Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion? Showing 1,401-1,450 of 12,463

[[deleted user]]

I can't believe they're saying mathematics are not a reliable truth!

[Hazel]

I know. I simply couldn't continue reading it. I'll go back another day, when I feel the need to cheer myself up with some comedy.

[Xdyj]

Yeah, that article's author probably never paid attention in his/her high school science class.

I would choose to live in a world with science since I'm an atheist and I believe that the scientific method is the most reliable way towards truth, and people can and should live a moral life whether or not they believe in some deities. I would try my best to be sensitive to other people's beliefs but personally I wouldn't expect myself to be converted to major religions like (fundamentalist) Christianity, Islam or Buddhism b/c imo they have been used to justify inequalities and oppressions for so many times, and because I can not help but think of Occam's razor when someone try to justify some "one true god" or "one true faith".

On the other hand, I like and have nothing against mostly leftist religions like Unitarian or Wicca, and I do agree that most religions have done a lot of good in our world through charities and providing psychological support to believers. Religious people I've met in real life are generally very nice and tolerant. Finally I do not think science and religion are dealing with the same issues so they can and should peacefully coexist with each other :)

[Hazel]

you know, Xdyj, I often find pagans far easier to get on with than people of other religions... I think its generally because they;re not in your face about it, they're non-convertionist, and just quietly get on with it, this may be because its generally a tenet (at least of wicca) that you do not reveal another wiccan as such. That's why I get on well with monotheists who are very personal about their beliefs, and don't expect others to listen to them proselytise.

[Tamer]

A very difficult question. To me it is impossible to live without either

[Shanna]

Zakaria are you saying that God exists only for believers? That if no-one believed then he wouldn't exist?

[Shanna]

Doesn't that make him a rather flimsy god? I guess that's why he spends a great deal of time in the holy texts demanding beleif, expounding his jealousy of other gods and condemning unbelievers to hell. If my existance depended on it, I might be desperate too. Though I think I might be a bit more concrete about establishing my existence that some highly debatable in authenticity old books and suspect agenda'd clerics.

[MadgeUK]

Religious people I've met in real life are generally very nice and tolerant.


People you have personally met maybe but there are thousands of examples of religious people who are far from nice and very intolerant - those who torture people (Inquisitors) or who blow people up (jihadists) for instance. Religions are exclusive, believing that only they have 'the truth' and this breeds intolerance.

Experiments have been done about 'experiencing God' or 'a presence' and it is likely to be due to a certain part of the brain rather than an actual God or presence:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/36...

[Roxy]

Zakaria wrote: "It is not because you haven t experienced God that he does not exist. He may not exist for you."

And which of the many thousands of gods would this one be?

[Giansar]

Zakaria wrote: "I see the fingerprint of God in everything that surround me. Good luck for your quest of evidence.
http://www.vedicsciences.net/articles/fa... "
It always struck me as strange that a lot of people who believe in God - an entity entirely beyond our comprehension - have this urge to prove his existence using science, which is entirely human invention.
I plan to read this article in its entirety but haven't time to do it now.
For now I've read the 'Evolution' part. What the author presents there is rather common - lack of understanding of the concept of evolution and confusing the scientific fact of evolution with the theory of evolution - this is rather like claiming that disproving theory of gravity proves there is no gravity.
Another thing that always seemed weird to me is why religious people are bother by the concept of evolution so much? If you think about it - it is one of the things in the world that rather show the greatness of God than diminish it.

[Cornelia]

I believe that GOD is also a human invention.

[Hazel]

I disagree Giansar, evolution shows the lack of god, it does not show any greatness of a mythical entity at all.

[Connie]

Zakaria wrote: "It is not because you haven t experienced God that he does not exist. He may not exist for you."

