Determining Spoilers and Triggers

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

Yeah, I never read forewords until I'm done a book for this very reason.

[Kristin B.]

Kim wrote: "I missed this earlier but I hate spoilers in Forewords! Why do people do that. I'm about to read the book, stop talking about it like I've already read it. Do an Afterword. ..."

I had this problem with the copy of A Clockwork Orange that I had. I read the opening and ended up knowing how the whole story went. Made me hostile.

[Donald]

Kristin wrote: "I had this problem with the copy of A Clockwork Orange that I had. I read the opening and ended up knowing how the whole story went. Made me hostile. "

Oh god, there's a flashback. That's the only book I've not finished reading because it was simply nauseating. Funnily enough I don't know that any trigger warnings would have worked for me because it wasn't the actions (I think I've read worse in other books) but it was the sheer detail he put into them...

[Holly]

At this point in my life I have wasted enough time with books I didn't like to be bothered by spoilers. Personally I prefer to read a book that has been spoiled, but which I know I will enjoy reading; to a book I know nothing about, but might be a total waste of my time. I read reviews of a book that interests me especially for the spoilers; afterwards I have a much better idea if I should put it on my tbr or not.

As for triggers......those are so individual, aren't they? I adore the creative use of profanity.....use ALL the words! Gore & violence? Well, as long as it is applied to the bad guys who deserve it......I think it is wonderful. I hate rape; I can handle a few non-explicit mentions in the text, but that is my limit. Abuse and violence of the innocent, weak, helpless, animals, etc, is something I don't want to read about.......ever.

I'm not into literary self-flagellation, I want to read books I will enjoy, not books that will get me all riled up or depressed. I like books with themes that are deep, complex and meaningful; in fact, East of Eden is one of my favorite books, and it deals with the duality of human nature. It is also a great story, well told. I just want to avoid those books with the "bull in a china shop" approach to messaging.

Age appropriateness is also a thing for me. I know many adults who enjoy YA books, but I want to know beforehand if I am reading one. All of life's experiences are valid, especially when you are going through them yourself. Once that is part of your past, however, your interest in angsty teen relationships really drops off the charts.

[Joseph]

Holly wrote: "At this point in my life I have wasted enough time with books I didn't like to be bothered by spoilers. Personally I prefer to read a book that has been spoiled, but which I know I will enjoy readi..."

I have no idea what point you're at in your life, Holly, and I'm so with you on that "I want to know before I begin reading if I'll like it" thing. People think I'm strange because, when they tell me about a movie or book or some such, I'll ask how it ends. "Won't that spoil it for you?"
No, knowing how something ends doesn't spoil it for me, it lets me know if it's worth my time. I know my life ends in my death, that doesn't spoil me from living and enjoying it, though.

And yes, use all the words. Just use them wisely and well. (I'll have to look up what you're reading. You've convinced me they must be gems).

Where we might differ is in the use of violence. I don't care for explicit violence for violence's sake, much like I don't care for movie special effects for special effects sake. Readers have told me they appreciate how I handle violence by not showing it, instead showing characters' reactions to it and usually in aftermath. A trusted character reacting to something and showing horror is more powerful to me than simply showing horror. In the end, I prefer some horror to full horror and implied to detailed.

And I so appreciate you point of view. Thanks for sharing it.

[Mae]

Joseph wrote: I'm so with you on that "I want to know before I begin reading if I'll like it" thing. People think I'm strange because, when they tell me about a movie or book or some such, I'll ask how it ends.

I'm so glad I'm not the only one. People always give me VERY weird looks when I read the last page in a book before deciding if I want to buy it or not - but the ending is important. It doesn't matter that it was a great story with great characters if the ending is one of those that I absolutely detest or simply a case of the story running out into the sand.

Most of the time I'm perfectly good with spoilers - they don't spoil anything for me. Just like learning how a particular special effect was created doesn't take anything away from the experience when viewing it (if anything, it adds another layer of enjoyment to it).

[Joseph]

Mae wrote: " Joseph wrote: I'm so with you on that "I want to know before I begin reading if I'll like it" thing. People think I'm strange because, when they tell me about a movie or book or some such, I'll as..."

