Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion? Showing 4,001-4,050 of 12,463

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Most people grow up learning a religion. It falls apart either because of education such as a class in Comparative Religions, travel in a foreign country or personal life horrors. Most atheists used to be religious. Once some of us get educated about the real life creation of the Bible, you feel damn stupid and angry for awhile, depending, or at minimum, shocked, that you were lied to and you might feel tricked, or sad at losing your faith, (can you remember when you discovered Santa Claus didn't exist if you are Western World, for instance?). Atheists are humans with families and jobs, and have friends and family who are believers still.

[[deleted user]]

Hazel wrote: "no, we don't want you to decide its all crap, we don't want you to stop believing if you don't want, you're free to believe what you want, as is your right, but please, don't just accept what autho..."

Thank you, Hazel. I wish that this had been stated before. It would have saved us all this bantering. I don't believe in God because a priest told me. Nor do I blindly follow what is written in the Bible. I have strayed from my church for many years, but as much as I try to distance myself from religion, I cannot distance myself from God. Not to sound soppy, but He alone has saved me from things people around me couldn't it wouldn't. He has given me hope. I know that but I of course cannot give you any proof. Anyway, this us not anything revelatory and and it's time I removed myself from this discussion. I am not a masochist.

[Hazel]

April the Cheshire Meow wrote: "Atheists are humans with families and jobs, and have friends and family who are believers still. "

come now April, don't lie, we're all demons, and we eat babies for dinner everyday, and I don't know about you, but I can shoot lasers from my eyes, and I fart rainbows in order to further the gay agenda.

[Hazel]

Lila wrote: "Hazel wrote: "no, we don't want you to decide its all crap, we don't want you to stop believing if you don't want, you're free to believe what you want, as is your right, but please, don't just acc..."

before you go, I need a little closure, doesn't it matter to you if your belief that god exists is true or not?

[Maria]

Hazel, I don't think it does matter to Lila or anyone who is a beliver because it gives them hope and a sense that someone out there is watching over them and will help them with life. Plus, as we've said, it really can't be proven, which to some means it is not true, and to others means it's just something you have to have faith in.

Lila, no one wants to rob anyone else of whatever faith they have. Obviously your belief and faith that God has helped you has given you peace of mind and has helped you cope with what life has thrown at you. Whether anyone else agrees with you or not, that is your coping mechanism and if it helps you get through each day then, for you, it's a good thing.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Hazel wrote: "April the Cheshire Meow wrote: "Atheists are humans with families and jobs, and have friends and family who are believers still. "

come now April, don't lie, we're all demons, and we eat babies fo..."

; D

[Hazel]

April the Cheshire Meow wrote: "Hazel wrote: "April the Cheshire Meow wrote: "Atheists are humans with families and jobs, and have friends and family who are believers still. "

come now April, don't lie, we're all demons, and we..."

I am the dragon that doesn't exist... hear me roar... metaphorically...

[Maria]

Oh, dragons exist...just ask Old Barbarossa.

[Travis]

Wow, I just stepped away from the computer for an hour and all this stuff happened.
Curse me for going out into the real world!

Lila: Personally, I'd be thrilled if we got you to realize religion is myth and BS and moved on with your life.
But, I'm old and wise enough to know that ain't likely, so relax, stay with what helps you get through this strange little world of ours, and I will settle for interesting conversation.

cs: I actually feed off the souls of the innocent and french roast coffee.

[Drew]

Maria wrote: "Hazel, I don't think it does matter to Lila or anyone who is a beliver because it gives them hope and a sense that someone out there is watching over them and will help them with life. Plus, as we..."

I'm not trying to be mean or rude but I do want to "rob" people of their faith. Why, you ask. Because I am so sick to death of people saying "it's God's blessing" whenever something good happens. Saying "God works in mysterious ways" whenever something bad or unusual happens. Constantly preaching to me, yes it happens constantly, making issues out of things that should not be issues (abortion, gay marriage, music, etc.). Basically making everything suck, because they THINK they have the answers.

[Hazel]

I only keep believers in my life so that I can harvest their babies, baptised babies just taste so much better, my nephew is fattening up nicely,in about a year, he'll make a wonderful centrepiece for christmas dinner...

