Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion? Showing 2,751-2,800 of 12,463

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Hazel wrote: "I think Cara's statement needs some modification, without religion, and other such indoctrinating ideologies, there would be no-one claiming moral righteousness over starting wars or committing atr..."

"Personally, I suspect that its become a bit of a witch hunt, and that about 10 years down the line we'll find some of the priests and clerics being convicted now will be exonerated."

Considering how many of the Christian folk see the mother of Jesus in spots on windows, I sadly, suspect you are right.

[Ashley]

Cara wrote: "This one is easy. A world without religion would be a world without war, or at least a lot fewer of them. Superstitions make people do stupid things."
You may be right that superstitions make people do stupid things but what kind of world would it be if you have no end to look forward to? This is not an easy question at all. Yes science has helped to the world and has helped find cures for certain things. But with out the prospet of there being a higher being you have to answer to what would stop you from doing horrible things? Not saying it doesn't happen but it would happen a lot more with out that "fear" or what ever you want to call it in the back of your head. I say a world with out either would be awful but if I had to chose I chose my faith everyday hand's down!

[[deleted user]]

Ashley .... I believe in God. There are even times when I wonder what God would have me do in a certain situation. However, I don't believe my faith is what stops me from doing horrible things, and I don't believe for the purpose of the fear of being held to account. Adherence to a religion or spiritual beliefs is not necessary for one to be moral. In fact, there are hundreds, thousands, millions of religious people who have committed horrible deeds ... some in the name of religion and many not giving a moment of thought to what might happen when they die.

[Travis]

So, we only do good things or stop ourselves from doing bad because dad is watching?
the man in the sky is the spiritual equivilent of those security cameras they have all over London.

When you are a kid you have someone watching over you, when you grow up, it's time to move out of mom and dad's house, make your own choices and act like an adult.

I don't think the world will suddenly become a Disney cartoon if religion were to go away, people will still be stupid and greedy, but maybe all those people who have been spending so much time with the man in the sky would find something productive to do with their newfound free time and extra cash.

and with all those empty churches, maybe we could take care of the homeless problem.

[Maria]

Cara wrote: "This one is easy. A world without religion would be a world without war, or at least a lot fewer of them. Superstitions make people do stupid things."

this is all wrong......in a world without religion there would be more wars and more hate becouse people wouldnt have anyone to tell them its wrong...people would just do wat they want instead of thinking about the people they would hurt...

[Travis]

Oh no, not the 'everybody would do whatever bad things they wanted without religion' argument.

Cause you know, as an atheist, I spend my days raping, pillaging, kicking puppies, smoking crack and not signaling before making a turn.
Much like that famous serial killer Richard Dawkins...

if religion is all that's keeping you in check, then I'm even more afraid of religious folk than I was before, as they could snap any minute.
and if religion is keeping you folk on your best behavior and the world is this messed up, then...yikes..!

[Old-Barbarossa]

Maria wrote: "this is all wrong......in a world without religion there would be more wars and more hate becouse people wouldnt have anyone to tell them its wrong...people would just do wat they want instead of thinking about the people they would hurt..."

May I recommend The Origins Of Virtue.

By your arguement the only thing keeping YOU from being fairly nasty to your fellow human is fear of angry god...why not just be a good person because it's the thing to do.
See all the posts above, google "the golden rule".

[cerebus]

note: this is a repost, I accidentally deleted the comment.

Maria wrote: "this is all wrong......in a world without religion there would be more wars and more hate becouse people wouldnt have anyone to tell them its wrong...people would just do wat they want instead of thinking about the people they would hurt... "
What you, and others who make this point, are saying is you would love to be able to hate and start wars and do other horrendous things, but you stop yourself because you a) want a reward and b) are afraid of punishment. So you are an immoral person who pretends to be moral for personal gain and fear.
I refrain from these things because I know they are wrong, and because I do not want to be the cause of pain and suffering in others.
And you say religion is the source of morals??