Mae, I've read too many books where, at some point, it seemed the author lost interest, was going to miss their deadline, had another project come up they were more interested in, ... All of which mean a book I was enjoying peters out to mediocrity (I so dislike mediocrity!).
Knowing a story has power from beginning to end, that's what I like, that's what keeps me reading.

[Trike]

It's like listening to aliens talk. Who ARE you people?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Yeah, this is eye-opening! I prefer to know nothing about the book going in, unless it's about something I know I can't handle, like learning that Children of Time is about spiders. That was helpful to know.

That said, I do sometimes spoil things for myself. If I'm really concerned about something, I'll stop reading and figure out the answer to my question, which often involves spoiling other parts of the story. But I figure if I'm already that nervous, I'm not enjoying the story as it is told anyways, so I might as well learn if this is a make or break moment and save myself the anxiety.

[Joseph]

Allison wrote: "Yeah, this is eye-opening! I prefer to know nothing about the book going in, unless it's about something I know I can't handle, like learning that Children of Time is about spiders. That was helpfu..."

Could you provide a pointer to Children of Time? There seem to be several with that title. Thanks.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Joseph wrote: "Allison wrote: "Yeah, this is eye-opening! I prefer to know nothing about the book going in, unless it's about something I know I can't handle, like learning that Children of Time is about spiders...."

Oh, sure. Children of Time.

[Joseph]

Allison wrote: "Joseph wrote: "Allison wrote: "Yeah, this is eye-opening! I prefer to know nothing about the book going in, unless it's about something I know I can't handle, like learning that Children of Time is..."

Thanks. Seems interesting. Just downloaded it. I'll keep it for one of my vacation reads.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Joseph wrote: "Allison wrote: "Joseph wrote: "Allison wrote: "Yeah, this is eye-opening! I prefer to know nothing about the book going in, unless it's about something I know I can't handle, like learning that Chi..."

I've heard excellent things! I hope you enjoy it :)

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Trike wrote: "It's like listening to aliens talk. Who ARE you people?"

^this

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Allison wrote: "Yeah, this is eye-opening! I prefer to know nothing about the book going in, unless it's about something I know I can't handle, like learning that Children of Time is about spiders. That was helpfu..."


There's no way in HELL. Nope, nope, nope.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

MrsJoseph wrote: "Allison wrote: "Yeah, this is eye-opening! I prefer to know nothing about the book going in, unless it's about something I know I can't handle, like learning that Children of Time is about spiders...."

I tried to figure out how many panic attacks it was worth, but go figure, most people who can read a story about spiders don't get panic attacks from those spiders, so they weren't able to give me a reliable estimate.

[Trike]

MrsJoseph wrote: "Allison wrote: "Yeah, this is eye-opening! I prefer to know nothing about the book going in, unless it's about something I know I can't handle, like learning that Children of Time is about spiders...."

Don't look at this photo I took. Don't do it!

https://www.instagram.com/p/BXQat_hBajD/

[Mae]

Allison wrote: I tried to figure out how many panic attacks it was worth, but go figure, most people who can read a story about spiders don't get panic attacks from those spiders, so they weren't able to give me a reliable estimate.

Even a trigger warning on a book like that would give me the shivers *shudders*

[Donald]

Trike wrote: "It's like listening to aliens talk. Who ARE you people?"

My wife does it.

We don't talk about books any more.

[Kristin B.]

Trike wrote: "Don't look at this photo I took. Don't do it!..."

Allison definitely shouldn't look! But I actually love spiders. He's a cute little fellow. :)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Donald wrote: "Trike wrote: "It's like listening to aliens talk. Who ARE you people?"

My wife does it.

We don't talk about books any more."

bwahahaha!

Kristin B. wrote: "Trike wrote: "Don't look at this photo I took. Don't do it!..."

Allison definitely shouldn't look! But I actually love spiders. He's a cute little fellow. :)"

I'm a good advice-follower. I'll be over here, unscarred.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Donald wrote: "Trike wrote: "It's like listening to aliens talk. Who ARE you people?"

My wife does it.

We don't talk about books any more."

bwahahaha!