[Drew]

Hazel wrote: "I only keep believers in my life so that I can harvest their babies, baptised babies just taste so much better, my nephew is fattening up nicely,in about a year, he'll make a wonderful centrepiece ..."

LOL, dat's funny

[Hazel]

Drew, that pisses me off quite often too. It really pissed me off when a friend of mine went through months of fertility treatments, and IV fertilisation and implantations, and then when she finally got pregnant, everyone was all "god has blessed you" and "gods given you a miricle". So I put "what a wonderful thing medical science has achieved for you".

[Maria]

Drew, I understand how you feel, but it doesn't sound like you want to really rob people of their faith, you just want them to keep it to themselves and leave you alone. I agree. I hate to hear a voice mail message where they say "have a blessed day". You can tell immediately that this is someone who is going to force their beliefs on you.

[Travis]

Hazel wrote: "Drew, that pisses me off quite often too. It really pissed me off when a friend of mine went through months of fertility treatments, and IV fertilisation and implantations, and then when she finall..."

Never a fan of the whole 'it's god's will' when something horrible happens.
Earthquake wipes out a town, it's 'Mysterious ways'. Never 'Boy, that god's a bit of a jerk!'.
One person survives a disaster and it's a miracle, when in fact god just missed one.
He has notoriously bad aim. Had to flood all of New orleans to get at the gay people. Couldn't pick them off one by one, I guess.
god must stink at one person shooter video games.

[cHriS]

Maria wrote: "Here's what I was taught growing up:

Old Barby said, chill out, don't act so put-upon, and use this forum to discuss all the differences we all seem to have. For the most part, except for a few exceptions (hi, cs) no one is being rude. No one here dislikes anyone else, we don't even know each other. It's just sharing ideas and opinions.



You forgot the exception to the rule........

message 695: by Hazel (last edited 7 hours, 18 min ago) - rated it 5 stars 7 hours, 19 min ago
....... and I don't think that cs was making a joke, I think he has a shitty sense of humour, he's simply not funny if thats what he's attempting. I see nothing british in his "sense of humour", its not self deprecating enough.

[Hazel]

that wasn't rude, that was a statement of opinion. I'm entitled to my opinion, and to express it. If you think that what you said was funny, then you don't understand humour, and certainly not "british humour", Rowan Atkinson, you ain't. Now thats rude, as its a direct statement, directed at you. That wasn't what I did now, is it. I said "I think", thus not rude, just opinion.

[[deleted user]]

Travis wrote: "we drift into conversations about Sean Bean"

Didn't look at this site yesterday or today, until now, and there were 161 posts! Attempting to catch up but had to reply to this right away.

Ah, Travis .... I'm beginning to think you might enjoy my Sean Bean commentary, at least a bit.

He still lives! And, he was good and has been reunited with his family! Granted, he was shot last night, but he is very alive!

[Hazel]

I'm in a conversation about sean bean on two different threads, we just got to the point of talking about what a lovely guy he is, after discovering one of the lads in the conversation has sat and had a drink with him in London, and this came up in the conversation:

http://www.metro.co.uk/showbiz/866303...

And I just love how despite it all, he just goes back inside and has another drink.

[[deleted user]]

Maria wrote: "Shannon - you said that your students "think it's wrong to celebrate something that's based in a lie" - referring to Thanksgiving. How do they feel about celebrating Christmas, which is also based..."

I wouldn't know. I teach English, not history. In addition, I make it a point not to discuss religion or holidays with them. I will never do so. I don't think it's appropriate.

However, for the last few years as we come to our Thanksgiving break, students will enter my room saying, well, what I mentioned. I say, "Let's start class." They ask if I think it's stupid. I either say, "Let's start class," or "Well, I will say your historical facts are accurate."

Usually one of them will say, "But, you have American Indian. Doesn't it make you mad?"

I say, "I'm not going to have this discussion. Let's start class."

So ... I can't answer your question.

[[deleted user]]

Gary wrote: "So some people would say that you were the heretic as you were imitating Christ instead of obeying him.
...

1 Timothy 2:11-12 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.""

Careful. Paul reportedly said that, not Jesus. In addition, from information detailed in the Bible, Paul was not a disciple and didn't study under or learn directly from Jesus.