[Ambar]

Of-course religion and science both are equally important but as question is asked i would like to go with science reasons are(with assumptions and exceptions)-

~Religion as in wider sense people like to connect with god,but i believe its more about the manner u live and spend life.Religion created trouble in recent times.Y can't there be just one universal religion(to be specific manner to live) and we all blv in single almighty power.

~Science is much more important as it directly effects us as it betters the condition of living and understanding of universe in true manner.

~Science if alone exists it will be synonym for religion.At-least in a place without religion there will be less wars and terrorism acts.

~As far as spiritualism is considered we don't need religion for that,connecting with inner self is more than ok.

Well may be i am wrong but may be partially correct too.

[Hazel]

on why we can't have one universal religion, assuming that it had always been the case, not that a single religion was enforced, doing away with all current ones (that could only be achieved through war): people would disagree on interpretation, on moral issues, and on what they want, so schisms would occur, holy wars would occur, and rewrites would occur, and thus from one, you end up with hundreds. There are currently hundreds of sects and cults of christianity, none of which agree with each other, or as Emo Phillips put it:

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!"
He said, "Nobody loves me."
I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes."
I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"
He said, "A Christian."
I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?"
He said, "Protestant."
I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"
He said, "Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."
I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

[Ambar]

I liked the story :)

[Hazel]

That was voted 44th funniest joke in "the 75 funniest jokes of all time" poll in GQ magazine in 1999. Emo Phillips cracks me up.

[Catherine]

There couldn't be a society without either. There has always been both. Trying to have a society without science and religion is like having PB & J without the PB & J.

[Hazel]

society would do just fine without religion. You need society to have religion not religion to have society.

[Ambar]

Ok,thanks for info and totally support ur views

[Ambar]

Read your about me,its mindblowing and ur about me itself gives answer to the Question we are commenting on-

"Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics. You are all stardust. You couldn’t be here if stars hadn’t exploded. Because the elements, the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, all the things that matter for evolution weren’t created at the beginning of time. They were created in the nuclear furnaces of stars. And the only way they could get into your body is if the stars were kind enough to explode. So forget Jesus. The stars died so you could be here today

[Hazel]

Thats Lawrence Kraus, there are some lectures of his on youtube.

Neil DeGrasse Tyson also puts this in a wonderful way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnQMDg...

[Ashley]

Shannon wrote: "Ashley .... I believe in God. There are even times when I wonder what God would have me do in a certain situation. However, I don't believe my faith is what stops me from doing horrible things, ..."

I agree that god doesn't make me not do bad things. And people do do stupid things in the name of God but I still feel that the world would be worse off it we didn't have some kind of religion in the world.

[[deleted user]]

Ashley wrote: "Shannon wrote: "Ashley .... I believe in God. There are even times when I wonder what God would have me do in a certain situation. However, I don't believe my faith is what stops me from doing h..."

I definitely believe we'd be worse off if ... we weren't allowed a choice in the matter. While the question is ... would you rather live in a world without science or religion ... personally, I'm glad (I was about to say that I live in a world in which ... but stopped myself) I live in a country in which I benefit from science and can choose to be a believer or not. Not everyone, especially every woman, has that right. I would absolutely hate to live in a place where I was told I had to believe and act out my beliefs in a certain way. I would also fight the idea, presented by some, that we should eradicate religion and/or spirituality entirely.

If anything, our thoughts and our beliefs should be our own. People talk about the fact that health care should be a right. Well .... I definitely believe our ability to think our own thoughts and hold our own beliefs (or not) is a right ... and not one I'm willing to give up. That sort of world would be worse and, for me, insufferable.

[Hazel]

completely agree Shannon, people should all have the right to be the master of their own beliefs and thoughts. Which provides me with some cognitive dissonance, as that would include those people who believe they should kill for, and die for, their beliefs, and that everyone else should think the same way they do.

[[deleted user]]

I feel the same way, Hazel, regarding cognitive dissonance. My mind went there as I typed the post. I also thought about all of the "isms" ... racism, sexism, etc.... However, much as I can't stomach the thoughts and beliefs of some people, in my mind, they should have the right to make the choice and think and believe as they will. When they take those thoughts and beliefs and turn them into actions that run afoul of societies mores and laws, they, hopefully, face consequences.

