Angels & Demons
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Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion?
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May 17, 2012 11:48PM
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Lila wrote: "Cerebus wrote: " Pretty much covers it."Surely, you are not taking it seriously? Because if you were, then you'd be making a joke out of the whole discussion.
It is however a perfect example of ..."
yes, it is a perfect example of ignorance, you've revealed that you don't realise that if god is omniscient then he knew everything that adam and eve, and all their descendants were going to do before he even created the world. God created them, knowing they would disappoint him, while also creating them without the knowledge that what they would eventually do was wrong - Adam and Eve didn't know that disobeying god was wrong until they ate the fruit that revealed to them that it was wrong. In fact he created them, not just knowing that they would disappoint him, but with the intention that they would disappoint him because he can't possibly make a mistake, being omnipotent, so he could punish them... like a malicious kid with an ant farm and a magnifying glass.
But he created them anyway, deliberately starting this chain of events, meaning he must have deliberately created them with the intent that they would fall from grace, so he could punish them, and all their descendants. Theres no way to argue that this omniscient being didn't know what was going to happen, and that this omniscient being didn't make them that way deliberately, otherwise, you're suggesting that god made a mistake, and the other thing that christians like to claim is gods infallibility, thus it all happened the way he intended it to. Just within the first book of the bible, the character of god is revealed to be hateful and malicious. That little cartoon captures the essence of the bible pretty much perfectly.
Hazel wrote: "Lila wrote: "Cerebus wrote: " Pretty much covers it."Surely, you are not taking it seriously? Because if you were, then you'd be making a joke out of the whole discussion.
It is however a perfec..."
It's amazing, isn't it, how the meaning of the stories, so perfectly clear in the simple reading of it (what you already stated) has mountains of Christian materials reframing to suit whatever political control any charismatic speaker twists it into meaning for the purpose of personal power and money, and most people believe the reframer and not their own eyes...how many times do believers say, because they have to, "I don't understand this scripture, can you explain it to me pastor?" they get an imaginary guesswork explanation and they move along happy with the 'authoritive' version just given them, like sheep with sunflower seed amygdalas the only functioning part working?
Lila wrote: "Surely, you are not taking it seriously? Because if you were, then you'd be making a joke out of the whole discussion."Ever heard of the phrase "it's funny because it's true"?
One of the disturbing things about religion is that people get so angry when humour is directed at it, but pretty much everything else we laugh at some time or other. Death, taxes, politics, poverty, disaster, crime etc. Humour is an important part of keeping life in perspective.
Lila wrote: "It is however a perfect example of ignorance."
Agreed.
The startling ignorance is that most people who profess to believe do not even seem to understand what they believe, yet the obvious logical flaws have been debated by the Church since the 3rd century CE and the losers of such debates often purged as heretics lest they spread their annoying attentiveness to others.
If you truly think that the cartoon is ignorant of the message of the Bible (and we are talking about the Bible specifically here) then please demonstrate what is wrong with the interpretation, citing examples.
(To be honest it isn't to hard to come up with some objections as the Bible does contradict itself. For example Genesis 3:8 demonstrates that God is not omniscient, or is lying, when he can't find Adam or Eve because they are hiding. It's not until Psalm 139 that its claimed he is everywhere)
Xdyj wrote: "AFAIK there are plenty of Marxist theorists or Communists who are supporters of liberal values and truly believe in democracy, however after every "communist revolution" these people would almost always be purged immediately."Just as there are plenty of Muslims and Christians that truly believe in the good messages of their religion and are usually just as unsuccessful in stopping the nasty parts during a theistic revolution.
Cerebus wrote: "At its heart it has a valid point, that we are told god is omniscient, so created adam and eve knowing that they would eat the apple, yet punished them for doing what he effectively created them to do."Not only punishing them for it, but punishing them despite the fact that only by eating the fruit did they get the knowledge that being disobedient is wrong! Effectively god tried as adults a couple who were incapable of taking responsibility.
A world without Religion. Imagine. A world run by Science. That would be a Utopia. Though we would still find ways to disagree and create war, I don't think the world would be without love and Passion.