[cHriS]

cs wrote: "Maria wrote: "Here's what I was taught growing up:

Old Barby said, chill out, don't act so put-upon, and use this forum to discuss all the differences we all seem to have. For the most part, exce..."

message 695: by Hazel (last edited 7 hours, 18 min ago) - rated it 5 stars 7 hours, 19 min ago
....... and I don't think that cs was making a joke, I think he has a shitty sense of humour, he's simply not funny if thats what he's attempting. I see nothing british in his "sense of humour", its not self deprecating enough.

.."

I think the writer of the above is offensively self-assured, an autocratic person, showing autocratic behavior, bossy, a rather aggressive and dominating character and views others in an aloof magisterial way.

[Hazel]

nah, not me. I'm lovely, you just don't like me, and thats fine, because I don't like you much either. Yeah, I can be self assured, but I wonder how being self assured can be offensive. I'm generally laid back, and I'm usually happy to let other people make decisions, I'm relatively easy going, and happy to go with the flow.

Of course, you're more than welcome to view things the way you've written, thats your prerogative, and I won't take offence, for a couple of reasons 1) taking offence means you can't control your own emotional response, and so expect other people to do it for you, and 2) your opinion about me means shit to me, I couldn't care less what you think. Have a nice day :)

[[deleted user]]

Hazel wrote: "after discovering one of the lads in the conversation has sat and had a drink with him in London"

NO WAY!!

Sigh ....

[Hazel]

Shannon wrote: "Hazel wrote: "after discovering one of the lads in the conversation has sat and had a drink with him in London"

NO WAY!!

Sigh ...."

apparently he's really nice, and not in any way a violent person, and the Londoner had problems understanding his northern accent...

of course, you realise that via the power of 6 (ie you're never more than 6 people away from anyone else in the world), that through me, you're 4 steps removed from sean. My stepdad went to school with mark addy, who played Robert Baratheon in Game of Thrones...

[[deleted user]]

Hazel wrote: "apparently he's really nice."

Well, that does it! I'm 10x more devoted now! ;)

And, I was definitely thinking about the whole power of 6 thing.

Wow!

Of course, you know what this means Travis ....

[Travis]

Shannon wrote: "Travis wrote: "we drift into conversations about Sean Bean"

Didn't look at this site yesterday or today, until now, and there were 161 posts! Attempting to catch up but had to reply to this right..."

Shannon: I just find it cute and amusing, as it reminds me of my wife's Gerard Butler obsession.
It's a nice break from the main conversation.

Hazel: irony alert: the religious folk ( that ones that know how the world was made and who is going to heaven) find self-assurance an offensive trait.

[[deleted user]]

Travis wrote: "Shannon: I just find it cute and amusing, as it reminds me of my wife's Gerard Butler obsession.
It's a nice break from the main conversation."

So, the question is ...

Is Gerard Butler a really nice guy?

Another ...

Do any of us have a connection to him?

Sadly, sigh, I do not.

But, oh, happy day, I now have a connection to Sean Bean!

;)

[Hazel]

see, the problem with Gerard Butler, is that in 300, he really looked like a bigger Griff Rhys Jones, so I just can't take him seriously, or find him attractive...

[Drew]

Maria wrote: "Drew, I understand how you feel, but it doesn't sound like you want to really rob people of their faith, you just want them to keep it to themselves and leave you alone. I agree. I hate to hear a..."

I'm glad you noticed the quotation marks around the word rob. I do want to wake them up out of their ignorance and my motivation is because they just can't seem to keep their noses out of everyone's business.

[Travis]

Shannon wrote: "Travis wrote: "Shannon: I just find it cute and amusing, as it reminds me of my wife's Gerard Butler obsession.
It's a nice break from the main conversation."

So, the question is ...

Is Gerard Bu..."

He seems like a nice guy in his movies.
He is on my list of 'annoyingly handsome and charming guys that I can't begrudge my wife swooning over'.
Probably should come up with an acronym for that. It's getting to be a pain to type it up.

[[deleted user]]

Travis wrote: "Probably should come up with an acronym for that. It's getting to be a pain to type it up. "

If I think of one, I'll let you know. ;)

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

"Her Hero Harem"

[Old-Barbarossa]

Is this like the celebrity shag list they had in the TV show Friends?