It's a hard concept to deal with, a difficult belief. On the one hand, life would be so much "better" if everyone's thoughts and beliefs were ... benign. How would we achieve that though? I think people would have to be told what to think and what to believe. It would need to be enforced, emphasis on force. At that point, would we really be living, able to change and grow?

No. I think, much as it causes pain and destruction in some cases, it's best to have societies in which people are allowed the right to think and believe as they will. Some rights, ideals, are so important, in my mind, that we must take risks to ensure their survival, regardless of the cost.

But ... it's definitely an uncomfortable thought ....

[Galileia]

Tough question for i could not even start to imagine myself living in this world without both of them.

But to pick an option is the purpose of this discussion, i must drop one answer and so i'd choose Religion over science. Because holding on to science does not particularly uplift me when in darkness. I draw my strength from God, not from science.

[Hazel]

you draw your strength from within, and the people around you, like everyone else, even if you like to call it god. Science is what has provided the medical knowledge for you to be alive right now, instead of dead of a currently curable disease, like measles, and has provided the computer and all the behind the scenes of computer technology for you to be able to say you'd get rid of science on the internet for people all around the world to see. Thats far more wondrous and uplifting than any god.

[Galileia]

If science and technology is fitting enough to be one's God then so be it. But as for me, i know where it lies and where it's coming from and no one else can point a finger and tell me where i should get it from.

[Isabella]

More wars have been a result of religion than anything else. I would choose a world without religion.

[[deleted user]]

Isabella wrote: "More wars have been a result of religion than anything else. I would choose a world without religion."

Which wars?

[Shanna]

Antiquus wrote: "If science and technology is fitting enough to be one's God then so be it. But as for me, i know where it lies and where it's coming from and no one else can point a finger and tell me where i shou..."

It's not about swapping one "god(deity)" for another "god(technology)". It's the hypothesis of "god" is unecessary. The world is wondrous, man's capabilities are wondrous (and terrifying). No good achieved with religion that isn't achieved without out it. But there are some evils peculiar to and justified by religion that human beings could do without because the good doesn't outweigh the bad.

[Shanna]

Shannon wrote: "Isabella wrote: "More wars have been a result of religion than anything else. I would choose a world without religion."

Which wars?"

Crusades, inquisition, the Thirty Years war, French wars of religion, Second Sudanese wars, Lebanese civil war, Palestinian Israel conflict, Ireland, The Ethiopian Adal war, the buddhist uprising, the Dungan revolt and the Panathay rebellion, the Jewish Roman wars, the conquistadors, the various reformations, english civil war, Bosnia/Herzegovinia, Rwanda, The cote d'ivorie, Cyprus, east Timor, Iraq, Kosovo, Kurdistan, Chechnaya, Somalia,

Afghanistan Extreme, radical Fundamentalist Muslim terrorist groups & non-Muslims Osama bin Laden heads a terrorist group called Al Quada (The Source) whose headquarters were in Afghanistan. They were protected by, and integrated with, the Taliban dictatorship in the country. The Northern Alliance of rebel Afghans, Britain and the U.S. attacked the Taliban and Al Quada, establishing a new regime in part of the country. The fighting continues.

Bosnia Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic), Muslims Fragile peace is holding, due to the presence of peacekeepers. 2

Côte d'Ivoire Muslims, Indigenous, Christian Following the elections in late 2000, government security forces "began targeting civilians solely and explicitly on the basis of their religion, ethnic group, or national origin. The overwhelming majority of victims come from the largely Muslim north of the country, or are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants..." 5 A military uprising continued the slaughter in 2002.

Cyprus Christians & Muslims The island is partitioned, creating enclaves for ethnic Greeks (Christians) and Turks (Muslims). A UN peace keeping force is maintaining stability.

East Timor Christians & Muslims A Roman Catholic country. About 30% of the population died by murder, starvation or disease after they were forcibly annexed by Indonesia (mainly Muslim). After voting for independence, many Christians were exterminated or exiled by the Indonesian army and army-funded militias in a carefully planned program of genocide and religious cleansing. The situation is now stable

India Animists, Christians, Hindus, Muslims & Sikhs Various conflicts that heat up periodically producing loss of life. Christians are regularly attacked in Orissa province by militant Hindu extremists.

