Angels & Demons
discussion
Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion?
Do you really and truly invite people to "come along and convince" you that there "really IS a god" ...? Is that truly what's in your heart?
I think you and I both know that no one will every be able to do that. True. You and I both know that no one will be able to provide incontrovertible facts that prove, scientifically and without any doubt, that God exists. So, in truth, you're not really inviting people to do this and waiting, ready to respect them.
I believe in God. I'm a woman of faith, despite the fact that I'm not a woman of one religion. I am willing to say to you, Whirlwind, that I am not able to prove to you or to myself that God exists. (And, as an aside, I have dared to pick up Hitchens.) You're going to wait a really, really long time, because I'm not going to be able to give you what you're asking for ... nor will any person of faith ... as you very well know.
Do I sound self-righteous? Quite possibly. But, I'm honest.
I think you and I both know that no one will every be able to do that. True. You and I both know that no one will be able to provide incontrovertible facts that prove, scientifically and without any doubt, that God exists. So, in truth, you're not really inviting people to do this and waiting, ready to respect them.
I believe in God. I'm a woman of faith, despite the fact that I'm not a woman of one religion. I am willing to say to you, Whirlwind, that I am not able to prove to you or to myself that God exists. (And, as an aside, I have dared to pick up Hitchens.) You're going to wait a really, really long time, because I'm not going to be able to give you what you're asking for ... nor will any person of faith ... as you very well know.
Do I sound self-righteous? Quite possibly. But, I'm honest.
The invitation is an understood and unspoken one. Yes, the invitation stands. I'd really like to know how people figure that there is a god. Furthermore whether there is or there isn't, why do people believe? You probably don't wish to openly discuss that; as I said it might be too embarrassing, or you don't want to be put in that corner. It's all nebulous thinking, this god stuff. You're a woman of faith but you don't follow one religion; does that mean that the god you believe in was designed by you and you alone, taking what you know and making one for yourself in your mind that you understand? You answered the whole point: that no one of any faith can or will give me what I'm looking for because they CANNOT, ergo god does not exist. I'm honest, too--without religion telling me that I have to be. And I'm not an atheist. That's not how I see myself. Not saying that you said I was, but that's the assumption by most people and I think you've used the term in the discussion.
Shannon, just keep this in your mind:
Learning is finding out what you already know.
Doing is demonstrating that you know it.
Teaching is reminding others that they know it just as well as you.
We are all learners, doers and teachers.
— Richard Bach
Learning is finding out what you already know.
Doing is demonstrating that you know it.
Teaching is reminding others that they know it just as well as you.
We are all learners, doers and teachers.
— Richard Bach
I think that most people who say, "I believe in God" really mean "I'd LIKE TO believe in God, but really, I'm just following what I think I should, because it just might be dangerous to utter that I secretly don't really believe at all." In their heart of hearts, do people just say it because they feel they should, or are they simply too scared to do otherwise, just in case god exists after all? And if you speak out against "Him" (is he a he?) he'll dash you to hell in an instant, so they tell everybody they believe, hoping that "He" can't read their mind. Isn't religion kind of taken as an insurance policy in a way?I love the story about Winston Churchill's son, Randolph. He had somehow escaped ever reading the bible and so a few friends challenged him to read it in a couple of weeks. While reading it, he chortled and guffawed, much to the amusement of his friends, declaring now and then, "This God! Isn't God a shit?" So surprised was Churchill at how angry, vengeful, jealous and violent this god of Christianity was. :-)
http://www.amazon.com/Code-Global-Eth...THE CODE FOR GLOBAL ETHICS
1. DIGNITY: Proclaim the natural dignity and inherent worth of all human beings.
2. RESPECT: Respect the life and property of others.
3. TOLERANCE: Be tolerant of others’ beliefs and lifestyles.
4. SHARING: Share with those who are less fortunate and assist those who are in need of help.
5. NO DOMINATION: Do not dominate through lies or otherwise.
6. NO SUPERSTITION: Rely on reason, logic, and science to understand the Universe and to solve life’s problems.
7. CONSERVATION: Conserve and improve the Earth’s natural environment.
8. NO WAR: Resolve differences and conflicts without resorting to war or violence.
9. DEMOCRACY: Rely on political and economic democracy to organize human affairs.
10. EDUCATION: Develop one’s intelligence and talents through education and effort.
From: http://acurseonalltheirhouses.net/
Okay, Whirlwind. I'll believe in you and your words. I'll believe that you're issuing an open invitation and truly would like me, or any person who believes in God, to answer your question. Why do I believe? Fine. I'm not embarrassed and don't feel backed in a corner. Nope. I'll answer you. (I wonder how you'll respond to my answer ...)
As I've mentioned before, my parents hadn't, so they've said, talked to me about God and religion when I was super little. My mother was not raised in the church. My father went to Sunday school at a United Methodist church but didn't go to church services ... nor did his parents. So, there I was, being raised by two people who didn't go to church and didn't talk with me about God. One day, I was almost badly hurt. My mother lost it, cried and carried on. I said, and this is one of my first memories, "Don't worry, Mommy. The people in the light won't ever let anything hurt me." I remember having this feeling, this knowing, that there were "people" in the light ... but they weren't really people. I felt like they loved me and were watching over me and were protecting me.
My mother flipped. How was I talking about people in the light? Unlike what Hazel's mother would have done ... treated it as an imaginary friend, my mother rushed me to a church. Given the fact that she hadn't been raised in a church, she didn't even know what she was ... Christian ... but what .... She knew my father was United Methodist, sort of, but he didn't want much to do with it. She asked around town, trying to see what the different churches were about. A lot of people with young children were going to a particular church in town, so she took me there.
Between my mentioning the people in the light and going to that church, my mother told me about God. What did she say? Something along the lines of ... God loves us and wants good things for us and wants us to be happy and healthy and good. Okay. I got behind that. That totally made sense to me. Of course, I was only five. But, the idea that there was this God who loved me and wanted to look out for me made a lot of sense, especially given my feeling about the people in the light.