Jen wrote: "I don't think the world would be without love and Passion. ."Quite true. However if people were forced to justify their actions without recourse to an unquestionable supernatural reason, wars and disagreements would be harder to propagate.
Hazel wrote: "Lila wrote: "Cerebus wrote: " Pretty much covers it."
Surely, you are not taking it seriously? Because if you were, then you'd be making a joke out of the whole discussion.
It is however a perfec..."
Really, Hazel. I must say for a person who doesn't believe that God exists, you seem to have a very vast knowledge about Him. Isn't it a waste of time? Wouldn't it be better spent studying more science?
And that silly little story you just told, where exactly did you read it? Which Bible translation? Or better yet, since you speak with so much authority on the subject, you must have read it in the original Hebrew and Aramaic, right? Not to mention you also verified your vast knowledge of God who doesn't exist against Koran and other ancient spiritual writings.
Because otherwise, you really wouldn't know what you were talking about and that would be ignorance, no?
Surely, you are not taking it seriously? Because if you were, then you'd be making a joke out of the whole discussion.
It is however a perfec..."
Really, Hazel. I must say for a person who doesn't believe that God exists, you seem to have a very vast knowledge about Him. Isn't it a waste of time? Wouldn't it be better spent studying more science?
And that silly little story you just told, where exactly did you read it? Which Bible translation? Or better yet, since you speak with so much authority on the subject, you must have read it in the original Hebrew and Aramaic, right? Not to mention you also verified your vast knowledge of God who doesn't exist against Koran and other ancient spiritual writings.
Because otherwise, you really wouldn't know what you were talking about and that would be ignorance, no?
April the Cheshire Meow wrote: "how many times do believers say, because they have to, "I don't understand this scripture, can you explain it to me pastor?" they get an imaginary guesswork explanation and they move along happy with the 'authoritive' version just given them, like sheep with sunflower seed amygdalas the only functioning part working? "
Yes, please enlighten me. How many times exactly have you witnessed such a thing?
Oh, and I'm sure that calling believers sheep with sunflower seeds for brains is really not an insult, it's a virtue, right? Just like that ignorance thing.
Yes, please enlighten me. How many times exactly have you witnessed such a thing?
Oh, and I'm sure that calling believers sheep with sunflower seeds for brains is really not an insult, it's a virtue, right? Just like that ignorance thing.
Lila wrote: "Isn't it a waste of time?"It's a hobby maybe? I can't really speak for Hazel though...
Some collect stamps...not too worthwhile by some accounts but entertaining for the philatelist.
Are you basically saying, Lila, that only the religious can comment on god?
An interest in Hx necessitates an interest in religion, an interest in medieval/early modern Hx moreso...how else to understand the angry folk of 16/17th cent Europe and their joyous genocide over scriptural interpretations.
Lila wrote: "Oh, and I'm sure that calling believers sheep with sunflower seeds for brains is really not an insult, it's a virtue, right..."Don't know about the sunflower thing but isn't the whole sheep/shepherd thing perfectly in line with christian teaching?
Gary wrote: "Jen wrote: "I don't think the world would be without love and Passion. ."
Quite true. However if people were forced to justify their actions without recourse to an unquestionable supernatural rea..."
Science has been used and is being used for nefarious and devastating purposes many times over. Not with good intent but in the hands of wrong people, mind you. I've heard that argument and it's fallible. Narcotics industry relies on science to come up with better and strong drugs every day. They kill millions of millions of people and ruin millions of families. How about the gun industry that began with the invention of gun powder in China. Why are guns produced? For what purpose? What's the intent behind it?
If you refuse to acknowledge that there's is an evil side to science and the world would suffer no more or less if left in the Science's hands only, then not only is it you who is ignorant of the facts but also displays amazing lack of imagination.
And by the way, I don't care about the stupid cartoon. It does nothing for or to me. I will always believe. All it does is just show me that the real audience it's written for, the audience who indeed enjoys it is, not only ignorant but arrogant as well, claiming to know all there is to know without bothering to even hide the fact they know nothing of the sort nor do they care to.