If this male god you talk about doesn't exist for some, then isn't "he" already non-existent? What you just asked speaks volumes. That any god is a mere figment of the imagination and one can take it or leave it. Individual choice. To believe in supernaturalism or not to believe in supernaturalism. That is the question. :-)

[Connie]

Tina wrote: you really believe Christians think slavery, genocide, incest and rape are acceptable?
i know you'll say they happened in the old testament but the new testament had a key difference--Jesus fulfilled all the prophesies and set up a new belief-Christianity. I'm not saying it made the Old testament obsolete either, "What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator" Galatians 3:19

The law was changed after Jesus died and rose again.
Let me ask you something, do you believe Jesus existed?

Let’s talk about this.

A guy came along in a time when people still believed very strongly in the future coming of a messiah. All “messiah” means is “anointed one”. The belief is that this person will redeem the world and save humanity from all sin and pain. Well, we’re still waiting. If we wait long enough, something like it may eventually come to pass, and the religious will take credit for the thing by saying “I told you so” even though the end of the world as we know it might happen anyway.

Did this man Jesus actually fulfill all the prophesies? Or, did he just fit the bill? I’m just askin’.

Also, he most assuredly did NOT “set up a new belief-Christianity”! Oh, please.

I hear this a lot, that Jesus “founded Christianity”, or like you say, he set up this new belief system. Hogwash!!!

He didn’t “found” anything. The only thing he set up was that he set himself up for crucifixion and death because of his radical ideas. The term “christianity” was never used in his lifetime and it took 2 to 3 hundred years to establish anything even resembling this new faith. No one knows exactly when or how it came into being. Was it Paul? Was it Constantine? Was it Luke? Was it the Romans? It was all of these and many more I presume, but it evolved just as life itself does.

It was inspired, imagined, and then brought into being by people, not god, not by Jesus. He just happened to be the guy they chose for their spiritual icon.

For some reason, people seem to need an image of a divinity which provides them with an image of focus to worship. It seems to help to anthropomorphize this thing that we really know nothing about.

I don’t know whether Jesus existed or not, maybe there was such a man and maybe there wasn’t. But I wouldn’t put all my money on the notion that the story is real because there were similar beliefs and traditions long before he ever came along.

And as for his birth? That story is old, too. Did anyone ever consider just exactly WHY it is, or how, that the myth of creation has Adam giving birth to Eve via his ribcage? Or, exactly WHY Mary had to be a virgin? Good grief! To help establish a highly false but effectively brainwashing notion of the “superiority” of the male which is bullshit to put it bluntly, and to usurp the outstanding and amazing power of creating life by the Feminine! Religion really is such a load of crap. I have never met a male of any description that was "superior" (oh, they think they are!) to me or any other brilliant woman that I know. Ever. And it isn't going to happen any too soon. It's all been brought about by the thinking that is passed on, which is, in the case of religion, mostly not the truth as a truly loving god would have it.

No, people put their own twist on everything and corrupt it to the Nth degree. Nature created everything in perfect balance and the minds of human beings have destroyed the one true reality, which is what we really ought to be trying to learn more about=Nature=the earth and the cosmos. If we don't, this world WILL collapse, and that ridiculous apocalypse theory will become a self-fulfilling prophesy. But it needn't be.

And the myth of a messiah living, dying, and rising again? That was ancient as well. It was just an old myth renewed and retold, that’s all it was, and that’s all it will ever be. Myth. Believe it or not.

[Connie]

R.C. wrote:

Reality is that, which when you cease to believe in it, continues to exist

--- Philip K. Dick

... and the religious as well as the non-believers could state the same thing to support their arguments. Because the religious are always going to say "god exists" and that even if you don't believe, he/she/it is always there. And of course there is the school of thought that believes the tree is always there even if you can't perceive it via any of your senses. Reminds me of the question that if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it still make a sound?