Off we went to church .... It was December. We started in the sanctuary. Then, I joined the children downstairs for Sunday school.
There was a Christmas tree with a cradle and a doll. Huh? The teacher had us all sit down. All of the other children were holding presents. The teacher said it was the baby Jesus' birthday and we were to give the baby presents. Fortunately for me, she said with impatience, she'd brought extra gifts.
Well, I started asking questions. Who was the baby Jesus? My mother had left that out. After that was explained, I asked why she thought the baby doll was the baby Jesus? It was a doll. And, the baby Jesus grew up. So, why were we pretending he was a baby doll? And, if Jesus was in Heaven with God, why did he need us to give him presents? What presents would he need?
Oh, yes, that teacher took quite a liking to me, as you might imagine.
Then, she started calling children up to give their presents to Jesus. She called a boy ... and another boy ... and another boy ... and another boy. You get my point. After she'd called up almost every boy, I asked if she was going to call up one of the girls. She'd called up almost all of the boys, I explained. Didn't she think it would be good and fair to call up one of the girls?
That's when she said, "Oh, Shannon, you see, I called the boys up first for a reason. You see, the baby Jesus loves little boys more than he loves little girls."
No joke. It's at that point that I started arguing with the woman about God and Jesus and the people in the light. And, I told her I knew God and the people in the light loved everyone. At that point, I walked out, stormed up the steps, walked down the aisle, grabbed my mother and told her we were going ... going ... going ... right then. That was pretty out of character. I wasn't one for tantrums. But, I threw one right then and right there. My mother was horrified, but she got up and left with me. I told her what happened and cried my eyes and my heart out. How could anyone say God loved some people more than others? Hey, I'd had no learning or real religious indoctrination at that time. But, I knew in my heart, really knew, that it wasn't right to love some people and not love others ... or to love some people more.
That's when my mother and I sat down and had a conversation about who wrote the Bible ... people ... men ... and we talked, even though I was so little, about what the world was like when the Bible was written and why parts of it dealt with women so poorly. (Yes, parts. I don't believe the words Jesus was said to have spoken or the choices he is said to have made dealt with women poorly. I think the opposite.)
At any rate, I told my mother that I'd never go to Sunday school again. Oh, I meant it. I told her I'd never go back to that church. Not ever. And, I'd never let her make me go to Sunday school. Well, we basically didn't go back to church ... until I hit the 7th grade. At that point, my mother said I HAD to go to confirmation classes. To say that we had HUGE fights over that would be a vast understatement. She had promised me that she'd never make me go to Sunday school again. I considered her, at this point, to be a liar who'd broken her promise. She explained it with a lame excuse. It was different. It was a set of confirmation classes.
She said, while I had to go, that it was up to me whether or not I joined the church at the end of it. In addition, she knew I had serious issues about some of the tenets of Christianity and had from the time I was just knee-high to a tadpole. Why weren't we Jewish? Jesus was a Jew. And ... Why didn't we believe in the Great Spirit, like our Native American ancestors? And, that thing about conversion. I was always big into history and could not and would not believe that people HAD to be converted in order to be saved. No. I thought, from almost the beginning, that all sorts of different people could follow all sorts of different paths to God. I really did. I really still do. Given all of this, my mother approached the pastor and asked if she could work on a special curriculum for our classes. He'd handle the "indoctrination" into the United Methodist faith. She'd bring in or take us to other churches. Yeah, it was quite a feat, but she got him to agree. So, while we learned about the United Methodist church, we also learned about the Catholics and Lutherans and Jews and .... On and on.
Oh, .... Every once in awhile, the pastor would go on about how Christians were the only true believers and, within that, Methodists were the best followers of God. The other kids hated those days. Why? I'd fight with the pastor. I'd ask him to point to the passage in the gospels where Jesus told the people to turn from the Jewish faith and become Christians. I'd ask him to show us where in the Bible it told us to say bad things about Catholics and Baptists and Buddhists. Yeah, those days kind of went down ugly.
Now, in the end, I joined the church. Why? Everyone was doing it. Once I hit my 20's though, it rubbed me wrong. I contacted the church and asked if I could take back my membership/my confirmation. I was told I could but it would be as if I'd never existed within the church. I filled out the paperwork. Further, I checked with the church years later. It truly is as if I'd never been confirmed as a United Methodist.
Since that point, I've considered myself a non-denominational Christian. However, man, do I ever have conflicts sometimes. It's the whole Jewish thing for me. I can't tell you the memories I have of arguing with my mother when I was little ... really little. I totally thought we should be Jewish ... and that Jesus never meant for people to become Christians.
But, I digress.
Why do I believe now? I just keep going back to that "knowing" I had when I was little. That feeling was so strong. Frankly, it's one of the strongest feelings I've ever had ... that I wasn't alone ... that the "people" in the light were always there. As I grew up, there were times when I felt the presence of God. No, I can't prove it scientifically. So, don't go there. I admit it. But, you asked why I believe, Whirlwind, so ....
One time was in a church in Montreal. We went to Montreal on a field trip in high school. We went to all sorts of places, including a church. I don't remember which one. There we were, a bunch of goofy teens, goofing around. We were walking around this church and, all of a sudden, I had this feeling. I can't even describe it adequately. But, I was walking with friends, laughing and smiling, and, all of a sudden, I stopped short. I felt like this ... something ... washed over me ... almost like a wave in the ocean. It felt like perfect happiness and joy and love. Now, given what I've told you about my experiences in churches, etc..., you have to know I wasn't buying into the programing. So, no, I don't think I had this experience due to indoctrination. I don't know why it happened the way it did ... but it did ... and it was as if I was stuck in place. I started to cry. It was this crazy and amazing experience. I felt, in that moment, like I'd come in direct contact with God.
I've had a similar feeling a couple other times. But, that was the strongest time and it's the one the sticks best in my mind.
So, can I point to God ... show you a picture ... come up with a way to test for God's presence? Duh. Obviously, I can't. But, I'm telling you, I've FELT God's presence. I truly have. And, for me, well ... I can believe in things without them being proven to me. The fact that I have a sense of knowing about them ... that I feel them ... is proof ... to me. I don't expect it to be proof to you or anyone. But, it is for me.