Quite true. However if people were forced to justify their actions without recourse to an unquestionable supernatural rea..."
Science has been used and is being used for nefarious and devastating purposes many times over. Not with good intent but in the hands of wrong people, mind you. I've heard that argument and it's fallible. Narcotics industry relies on science to come up with better and strong drugs every day. They kill millions of millions of people and ruin millions of families. How about the gun industry that began with the invention of gun powder in China. Why are guns produced? For what purpose? What's the intent behind it?
If you refuse to acknowledge that there's is an evil side to science and the world would suffer no more or less if left in the Science's hands only, then not only is it you who is ignorant of the facts but also displays amazing lack of imagination.
And by the way, I don't care about the stupid cartoon. It does nothing for or to me. I will always believe. All it does is just show me that the real audience it's written for, the audience who indeed enjoys it is, not only ignorant but arrogant as well, claiming to know all there is to know without bothering to even hide the fact they know nothing of the sort nor do they care to.
Science does not have an evil side, because science doesn't make any claims of a moral standpoint. Its a tool, nothing more, it doesn't tell us how to be good. Things produced using the tool of science are sometimes used for evil acts, usually, I hasten to add, with religious folk pulling the strings and giving the orders.I love your response in the second paragraph aboutthe cartoon, it sounds like a teenage strop "well, I don't like it, so its wrong! Its stupid!". Have you even taken the time to consider the reason for it? I suspect not.
Lila wrote: "Hazel wrote: "Lila wrote: "Cerebus wrote: " Pretty much covers it."Surely, you are not taking it seriously? Because if you were, then you'd be making a joke out of the whole discussion.
It is ho..."
Its because I learned about "Him" that I came to the conclusion that he doesn't exist, and that if he did, he'd be an evil, malignant being I'd want nothing to do with. Reading the bible really is the best way to lose your faith.
And really, your replies do seem to have a touch of petulance to them. I really hope that if you wish to continue this discussion, we can lose the childish tone?
Old-Barbarossa wrote: "Lila wrote: "Isn't it a waste of time?"
It's a hobby maybe? I can't really speak for Hazel though...
Some collect stamps...not too worthwhile by some accounts but entertaining for the philatelist...."
Of course you can. Comment, express your opinion, etc. Only don't throw that big 'ignorance' at religious people without being prepared to be called on it when you display such blatant lack of knowledge. That's hypocrisy. Or can you, 'non-religious folks' do no wrong?
It's a hobby maybe? I can't really speak for Hazel though...
Some collect stamps...not too worthwhile by some accounts but entertaining for the philatelist...."
Of course you can. Comment, express your opinion, etc. Only don't throw that big 'ignorance' at religious people without being prepared to be called on it when you display such blatant lack of knowledge. That's hypocrisy. Or can you, 'non-religious folks' do no wrong?
OK, Lila, enlighten me, tell me why you think I'm wrong. I'm genuinely interested. I'm even willing to have my mind changed.
Old-Barbarossa wrote: "Lila wrote: "Isn't it a waste of time?"
It's a hobby maybe? I can't really speak for Hazel though...
Some collect stamps...not too worthwhile by some accounts but entertaining for the philatelist...."
The medieval genocide over religion was executed by cowards who needed to invoke God's name in order to revel in bloodspilling. Now, how would you explain the dictators if communist regimes murdering millions if people more than all the inquisitionns and all the crusades, and witch hunts couldn't accomplish in those people's wildest dreams?
It's a hobby maybe? I can't really speak for Hazel though...
Some collect stamps...not too worthwhile by some accounts but entertaining for the philatelist...."
The medieval genocide over religion was executed by cowards who needed to invoke God's name in order to revel in bloodspilling. Now, how would you explain the dictators if communist regimes murdering millions if people more than all the inquisitionns and all the crusades, and witch hunts couldn't accomplish in those people's wildest dreams?
You're cute. I love the passive-aggressive attitude. Yes, let ignore the problem of answering the actual question of your source of authority on scriptures that allows you to give lectures on something you don't believe in. instead, let's use linguistic tools to to call a Christian a derogatory name? It certainly serves the purpose of....hhmmm....what? Nothing, no purpose whatsoever.