Indonesia, province of Ambon Christians & Muslims After centuries of relative peace, conflicts between Christians and Muslims started during 1999-JUL in this province of Indonesia. The situation now appears to be stable.

Indonesia, province of Halmahera Christians & Muslims 30 people killed. 2,000 Christians driven out; homes and churches destroyed.

Iraq Kurds, Shiite Muslims, Sunni Muslims, western armed forces By mid-2006, a small scale civil war, primarily between Shiite and Sunni Muslims started. The situation appears to be steadily improving since the coalition forces have withdrawn from the cities.
Kashmir Hindus & Muslims A chronically unstable region of the world, claimed by both Pakistan and India. The availability of nuclear weapons and the eagerness to use them are destabilizing the region further. More details Thirty to sixty thousand people have died since 1989. A plebescite would be the obvious solution, except that one side has always refused to permit one.

Kosovo Serbian Orthodox Christians & Muslims Peace enforced by NATO peacekeepers. There is convincing evidence of past mass murder by Yugoslavian government (mainly Serbian Orthodox Christians) against ethnic Albanians (mostly Muslim) Full story

Kurdistan Christians, Muslims Periodic assaults on Christians (Protestant, Chaldean Catholic, & Assyrian Orthodox).
Macedonia Macedonian Orthodox Christians & Muslims Muslims (often referred to as ethnic Albanians) engaged in a civil war with the rest of the country who are primarily Macedonian Orthodox Christians during the 1990s. A peace treaty has been signed. Disarmament by NATO is complete.

Middle East Jews, Muslims, & Christians The peace process between Israel and Palestine suffered a complete breakdown. This has resulted in the deaths of thousands, in the ratio of three dead for each Jew who died. Major strife broke out in 2000-SEP. Flareups repeat. No resolution appears possible.

Nigeria Christians, Animists, & Muslims Yourubas and Christians in the south of the country are battling Muslims in the north. Country is struggling towards democracy after decades of Muslim military dictatorships.

Northern Ireland Protestants, Catholics After 3,600 killings and assassinations over 30 years. A ceasefire is holding.

Pakistan Suni & Shi'ite Muslims Low level mutual attacks, overshadowed by Taliban insurrectionists.

Philippines Christians & Muslims A low level conflict between the mainly Christian central government and Muslims in the south of the country has continued for centuries.

Russia, Chechnya Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims The Russian army attacked the breakaway region. Many atrocities have been alleged on both sides. According to the Voice of the Martyrs: "In January 2002 Chechen rebels included all Christians on their list of official enemies, vowing to 'blow up every church and mission-related facility in Russia'."

Somalia Wahhabi and Sufi Muslims Sufi Muslims -- a tolerant moderate tradition of Islam are fighting the Shabab who follow the Wahhabi tradition of Islam in a continuing conflict.

South Africa Animists & "Witches" Hundreds of persons, suspected and accused of witches practicing black magic, are murdered each year.

Sri Lanka Buddhists & Hindus Tamils (a mainly Hindu 18% minority) are involved in a war aimed at dividing the island and creating a homeland for themselves. Conflict had been underway since 1983 with the Sinhalese Buddhist majority (70%). Over a hundred thousand people have been killed. The conflict took a sudden change for the better in 2002-SEP, when the Tamils dropped their demand for complete independence. The South Asian Tsunami in 2004-DEC induced some cooperation. By 2009 the Tamil uprising was crushed by the government.

Sudan Animists, Christians & Muslims Complex ethnic, racial, religious conflict in which the Muslim regime committed genocide against both Animists and Christians in the south of the country. Slavery and near slavery were practiced. A ceasefire was signed in 2006-MAY between some of the combatants. 3 Warfare continues in the Darfur region, primarily between a Muslim militia and Muslim inhabitants.

Thailand Buddhists & Muslims Muslim rebels have been involved in a bloody insurgency in southern Thailand -- a country that is 95% Buddhist.