[Alex]

I think this is actually a really good question. Personally, I would rather live in a world without religion, it just make more sense to me. I do not believe that we NEED religion, and there was a point earlier made, that we need religion to define evil and without religion people would not necessarily be "good and pure if left to their own devices". I think that honestly, there are plenty of people who do not need religion to guide them and are good, if not pure, atheists. Also, "evil" would still be here with or without religion, and if you've noticed, religion isn't exactly making a big impact on getting rid of it. Also, I really hate the whole"if you don't believe what I believe I will kill you/you are going to hell" thing. I'm sure not all religions have that line, but many have some sort of guideline like that. For those that don't this does not apply to you/your religion.So that is why I would rather live without religion.

[Hazel]

Agreed Alex. In fact I'd go so far as to say that anyone claiming there is no morality without religion is a terrifying idea. Its like saying they wouldn't be able to control themselves, that they'd be out stealing, raping and murdering if there wasn't an unseen arbiter who would punish them if they didn't behave, and holding them in check. Its most likely not what most of them mean when they say it, but its the implication that can be drawn, and there are actually people who do specifically say that their religion is the only thing keeping them on the straight and narrow. And to those people, I actively encourage them to keep their faith and keep going to church, because honestly, I don't want them loose without their shackles.

[Tina]

Zakaria wrote: "Tina wrote: "Hazel wrote: "Tina wrote: "Zakaria wrote: "Christianity is an extension of Judaism, Just like Islam being the extension of Christianity."

how is Islam an extension of Christianity?"

..."

Jesus is either a liar, a lunatic or Lord. A man who claims to be God's Son is either completely crazy, therefore not a "good prophet" or "good man". Or he is deliberately lying, and no lying man would be good either. So therefore He is what He claims to be, Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Part of the Holy Trinity. There is one God, in three forms--Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Just as you can be a father, a husband and a son all in one. Can't you?

[Hazel]

Yes, but you can't be your father at the same time as you're you, and you can't be your son at the same time as being you , even the most fucked up of inbreeding doesn't allow that to happen. Thus your argument is rediculous.

The other way to look at it is that jesus,if he existed made none of the claims attributed to him, that he's just a man, who's been pressganged in absentia into heading a religion he had no part of during his life. Another way to look at it is that he didn't exist. You haven't even included these options in your "logical" argument. You have also rejected both the options you did put that would go against what you already believed, without giving them any due consideration within your argument, I suspect because you'd reached your conclusion before forming the argument. Jesus said that you had to hate your family to be his disciple, is that the demand of a good man? All you've done is constructed a wall for yourself, to protect yourself from considering the other options objectively.

Have you ever lied to someone to protect their feelings? Because ultimately lying to them was, in your mind, the right thing to do? FOr example, not being entirely truthful about a pets death to a young child. Or not telling a close friend or relative that they look fat or rediculous, or that they're going to make a fool of themselves, because you don't want to upset them? I'm sure you've lied in your time, and lied to protect someone. Does that mean you're no longer a good person? It is possible to lie, and still be a good person.

And a lunatic? Are you saying it impossible for someone to have mental health problems and to also be a good person? If someone is on medication for mental health problems, can you explain why that makes them a bad person? Because your assertion that someone who claims to be the son of god is a liar, a lunatic or a lord, implies that a lunatic is a bad person, you specifically say that someone being crazy means they are not a "good man". This is very rarely the case. Its actually a common delusion of grandeur among schizophrenics, they claim to be god, or jesus. My favourite one I heard of was a guy claiming to be the duke of northumberland. None of these people are who they claim to be, that doesn't make them a bad person because they're crazy, which is what you're implying.

Other words attributed to Jesus is that we are all gods children, and if thats the case, as he said, then what makes him so special? It is not until the gospels written far after his assumed time of death that include any claim of him being the son fo god, and it wasn't until the council of nicea that he was deified.

One god in three forms, thats pantheism, by the way.