Now, there have been other things .... Here's a story. Yes, a quaint personal story that might bore many. But, again, you asked ... so ...
When I was 14, I had a physical and the doctor found these weird lumps in my breast. It was the '80's and this was unheard of at that time. My mother searched and searched for a surgeon who wasn't going to operate at the outset. We found one, finally. As the years passed, we found there were three teens in New England who had the same issue. Our individual doctors were in touch with one another and a specialist in Boston. They were studying us and trying to figure out what was going on. I had to go to the doctor for an exam once a month ... every month. I'd go at all sorts of different times of the month. Were there changes? Did it depend on timing?
This went on until my junior or senior year. At that point, one started growing and growing and took up half of my breast. The doctor talked to a specialist in my state and the specialist in Boston. They decided they needed to operate ... take it out. I was pretty upset. This was actually a really hard time for me. I learned what it was to have people look at you like you were dying. I'll never forget that look; I hated it.
Anyway, we scheduled surgery. About two weeks before the surgery, I woke up in the middle of the night. I was stressed and horrified and got up and went into the living room. I turned on the TV and flicked and flicked and found this religious program. I don't even want to say who it was ... I'm pretty sure he was sent to jail for some horrid crime. At any rate, there was this number to call if you needed prayer. So, I called. I think it was like four or five in the morning. I can't quite believe they had a phone bank at that hour, but I got through to this woman.
I told her what was going on. She told me she'd pray with me and pray hard regardless. But, she had a grand
As I've mentioned before, my parents hadn't, so they've said, talked to me about God and religion when I was super little. My mother was not raised in the church. My father went to Sunday school at a United Methodist church but didn't go to church services ... nor did his parents. So, there I was, being raised by two people who didn't go to church and didn't talk with me about God. One day, I was almost badly hurt. My mother lost it, cried and carried on. I said, and this is one of my first memories, "Don't worry, Mommy. The people in the light won't ever let anything hurt me." I remember having this feeling, this knowing, that there were "people" in the light ... but they weren't really people. I felt like they loved me and were watching over me and were protecting me.
My mother flipped. How was I talking about people in the light? Unlike what Hazel's mother would have done ... treated it as an imaginary friend, my mother rushed me to a church. Given the fact that she hadn't been raised in a church, she didn't even know what she was ... Christian ... but what .... She knew my father was United Methodist, sort of, but he didn't want much to do with it. She asked around town, trying to see what the different churches were about. A lot of people with young children were going to a particular church in town, so she took me there.
Between my mentioning the people in the light and going to that church, my mother told me about God. What did she say? Something along the lines of ... God loves us and wants good things for us and wants us to be happy and healthy and good. Okay. I got behind that. That totally made sense to me. Of course, I was only five. But, the idea that there was this God who loved me and wanted to look out for me made a lot of sense, especially given my feeling about the people in the light.
Off we went to church .... It was December. We started in the sanctuary. Then, I joined the children downstairs for Sunday school.
There was a Christmas tree with a cradle and a doll. Huh? The teacher had us all sit down. All of the other children were holding presents. The teacher said it was the baby Jesus' birthday and we were to give the baby presents. Fortunately for me, she said with impatience, she'd brought extra gifts.
Well, I started asking questions. Who was the baby Jesus? My mother had left that out. After that was explained, I asked why she thought the baby doll was the baby Jesus? It was a doll. And, the baby Jesus grew up. So, why were we pretending he was a baby doll? And, if Jesus was in Heaven with God, why did he need us to give him presents? What presents would he need?
Oh, yes, that teacher took quite a liking to me, as you might imagine.
Then, she started calling children up to give their presents to Jesus. She called a boy ... and another boy ... and another boy ... and another boy. You get my point. After she'd called up almost every boy, I asked if she was going to call up one of the girls. She'd called up almost all of the boys, I explained. Didn't she think it would be good and fair to call up one of the girls?
That's when she said, "Oh, Shannon, you see, I called the boys up first for a reason. You see, the baby Jesus loves little boys more than he loves little girls."
No joke. It's at that point that I started arguing with the woman about God and Jesus and the people in the light. And, I told her I knew God and the people in the light loved everyone. At that point, I walked out, stormed up the steps, walked down the aisle, grabbed my mother and told her we were going ... going ... going ... right then. That was pretty out of character. I wasn't one for tantrums. But, I threw one right then and right there. My mother was horrified, but she got up and left with me. I told her what happened and cried my eyes and my heart out. How could anyone say God loved some people more than others? Hey, I'd had no learning or real religious indoctrination at that time. But, I knew in my heart, really knew, that it wasn't right to love some people and not love others ... or to love some people more.
That's when my mother and I sat down and had a conversation about who wrote the Bible ... people ... men ... and we talked, even though I was so little, about what the world was like when the Bible was written and why parts of it dealt with women so poorly. (Yes, parts. I don't believe the words Jesus was said to have spoken or the choices he is said to have made dealt with women poorly. I think the opposite.)
At any rate, I told my mother that I'd never go to Sunday school again. Oh, I meant it. I told her I'd never go back to that church. Not ever. And, I'd never let her make me go to Sunday school. Well, we basically didn't go back to church ... until I hit the 7th grade. At that point, my mother said I HAD to go to confirmation classes. To say that we had HUGE fights over that would be a vast understatement. She had promised me that she'd never make me go to Sunday school again. I considered her, at this point, to be a liar who'd broken her promise. She explained it with a lame excuse. It was different. It was a set of confirmation classes.
She said, while I had to go, that it was up to me whether or not I joined the church at the end of it. In addition, she knew I had serious issues about some of the tenets of Christianity and had from the time I was just knee-high to a tadpole. Why weren't we Jewish? Jesus was a Jew. And ... Why didn't we believe in the Great Spirit, like our Native American ancestors? And, that thing about conversion. I was always big into history and could not and would not believe that people HAD to be converted in order to be saved. No. I thought, from almost the beginning, that all sorts of different people could follow all sorts of different paths to God. I really did. I really still do. Given all of this, my mother approached the pastor and asked if she could work on a special curriculum for our classes. He'd handle the "indoctrination" into the United Methodist faith. She'd bring in or take us to other churches. Yeah, it was quite a feat, but she got him to agree. So, while we learned about the United Methodist church, we also learned about the Catholics and Lutherans and Jews and .... On and on.