Tibet Buddhists & Communists Country was annexed by Chinese Communists in late 1950's. Brutal suppression of Buddhism continues.

Uganda Animists, Christians, & Muslims Christian rebels of the Lord's Resistance Army are conducting a civil war in the north of Uganda. Their goal is a Christian theocracy whose laws are based on the Ten Commandments. They abduct, enslave and/or raped about 2,000 children a year. 6

[Galileia]

Shanna wrote: "Antiquus wrote: "If science and technology is fitting enough to be one's God then so be it. But as for me, i know where it lies and where it's coming from and no one else can point a finger and tel..."

@shanna: i agree, this is not something about swapping, but for what it sounds, it may have been about someone that want me to consider and think otherwise. I'm not rubbing in anything against anyone's belief here nor debate against anyone's opinion nor prove that i am right but merely answering the question "Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion? " So if i say that i chose Religion then let it be for i dont intend to question whichever u take for an answer for your belief or opinion is yours alone.

[[deleted user]]

I agree with your list, Shanna. Although, I believe the first crusade was started by the pope for other reasons, namely the fact that all heck was about to break loose in Europe between squabbling factions. A crusade worked for the pope; it was quite convenient. It focused all of that ... energy ... elsewhere.

Of course, the thing of it is ... people keep saying, over and over and over, that religion causes more wars than anything else.

While there have been horrible wars over religion, I do not believe religion has caused more wars than anything else.

Wars that were not caused by religion ...

The Vietnam Conflict
The Korean War
World War II
World War I
The Civil War (America)
The French Revolutionary Wars
The Revolutionary War (America)
King Philip's War
The Spanish American War

Not to mention wars from forever ago ... like ...

Stephen and Maud's Civil War (for the English crown)
William's invasion of England ... The Battle of Hastings
Boudicca's uprising against the Romans
The Third Servile War
The Punic Wars
The Peloponnesian Wars

I'm fairly certain I could go on and on. All of these wars, which weren't religious wars, cost millions and millions and millions and millions of lives.

Yes, there have been religious wars. However, I do not for one second fall for the idea that religion has caused more wars than anything else.

[Shanna]

I think colonial wars like King Philips war, could be arguably attributed to religion it's about imposition of a way of life on others (and the taking of resources) and when that way of life is based on a religion and suppression of the native "religion".
I'll also argue once the military and governmental leaders start to exhort the population with propaganda of god, divine right, religion even if it's not their motivation, then for the combatants it becomes religious and that makes it a religious war I think you be pretty hard pressed to find war without such elements

[[deleted user]]

Shanna ... Tell me I'm not crazy. Did you change your original post? 'Cause if you didn't, I might need to check in with a doctor.

Now, I could add a ton of wars that weren't based in religion to my original post. I'm not going to, because, frankly, most of us know what they were. I mean, heck, the Khans, the Huns, The Long March, etc....

My point. Some believe religion has been the cause of most wars, if not almost all wars. Frankly, that's just not accurate. Have there been horrid religious wars? Yes. But, ....

[Travis]

But, shannon, your 'non-religious' war list is a third of Shanna's and there's at least two on it that fall into a grey area ( ask a jew if they think WW2 was non-religious) .
So, the 'I could go on...' and etc feels a bit weak.

If religion is a main factor, the excuse used or it was started by a pope then, I think Shanna's argument is pretty much rock solid.

[[deleted user]]

Did the war in the Pacific during WWII count as a religious war, Travis? I think not. In addition to the fact that we had a war in the Pacific that had nothing to do with religion, the European theater had little to do with religion either. Yes, millions of Jews were killed. But, you and I both know that started because Germany's economy was DECIMATED and people were buying loaves of bread for wheelbarrows full of money that was, largely, worthless. So ....

I will; however, give you King Philip's War. While I think, ultimately, it had to do with land, there were definitely religious overtones. So, I will give you that one.

WWII. That would be more than a little disingenuous.

Now, while I said I wasn't going to do this ...

The War of 1812
The Seven Year's War
The Hundred Years' War
The Wars of the Roses

The Wars of Rome, around 16 or so of them, which included the Punic Wars (previously mentioned) ...