Just to create a comparison for your argument on a more direct (and possibly simple) explaination is to reduce your argument slightly, you state that Jesus must be the Son of God, mad or evil. This is like saying that Make up adverts are all aimed at women therefore all women wear make up ergo everyone who wears make up is a woman. You are taking one "fact" or observation then making a false deduction from it, then making an even bigger jump to a final conculsion without thinking every step through and ignoring evidence and observation.

I get post no. 1500, do I get a prize? :P

[Alex]

Hazel, that is so true. I do not believe that people should be scared into being good. That is so ridiculous. I agree with your argument on post 1500 and 1498. The whole idea that we have to be kept in line by some person who there is absolutely, as far as we know, no proof of, is completely ridiculous. But if that's what people believe, that they cannot be good without it, by themselves, then I guess they should continue with what they say. But people out there, it IS possible to be good by yourself, that is why we have a CONSCIENCE. :)

[Tina]

Hazel you are very knowledgeable, I'm not doubting that, but sometimes you have a great way of acting like you know a lot more than you do, but some of the things you say have nothing to do with what I'm even talking about. Jesus was not telling kind white lies, he was claiming he was the SON OF GOD that's a pretty huge claim.
And the part about Jesus being a lunatic, you're going away from the main point, I'm saying why would you believe the claims of a lunatic?

Not that a lunatic is necessarily a bad person. You're putting words in my mouth.



um and pantheism is not the Trinity, it is a belief that God is the Universe and the Universe is God, put simply. That is not what I believe. God is the Creator of the Universe. The universe is creation. Two separate things.
The Trinity is a very hard concept to understand and I don't believe I can explain it fully; many have trouble explaining it. That's another key difference between believers and atheists, we are willing to admit there are some things in this world we just can't understand, but one day we will.

and I admit I don't understand your last argument. . .

[Tina]

Alex wrote: "Hazel, that is so true. I do not believe that people should be scared into being good. That is so ridiculous. I agree with your argument on post 1500 and 1498. The whole idea that we have to be kep..."

another misconception about Christians--WE ARE NOT GOOD. WE ARE SINNERS. WE DESERVE NOTHING. Our hope is only in the saving love of Jesus Christ. We choose Christ and we choose to love because He loved. It's not forced, it's not a law, it's that we love others because He first loved us. I'm not saying it's easy, I'm not saying I'm perfect, I'm saying it's a struggle and I could do nothing without the strength of God.

[Alex]

I was a Catholic. I saw the way everything was done, so I have seen both sides. My problem with it is that I simply do not see why everything, or nearly everything must be credited to someone there is no proof of. If you gave me proof, tangible, unarguable, and true proof, then I might retract my statement. But there is NO proof. And the whole thing about us being sinners and deserving nothing, is another concept I dislike. I prefer to call that being human and it is all quite similar to a law. The whole 10 Commandments deal? "Follow all this, and hey you get a free ride to heaven. But if you don't, your afterlife won't be so pleasant"? That is a barely hidden threat. And you said it is a choice? It never sounded like a choice to me, it sounded like the "people of God" were saying that you have to follow MY way, because not only is your way bad, it will land you a free pass into the land of eternal torment. That sounds like they're trying to scare people into following God. Although, I will acknowledge that not all of them go around doing stuff like that. And your argument to Hazel? well, I know what the whole Trinity is, and I resent your statement "That's another key difference between believers and atheists, we are willing to admit there are some things in this world we just can't understand, but one day we will." Just because we do not believe what you believe, does not mean that we are so pigheaded as to say that we refuse to admit that there are things we do not understand. Also, were you ever an atheist? Because if you weren't, I do not see how you would have the knowledge to say something like that. I do not mean to undermine or offend either you or your religion, I am only saying what I believe.

[Tina]

My entire family is Catholic, and I am not trying to offend you, or offend them, or any other Catholics, but that is not what it is about!

It's not about forcing people to follow the law, it is about a desire to follow it out of love, don't you see the difference between the two?