Lila wrote: "You're cute. I love the passive-aggressive attitude. Yes, let ignore the problem of answering the actual question of your source of authority on scriptures that allows you to give lectures on somet..."I have assumed this is aimed at me after mentioning the sheep/shepherd thing, might be wrong though.
I'm unsure what you're getting at...are those who are non-religious not allowed to comment on religious texts even if they are familiar with them?
I have read several books and am familiar with them, this doesn't mean I agree with them or take them as factual...I will however discuss the merits of the texts.
I don't know why you think that reading texts in their original is the only way to be authorative in criticism, I very much doubt many christians can read Greek or Latin or whatever...the vast majority will be reading the same translations that unbelievers read...does that make their belief less true? I doubt it.
Lila wrote: " Only don't throw that big 'ignorance' at religious people without being prepared to be called on it when you display such blatant lack of knowledge..."Never mentioned the ignornace thing myself yet you bring it up in reply to me...I therefore assume that your reply is more general.
As to "blatant lack of knowledge", if directed at myself please give an example and I shall expand upon my point and give refs too if you wish.
For the record I do have a "blatant lack of knowledge" in many areas...so could you be more specific?
Lila wrote: "The medieval genocide over religion was executed by cowards who needed to invoke God's name in order to revel in bloodspilling. Now, how would you explain the dictators if communist regimes murdering millions if people more than all the inquisitionns and all the crusades, and witch hunts couldn't accomplish in those people's wildest dreams?"Not really sure what you're getting at here...so correct me if I'm wrong.
I think any ideology that requires unquestioning obedience, whether religious or political is morally bankrupt and allows evil things to be done with easy justification. As to the levels of carnage, I'm sure if there was a similar level of mechanisation in the 12th cent then there would have been a bigger body count then.
As to the "cowards who needed to invoke God's name in order to revel in bloodspilling"...that seems to be a standard part of the pro-religious arguement that things justified by religion and bad are not supposed to be discussed as relevant, but things justified by religion and good are fine...can't really have it both ways, can you?
Old-Barbarossa wrote: "Lila wrote: "You're cute. I love the passive-aggressive attitude. Yes, let ignore the problem of answering the actual question of your source of authority on scriptures that allows you to give lect..."
No, it wasn't a comment to anything you wrote. You ask valid questions. Anyone can comment on anything they want. Expertise is indeed not needed to make innocent observations. But the minute a comment becomes a derision and/or a caricature of an issue, then I would expect an owner of this comment to know all there is to know about the subject. If you want to be taken seriously, do you choose a path of a knowledgeable and well-informed person or an ignorant one, who makes his/her opinion based mostly on hearsay?
No, it wasn't a comment to anything you wrote. You ask valid questions. Anyone can comment on anything they want. Expertise is indeed not needed to make innocent observations. But the minute a comment becomes a derision and/or a caricature of an issue, then I would expect an owner of this comment to know all there is to know about the subject. If you want to be taken seriously, do you choose a path of a knowledgeable and well-informed person or an ignorant one, who makes his/her opinion based mostly on hearsay?
Lila wrote: "...then I would expect an owner of this comment to know all there is to know about the subject...""all there is to know about the subject"...really? All?
Then we can pretty much ignore everything anyone ever wrote on anything...apart from some really pure maths texts.
Just trolling now...ignore me please.
Lila wrote: "Really, Hazel. I must say for a person who doesn't believe that God exists, you seem to have a very vast knowledge about Him. Isn't it a waste of time? Wouldn't it be better spent studying more science?"You are probably right, yet in my own case my knowledge about the Christian God (or gods to be precise) comes from the fact I used to be Christian, and by learning more I realised that I wasn't.
I have learned a lot of science, however my knowledge of theology I still rate as important, mainly because the world is filled with people who still believe it and use superstition and dogma to make decisions instead of reason and compassion.