Getting tired, Travis, and I'd like to go read a book I started today, so I'll end here.

But, I will say this ...

My argument was not that there haven't been religious wars. I think that's pretty evident from my posts. My argument is that religion has not caused most wars, which is a popular but misguided view.

Oh, and ... I didn't even list any of the wars of the Khans .... Or, the Viking incursions. Or ...

[[deleted user]]

Dang...! I so can't sleep. Jolted awake thinking of wars. The Napoleonic Wars! Then, I thought of all of those Welsh princes! How many "wars" were there between the Welsh princes?! The Welsh and the English? Then, I thought, if some of Shanna's "low level conflicts" count, what about, for example, ummm, dare I say it, Robin Hood. Oh, I know, I know. But, while Robin is a legend, we do know there were outlaws who sparred with King John's agents. Does that count? And, here I sit, awake. Thoughts of war is not conducive to sleep.

[[deleted user]]

All of the conflicts between the different Scottish clans ....

I won't say the conflicts between Scotland and England, due to some religious overtones (Jacobite Rebellion), but, in the very, very beginning, I don't think the conflicts were based in religion.

The Barons' War ... Sharon Kay Penman wrote a great book about this, detailing the rise of Simon de Montfort. (Of course, to be fair, when I was in bed, staring at the ceiling, thinking of Simon de Montfort, I remembered his father, I believe. He slaughtered the Cathars. I don't think Shanna mentioned the Cathars. Definitely a war against people based on religion.)

I'm going to say we need to share the murder of the Templars. I think most historians believe that was over greed ... land and money and power. But, religion was used as a tool in that. It's not like the church would have been able to kill the Templars and steal their lands and monies without cause. The people would have united behind the Templars. And, I don't believe there was cause, except for greed and the fear that the Templars were becoming too powerful. So, out came the stories of spitting ... or was it urinating ... on the crucifix. Heretics! I'd say I have a good argument for that not being about religion, in truth, but, I'm content to say it's a draw.

The Basque terrorists, the ETA ...

I just know I'm missing some, but I need to start counting cute and cuddly sheep and stop counting wars and terroristic violence.

Wait!! What was his name?! I think he founded the Holy Roman Empire. He died and his kingdom was divided between his .... three sons. I think it was three sons. And, they fought and squabbled and killed. Again, that was about greed and power ... but the names escape me.

And, I'm sure there were some wicked wars in Ancient Egypt, but I'm not up on Ancient Egypt. So, I don't know if they were religious or not. I seem to recall that one was religious.

There have to have been some wars or conflicts in Africa that had nothing to do with religion. I'm thinking salt ... and trade. Of course, that leads me to blood diamonds.

What about all of the conflicts between Native American tribes? Those weren't about religion.

Yeah .... I definitely need to go start counting fluffy sheep.

[[deleted user]]

Good gravy!! The Russians! How could I forget the Russians? The Bolsheviks!! Which makes me think ... Cold War, anyone? What was I thinking for not including this? Russian history .... Russian history .... (Again, to be fair, Shanna needs to add the progroms.) But, if I go down the path of Russian wars, I'll never sleep tonight.

[[deleted user]]

Hmmm.... The Brits in Afghanistan. Hmmm.... The Brits in India.

The Soviets in Afghanistan ....

Would have to research these. I don't think they were based in religion, but I can't say for sure. Think it was greed and power, but ....

(So need to stop ....)

[[deleted user]]

The Mafia ....

Gang violence ....

(Think sheep. Think fluffy sheep and not war and conflicts....)

[Shanna]

Shannon wrote: "Shanna ... Tell me I'm not crazy. Did you change your original post? 'Cause if you didn't, I might need to check in with a doctor.

Now, I could add a ton of wars that weren't based in religion t..."