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

I feel like many Catholics become distracted by rituals and going to church and motions after motions and acts of goodness and acts of love but it is what is in your heart that ultimately saves you. I'm not saying you can say you love Jesus and go around killing people either, please don't think that. ( Of course then you wouldn't truly know Jesus if you went around killing people. )

You go to heaven because of one reason-the acceptance of Jesus Christ as a sacrifice for the sins of the world. It's a humbling experience and my wish is not to force this upon someone, it is just to tell them the truth.
I wouldn't say I was an atheist but there were many times when I doubted whether Jesus was real, I wanted proof, I wanted evidence. But I called on Him and He showed Himself in my life, He works miracles daily and I thank Him for that. This is not something you can force anyone to understand, they have to be willing to open themselves to His works.
If you really want to believe Jesus, actual PROOF in your personal life, just humbly and honestly call on Him and see what happens.

[Tina]

R.C. wrote: "Tina wrote: "Zakaria wrote: "Tina wrote: "Hazel wrote: "Tina wrote: "Zakaria wrote: "Christianity is an extension of Judaism, Just like Islam being the extension of Christianity."

how is Islam an ..."

I understand that argument I was coming by the fact that people believe Jesus existed and was a good historical figure, based on what someone said a few threads back.

[[deleted user]]

Tina, when I was a believer I called him many times. I never received a single answer. When I called for science it gave me all the answers I needed for not believing in god any more. With so many proofs that his universe can exist without a higher force, why believe in one?

[Hazel]

Everthing else aside, Tina if this:

another misconception about Christians--WE ARE NOT GOOD. WE ARE SINNERS. WE DESERVE NOTHING. Our hope is only in the saving love of Jesus Christ. We choose Christ and we choose to love because He loved. It's not forced, it's not a law, it's that we love others because He first loved us. I'm not saying it's easy, I'm not saying I'm perfect, I'm saying it's a struggle and I could do nothing without the strength of God.

is honestly what you believe, then you have my deepest sympathies. That is one of the saddest things I have ever heard. You are a human being, a person with almost infinite potential, and you've reduced yourself down to a "sinner" who deserves nothing, and who only sees worth in herself through an external source. That's depressing beyond counting.

Back to all you said, I have addressed everything you have said, Tina, and I have done it logically, drawing implications from what you're saying that you may not have intended, but that are there nonetheless, this isn't putting words in your mouth, it is a roundabout way of suggesting you consider all the implications of your assertions before you make them, and I (possibly mistakenly) granted you the intelligence to realise that. Everything I said was designed to make you think but instead you're bluffly refusing to give anything I say credence, and then go on to claim that I am acting like I know more than I do. What a statement, how dare you imply, nay directly state, that I would comment on something that I haven't looked into. You stated that a man who lies (you didn't specify what level of lying, so I didn't assume a difference based on what you said) is not a good man, I rebuffed that claim. You claimed that a crazy man could not be a good man, you said it specifically, and seeing as there are people in the world who claim to be jesus, and who also claim to be god, we can safely assume that you think that either they're telling the truth, and are holy, or that they're crazy, and thus, as you put it, not a "good man". I am not putting words into your mouth, I'm expanding on what you said to show how it could be interpreted if you don't consider what you're saying before you say it.

Atheists are the ones who don't admit theres things we don't understand? Are you having a giraffe? Come on, the scientific method that the majority of atheists consider the best method for understanding the universe specifically never claims anything to a 100% accuracy, and we're the first to say "I don't know", something that most theists won't do, if its something they can't explain, they attribute it to god, with no evidence for their claim.

I'd also like to point out that atheism isn't a claim, its a rejection of a claim, and doesn't involve a belief system, each atheist is free to believe what they chose, and what they tend to do is look for evidence to back up something before accepting it. If there's no evidence, its rejected until such a time as evidence is forthcoming.

now the trinity, its easy to explain, god is god, and jesus is god too, and so is the holy ghost/spirit, so they're all god. But they are also all separate entities, thus a pantheon. See, that wasn't so hard. Oh sorry, I forgot the 4th member of the "trinity", Metatron, the voice of god.

