to start. (view spoiler)[Right off the bat with a rape? Jesus. (hide spoiler)] But I guess I like how many answers I just got and all the symbolism of the first page?

[Kim]

Only just started. Thinking of it as part 2 of one big book it's not as such a jolt. And bizarrely they seemed to like it.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Yeah, but enjoying it don't make it something else.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Did you all read the inscription at the beginning from Apollo??? What does it mean!!!

[Kristin B.]

I'm on page 125 and things are starting to make sense. I still don't love the style, but it's nice to have some questions answered.

(view spoiler)[Although, I just finished chapter 8 and there was a weird mention of Bridger having nipples on his thumbs. The book has been weird. But that got super weird. How he fed himself as an infant is a question I did not need answered. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

Allison wrote: "Damn. That's a grim way to start. [spoilers removed] But I guess I like how many answers I just got and all the symbolism of the first page?"

It was kind of grim- but I really enjoyed (view spoiler)[Sniper's (hide spoiler)] voice. Just the cockiness of it minus the pretentiousness. It felt distinctly different from Mycroft and I think this is hard for a writer to do. In my head, Mycroft is telling his story in monologue form with all these different actors on stage, and for that one scene, Mycroft had totally vanished.

[Sarah]

What did everyone think of the chapter (view spoiler)[The Room Where Mycroft Canner Died (hide spoiler)]? It was my favorite one so far I think because it revealed so much of who Mycroft is.

[Kristin B.]

Sarah wrote: "What did everyone think of the chapter [spoilers removed]? It was my favorite one so far I think because it revealed so much of who Mycroft is."

I was really confused at first. (view spoiler)[I couldn't figure out how the one sentence Jehovah had said made any kind of difference. It started to make more sense as Mycroft began realizing that he had killed the Mardi bash for no reason. But that felt more like a revelation based on the new information of the secret alliances, than anything that was revealed to him by Jehovah. I'm still really lost as to what kind of special power Jehovah has, other than just being observant. As for explaining more of Mycroft's backstory, that I very much like. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

Kristin B. wrote: "Sarah wrote: "What did everyone think of the chapter [spoilers removed]? It was my favorite one so far I think because it revealed so much of who Mycroft is."

I was really confused at first. [spoi..."

If I remember correctly (and I could be wrong) (view spoiler)[ it was the revelation that he had not purely done evil for evil sake. Jehovah says "You disappoint me." Keep in mind Jehovah would have been about 8 or 9 years old I think. He had killed the Mardi bash to prove to the world that humanity was still capable of violence. Which is not evil for evil sake. This led to the revelation that he has no idea what God's plan is, or where the world his headed, or what effect he truly has on the world. So then Mycroft thinks Apollo could come back as anything, even an ant, because people must all be that small in God's eyes. So that's why he wears the special boots and does not kill and is benign. Jehovah's original statement.

I just liked that scene I guess because all along we have known that Mycroft is a borderline genius. People rely on him and go to him for advice and help. So when we were struck with the revelation that he was a killer it felt all wrong because he seems so gentle and loves Bridger so much. So that chapter I felt like revealed that he wasn't a monster, he was trying to make the world see the true nature of themselves and be prepared for the risks, which is also sort of what the Mardi bash were doing. (hide spoiler)]

I'm sorry if none of that made sense. Sometimes I have to write down all my thoughts and then go back to them and sort them out.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

can you say what the chapter name was or page number? I wanna discuss but I don't want to spoil!

[Sarah]

Allison wrote: "can you say what the chapter name was or page number? I wanna discuss but I don't want to spoil!"

Chapter 6- page 72-97. Sorry- I'll try to mark where they were in the book from here on out! I think most of us are past it but I don't want to ruin anything in case anyone joins in later.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Sarah wrote: "Allison wrote: "can you say what the chapter name was or page number? I wanna discuss but I don't want to spoil!"

Chapter 6- page 72-97. Sorry- I'll try to mark where they were in the book from he..."

Thank you! No, I think you're making the right choice :)

This spoiler responds to the conversation so far:

(view spoiler)[Sarah I agree that Sniper's voice was refreshing. It's been a long stint of Mycroft, and Sniper injected a new viewpoint I hadn't considered yet.

I loved that chapter! I think JEDD is a combo of observant and empath bound with an ironclad morality. So, like Julia knows people's weaknesses, she exploits them for personal gain while JEDD makes every choice with the thought of Justice and Goodness. And more importantly, he doesn't need sessions with people. That sentence he said to Mycroft meant little to us, maybe, but it was exactly what Mycroft couldn't hear and believe in himself. There's likely more to it, but that's the theory I'm working on. He is the all-loving. Bridger is the all-powerful. Now we just need the all-knowing! (hide spoiler)]

As of page 158/365:
(view spoiler)[What the hell is Carlyle playing at?? Their motivation is the only one I can't seem to understand. They just had betrayal three times, their world shattered, and Bridger's miracles put it all back together. Sit the f*&% down, Carlyle! Jeez. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

Allison wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Allison wrote: "can you say what the chapter name was or page number? I wanna discuss but I don't want to spoil!"