Yes I did, sorry to confuse you, it was only a matter of seconds when I decided it needed editing, You must have been quick off the button

[cerebus]

I think we can safely say that some wars are caused by religion, and some aren't :)
I think where religion gets the bad rap when it comes to war is when believers trot out the "without religion all would be violent" line....whilst it is unfair to say religion causes all wars, I think at that point it is fair to point out that religion has often been the cause of violence.
For the wars that were not based around religion the causes can never, in my opinion, be traced to atheism and a "I can do anything if I have no god!" approach. In fact even in wars not started by religion often each side will feel that their god (frequently the same one as the other side) is "with them" and that they will prevail as a result.

Shannon said "Think it was greed and power"
And there we have probably the most succinct explanation for the vast majority of wars :)

[Shanna]

Nope didn't mention the cathars, that's pure unadulterated one. Actually probably not If I remember rightly there was rumour of cathar treasure that may have been a motivating factor.

[[deleted user]]

Regarding the Cathars, there was the rumor of treasure. However, there is enough evidence, in my mind, to say it had to do with religion. I haven't read about the Cathars in years, but I have this vague memory of Cathars walking into fire rather than convert. Not sure if that's true. I'd have to do some rereading.

Now, thank you so much for letting me know you changed your post! I thought, for a moment, that I'd lost my mind. But, it was so different from the first that ... it had to be different. At the same time, I had a wee bit of fear for my sanity.

Cerebus, I would never, in 5,000 years, claim that wars that weren't based in religion can be traced to atheism. Ah, ... no. Not the point of my posts. Those wars had to do with greed and power. And, as I've said, religion has caused a great deal of war and suffering.

The thing of it is ... it's wrong when people say, without religion, there would be no morality. That argument, which has been made, though poorly since it's a bald-faced lie, would have us believe atheists lack morals. That's bunk. And, I've taken a stand on that. Repeatedly. It's not true and I won't stand for it.

Well, the idea that religion has caused most wars ... or almost all wars ... or that, if we do away with religion there will be no wars, which is voiced on this thread ad nauseam and is next to never challenged, is a lie. Each time I've seen it, the history lover in me cringes. I mean, seriously, do people truly know so little about our history?

But, I've largely kept my "mouth" shut about it. However, a woman can only take so many misguided statements. And, if I'm going to take a stand with atheists regarding morality because it's true and, therefore, worthy, I'm going to take a stand on the truth when it comes to history.

[Hazel]

A question for everyone. Is a war started and/or motivated by someone who has built a cult of personality about themselves (Stalin, Mao etc) a religious war?

[[deleted user]]

I suppose that would depend on how religion is defined.

And, it would depend on our bias, regarding religion.

Given the most widely accepted definition of religion, my answer would be ... no ... Stalin and Mao did not start religious wars. And, they'd likely, if still alive, attempt to kill or re-educate anyone who would say otherwise.

[Paul]

Hazel wrote: "A question for everyone. Is a war started and/or motivated by someone who has built a cult of personality about themselves (Stalin, Mao etc) a religious war?"
Bizarrely I wouldn't tend to group those as religious wars, although fundamentally there's not much difference. Whether it's a idealised person or a made up deity as the figurehead the results are often the same.

[Hazel]

I think theres a large, and rapidly growing section of the worlds population who will disagree with you. I'm an atheist, I live without belief in god, I do just fine. Its certainly not impossible and stating that it is, is utterly ludicrous.

in one short post you have said that atheists lead an imossible life, and that anyone who doesn't believe in the almighty, (by which I assume you mean the christian god?) is living an impossible life. Your statement is demonstrably untrue.

[Travis]

My life is impossible, but that's because I have teenagers.

How is life impossible without the man in the sky's guidance?
Are we back to the 'without him we'd all be raping, pillaging and downloading episodes of Glee illegally' argument again?

Best tell me now, as I don't believe in an after life, so if I wait, I'll miss out on the answer.

[Hazel]

Day-z. if you did not mean to generalise, then why did you say "Living without guidance of Almighty is impossible. Period". Thats an absolute statement, not a personal anecdote.

Finally, there is God and there is Devil, which side you choose is your will and your own.

Are you suggesting that not being with god means you're with the devil?

[cHriS]

Isabella wrote: "More wars have been a result of religion than anything else. I would choose a world without religion."

Most wars are about land, not religion.