By the way, there are hundreds of people in asylums who claim to be the son of god, who claim to be jesus. SHould we believe them if they're making the same claim you say Jesus made - he didn't by the way, he never claimed to be the son of god, someone else made the claim, and he rebuffed it, stating that we're are all the sons and daughters of god. He wasn't even considered to be a version of god, as part of a holy trinity, until the Roman Emperor Constantine, a follower of the roman pantheon (specifically Sol Invictus, I believe), thus a pagan, declared him so at the 1st council of nicaea, in AD 325. So, if we go with what Jesus claimed he was, then he was a man, that's it.

[Tina]

Nícia wrote: "Tina, when I was a believer I called him many times. I never received a single answer. When I called for science it gave me all the answers I needed for not believing in god any more. With so many ..."

Keep trying. Maybe when you get really low, with no hope. I get like that even still, it's the world we live in, getting us down.
It takes a lot of patience and persistence and an open mind. And a willingness to give up your life for Him. It's a constant struggle--I'm not saying it's easy, there are forces of good and evil in this world that confuse us.
Just know one day when you really need something to live for, a hope and a reason, Jesus is there.

[Alex]

Thanks, but I really rather not stand in my room and go "Jesus, you there?" over and over until my neighbors tell me to shut up. I suppose they (Catholics) might get distracted by all their rituals, but I wasn't saying that was what its all about. I was saying that I've seen both sides of this argument and ultimately I just didn't believe in it anymore. All the stories, well not all, but some stories, like the one about God asking Abraham to sacrifice his son just to see if Abe was trustworthy and really believed in God? And Abe actually did that, well nearly did but he would've killed his own son? What kind of "merciful and loving" God would ask that of a man? And the lesson is? Love God more than your own family? These are the things that quite frankly, I find outrageous and horrifying. About heaven, accepting Jesus into your life means following the commandments, and just follows my point. Why is it, that you can be good and kind, but if you believe in another God, and Hypothetically, lets say that God is real and therefore so is heaven. This person, who was so good and kind to others, won't be able to go to heaven and have eternal peace and whatnot, just because they didn't believe in something there was no tangible proof of?

[Hazel]

Just a note on prayer, the studies proving it has no positive effect aside, if we pretend god does exist for a moment, he has a divine plan, so why would anyone be so full of hubris as to believe that god would change that plan to grant them what they want? Its either in the plan, so you'll get it even if you don't ask for it, or its not in the plan, so no amount of asking will make a difference.

And even putting the whole divine plan idea aside, if god is omniscient, he already knows what you want, he knew before you were born, he also knew whether it would be granted or not, and as such, asking when god already knows the answer, and has always known the answer presumes that you can change the answer. People presume on gods time a lot.

Now, back to reality. The world you live in gets you down? How? If you have problems go out and deal with them. If you don't like something, change it, if you can't change it accept that fact and move on. But don't waste your time wearing out the knees of your jeans speaking to someone who isn't there, and even if he was wouldn't change his divine plan just for you

[[deleted user]]

Sorry, but I won't. It's silly to pray to someone/something I know it doesn't exist. Hopeless are people that kill and never get what they deserve. Where's god at those times.

We're never on the bottom line when we believe in ourselves. Everyone is strong enough to surpass their problems.

[[deleted user]]

I still don't understand why people say god is good, omniscient, has a paradise or a hell for our souls and other claims. Where are you getting this information?

Edit: If god exists it can be an evil "person", lazy, could have created this and then do something else. I'm an evil god most of the times when I play that game: Black and White.