Take for example the Catholic focus on abstinence only birth control (which leads to higher teen pregnancies and STDs wherever it is practiced), the evangelists war to be allowed the religious rights to deny other people their human rights, the Creationist war on evidence based science and the Christian scientists and Jehovah's Witnesses whose refusal to use vaccines is accelerating the evolution of antibiotic resistant germs of diseases that were almost eliminated.
Lila wrote: "And that silly little story you just told, where exactly did you read it? Which Bible translation? Or better yet, since you speak with so much authority on the subject, you must have read it in the original Hebrew and Aramaic, right? Not to mention you also verified your vast knowledge of God who doesn't exist against Koran and other ancient spiritual writings. "
Are you aware that in recent polls it has been discovered that on average more atheists have actually read the Bible than Christians, and more atheists have a better general knowledge of religion than the average theist?
Lila wrote: "Because otherwise, you really wouldn't know what you were talking about and that would be ignorance, no?"
If I (or Hazel) don't know what we are talking about in regard to the Bible, then please instead of stating 'you don't know what you are talking about' please show me, via biblical reference, where we are mistaken or misrepresenting.
Is God omniscient?
Did God create Adam and Eve knowing they would sin? (Because he is all knowing)
Did God punish Adam and Eve, and all their unborn descendants, for the crime as related in Genesis of eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge and knowing good and evil?
Why did God create them without knowledge of good and evil and then punish them for disobedience which he says is evil? How did god expect them to know.
Did Jesus (whether the son of god, or the word made flesh) die on the cross to redeem mankind for his sins?
Please prove my ignorance.
Lila wrote: "Yes, please enlighten me. How many times exactly have you witnessed such a thing?"Again I know you asked Hazel, but if you don't mind I will also respond.
Many, many times.
I have also been told by a devoted Christian female friend how she had fallen in love with an evangelist with an extensive knowledge of the Bible. The evangelist slept with her a couple of times and then explained citing biblical reference and divine revelation that God had told him who he was going to marry and it turned out it wasn't her so he was ending it.
And she was entirely happy about the situation because "her body wasn't hers, it was gods"
Personally I was horrified that a man had used his biblical knowledge to use and then discard my friend, and justified it to a good loyal woman using religion.
Gary wrote: "And she was entirely happy about the situation because "her body wasn't hers, it was gods"Personally I was horrified that a man had used his biblical knowledge to use and then discard my friend, and justified it to a good loyal woman using religion..."
I now await this or similar:
"Now surely that's just people being nasty...can you really blame religion for that...
I mean you can't blame religion for the bad done in it's name...you can't blame god for folk...blah, blah, etc etc"
Lila wrote: "Narcotics industry relies on science to come up with better and strong drugs every day. They kill millions of millions of people and ruin millions of families."While the biotech industries have more than doubled human lifespans in the modern world with medicines and treatments. With increasingly sophisticated farming methods and engineering we can now feed a population that could never be supported in ancient times. Science has saved billions from disease and famine.
Lila wrote: "How about the gun industry that began with the invention of gun powder in China. Why are guns produced? For what purpose? What's the intent behind it?
I don't know but perhaps ask the heavily Christian NRA in the US. It tends to be the left wing progressives that support gun control while the usually more religious right wing staunchly defends the right to bear arms.
Weapons have existed for thousands of years. Science doesn't tell people to use them, however the Bible and the Qu'ran do. The bible contains many references to the use of swords, swords being (unlike axes or bows) weapons solely designed for the killing of other humans.
Lila wrote: "If you refuse to acknowledge that there's is an evil side to science and the world would suffer no more or less if left in the Science's hands only
You seem to be under the impression that without religion science would be "in charge". Science is not a leader, it is a servant. However, science can give us knowledge on how to harm or how to heal, its up to us how we apply it.
Science gives us tools that can be used for good or for evil at our choice. There is nothing good that I can think of that religion gives us that cannot be sourced elsewhere.
Lila wrote: "then not only is it you who is ignorant of the facts but also displays amazing lack of imagination."
Imagining that the universe was created by a bloke who thinks like us and has the same emotions as us is a supreme failure of the imagination.