Kristin B. wrote: "Trike wrote: "Don't look at this photo I took. Don't do it!..."

Allison definitely shouldn't look! But I actually love spiders. He's a cute little fellow. :)"

I'm a good advice-follower. I'll be over here, unscarred.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Kristin B. wrote: "Trike wrote: "Don't look at this photo I took. Don't do it!..."

Allison definitely shouldn't look! But I actually love spiders. He's a cute little fellow. :)"

I should not have looked.

:-(

[Trike]

If it's any consolation, he's smaller than the tip of a ballpoint pen. Couldn't hurt you if he tried.

[Kristin B.]

MrsJoseph wrote: "I should not have looked.

:-( ..."

So what you're saying, is you don't generally pay attention to trigger warnings. lol ;)

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Kristin B. wrote: "MrsJoseph wrote: "I should not have looked.

:-( ..."

So what you're saying, is you don't generally pay attention to trigger warnings. lol ;)"

I do. But then I read YOUR comment about being cute. Cute. Nothing cute there unless you like Red Death. :-P

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Trike wrote: "If it's any consolation, he's smaller than the tip of a ballpoint pen. Couldn't hurt you if he tried."

>.>
<.<

Ha!

[Mae]

Trike wrote: "If it's any consolation, he's smaller than the tip of a ballpoint pen. Couldn't hurt you if he tried."

You know when they say "size doesn't matter"? They're right...

[Trike]

It's more scared of you than you are of it.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Trike wrote: "It's more scared of you than you are of it."

This is true. This is why they bite. Cause they know they kill.

O_O

[Mae]

It's more scared of you than you are of it.

It could have very, she-lob, sized relatives lurking in a dark corner somewhere...

It's the one time I pay attention to trigger warnings.

[Kristin B.]

MrsJoseph wrote: "I do. But then I read YOUR comment about being cute. Cute. Nothing cute there unless you like Red Death. :-P ..."

He is cute! And he eats bugs. Which makes him useful.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Gah! We're still talking about it!

So...uh...getting it back to being considerate about spoilers and triggers, I just employed Colleen's tactic of marking the CWs inside a spoiler tag, and I think I'm quite pleased with the result.

The only thing that makes me uncomfortable about is how many people have triggers (i.e. all humans) and like warnings (some portion less than all humans) but either can't click the warning because they're using the app, or have a vendetta against spoiler tags or what have you. I guess that's a "you can't save them all" situation, though.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

CWs?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Also, "it's more scared of you than you are of it" is profoundly unsettling because my fear causes me to murder them.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Kristin B. wrote: "MrsJoseph wrote: "I do. But then I read YOUR comment about being cute. Cute. Nothing cute there unless you like Red Death. :-P ..."

He is cute! And he eats bugs. Which makes him useful."

pffffffft!

[Mae]

a vendetta against spoiler tags ah, thank you, I needed that laugh after all the *shudders*.

Is there an option where you could tell the book/review/thingy that you don't mind spoilers so you see them, but for those that do want them, they, well, do? Obviously it doesn't work in actual, printed books, but for reviews it could be useful...maybe?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

MrsJoseph wrote: "CWs?"

Yeah, the CBS and Warner warnings "hulky men will cry in this book" etc.

No! That was "content warnings," sorry :-)

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

lolol

[Kristin B.]

Allison wrote: "Also, "it's more scared of you than you are of it" is profoundly unsettling because my fear causes me to murder them."

I am not entirely sure why, but I found this really amusing. And adding the italics caused me to picture you saying it while clenching your fist while your voice rose dramatically.

However, your logic is infallible. I will be sure not to use that argument on anyone in future.

How about "They have much less capacity to cause you harm, than you do to cause them harm?"

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Kristin B. wrote: "Allison wrote: "Also, "it's more scared of you than you are of it" is profoundly unsettling because my fear causes me to murder them."

I am not entirely sure why, but I found this really amusing. ..."

Haha! Yes, that is more acceptable. :-) I hope one day to have had enough therapy that this is a helpful piece of advice. Then I will book a trip to Australia and rule the world!

[Lexxi Kitty]

Kristin B. wrote: "They have much less capacity to cause you harm, than you do to cause them harm?"