Oh, .... Every once in awhile, the pastor would go on about how Christians were the only true believers and, within that, Methodists were the best followers of God. The other kids hated those days. Why? I'd fight with the pastor. I'd ask him to point to the passage in the gospels where Jesus told the people to turn from the Jewish faith and become Christians. I'd ask him to show us where in the Bible it told us to say bad things about Catholics and Baptists and Buddhists. Yeah, those days kind of went down ugly.
Now, in the end, I joined the church. Why? Everyone was doing it. Once I hit my 20's though, it rubbed me wrong. I contacted the church and asked if I could take back my membership/my confirmation. I was told I could but it would be as if I'd never existed within the church. I filled out the paperwork. Further, I checked with the church years later. It truly is as if I'd never been confirmed as a United Methodist.
Since that point, I've considered myself a non-denominational Christian. However, man, do I ever have conflicts sometimes. It's the whole Jewish thing for me. I can't tell you the memories I have of arguing with my mother when I was little ... really little. I totally thought we should be Jewish ... and that Jesus never meant for people to become Christians.
But, I digress.
Why do I believe now? I just keep going back to that "knowing" I had when I was little. That feeling was so strong. Frankly, it's one of the strongest feelings I've ever had ... that I wasn't alone ... that the "people" in the light were always there. As I grew up, there were times when I felt the presence of God. No, I can't prove it scientifically. So, don't go there. I admit it. But, you asked why I believe, Whirlwind, so ....
One time was in a church in Montreal. We went to Montreal on a field trip in high school. We went to all sorts of places, including a church. I don't remember which one. There we were, a bunch of goofy teens, goofing around. We were walking around this church and, all of a sudden, I had this feeling. I can't even describe it adequately. But, I was walking with friends, laughing and smiling, and, all of a sudden, I stopped short. I felt like this ... something ... washed over me ... almost like a wave in the ocean. It felt like perfect happiness and joy and love. Now, given what I've told you about my experiences in churches, etc..., you have to know I wasn't buying into the programing. So, no, I don't think I had this experience due to indoctrination. I don't know why it happened the way it did ... but it did ... and it was as if I was stuck in place. I started to cry. It was this crazy and amazing experience. I felt, in that moment, like I'd come in direct contact with God.
I've had a similar feeling a couple other times. But, that was the strongest time and it's the one the sticks best in my mind.
So, can I point to God ... show you a picture ... come up with a way to test for God's presence? Duh. Obviously, I can't. But, I'm telling you, I've FELT God's presence. I truly have. And, for me, well ... I can believe in things without them being proven to me. The fact that I have a sense of knowing about them ... that I feel them ... is proof ... to me. I don't expect it to be proof to you or anyone. But, it is for me.
Now, there have been other things .... Here's a story. Yes, a quaint personal story that might bore many. But, again, you asked ... so ...
When I was 14, I had a physical and the doctor found these weird lumps in my breast. It was the '80's and this was unheard of at that time. My mother searched and searched for a surgeon who wasn't going to operate at the outset. We found one, finally. As the years passed, we found there were three teens in New England who had the same issue. Our individual doctors were in touch with one another and a specialist in Boston. They were studying us and trying to figure out what was going on. I had to go to the doctor for an exam once a month ... every month. I'd go at all sorts of different times of the month. Were there changes? Did it depend on timing?
This went on until my junior or senior year. At that point, one started growing and growing and took up half of my breast. The doctor talked to a specialist in my state and the specialist in Boston. They decided they needed to operate ... take it out. I was pretty upset. This was actually a really hard time for me. I learned what it was to have people look at you like you were dying. I'll never forget that look; I hated it.
Anyway, we scheduled surgery. About two weeks before the surgery, I woke up in the middle of the night. I was stressed and horrified and got up and went into the living room. I turned on the TV and flicked and flicked and found this religious program. I don't even want to say who it was ... I'm pretty sure he was sent to jail for some horrid crime. At any rate, there was this number to call if you needed prayer. So, I called. I think it was like four or five in the morning. I can't quite believe they had a phone bank at that hour, but I got through to this woman.
I told her what was going on. She told me she'd pray with me and pray hard regardless. But, she had a grand
Ran out of characters ...
She had a granddaughter my age, and she was really, really going to pray hard with me. So, we sat there, via the phone line, and prayed and prayed and prayed. And, I cried. She told me to believe ... believe that the lump was going to shrink and shrink to nothing. She asked if I believed ... and ... in that moment ... I did. She told me to hang up and try to get some sleep and know that it was going to shrink. I'd felt it prior to the call. Large as ever. I felt it as she was saying this ... it almost felt smaller. Through the day, it felt smaller and smaller.
I told my mother, who called the doctor. He didn't believe it. Neither did she, really. They thought I was trying to get out of the surgery. He got me in a couple days later. I thought he was going to fall over. It had shrunk. It wasn't gone yet. But, it shrunk by half. The surgery was off. Over the next few months, it shrunk to nothing.
Now, I know others have asked and have believed and ... nothing happened. I know that. I don't understand it. It breaks my heart. But, this truly did happen to me and for me. It's one of the reasons I believe.
You talked about my saying I'm a woman of faith ... but that I pick and choose what I want to believe from different faiths. Yup. Question. Is that wrong? Why must I be a ... whatever? Why must I pick one thing, Christian, etc... and believe every single thing within that religion? Cherry-picker. Others have mentioned that. I don't know. Why can't someone have an inner knowing and go with that? Why can't I believe in a God that loves people, but also understand that men who weren't perfect wrote the Bible? Why are my choices one of the religions (whole cloth) or atheism? As an aside ...
I'm not embarrassed or cornered. I am quite interested in how people are going to respond, though.