For a start, why would he be "he". Who could a single lone god impregnate?
Lila wrote: "I will always believe."
Lila wrote: "not only ignorant but arrogant as well, claiming to know all there is to know without bothering to even hide the fact they know nothing of the sort nor do they care to. "
I am amazed at the cognitive dissonance here. You believe you already know the truth and have stated you will never change your mind. I have stated openly that I don't know all the truths, though I hope to learn more throughout my life. I also have changed my mind in the past and suspect I may do so again in the future.
Ignorance and arrogance? Your the one claiming they know everything already.
God created Adam and Even and the first thing He did was give them free will. They were free to choose. God knew that they will be tempted by by Satan to eat the apple. God knew what the consequence oof giving in to Satan would be for Adam and Eve but ultimately it was up to them to either eat it or not. They were not punished they were not sentenced to eternal damnation. They were merely taught the very first important lesson of life: whatever we do, it will always have consequences, bad or good. Action -reaction. This is what I believe. I always have a choice. My God does not lead my hand to do evil, to kill it to cause suffering.
Lila wrote: "God created Adam and Even and the first thing He did was give them free will. They were free to choose. God knew that they will be tempted by by Satan to eat the apple. God knew what the consequenc..."Lila, now correct me if I missed something here, but you were fairly dismissive over others summary of biblical tales and implied that some refs were needed.
Do you have biblical refs to back up what you are saying in your post?
Correct me if I'm wrong but it's a serpent in the garden and it isn't refered to as Satan anywhere...as I said correct me if I'm wrong.
Sure, it may have come to mean Satan through tradition, but I don't think the serpent is equated with the 1st of the fallen in the text.
Lila, how can god have given them free will if he withheld the knowledge of good and evil from them? How do they know that a decision will have bad consequences when for all intents and purposes they simply cannot conceive of good and bad? They didn't gain that ability to make a judgement call until they had eaten the fruit. Its like punishing a baby for throwing their food across the room, they simply don't understand that it is naughty.Further, how can anyone have free will if it is given by an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent being? God created the divine plan, and thus we cannot deviate from it, and thus our will is not free, it is all gods will.
The snake (satan if you want, though its never suggested in Genesis that the snake is satan) was surely created by God, by a god that knew what the snake was, and what it would do, so if he didn't want it to happen, all he had to do was not put the snake in the garden. Even if we assume that the snake is satan, then its a fallen angel, and angels were created by god, and denied free will (hence the war in heaven, one of the things lucifer wanted was the same free will god had supposedly granted man), so if satan has no free will of his own, his actions are what god wants them to be. If I am wrong, please explain why I am wrong.
Wow. A thread with 4000 posts. Amazing. For those saying that without Religion there would be no morals please explain the following to me: the countries with the lowest per capita murder rates in the world are, amongst others, Japan, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Holland, and China (excluding the people China executes. But America also does that, so...). Norway was also found to be the safest place in the world for women and children. Until some right wing nutcase went mad with guns.The countries with the highest murder rates are 1. Columbia 2. South Africa ... I forget the order of the rest but America is in the top ten.
Those with the lowest are also, lo and behold, the countries where the vast majority of people are atheist or agnostic. In America on the other hand more than 80% say they are Christian, and more than 60% attend church. The figures are almost the same in South Africa, and I don't know about Columbia but I'm guessing it's not exactly overun by atheists.
Now can someone out there please look me in the eye and tell me with a straight face that we need religion to make us kinder, more compassionate people?
The sad truth, from what can be gathered from books like the Left Behind series, is that extreme retributive violence courses through the Christian Right in America like an electric current.
They all seem to actually WANT Armageddon. They want us to die terrible painful deaths because we don't believe in their god. How else does one explain the orgy of violence in those awful Left Behind books?And then in the same breath they will tell us that their god loves us! Come on. How can we take that seriously? There is not a shred of evidence of love in those books. There's precious little in the old testament too.
But they are the ones who will stand up and say we are disrespecting their faith! I don't see any books written by Hindus where Christians are the victims of a terrible ferocious vengeance by the god Ganesh.
