Angels & Demons
discussion
Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion?
Danny wrote: "Travis wrote: "cHriS wrote: "much like sciences..."My question was about what you call science rules? You said "much like sciences"."
If for example one young person joins a religion and another takes up science they will both learn the 'rules' a principle or regulation governing conduct, action, procedure, arrangement of their chosen path.
Until science is able to know all the answers, a God cannot be ruled out as a possible answer.
Interesting news came out this week on the Big Bang, does that move us closer to the answer?
Maybe not but it is a refreshing thought! Thanks Ken!
Ken wrote: "Interesting news came out this week on the Big Bang, does that move us closer to the answer?"Since the big picture is really extremely (I must say infinitely) big, it'll take an "eternity" to understand it all. But it's interesting none the less. The most interesting news of all these days are about the quantum theory (parallel worlds and so on). Our little brains can't envisioned the entirety of our own world. But I've seen no god so far and no need for one either.
Well I can agree that our world is unbelievably complex and I do work in science ....I still have a belief in God and as much as I respect your belief there isn't one those who do believe deserve the same. After all, that is the sweetness of our freedoms. But the differences certainly create good debate...;
Ken wrote: "Interesting news came out this week on the Big Bang, does that move us closer to the answer?"Every discover or small answer leads us a step closer to 'THE' answer.
Just that there are a lot of steps.
Yes...there are.....
Travis wrote: "I'm an atheist, so everything in the whole wide world is enough. We've won the cosmic lottery. To want more than that seems kind of greedy and ungrateful.For me, religion was mankind's security b..."
I agree with you.Well put!
Colleen said: "Wow......religion is not the only thing that has rules...society has a set of rules...and on and on!"Yes, society has rules, or laws - and if they are broken by a member of society, they are punished.
The big difference with rules in religious organizations (most of them) - is that when a member breaks a rule/sins - they are not excommunicated or shunned - they are ignored, saying "God understands in their case" or "nobody's perfect".
Or, the church leaders just get together and vote to change the rules to be more lenient, or not exist at all. If no one is following a rule anyway, hey, why not just get rid of the rule, rather than confronting the offender - gotta keep up that church membership (and donations)...
That is why people don't even worry about obeying the rules of their religion - there is no accountability if they don't.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the Big Bang to fool us all into thinking there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster...Beware of the Hot Tomato Sauce of Hell all ye non-believers...
Jamnjazzz wrote: "The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the Big Bang to fool us all into thinking there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster...Beware of the Hot Tomato Sauce of Hell all ye non-believers..."
LOL - that's about right!
Maria wrote: "Colleen said: "Wow......religion is not the only thing that has rules...society has a set of rules...and on and on!"Yes, society has rules, or laws - and if they are broken by a member of society..."
My other big problem with religion: cherry picking the 'Word of God'.
don't tell me I have to follow your rules when you don't actually follow your own rules.
Or if you get to decide which of the words of god he really meant, why can't I do the same thing...?
Hi Travis!Same here. It's an all or nothing kind of thing - so for me, right now, that means it's "nothing"!
No question - get rid of religion.
Rob wrote: "No question - get rid of religion."I agree. If people individually want to believe in a higher power and praise him/her/it in their own personal way, that's fine. As long as they don't bother me with it. It's the organizations that are lacking - just because we get rid of religion doesn't mean we get rid of faith and belief - inside a person.
Maria, I totally agree.
Without religion, duh. Read Philip K. Dick's wonderful "Eye in the Sky" for an accurate account of what a world without science would be like.
So, creationists are complaining, because they want to be given time on episodes of 'Cosmos' to present a rebuttal...Sure, and after the sermon, I want to the minister to go, "and now, here's Professor Wagstaff, to present the opposing argument."
If you want the opposing view on science, it's not like there are no outlets to get that viewpoint. All you have to do is get up early on sunday.
Travis wrote: "So, creationists are complaining, because they want to be given time on episodes of 'Cosmos' to present a rebuttal...Sure, and after the sermon, I want to the minister to go, "and now, here's Pro..."
What could they say anyway except to quote the bible? And we already know all of their "arguments" (if we may call them that).
Danny wrote: "Travis wrote: "So, creationists are complaining, because they want to be given time on episodes of 'Cosmos' to present a rebuttal...Sure, and after the sermon, I want to the minister to go, "and ..."
It's just the idea that creationists feel they are so marginalized and have no other option, but to be given time on 'Cosmos' to get their views out there that amazes me.
Travis wrote: "Danny wrote: "Travis wrote: "So, creationists are complaining, because they want to be given time on episodes of 'Cosmos' to present a rebuttal...Sure, and after the sermon, I want to the ministe..."
OK, I suggest they be added to the Darwin awards, once we shoot them all into outer space!
Marginalized? Hell (catch that, huh, the "Hell" reference? LOL), they build churches, proselytize at people who have absolutely no interest in what they are ranting about, twist and turn facts to fit their requirements, and generally make life miserable for a large part of the world (like building churches in countries where their OWN religion is thousands of years older than Christianity, and then being SURPRISED when the natives kill off the missionaries!)And why should I care for any creation that relies on FEAR instead of love?