Chapter 6- page 72-97. Sorry- I'll try to mark where they were in th..."

Per Chapter 6:
(view spoiler)[Those are some interesting thoughts on JEDD. I've been thinking of him as a diviner of truth, similar to an empath. He looks at people and just knows, maybe reads body language or something. We know he isn't all knowing because he is unaware of the O.S. But once he's been let on to a problem or if someone poses a question, he knows the answer. (hide spoiler)]

Small spoiler for Chapter 10 pg 135-145
(view spoiler)[The only thing I disagree with, is that JEDD is all for Goodness. I think he has a very one way moral compass that does not account for shades of gray. When he finds out about what O.S. is doing, he decides the world needs to know, even though it could be argued that O.S. is saving the world instead of destroying it. Murder is undeniably, morally wrong. So despite the destruction revealing O.S. will cause, despite the fact that they have ushered in a "golden age" he will see justice done, but in this case seeing justice done isn't necessarily what is good. It will cause chaos, it will likely start a war, but the Truth/justice is more important to him than avoiding a war. I liken it to Christian views on God, free will, and original sin. The people must know and must decide for themselves whether or not O.S. is bad or good, he sees it as his duty to inform the people. (hide spoiler)]

pgs. 158/165
(view spoiler)[ Carlyle! They are driving me crazy in this book. I sort of liked them in the last one but in this one, overtime they pop up I'm just like- hasn't Sniper assassinated you yet?! (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Sarah wrote: "Small spoiler for Chapter 10 pg 135-145"

Mm, I can definitely see that. (view spoiler)[I think I am likely reading in theology I've heard, you're likely right. But I think to JEDD truth and justice are the ultimate goodness. If everyone had access to the entire truth, and knew that always, always there would be a balance to right any wrong, would that not be the path to the most moral path? (I'm not sure I agree with this btw, I'm just saying what it feels like JEDD believes). Yes, maybe several thousand or million people will be hurt now, but it will lead to that perfect future world that JEDD and seemingly Apollo wanted or at least foresaw. (hide spoiler)]

re: spoiler pp 158-165
lololol

But now I'm wondering what the hell (view spoiler)[Sniper's (hide spoiler)] game is!! WTF!

[Sarah]

Allison wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Small spoiler for Chapter 10 pg 135-145"

Mm, I can definitely see that. [spoilers removed]

re: spoiler pp 158-165
lololol

But now I'm wondering what the hell [spoilers removed] gam..."

Re: JEDD (view spoiler)[Yes! I've been thinking the same thing- he wants a hands off approach! Like nature must take its own course- and that is the way things must be. (hide spoiler)]

As for the other thing (I can't remember what chapter it is but it's 165-185ish (view spoiler)[I think Sniper is just trying to win over the crowd and make people love him. They already love him, but if they are going to follow someone to war it shouldn't be Tully, it should be Sniper. At least he knows how to kill stuff. Lol. It's that or he wants a war? That way if war comes no one can really be mad at O.S. for what they've done to prevent it. (hide spoiler)]

[Kristin B.]

I am so tempted to click on all the spoilers but I'm only on page 163! I need to get reading.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Kristin B. wrote: "I am so tempted to click on all the spoilers but I'm only on page 163! I need to get reading."

lol aside from the last spoiler Sarah posted, you should be able to see. I only just hit 175

[Sarah]

I'm not much further ahead then you guys. Pg 236 or so, only got there today.

I don't think anything we've discussed has been too spoilerific, but ever since that conversation Allison started about Spoilers and Triggers I've tried to be more conscientious of what other people consider spoilers. So I'm just playing it safe and marking everything.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

:)

Just started the next chapter at 203/365.

(view spoiler)[ Suddenly we're in a soap opera! I'm having a hard time getting everyone's motivations to line up with what we know so far. I see what you said but I think I'm still missing something. Sniper dedicated his life to stopping a war, and admits to loving Mycroft. So how does helping Tully help Sniper? Or is it to throw people off his bash's trail? And then what's up with Perry? Revenge, okay, but this dives into the realm of implausibility for me. To what end is he doing this? (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

Allison wrote: ":)

Just started the next chapter at 203/365.

[spoilers removed]"

Same chapter: (view spoiler)[I'm still not entirely sure about Sniper. Your ideas about Perry will be answered in the next 30 pages or so. There is more going on than it looks like. Somehow. Pay attention to what Croucher says when that part comes. (hide spoiler)]

[Kristin B.]