I wonder ... can we share our beliefs and why we believe and respect that ... without judging it? We'll see.
She had a granddaughter my age, and she was really, really going to pray hard with me. So, we sat there, via the phone line, and prayed and prayed and prayed. And, I cried. She told me to believe ... believe that the lump was going to shrink and shrink to nothing. She asked if I believed ... and ... in that moment ... I did. She told me to hang up and try to get some sleep and know that it was going to shrink. I'd felt it prior to the call. Large as ever. I felt it as she was saying this ... it almost felt smaller. Through the day, it felt smaller and smaller.
I told my mother, who called the doctor. He didn't believe it. Neither did she, really. They thought I was trying to get out of the surgery. He got me in a couple days later. I thought he was going to fall over. It had shrunk. It wasn't gone yet. But, it shrunk by half. The surgery was off. Over the next few months, it shrunk to nothing.
Now, I know others have asked and have believed and ... nothing happened. I know that. I don't understand it. It breaks my heart. But, this truly did happen to me and for me. It's one of the reasons I believe.
You talked about my saying I'm a woman of faith ... but that I pick and choose what I want to believe from different faiths. Yup. Question. Is that wrong? Why must I be a ... whatever? Why must I pick one thing, Christian, etc... and believe every single thing within that religion? Cherry-picker. Others have mentioned that. I don't know. Why can't someone have an inner knowing and go with that? Why can't I believe in a God that loves people, but also understand that men who weren't perfect wrote the Bible? Why are my choices one of the religions (whole cloth) or atheism? As an aside ...
I'm not embarrassed or cornered. I am quite interested in how people are going to respond, though.
I wonder ... can we share our beliefs and why we believe and respect that ... without judging it? We'll see.
I have heard stories like yours before and I know that there are inexplicable occurrences that sometimes take place. In fact, I have had such fleeting feelings and used to feel that I had been "zapped by spirit" or had had an epiphany. I've had that feeling of being washed over by some warm presence and it is indescribable. What was it? In time I came to see it as a moment of clarity, and I think that our bodies sometimes undergo change at the cellular level, why, I do not know. And I don't know what to call it. Some believers call it the holy spirit. For me, it is the unknowable, like the Taoists say. It's a universal knowing, and I think it's rare to have that feeling. That's why I don't say I am an atheist, more of an agnostic. But if I had to say that I think there is a creative force in all things, then in order to fit into some kind of category, I'd have to call myself a Pantheist, only because there is no better description for my way of thinking. Nature for me brings me the closest to that rare comfort of the spirit, that and my dog. It's a feeling of gratitude, warmth, contentment and love of life.
But I don't, and can't, believe in the god of Christianity or even Judaism. Or Buddhism. I simply don't think that there exists a god worthy of worship in the way that the church teaches. Nor do I think there's actually a 'presence' out there.
Your kind of believing is more beautiful than any church could give you, and that's all I need to say to you. Thanks for sharing your experience.
Shannon, thats an interesting, and well told story, and my respect for you has increased. You seem to have always stood up and said what you think, and told people when you thought they were wrong. Bravo.I already said what my mothers reaction would have been to me making a statement about the people in the light, so I don't feel the need to address that, but imagine where you'd be now if your mother had decided you needed to see a psychiatrist rather than a priest. However, I wondered, have you ever heard of a fallacy of correlation and causation? Post hoc, ergo propter hoc: "after this, therefore because of this". Its a very common human logic fail. Something happens after something else, and we falsely come to the conclusion that the second thing was caused by the first. Basically, many people have prayed when ill, and its had no effect, so its fallacious to decide that your prayer had an effect, and that it was anything but coincidence that you prayed and then got better, the likelihood is that you would have got better anyway. You're obviously a very lucky person. Tim Minchin explains it better than me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQjqxa...
There are studies into the power of prayer, and so far, no positive effect has been found that is statisically significant when compared with a control group. In fact, when the person being prayed for has known they were being prayed for, it was found that they became worse in a statisically significant way, due to the stress caused by the expectation to perform. There is a thread on this elsewhere.
I'm not saying that the prayer didn't help you, but I'd say, based on the evidence available to us, that it was due to the same placebo effect giving someone a sugar pill causes. Your body healed itself, and to me, thats far more amazing and awe inspiring than the idea that a unknown being did anything to effect it. You also didn't mention if you were receiving any other therapeutic treatment or taking medication at the time either.
That feeling of something washing over you thtyou described, I get that all the time, and I know that its a moment of clarity, its a moment when my mind suddenly stops being noisy and there is a moment of peace and tranquility. But thats just that my mind has stopped talking for a moment. Also, why do you attribute the feeling that you felt in the church with your friends to being in church, and not to being with your friends? Could it not have been that you were just happy because you were surrounded by people you enjoyed being with, that you were having a good time, and thats the moment you happened to have the epiphany of comradary with them, which would feel a lot like a wave of love and happiness? Theres another correlation/causation fallacy, cum hoc ergo propter hoc, which means "with this, therefore because of this". Two events occur at the same time, so we assume that one is due to the other, to the exclusion of any other explanation which would take into account all that was present etc etc.
I understand that you're happy in your faith, and thats great, and I can understand why you've got your faith. I think its great that you've found a way of believing that makes you happy and that you're comfortable with, and without anyone telling you what to believe. Its great that you have proof for you, sadly, that is not enough for me. This has been a really interesting conversation by the way, and I did really enjoy reading your story, it made me feel warm and fuzzy, and like there really is something, but then I realise thats just because it was a very well written emotional reveal, like many books and poems out there. Thats intended as a compliment, it really was very well written.
Hazel wrote: "Tim Minchin explains it better than me:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQjqxayxw..."
This type of behavior is peculiar not only to religious people. I remember from some psychology book I've read or maybe some TTC lectures an example of a research that I think US Army commissioned. The army authorities were alarmed by a growing number of motorbike accidents involving GIs and wanted to find out what the prevailing causes were. Somehow people that did the research mistook cause for correlation and therefore their conclusion was that the prevailing cause of accidents were tattoos.