[Giansar]

Hazel wrote: "I disagree Giansar, evolution shows the lack of god, it does not show any greatness of a mythical entity at all."
Maybe I didn't make myself clear.
What I meant was that if you see the evolution from the perspective of a person that believes in God you should see that: "Wow the guy must be great and powerful to be able to put such a complex process in motion".
I agree that you don't need God to explain evolution or any other scientific facts for that matter - it's implicit: if you need God or any other supernatural power to explain something, this something is not a scientific fact.

[Hazel]

AH, ok, sorry for misunderstanding :)

[Xdyj]

MadgeUK wrote: "Religious people I've met in real life are generally very nice and tolerant.


People you have personally met maybe but there are thousands of examples of religious people who are far from nice and..."

I know, I haven't seen a lot of these probably because I've never lived in a very religious community. Many positions of major churches & religious leaders on social/political issues are against my conscience, which is one of the reasons I would never accept or support them personally. On the other hand, there are lots of different religions and people may have different interpretations for their faith, and I just wanted to avoid stereotyping.

I don't think I have ever seen a definition of "God" that makes "God exists" a legitimate and falsifiable statement :)

[Hazel]

Hi Zak. Is it ok to call you Zak? I believe that RC offered to disprove your definition of god. If you provide a description of what you think god is, then we can see what he can do with it. Should be interesting, iof you're up for it?

[Tina]

I'm sorry Hazel, I do not doubt your intelligence, you certainly know your stuff, and you encourage me even further to continue studying the Word to better defend my faith.

Words of Jesus Christ. . .

John 10:30 "I and the Father are One."

John 13:13 "You call me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am."

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

"Jesus said to them, 'Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." John 8:58

[Tina]

Zakaria wrote: "Tina wrote: "I'm sorry Hazel, I do not doubt your intelligence, you certainly know your stuff, and you encourage me even further to continue studying the Word to better defend my faith.

Words of J..."

Hazel has used Scriptures many a time. I'm proving that what I'm saying doesn't contradict with the material I'm getting my facts from (The Bible). Hazels making a claim about what Jesus said, which is simply untrue:

"SHould we believe them if they're making the same claim you say Jesus made - he didn't by the way, he never claimed to be the son of god, someone else made the claim, and he rebuffed it, stating that we're are all the sons and daughters of god." -Hazel

[Tantra]

I'd take science, please, which is very spiritual to me, which religion isn't.

[Connie]

Tina wrote: "Hazel you are very knowledgeable, I'm not doubting that, but sometimes you have a great way of acting like you know a lot more than you do, but some of the things you say have nothing to do with wh..."

Actually, it is said that Jesus never called himself the son of god. What he did say is that he is the son of man. Whatever the heck that is supposed to mean. What I really detest about religion is all the bloody maleness in it.

[Xdyj]

Whirlwind wrote: "Tina wrote: "Hazel you are very knowledgeable, I'm not doubting that, but sometimes you have a great way of acting like you know a lot more than you do, but some of the things you say have nothing ..."

It's probably because the authors/translators didn't know modern gender-neutral writing. IMO regarding gender issues the Bible has way more "detestable" stuff than this.

[Connie]

Xdyj wrote: "It's probably because the authors/translators didn't know modern gender-neutral writing. IMO regarding gender issues the Bible has way more "detestable" stuff than this."

No! It's not because they didn't know "gender-neutral" writing, it is because they really thought somehow that the male was superior and had a right to dominate. We know that is not true and the world has to now undo all the wrong that was done because of that thinking. But there are no "gender issues" in the bible. It's just misogynistic that's all. So are all of the large religions of this world, I just wish that the people who follow religion would demand change but alas, that's why it's for people craving to be led instead of thinking for themselves.

[Tina]

Zakaria wrote: "I was wrong about what I said earlier about the scripture thing. I am sorry..."

That's all right, don't worry about it. And I don't believe in the Qur'an it's not part of the Holy Bible

[Hazel]

Tina wrote: "I'm sorry Hazel, I do not doubt your intelligence, you certainly know your stuff, and you encourage me even further to continue studying the Word to better defend my faith.