[Tim]

Travis, there may be a word already for it in The Meaning of Liff, by Douglas Adams, another fantastic contribution by the English to humour. There is definitely it's opposite: the feeling of completely irrational jealousy one's partner has towards an old high school flame of yours that you never think about. But I forget the word. Could be 'wyoming'...

[cerebus]

Lila wrote: "And by the way, I don't care about the stupid cartoon. It does nothing for or to me. I will always believe. All it does is just show me that the real audience it's written for, the audience who indeed enjoys it is, not only ignorant but arrogant as well, claiming to know all there is to know without bothering to even hide the fact they know nothing of the sort nor do they care to. "
Actually there are studies that have shown that in general atheists are more informed about religion than many who identify as religious, usually because they have read the bible and have looked into the subject.
Which bit of the interpretation from the cartoon, or from the explanations given by Hazel and Gary, are you disagreeing with? What is your interpretation of the genesis story of adam and eve and the apple?

[cerebus]

cs wrote: "Atheists are very intolerant."
Ah, the irony....and interjected right in the middle of Lila actually doing the decent thing and engaging in the discussion, answering questions and asking her own. Is this your attempt cs to derail that? Unless you are going to finally answer some of the questions you were asked, we can only assume this is more trolling....

[cerebus]

Lila wrote: "Just who exactly are you trying to convince here and of what.."
That if you want to have a discussion on science and religion you need to step past blind faith and actually question your own beliefs. It's all part of critical thinking. If you do so and it strengthens your beliefs, or leaves them unchanged, fine. It has been said before in this thread that we are not trying to convert you, but if you join in the discussion you have to expect to be able to explain your position without resorting to blind faith.

[cerebus]

Lila wrote: "fair, open-minded discussion"
If your implication is that this discussion is not fair and open-minded, please show where. Just so you know, fair and open-minded does not equal accepting blindly what you say and not expecting the integrity to back up your position.

[[deleted user]]

Cerebus wrote: "fair and open-minded does not equal accepting blindly what you say and not expecting the integrity to back up your position"

I'm not Lila, obviously, but, if I had to guess, I'd say it had to do with people being called idiots and ignorant. I had to catch up on over a hundred posts last night, though, and my eyes started to blur more than once. In fact, I must admit I resorted to skimming from time to time.

The next thing I knew ... Travis was talking of Sean Bean ... ah ... Ha, ha ...

[[deleted user]]

In fact, despite the definitions thrown out, this is how "ignorant" is actually defined.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictio...

I'd especially take a look at all of the synonyms. If people bristle at the word, it might be due to their being aware of its actual connotations.

The question for me would be ...

If we were to have a fair and open-minded discussion, would we do so without name-calling? I can just feel someone about to say, "Boo hoo, Shannon. We're all adults."

I'm just saying ....

If were were truly open-minded, would we, while we might not accept a person's belief or argument, hear them and converse with them without calling them idiots or ignorant?

And, I'll go on the record as saying I'm not okay with such name-calling. I wasn't okay with the children calling the atheists nasty names and telling all of you that you were going to hell, etc.... I'm not okay with atheists calling believers idiots and ignorant. But, I attempted to point that out months and months ago. I decided not to go there again, until ...

I know you didn't ask me. But .... It seems you want answers. Answers, in general, not just from specific people. So, I decided to throw that out there.

In my mind, if our belief or argument is valid, we should be able to make our point without resorting to this. (Though, I will admit to getting frustrated and wanting to let it rip more than once.)

[cerebus]

Shannon wrote: "I'm not Lila, obviously, but, if I had to guess, I'd say it had to do with people being called idiots and ignorant. I had to catch up on over a hundred posts last night, though, and my eyes started to blur more than once. In fact, I must admit I resorted to skimming from time to time...."
I called one person an idiot, and he deserved it. Ignorant we covered, it doesn't mean stupid, we are all ignorant, just depends on the subject. I am ignorant of a lot more than I am knowledgeable in....we all are.
As for catching up, I know how you feel, I'm trying to do it with jet lag in an airport.....I don't know if i'm coming or going!

[[deleted user]]

Cerebus wrote: "I called one person an idiot, and he deserved it. Ignorant we covered, it doesn't mean stupid, we are all ignorant, just depends on the subject. I am ignorant of a lot more than I am knowledgeable in....we all are."