A joke (maybe not directly related, but I think it fits). It's known in Poland but maybe you haven't heard it yet:
"A small Polish town in a valley was threatened by imminent fooding so the authorities decided to evacuate the inhabitants. A patrol car arrived at the local parish but the priest refused to go: "I pray to God. I know he shall not allow me to come to harm!" - he said.
The high water came. The parish was flooded. The priest had to shelter on the roof of the church. A zodiac approached him but he refused to leave his church - "I pray to God. I know he shall not allow me to come to harm!"
The water got much higher. Only the top of the bell tower still stuck out of it with the priest desperately grasping the cross on the top. A rescue chopper flew in and dropped a rope ladder. The priest still refused to go: "I pray to God. I know he shall not allow me to come to harm!"
Finally the water went up even further and the poor priest drowned. He stood before the God almighty and said: "God! How could you not save me? I prayed to you every day! I sacrificed all my life to you!"
Got gave him and angry look: "You moron! Three times I sent people out for you!"
yes, I have heard that one before :DAnd yes, that behaviour is not perticular to just religious people, hence why I put that it was a common human logic fail.
http://youtu.be/vRJUvFG8gbEOne of my favorite tv shows is The Big Bang Theory. They constantly come out with these "little profundities". :-)
Unlike George who couldn't had cared less I do hope no one will be offended by this bit.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ8hef...
This guy never failed to crack me up.
George Carlin was brilliant, so sad he's no longer here. I sort of grew up with this guy on the scene. :-) And then there's this one:
http://youtu.be/MeSSwKffj9o
Whirlwind wrote: "http://youtu.be/vRJUvFG8gbEOne of my favorite tv shows is The Big Bang Theory. They constantly come out with these "little profundities". :-)"
Yes, that's true!
There can never be a science without religion, and there can never be a religion without science. Either choose both, or don't choose at all!!
Wow, what an original thought, I hadn't considered it like that at all. Thanks.
... and we cannot LIVE without a papal monarchy, without which much money, property, real estate, art, literature, archival materials, and indeed history's secrets, might fall into the hands of the mindless general population. Can't have THAT! If people were deprived of their hideously distasteful plaster statues and an opportunity to kiss a ring...not for me, thanks...my goodness, what would the little pawns do?
Lorenzo wrote: "The wrote: "There can never be a science without religion, and there can never be a religion without science. Either choose both, or don't choose at all!!"
The sarcastic responses are well deser..."
describe how the world would operate without morality.
and tell me where morality comes from
Morality doesn't come from religion, Tina. Morality is rational, comes from our minds and the necessity of survival. I posted about this before, interestingly it was a response to one of your claims. See message #1272, please.
Someone please just tell me what you think Christianity is
Christianity is the belief in God and is based on Christ's teachings, it could share values and morals but it didn't invent them.
Nícia wrote: "Christianity is the belief in God and is based on Christ's teachings, it could share values and morals but it didn't invent them."okay i went back and read it. Where do you suppose this unconscious rational mind come from?
Zakaria wrote: "Christianity is an extension of Judaism, Just like Islam being the extension of Christianity."how is Islam an extension of Christianity?
Lorenzo wrote: "Tina wrote: "Lorenzo wrote: "The wrote: "There can never be a science without religion, and there can never be a religion without science. Either choose both, or don't choose at all!!"
The sarca..."
Wait do you believe the world doesn't need morality?
Tina wrote: "Zakaria wrote: "Christianity is an extension of Judaism, Just like Islam being the extension of Christianity."how is Islam an extension of Christianity?"
Judaism, christianity and islam are all religions of the abrahamic god, they worship the same god, but with a different name, and the only real difference is the prophet they choose to hold over and above the others, Judaism = Abraham,. Christianity = Jesus, Islam = Mohammed. All the same god though. Judaism came first, and christianity developed next, and finally, Islam developed from what had come before.
As for does the world need morality. No it doesn't, most of the world is completely uninterested (or unable to be interested) in your personal feelings. People however, do need morals, they're what hold our communities together, and religion took some of those morals that held communities together and intergrated them into their teachings... then they also added that slavery, genocide, incest and rape were acceptable.
Surely not from God! And Why do you say it's unconscious? Try imagine where morality originates in yourself. When you have a dilemma what do you do?
Is never unconscious because when you do a good action, people will congrats you, when you do a bad action people will point you their finger. That's how morality forms inside of you. And you do feel a heavy conscious when you do a really bad thing, don't you?
But back to the origins: first, morality is intuitive and emotional, and then it is a social skill. Morality is nothing more than a way of conduct, why would we need a higher power to say to us what we should or not do? We have brains, we can see that from ourselves.
And IF morality came from the words of God, it wouldn't be subjective and it wouldn't change from culture to culture. Or we wouldn't have dilemmas to resolve, like abortion, euthanasia and etcetera.
Plus, there are authors that wrote about morality even after religion existed, well at least monotheistic ones. An example is The Maxims of Ptahhotep, which is 4 hundred years old and written by an educated men, not a priest. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Maxi...
When I get to know more about this, I'll give you more points to discuss.
Is never unconscious because when you do a good action, people will congrats you, when you do a bad action people will point you their finger. That's how morality forms inside of you. And you do feel a heavy conscious when you do a really bad thing, don't you?
But back to the origins: first, morality is intuitive and emotional, and then it is a social skill. Morality is nothing more than a way of conduct, why would we need a higher power to say to us what we should or not do? We have brains, we can see that from ourselves.
And IF morality came from the words of God, it wouldn't be subjective and it wouldn't change from culture to culture. Or we wouldn't have dilemmas to resolve, like abortion, euthanasia and etcetera.
Plus, there are authors that wrote about morality even after religion existed, well at least monotheistic ones. An example is The Maxims of Ptahhotep, which is 4 hundred years old and written by an educated men, not a priest. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Maxi...
When I get to know more about this, I'll give you more points to discuss.
Tina wrote: "Nícia wrote: "Christianity is the belief in God and is based on Christ's teachings, it could share values and morals but it didn't invent them."okay i went back and read it. Where do you suppose ..."