Words of Jesus Christ. ..."

ok Tina, yes, I've used scripture, but only because you seem to set so much store in it. Personally, I think its utter pap, and I quote it to show the inconstancies and pure nastiness contained therein.

Now, I can quote it to you, and ask you to justify what it means is what you think it means, rather than what scholars think it means. But if you quote it to me, my request is "prove that it is the word of god, prove that it is in any way divinely mandated" and of course, considering you claim that what you're gettnig from the bible is fact "prove that its fact".

Your scripture only means squat if you can prove that its source was what you claim it was.

[Tina]

Whirlwind wrote: "Tina wrote: "Hazel you are very knowledgeable, I'm not doubting that, but sometimes you have a great way of acting like you know a lot more than you do, but some of the things you say have nothing ..."

Did you not read the texts from the Bible, of Jesus claiming He is one with God?
Son of Man means He is man as well, fully God and fully man. He became one of us as a sort of bridge to God, "the way the truth and the life" (John 14:6a)

Words of Jesus Christ. . .

John 10:30 "I and the Father are One."

John 13:13 "You call me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am."

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

"Jesus said to them, 'Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." John 8:58

[Tina]

Whirlwind wrote: "Xdyj wrote: "It's probably because the authors/translators didn't know modern gender-neutral writing. IMO regarding gender issues the Bible has way more "detestable" stuff than this."

No! It's no..."

"that's why it's for people craving to be led instead of thinking for themselves."

It is the ultimate choice-to believe Jesus Christ. God gives all of us free will-some choose to believe, some don't. It's that simple.

[Hazel]

And I say again, prove it. Prove that what the bible says is true, that its divinely mandated.

And lets not start on free will again, sufficeto say if someone gives you freewill, then it is not free will, because it had to be given to you, and from a being like god, can be removed at any time, and you'd never know.

[Tina]

Jesus wrote: "All rite, I think it's time I set the record straight."

hahahaaa and what do you think, "Jesus"?

[Hazel]

I removed this due to it being unfair. BUt left this note, so if it had been read, this would be seen.

[[deleted user]]

If we believe what the gospels say about Jesus, if we take it all literally, whole-cloth, we'd know that Jesus didn't seek people out and try to convince them to follow Him. He didn't run around and throw scripture at people in an attempt to make them believe. He was .... He was in certain places and he talked with people and people went to listen to him speak. He told stories and spoke in parables. By speaking in parables, He allowed people to use their minds and pull from their own experiences in order to decide what the parable meant for them. And, sometimes, he healed someone he meant along the way. People, then, began to come to Him to be healed.

I wonder .... How would Jesus want people who believe in Him and His message to live ... to interact ... to be part of this thread? I don't think, for Him, that it would be about PROVING anything by argument. I think it would be about ... being ... for Him. Living life in a certain way. Acting and reacting in a certain way. If people truly believe in Jesus as Christ, ... if that's what is in their hearts ... they don't need to prove that. They can be content in that and live in that and just be.

Others might not believe. That's their choice and their right.

With the exception of the Apostles, Jesus did not actively ask or demand that people follow Him. He did not tell them they were wrong if they didn't. He did not tell them He didn't believe in their holy books, etc.... He just was. If people wanted to listen ... if they wanted healing, etc..., they could listen and ask for healing.

And ... look at His parable regarding the good Samaritan. The Samaritans were DESPISED by the Jews. Why? In part due to the fact that they practiced Judaism in part ... and IDOLATRY in part. Yet, Jesus held a Samaritan up as being good and just. He used someone, who wasn't truly a believer, as an example ... He put forth this "person" as someone for us to emulate. Perhaps not in faith ... but in being. (Note ... I used quotes as I think He was speaking metaphorically.) In a time when His listeners totally and completely hated Samaritans and might have condemned Jesus or worse for holding them up as good and just, He did so.

I wonder what we can learn from that.

I felt the need to share my thoughts on that ... so ...