I heard the funniest idea the other day, when the next rapture date is announced, we should all make sure we're ready, prepare ourselves, ensure that we've done all we need to do, and when the time comes, we all release our helium filled sex dolls at the same time :P
Ok, I apologize for not being absolutely clear. Serpent was used as a totool by Satan to deceive the.first couple. It has eventually become identified as Satan. Although the devil is not really a person but a force of evil. I know I'm at this point probably exposing myself to more ridicule but as a Christian, I cannot at the same time acknowledge the existence if God and deny the existence of Satan.
Lila wrote: "Ok, I apologize for not being absolutely clear. Serpent was used as a totool by Satan to deceive the.first couple. It has eventually become identified as Satan. Although the devil is not really a ..."The thing that always bugged me about the devil is that there are devil worshipers out there.
Did they not read the bible? He lost! You are worshiping the loser! It's the theological version of being a Cubs fan.
Made no sense to me.
Lila wrote: "Ok, I apologize for not being absolutely clear. Serpent was used as a totool by Satan to deceive the.first couple. It has eventually become identified as Satan. Although the devil is not really a ..."ok, so god couldn't prevent the serpent/satan from doing what it did?
Hazel wrote: "Lila wrote: "Ok, I apologize for not being absolutely clear. Serpent was used as a totool by Satan to deceive the.first couple. It has eventually become identified as Satan. Although the devil is ..."Apparently the idea is that all the stuff in the bible is part of 'god's plan'.
Which seems to completely mess up the idea of free will, yet we keep hearing that we are responsible for our choices and that'll decide if you go to heaven or hell.
I just wish the religious folk would pick a version and stick with it.
The book you want to live your life by should not be as convoluted as the X-men comics.
Lila wrote: "Ok, I apologize for not being absolutely clear. Serpent was used as a totool by Satan to deceive the.first couple. It has eventually become identified as Satan. Although the devil is not really a ..."No biblical evidence of this...you are basing your belief on tradition and not the bible.
Now the book of Job...that's different...in it Satan is an entity not "a force of evil" as you put it and is acting entirely on the orders of god...who isn't being very nice to Job.
Lila………Atheists are very intolerant. They feed off Christian beliefs. They stalk forums waiting for a Christian response to a post and ‘science or religion’ is an ideal topic for then, they know there will be a number of replies in favour of religion; and then they strike. They are obsessed with something that they believe does not exist, but really they want to be convinced otherwise. Many make a good living writing books on the subject while others study the bible.
Atheists quite often use the Philosophical approach to a debate because it allows them to ask far more questions than they would ever answer.
It is not he who reviles or strikes you who insults you, but your opinion that these things are insulting.
Fine. What is it that you'd like me to say, that would make you happy? Do you want to hear me say that yeah, you right, this whole religion crap if all BS, how could I have been so stupid not to see it? Would that make you sigh with contentment and relax with a self-satisfied grin on your faces? You know that won't happen. I just didn't know that this was the real purpose for this 'discussion'.
And once again, why do you try so hard and go to such lengths to disprove to me Someone that doesn't exist in the first place? Just who exactly are you trying to convince here and of what?
And once again, why do you try so hard and go to such lengths to disprove to me Someone that doesn't exist in the first place? Just who exactly are you trying to convince here and of what?
Lila wrote: "Fine. What is it that you'd like me to say, that would make you happy? Do you want to hear me say that yeah, you right, this whole religion crap if all BS, how could I have been so stupid not to se..."Lila, I just find the discussions interesting.
My comments were directed at you and related to the bible due to you stating in a previous post that the bible is the core of christianity and all else is irrelevant, or words to that effect, you were also fairly dismissive of any christians that thought otherwise and noted that they couldn't be true christians.
Then you stated that to comment on something you should know "all" about it.
Having noted these things I merely point out that there is no biblical mention of serpent being Satan even though you express this belief.
I realise you may never change your view on religion but I hope this inconsistency helps you look at the basis of your faith...maybe make it stronger...maybe a wee bit less so.
cs wrote: "They feed off Christian beliefs..."I eat unicorns with a side of basilisk...hmmm, claw lickin' good...
cs wrote: "Atheists are very intolerant..."The christians in Ulster are super tolerant of each other by comparison...very few atheists in Belfast.