Alpha and beta brainwaves are electrical and magnetic fields within the brain that generate all our higher thought. They are there because they evolved to be there.
Zakaria, revealed by whom?
Hazel wrote: "Tina wrote: "Zakaria wrote: "Christianity is an extension of Judaism, Just like Islam being the extension of Christianity."how is Islam an extension of Christianity?"
Judaism, christianity and i..."
you really believe Christians think slavery, genocide, incest and rape are acceptable?
i know you'll say they happened in the old testament but the new testament had a key difference--Jesus fulfilled all the prophesies and set up a new belief-Christianity. I'm not saying it made the Old testament obsolete either, "What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator" Galatians 3:19
The law was changed after Jesus died and rose again.
Let me ask you something, do you believe Jesus existed?
Zakaria wrote: "The Abrahamic religions are the only monotheistic religions existing in the globe. They believe in the same God, they partially believe in the same prophets , and the chronological order of these r..."The Qur'an is not part of the Holy Bible. And the key difference between all three, is that Christianity's savior died and ROSE AGAIN. Death did not defeat him! That is proof He is God.
Tina, first, I'm reasonably sure that Jesus is an amalgamation of older myths, like those of Mithras, as well as the dozen or so other messiahs wandering around at about the time he was said to be about.As for the law changing, please read Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17)
or these others:
"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17)
“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19)
Jesus himself stated that the laws of the old testament still applies. He even chastises people for breaking the laws:
Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10)
“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19)
...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35
Now, no, I don't think that christians (for the most part, you do get the occasional nutjob, I'm sure you'll agree) believe that slavery, genocide, incest and rape are acceptable. But thats because their morals are not drawn from scripture, but from an innate knowledge of what is right or wrong. Morality of individual christians, and the majority of people is far better than that laid out by the bible, or any other monotheistic holy book. I know I'm more moral than the abrahamic god as he is portrayed.
Zakaria wrote: "Well, I am not addressing this to atheists :)"you're posting on a thread in an atheists and sceptics group. Who else, in this forum, would you be addressing yourself to?
Nícia wrote: "Surely not from God! And Why do you say it's unconscious? Try imagine where morality originates in yourself. When you have a dilemma what do you do?Is never unconscious because when you do a good..."
I only said unconscious because that's the word you used on the older post, 1272.
Also, you said why do we have shifts in culture of morality...because some accept it as right by God and others reject the idea! Just how we're all "butting heads" about the existence of God! Do you mean that if the morality is in us was of God we would all agree? I'm not saying we all have a right godly morality within us and we should all agree together, I'm saying that judgement is based on the existence of God and without it there is something we can judge right or wrong by.
That "gut feeling" has to be something...
why?? why does that gut feeling have to be something? Especially as about 50% of the time (the basic percentage for something occuring through chance) the gut feeling is wrong?The inability to understand why or how something is the way it is, is not license to apply a supernatural origin. In the words of Neil Degrasse Tyson, if you don't know, thats where your conversation should stop, you shouldn't go on to say "but it could be this". Don't go from a statement of abject ignorance straight to a statement of abject certainty. We don't know where many things come from, but one day we will, and if it turns out to be one, or several of the thousands of deities that have ever been worshipped I'll bemore than happy to admit I was wrong in my rejection of the god hypothesis, can you say the same about your belief in god if they show in your lifetime that there is no god?
Zakaria wrote: "Well, I did not know that. I am sorry."Actually, no, I apologise, most of the threads I post in are in an atheist and skeptics group, and I had a brain fail, this one isn't.
Hazel wrote: "Tina, first, I'm reasonably sure that Jesus is an amalgamation of older myths, like those of Mithras, as well as the dozen or so other messiahs wandering around at about the time he was said to be ..."Jesus fulfilled the law!! All those verses you quoted are backing up my belief that Jesus did not say "end to the old testament!" He is the fulfilling it !
what are you talking about,with Mark 7:10. Please read from the beginning of the chapter and through to the end. You are deliberately taking it out of context to support your point when in actuality it supports my point. Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees (Jews) about the law, telling them that it is not the outer traditions and rituals it is about the heart!
I'll get back to you about a verse further supporting what I was saying about the law of the old testament.
And I'm glad you don't think Christians think genocide rape slavery and incest are right, and if a Christian claims that he does (a nutjob) then he is not a Christian.
Zakaria wrote: "Cause that was not attributed to him until the first council of Nicaea in "325". "Yup, I love when people know their history. Even better is that it was Emperor Constantine who deified Jesus, and he was a pagan at the time, what with him not converting to Christianity until he was on his deathbed.
Tina wrote: "And I'm glad you don't think Christians think genocide rape slavery and incest are right, and if a Christian claims that he does (a nutjob) then he is not a Christian. "As an aside, can we avoid the no true scotsman fallacies please? Of course they're a christian, they would no doubt say the same about anyone who doesn't follow the old laws to the letter, in the eyes of the extremists, you're no true christian, it goes both ways, and its fallacious.
Now, Jesus specifically says that until the world and heaven are ended, the laws still apply. I don't know about heaven, but the world is definitely still here.
Hazel wrote: "why?? why does that gut feeling have to be something? Especially as about 50% of the time (the basic percentage for something occuring through chance) the gut feeling is wrong?The inability to un..."
I think it's safe to say that no matter how I try and convince you, or anyone of God and his Son and Savior Jesus Christ, and His ultimate holy perfect sarifice to save us all of our sins, and his miraculous resurrection, there is only a point where I can go.
I do not deny that it is majorly faith which causes me to live, to keep carrying on. Faith in a Savior I can not see with my own eyes, but feel with my spirit.
I would never stop believing Jesus Christ, no matter how many people "prove" the absence of God.
The fact that you admit you may abandon your beliefs says something. Maybe you are more open minded than I thought.