Well, I know you guys covered ignorant. However, your definition doesn't exactly match Webster, which says "destitute of knowledge" ... and lists "illiterate" as a synonym. For most people, that would equate with ... you're dumb as a box of rocks, otherwise known as stupid. So, I think it stands to reason that most people, reading these posts, would know Webster's definition and those connotations. Right? Just pointing that out....

Good luck with the jet lag.

[cerebus]

Shannon wrote: "destitute of knowledge."
Yeah, that would do it....i'mdestitute of knowledge in Polynesian artwork....I'm totally ignorant in that area. I accept it can have negative connotations, but the great thing about discussing is you can clarify what you mean, and if someone takes (understandable) offence to a term, it can be clarified to show it wasn't intended in that way.....

[[deleted user]]

Cerebus wrote: "Shannon wrote: "destitute of knowledge."
Yeah, that would do it....i'mdestitute of knowledge in Polynesian artwork....I'm totally ignorant in that area. I accept it can have negative connotations,..."

Maybe. Here's a thought, though.

If the point is to have an open-minded discussion, what is more apt to lead to open-mindedness? What might get people to think and question?

Speaking from personal experience, when I first saw this thread, I didn't go back and read all the posts. I just answered ... I'm pretty sure I said I wanted to live in a world with both and was glad I didn't have to choose. I didn't read again for awhile. Then, I started reading again when people were poking fun at and making jokes about the Amish. I was pretty horrified by that behavior and said so.

At that point, it changed a bit. People, I think Hazel, started asking me questions. Why did I believe? What was my evidence?

That ... got me thinking.

Now, the atheists don't hold with my evidence as such. Fine. But, I sat down and thought and thought about it. What did I believe? Why did I believe? Did I have evidence? If I didn't, was that okay with me? And, I discussed this and gave answers along the way. It really made me open up and think.

There have also been times when someone has pointed out something in the Bible that makes me think. For example, I think I pointed to something Jesus is said to have done and discussed. Someone came back with a reply. What about the fig tree? There was another time when someone questioned me about Jesus and what he said about slaves.

When that happens, I sit back and I think. The fig tree thing. Well, it always bothered me. I've never had an answer for that. Ever. Again, as I've mentioned, I believe the Bible was written by men who were far from infallible. However, I do believe Jesus lived and tend to put more stock in his teachings. And, in truth, I hold with many of his teachings. But, there's that damned fig tree ... pun intended. That truly makes me sit back and say ... huh .... Always has.

Regarding slavery .... Shanna asked, if I remember correctly, why Jesus wouldn't have taken the opportunity to come out against slavery ...?

Huh.

That night, I dug out a Bible dictionary my mother gave me eons ago. I never look at it. Well, I took it out and read everything about slavery. I got to the point that I was almost, literally, sick. All those cites condoning slavery. Then, there was a lame excuse at the end of it regarding what Jesus said about it. It was metaphor, etc....

Okay. So, I sat there and pondered it. Maybe it was a metaphor. However, we don't know if it was or wasn't. And, truly, wasn't Shanna right? In that, Jesus made a pretty firm stance when it came to women. Forward thinking and amazingly so. Why not take a stance against slavery? It would be dangerous? So what? Most of what he was doing during the three years of his teaching was dangerous. So ...?

Do I have an answer? No. I don't. Does that make me uncomfortable? Yes, it does. Heck, there are even times when I wish I could be like so many religious folk, people who have faith and never question. Wow!

But, that's not who I am or who I've ever been. So, I need to live with and deal with the fact that I hold certain beliefs for the reasons I've mentioned ... but ... I don't have all the answers and I have lots of questions and that is, sometimes, a very discomforting place to be.

Those are the things that have led me to an open-minded discourse and to self-reflection.

Condescending arguments, on either side, haven't. Calling people horrid names, YAIR and that crew, hasn't. Calling people ignorant, then couching it in ... ignorant of certain things not everything ... hasn't.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

I don't have the evidence to back me. But, when I share and discuss, I do have one thing. I can be very honest and speak from personal experience. I know many don't recognize personal experience in this, at least when it comes to religion and spirituality and proof of God. However, in my mind and heart, I think ... if I'm truly open and honest about my experiences and my beliefs and how I think things through ... people might gain a greater understanding of someone who is different.