(Broad sweeping generalisation...it's not all about religion...and things have quietened down a fair bit over the past 20 years or so...)
cs wrote: "Lila………
Atheists are very intolerant. They feed off Christian beliefs. They stalk forums waiting for a Christian response to a post and ‘science or religion’ is an ideal topic for then, they know..."
You know what, cs? I wanted to find out on my own what people such as atheist have to say to form my opinion by directly engaging in a fair, open-minded discussion. But in the end, this particular group if people proved you right. I have to agree with you. Now, unlike a narrow-minded individual who claims that we, Christians want to see all if you, non-believers dead, I can't say that all atheists are intolerant because I have simply not met all atheists.
But thank you, cs.
Atheists are very intolerant. They feed off Christian beliefs. They stalk forums waiting for a Christian response to a post and ‘science or religion’ is an ideal topic for then, they know..."
You know what, cs? I wanted to find out on my own what people such as atheist have to say to form my opinion by directly engaging in a fair, open-minded discussion. But in the end, this particular group if people proved you right. I have to agree with you. Now, unlike a narrow-minded individual who claims that we, Christians want to see all if you, non-believers dead, I can't say that all atheists are intolerant because I have simply not met all atheists.
But thank you, cs.
no, we don't want you to decide its all crap, we don't want you to stop believing if you don't want, you're free to believe what you want, as is your right, but please, don't just accept what authority figures say, and please don't just accept what we say, and certainly don't accept anything that cs says, as he's been proved, with evidence to be a liar, but make your own mind up through a critical evaluation of the text itself, by yourself, not with a priest or pastor, or parent telling you what to think.Why do I go to such great lengths? Because I honestly think that if we hold beliefs we should ensure that we hold as many true and as few false beliefs as we feasibly can, which means we have to question beliefs, we have to investigate their origins, and we have to consider them all critically, and its anathema to me that people will simply accept something as important to them as god actually existing on faith. I apply the same idea to all information, from gossip to claims of supernatural beings, if theres no proof of what someones saying, then theres no reason to assume its real or true.
And part of the point of looking at the morals and ethics within the bible, such as how god treats adma and eve, or the laws he dictates in leviticus, is to understand that morals do not come from religion and that the morals we hold are better than those attributed to god. I am more moral than the god depicted in the bible, in the koran, in the torah, because I don't think slavery is ok, and I don't think that girls who've been raped should be forced to marry their rapist, and I don't think that being good because you have been promised a reward is in any way a moral outlook at all, you should be good because you want to be good, not because you're scared of hell, or want to get a perceived reward at the end, but because you don't want to be a dick to other people. But there you go, thats just me, the intolerant atheist, who believes that everyone, no matter who they are should have the same rights as everyone else.
Hazel wrote: "I heard the funniest idea the other day, when the next rapture date is announced, we should all make sure we're ready, prepare ourselves, ensure that we've done all we need to do, and when the time..."Hazel, that is a great idea. If anyone hears the date, please post it.
Hazel wrote: "...you should be good because you want to be good, not because you're scared of hell, or want to get a perceived reward at the end, but because you don't want to be a dick to other people..."That's just crazy talk Hazel!
Here's what I was taught growing up:In the time of Job, Satan challenged God's right to rule and said that his "creation" would never worship him if they were made to suffer, they would curse God. God allowed Satan to do things to Job and his family to prove Satan wrong, which Job did. Satan has been proven wrong at other times in history when those being persecuted didn't renounce their faith. Satan has also been proved correct on many occasions when people say, how could we worship a God who lets so much suffering go on.
Lila, just do like Old Barby said, chill out, don't act so put-upon, and use this forum to discuss all the differences we all seem to have. For the most part, except for a few exceptions (hi, cs) no one is being rude. No one here dislikes anyone else, we don't even know each other. It's just sharing ideas and opinions.
Maria, for that last paragraph, I could hug you :)
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