Evidence is what is important, and if someone can provide evidence of the existence of any deity, then I will spin on a sixpence, as the evidence is what is important. And the evidence would have to be non-biblical, and non-anecdotal. Provide a non-biblical contemporary account of Jesus's life, and I'll accept he was probably real, show me proof that god exists, and I'll accept that he/she/it is possibly real - I'd expect the proof to be repeatable though, repetition and reliability of results is very important.If you're happy in your faith, thats great, I hope you have a long and happy life. There's a lot of reading to be done, afterall.
No-one has proved that god exists. Science is not out to prove that god doesn't exist, it is out to understand how the universe works. And it has continuously shown that a god is not needed for the universe to be here.The burden of proof lies with the people making the claim, it is the place of people claiming that god exists to prove that it is so. And thus far, its not been done. Without proof to back up a claim, the rational thing to do is reject the claim, with the proviso that the situation can be revised on the production of evidence, if that evidence is shown to be reliable.
Scientists spot the first gas of the universe:http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow...
Abiogenesis explained simply:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDd...
I don't think its a joke that you believe in god, in fact I think there's nothing more serious. Its what you base your very identity on. However, there is NO EVIDENCE for any deity. And may I stress I say any deity, not Allah, not Yahweh, but any deity. There have been thousands of deities worshipped throughout history, why is it that the one you follow is the one you're so certain is real? Why not Zeus, or Thor, or Cernunnos? Why not Mithras? Why not Juno? I can list hundreds of these. Is it because you reject the idea they exist? If so on what grounds? And if you can answer that, it should tell you why I reject the abrahamic god as well as all these others."The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also" Mark Twain
Its not a mistake to expect that someone provide evidence for something that they assert. Its rational to do so.
A coupel of other intelligent men have said some important things too (and we have proof that these people said these things, the same cannot be said for anything attributed to jesus or mohammed or abraham):
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" Carl Sagan
'That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.' Christopher Hitchens.
I hasten to add, all the things you claimed weren't reliable, they have evidence for them.
What on earth does science know about the universe? Its not a lot, considering the universe is potentially infinite, and we can only observe just short of 14billions light years of it. But its still one hell of a lot more than can be found in a holy book. Go and actually read some scientific texts (I'd recommend Carl Sagen and Richard Dawkins), you'd soon realise that your assertions are based in your ignorance, not in that of the human race.
Science makes mistakes? I'd like an example of this please, just so I can know where you're coming from with this assertion.
madam, would be more appropriate than sir.I'm not on a quest for evidence. I simply ask those who make an assertion, any assertion, to back it up with real evidence.
That site claims that Wallace was the co-author of The Origin of Species. Not true in any way. I will continue to read what it says though.
Actually, no I won't. That article is so laughably wrong, and biased (the very thing that its claiming that scientists are), that its painful to read.
Is not by believing in God that the world is presented to us in an astonishing way. I'm an atheist and I'm constantly amazed by this world. And certainly there are a lot of religious people that doesn't feel like that.
I also recommend to read some of Gaarder's work, Sophie's World most exactly. It talks about god in a very unique way. But you can read his other books as well, he's a marvellous writer.
I also recommend to read some of Gaarder's work, Sophie's World most exactly. It talks about god in a very unique way. But you can read his other books as well, he's a marvellous writer.
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
The Devil's Collection: A Cynic's Dictionary (other topics)
Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties (other topics)
God Hates You, Hate Him Back: Making Sense of the Bible (other topics)
The New Money System: When Your Money Fails (other topics)
More...
Wendy Joyce (other topics)
Stephen King (other topics)
Wendy Joyce (other topics)
Wendy Joyce (other topics)
More...
Books mentioned in this topic
Vector Calculus (other topics)The Devil's Collection: A Cynic's Dictionary (other topics)
Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties (other topics)
God Hates You, Hate Him Back: Making Sense of the Bible (other topics)
The New Money System: When Your Money Fails (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Ray Kurzweil (other topics)Wendy Joyce (other topics)
Stephen King (other topics)
Wendy Joyce (other topics)
Wendy Joyce (other topics)
More...
I for one have not lost sight of the original question, and I can't agree with one word that you said before. I'm sitting here trying to see exactly what your point really was. There obviously ARE two sides here: science and religion, and I thought it was a given that people would be adamant about whichever side they're on because to waiver would indicate weak resolve and NOT the strength of conviction...which is what I feel, and I'm absolutely solid on that.
You said, “My point has always been that people are different. Perhaps, in the year 2011, we should, I don't know, consider for two seconds accepting that and allowing for those differences ... without feeling the need to tell people they're wrong, they're stupid, they're misinformed, they're ...”
Indeed. In the year 2011, the human race in my humble yet educated view, should know better than to keep on turning to the supernatural to solve their problems any more than they should keep going to their local fortune-teller. As humans, we have the ability to work out with reason, all of our problems. Of course we humans respect one another for each others' beliefs in whatever area, but we do have free speech, and this allows us to openly hammer out our disagreements and voice our opinions—the precise reason that philosophers and liberal, democratic thinkers see as the ONLY way to reveal the truth—-hear all sides and never close your mind. I refer you to the great philosophic work On Liberty, by John Stuart Mill.
I can only speak for myself and so I will say to you that not for one moment have I thought that I could “convert” someone to not believing in whatever on earth they like. What I greatly desire is to make people THINK, study, learn the history of their religion from a non-religious perspective, take a look at their religion from others' eyes, and not through their pastor, or the bible. Think outside that old proverbial BOX! Dig, explore, and open your eyes. Turn it upside down and examine religion with fresh eyes. No, not mine, but from the scholars who dare to speak out boldly and critique ancient, outdated beliefs.
Dare to pick up Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins, or even the admirable John Shelby Spong.
How come we haven’t had a “defender of the faith” come forth and stick to it, with a clear and convincing argument in favor of religion? Because there is not much that CAN be said to defend it. (Personally I think it would get embarrassing to keep defending my beliefs when I have no way of proving why I follow something I can't even explain.)
I mean, here we are putting our thoughts out there, hoping for a delicious argument. I sincerely invite anyone to come along and try to convince me that I should think twice that maybe there really IS a god after all. I’d highly respect them if they did. Until then, I will be waiting.