Depends on if poisonous or not. Same with snakes - the smaller ones are sometimes a lot more dangerous than the larger ones. Well, poison-wise. Like - tarantula's are used in horror-films less because they are deadly killers of humans, but because they are easy to handle, capture on film, and have very low toxicity to humans.

So saying 'it's harmless, it's really tiny' isn't really a help. heh.

(my skin is crawling now, had to accidentally see pictures of tarantula's so I could be sure I spelled the name correctly. *shudders*)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Lexxi Kitty wrote: "Kristin B. wrote: "They have much less capacity to cause you harm, than you do to cause them harm?"

Depends on if poisonous or not. Same with snakes - the smaller ones are sometimes a lot more dan..."

Oh no! So sorry!

[Trike]

So "Boris the Spider" by The Who is right out, then?

Don't watch this video!

TRIGGER WARNING - DO NOT CROSS - TRIGGER WARNING

https://youtu.be/SgRPu9YZg98

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Still with the spiders???

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

No! We're moving on! Never again will I make the mistake of trying to talk reasonably about how glad I am to get warnings of things like this! (but really, thanks all for hiding the pictures. A plus work only making me think about them this much! That sounds sarcastic but it isn't!)

Another thing I am curious about is why everyone feels like all social media is built for play by play reactions. Twitter...maybe. But the ones that are more static? A dude spoiled Force Awakens as he came out of the midnight showing and got gut-checked for it. This is why I'm not sure I find vigilante-ism a negative. (I'm kidding, violence and vigilantes are bad. ...Don't spoil things!)

[David]

I honestly have never, ever cared about spoilers. I don't read/watch things because of some unexpected twist, it's the execution that matters. If you know what's going to happen ahead of time and that takes the enjoyment out of it, it was shallow entertainment to begin with, imo. I mean, what happens when/if you read it the second time, do you just lose all enjoyment? If a book can't hold up to a second reading it's bad and you dodged a bullet.

I basically know all the big plot points of The Dark Tower series, but that doesn't make me not want to read it. In fact, if I hadn't been spoiled on the weird places it goes later on, I probably wouldn't be interested in the first place because fantasy western written by Stephen King, on its face, doesn't appeal to me. Spoilers are often necessary to generate interest in the first place, I find. If I didn't "spoil" my girlfriend on a huge surprising thing that happens in the second Queen's Thief book, she never would have even tried the series, much less kept reading after the first book which is very different and less her kind of thing. She needed to know that the second book is very different, and that something very relevant to her interests happens in it, even though it's written to be a shocking surprise.

I absolutely respect that other people care about them, but because this is how I have always seen things it makes me somewhat careless, I have unintentionally spoiled people on things many times because it just didn't seem like a big deal to me and I wasn't thinking.

[Trike]

David wrote: "I honestly have never, ever cared about spoilers. I don't read/watch things because of some unexpected twist, it's the execution that matters. If you know what's going to happen ahead of time and that takes the enjoyment out of it, it was shallow entertainment to begin with, imo. I mean, what happens when/if you read it the second time, do you just lose all enjoyment?"

No, you enjoy it on another level for different reasons.

The first time you experience something you get the thrill of the new. The second time you experience it to catch things you missed, or to recontextualize what you've seen. Subsequent times it becomes "comfort food."

Murder mysteries are a good example. The first time through it unfolds for you, you're trying to figure out whodunit. If the author is a good craftsman, then you feel satisfied with the resolution. The second time through you're looking for the clues which were right there the whole time and either you completely missed them or the author used your expectations against you, essentially forcing an error on your side of the communication by hacking your preconceived notions.

Comedy actually works this way, too. The secret to good comedy is surprise, and that often comes from the unexpected twist. Henny Youngman's classic, "Take my wife... please," is the perfect example of this whole idea. Despite the fact that joke (and it is the entire joke, hence its brilliance) is now over 60 years old, it still works because we still preface stories that way. To subvert expectations with a single word is genius. Books have been written explaining all the levels that joke works on.

But the second time you hear the joke, it works like music. Literally like music. It has a rhythm and familiarity, and it pulses down the same neurons, triggering a nostalgic feeling.