So on page 182 (view spoiler)[the text suddenly goes all wonky. There are two paragraphs side by side. I was really confused at first until I realized what was happening. The King of Spain was walking in during his introduction, so the introduction and the description of him entering were side by side on the page. I thought this was very clever. I'm wondering why she hasn't used any other visual associations like this before. It seems odd to only happen once in two books. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

Kristin B. wrote: "So on page 182 [spoilers removed]"

Yeah I thought that was weird too. I hadn't thought of it that way though - good point!

I think despite what anyone says about the book, that the author is very smart and very talented. It's been a long time since a book has made me feel so many different things. It's going to be hard waiting for the rest of the books.

[Kristin B.]

Sarah wrote: "I think despite what anyone says about the book, that the author is very smart and very talented. It's been a long time since a book has made me feel so many different things. It's going to be hard waiting for the rest of the books."

This is very true. I don't think I'll read the next two books in this series. However, I'd be interested to see what she would do with another book. I feel like if she continued writing fiction she would improve her focus and create something really magnificent.

[Kristin B.]

pg 216 (view spoiler)[Smelltracks! It's so nice to finally know how the witchcraft worked. Brilliant! (hide spoiler)]

pg 220 (view spoiler)[Do we think Croucher is right? Is the war happening because Bridger thinks it's going to? (hide spoiler)]

pg 264 (view spoiler)[Really, really, really did not see that coming. He hadn't even gotten to meet Bridger yet! (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

Kristin B. wrote: "pg 216 [spoilers removed]

pg 220 [spoilers removed]"

RE: 216 - Yes! I think it was neat (view spoiler)[finding out how her boots were weapons. I've been curious ever since Mycroft made her take them off in TLtL at the brothel. But now I'm curious what the heck she's been torturing Mycroft with and why. (hide spoiler)]

Pg 220 (view spoiler)[I honestly don't know at this point. I bought into it at first, but I think I was enjoying all this talk of gods and religion in the abstract more. I mean, to be fair, we're introduced to Bridger and told of all these miraculous things early, which I guess points to godhood, but then I got sucked into the other plot twists and now bringing this back I'm having to do a reality shift. It's kind of weird. (hide spoiler)]

[Kristin B.]

pg 274 (view spoiler)[Should have seen that coming. Not even ten pages before Bridger shows up and brings him back to life. (hide spoiler)]

pg. 280 (view spoiler)[I'm almost amused that Mycroft feels like he can kill again because he knows that universes won't die. I just love the phrase "even if one of you happens to be a god." This grand statement is made even better by the fact that he is promptly knocked unconscious. (hide spoiler)]

I apparently shouldn't be allowed near the discussion thread while I am actively reading the book. Every time something comes up that amuses/surprises/confuses me, I feel the need to come post it. I'm going to try to just finish the book now. ;)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Kristin, I understand the urge to post! I just got to page 256.
(view spoiler)[ I am on the edge of my seat! What happened to Bridger!! (hide spoiler)]

I think the philosophizing of the first book makes way more sense with what we're going through in this one. We needed to understand the thoughts going through everyone's heads, and it would have effed with the pacing to do it now.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

pg 266
(view spoiler)[OMTUG! (Oh my That Universe's God!) I see now why Sniper agreed with Tully but I still don't know how that makes JEDD their enemy! (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Kristin, 100% agree with what you say about pg 280. Absolutely perfect.

[Sarah]

Allison wrote: "pg 266
[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[I don't think Sniper see's JEDD as the enemy. I think JEDD was put in an unfortunate position and he had to die for that reason. Madame is the enemy, but it is JEDD who is poised to inherit everything, so it was him who had to die. Sniper says: "Even a well meaning monarch cannot think seven ways at once". Sniper loves his hive, the humanists, and he does not want it to be ruled with someone else who is not a Humanist. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

I am also agreeing that pg 280 was perfect. (view spoiler)[ And it put Mycroft's current benign state into a much more comprehensible state. I had missed the part where Mycroft wasn't worried about anyone being stuck in an ant body, only gods, because what if a universe died when the god's body died. (hide spoiler)]

Same chapter 18:
(view spoiler)[Do we think that Bridger is Apollo Mojave's son? Or is Mycroft just saying that Bridger is a creation of the god Apollo? (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Sarah, I think you're right. It was all explained after, though I still have questions. (view spoiler)[Because Sniper said they're a voker to the OS assassinations. They can't possibly continue that work now that they've attemped to assassinate JEDD. That's clearly not going to be okay, and the other OSs are already in custody. So they sacrificed their vocation for their Hive? Idunno. (hide spoiler)]