You might not believe as I do. Getting people to believe as I do never has been my point. But, you ... and I mean "you" ... might be more open to listening to someone who is spiritual. We're not all closed-minded and judgmental. We're not all anti-woman and anti-gay and anti .... You might gain a better understanding into how some of us think and why some of us believe.

Right? I mean, I hope this is how it is .... I can be truly honest and open and share what's in my mind and share my experiences. That's my choice and what I think I can offer the discussion. You can question ... and always have the ... where's the evidence argument. It's a valid argument. Then, there are the inconsistent teachings in the Bible. And, there's the argument about morals. Do you ignore your morals for those touted in the Bible? Or, do you make a stand for what you know is right? This, I think, is what leads to open-minded discussion and reflection.

The other, I think, shuts that down.

[Deale]

Shannon wrote: "Maria wrote: "Shannon - you said that your students "think it's wrong to celebrate something that's based in a lie" - referring to Thanksgiving. How do they feel about celebrating Christmas, which..."
While I do know how you feel...I taught Middle School sometime ago...I did have occasion to discuss my religious beliefs (I do not believe in hell lol) when telling creation myths. No phone calls from parents and I think my students thought and appreciated my point of view. There are times, eg. Thanksgiving, when teachers might open minds and hearts to the beliefs of others.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Scianto wrote: "If you really think about it; this question makes you chose between two thought paralyzing concepts.

Well in our western logic we seem to struggle between the duality of choosing between two diffe..."

It's not people in fear trying to soothe themselves that bother me. I love thinking, right or left brain.

It's the ones who want a state religion, whichever one they want, say Baptist for example, who then want the entire world to convert at the point of a sword, or automatic pistol or prison, and force the schools to preach and teach the Bible five days a week to praise the lord. Check out the Kansas school board thing here in the USA where this particular agenda has been playing out for the last decade through the proper channels of the election process. Educated democracy is a good thing. The point being, personal angst and questioning is fine, but the religious seem to desire autocratic dictatorship whenever they get power. They fight each other for autocracy, "we're all going to believe in speaking in tongues, no, we're not!" and it's on.

Theories are fun and I indulge too. I took philosophy for a couple of classes purely to think. Living a long time shows that 20% or so of us like the brain candy of discussion. The rest want the brain dead certainty of black and white thinking, no fighting or discussion, and 'my way or the highway'. It's Western constitutions and education that prevents our civilization from falling back into the Middle Ages. Today the rational try to convince the religious fearful to examine and think, because they want rote and predictable non-thinking comfort, which leads to disaster.

I agree it's fear WAY deep down and not so deep down for the religious. But science stands apart from fear. What people DO with science may come from fear. But science itself is designed to exclude fear.

[Travis]

I'm all about thinking, big fan of it, and encouraging it is a big part of what this thread is about.
But, a part of thinking is asking questions and religion has a reputation for not being a big fan of too much question asking.

Religion has it's place, as mythology and as a teaching tool, but as long as big groups of people will declare it a law of the land that people want to use to run the world, then it will be subject to questioning and have to be tough enough to stand up to it.

Both sides need to talk, listen and think, but religion starts the conversation at a disadvantage, as the science side ( me...hi!) views religion as just another mythology, so that makes the whole debate a bit tricky.
I've enjoyed this thread, meet some nice people , had some good conversations, learned more about Sean Bean than I ever thought I would, but liking folks on the other side and even listening to them with an open mind changes the imbalance in this debate or gains religion some magic shield from criticism.
Hopefully, we can refrain from being mean about it.
Religious freedom means you get to believe what you want. But, that's it.
Other people have to accept that's what you believe, they do not have to accept it or respect it as valid.

and I've been talking seriously for way too long and will move along and go watch some Doctor Who.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Travis wrote: "I'm all about thinking, big fan of it, and encouraging it is a big part of what this thread is about.
But, a part of thinking is asking questions and religion has a reputation for not being a big f..."

All right! Doctor Who!

[Old-Barbarossa]

Travis wrote: "...and go watch some Doctor Who..."

Ah, now there's a way to start an arguement amongst geeks...who was the best Dr?
(Pertwee or Baker for me.)