Jerry Seinfeld often talks about the rhythm of jokes, how the cadence can be used to lull the audience into going one way, allowing the comedian to pivot and deliver the punch line, which is like a little jolt of adrenaline. But at the same time he complains that on the road audiences call out for jokes like they're asking musicians to play their favorite song. He's not putting together the two disparate types of enjoyment we get from different experiences of the same thing.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I think it also depends a bit on the book. For example I specifically sought out a spoiler on a book that I'd seen some dark murmurings about, and that discussion allowed me to decide whether or not I wanted to take the plunge. If I hadn't had anyone to ask about that plot point, I likely would have passed entirely on the book.

And then there are books like Too Like the Lightning, where for me, if I'd know anything about what happened before I read it in context, it would have sounded awful. But in context it was riveting and I loved trying to piece together what was happening. I will likely go back and re-read these books because now that I am past discovery, I want to examine it more closely. It was close to a thriller the first read--the second can be for the philosophy.

Also, I don't often re-read books. I have a hard time reading multiple books by the same authors, even (this is a recent trend. My younger self could and did binge series mercilessly). There's so much out there, often the first contact is my only contact, and I personally prefer it to be devoid of expectation, simply for my own maximum enjoyment. In fact, the books that surprise me most are usually the only ones I want to re-read. Like Trike said, the second time is about finding the things I missed the first time. If I feel I got it all the first time, I would argue that that is a weaker book than one that benefits from unanticipated plot developments.

[Trike]

It doesn't even have to be about the twist itself, it can be about the ramifications of that twist. A Game of Thrones (the first book in Martin's series, not the TV show) is famous because of the twist, but the point of that twist is the subversion of expectations. What we get for the first 3/4s of that book is Martin setting up a classic Epic Fantasy, and then he pulls the rug out from under you. Now you have to read on to see how this will play out.

What Martin did wasn't even unique. It happens all the time, to the point where there's even a trope named for it. Spoiler for the trope and an example: (view spoiler)[It's called "Anyone Can Die", and it's a very old trope. The most famous version of it is in Psycho, where Janet Leigh is killed off early in the film. To get why that was a big deal back in 1960, imagine going to a movie starring Jennifer Lawrence, where all the advertising touts Jennifer Lawrence in the exciting new Jennifer Lawrence picture... and seeing her character die in the first 15 minutes. Audiences would be all "WTF?!" Which is what happened back then. That's why Psycho has that extended coda at the end, where the movie continues long after the story is over. Today it feels weird and seemingly drags on forever, but audiences needed that time to decompress and absorb what they had just watched. It was sort of an early example of an after show like Talking Dead, except built right into the movie. (hide spoiler)]

Movies like Memento reward paying close attention, where a single shot that flashes onscreen for just a moment literally changes the entire movie. The first time I saw that, I was watching it with some friends and two of us shouted and pointed at the screen when it happened. We had to rewind it two or three times so the others could see it. It happens so quickly that even when watching for it you can miss it. But those few frames change the entire story. And that happens in a movie that's told in reverse order, fer cry. It's already challenging. When you watch the whole thing again from the beginning with this new knowledge, there's an entire layer of subtext that's invisible the first time through.

I had a similar experience with The Sixth Sense. I thought I was being clever by noticing the continuity errors, of which there are several. Except of course there aren't any. Those "mistakes" are part of the story. When I rewatched it a second time, I marveled how Shyamalan used my own smugness against me. I'm all, "Not as good as you think you are," and he's all, "I'm better than that." And I had to give it up, because he was. Same thing with Back to the Future -- the first time through you just enjoy the movie. The second time through you notice the myriad details and gags in the background.

Sometimes it's more subtle, as in Taxi Driver, where a simple question about the ending -- "Is that stuff all in his head?" -- causes you to go back through the film to see where the break from reality comes... whereupon you realize that holy shit it comes waaaay earlier than you expected. (view spoiler)[It's in the famous "You talkin' to me?" scene. The camera pushes in on the image of De Niro in the mirror, and when it cuts back, the room is still reversed. It's subtle, but it's there. Everything after that moment happens in his imagination. (hide spoiler)]