,
Benja wrote: "Without religion, duh. Read Philip K. Dick's wonderful "Eye in the Sky" for an accurate account of what a world without science would be like."Sigh. Yet ANOTHER book added to my TBR pile! Oh - maybe you can answer this "brain teaser" that I have been suffering from?
There is a sci-fi (or maybe fantasy?) book where there is a comment about the fact that the christian god doesn't pay any attention to the Earth any longer because he is too busy staring into a mirror because all the worshiping has made him so vain.
Does anyone know what this book is, or is this something my warped brain made up for the fun of it? It has to be an older book, this has popped up in the rats nest I call a brain over many years. . .
So, I Read This Book Today wrote: "Benja wrote: "Without religion, duh. Read Philip K. Dick's wonderful "Eye in the Sky" for an accurate account of what a world without science would be like."Sigh. Yet ANOTHER book added to my TBR..."
It does sound like a scene from Piers Anthony's 'Incarnations of immortality' series.
Travis wrote: "So, I Read This Book Today wrote: "Benja wrote: "Without religion, duh. Read Philip K. Dick's wonderful "Eye in the Sky" for an accurate account of what a world without science would be like."Sig..."
Could be. I read those long ago and far away. Will have to check it out! Thank you. This has been a "brain itch" for years....
Jean wrote: "Have you ever noticed that even babies have distinct personalities? How is this explained scientifically? I ask this with no guile."Well thats partly true... and actually science says quite a bit about personality types. Myers Briggs has identified 16 basic "types" of personality with of course overlap... And BTW, you might want to educate yourself a bit beyond "big bang". Just remember there is zero evidence of a supreme being and millions of facts support science. so it seems pretty simple... zero vs millions... :/
Jean wrote: "Kristal - Are you kidding? Do you really think that all people, if left to their own devices, would just be innocent and pure? That evil would just disappear because religion wouldn't be there to..."No one is innocent or pure! What do those words even mean? pure in whose opinion? But the important fact to remember is what you're I THINK trying to say... You seem to assume some religion is a requirement for morality... Going by the amazing immorality followers of many religions have shown, and of course simple common sense says thats just not true...
Religion is an organized irrational belief in a myth... science is fact... seems simple which one to toss. A belief in these told and rehashed stories... Like the Jesus story, has nothing to do with morality. These same believers will vote to keep some members of our society from having the same rights THEY have and want. For instance marriage. gay rights, equal treatment for all and these same people will use their "religion" to excuse this behavior... Religion is NOT required for love, respect, trust, empathy, kindness, or any of the other things we should be doing for each other.
I think this is an easy question. Human society cannot exist without science even if you strip it down to it's most basic and fundamental essence. Religion on the other hand is completely optional. There's also the misconception that religion is the same thing as faith, or spirituality. It isn't. Religion is man made and exists independently of the belief in a higher power. This world would be a much better place without religion.
Fin wrote: "Religion is man made and exists independently of the belief in a higher power...."True! I'm sure that there is people participating to this thread who believe in a "higher power" as you put it, but would gladly do without religion.
During the Dark Middle Ages humankind witnessed what a world of religion and no science has brought: stagnation, degradation... no good things there. After Renaissance and Enlightenment, a world with both science and religion brought two World Wars and more destruction and killing than ever before. Who knows what a world without religion would bring? Universal peace or annihilation?We got to understand that both try to explain the same thing using different ways: one is fact - science, the other is symbol - religion. The two should rather help each other.
When science runs out of ideas there is always god :)
religion answers our uncertainties, while science measures them.so it all depends on what you want: answers or measures :-)
Michael wrote: "Religion is an organized irrational belief in a myth... science is fact... seems simple which one to toss. A belief in these told and rehashed stories... Like the Jesus story, has nothing to do wi..."Brilliant. And I very much agree!
E.E. wrote: "religion answers our uncertainties, while science measures them.so it all depends on what you want: answers or measures :-)"
But the thing is - answers that are false are no answers at all. . .
E.E. wrote: "religion answers our uncertainties, while science measures them.so it all depends on what you want: answers or measures :-)"
actually, no.
Science discovers answers and then measures them to see if they are true.
religion provides one answer: 'Because god said so.' and then gets really testy if you try to measure that.
Travis wrote: "E.E. wrote: "religion answers our uncertainties, while science measures them.so it all depends on what you want: answers or measures :-)"
actually, no.
Science discovers answers and then measure..."
Except they aren't answers if they turned out not to be true, right? That's why we call them theories, not answers. And I love that of science. I love that it always leaves room for doubt and hence for growth. Now, if only religion would also learn to leave room for some doubt, this would be such a better world ...
SeRRo said: "We got to understand that both try to explain the same thing using different ways:"This just isn't true. Religion is not trying to explain anything. It is a power based social structure bent on perpetuating it's power and control.
Science (although having some agendas) is seeking the true nature of the universe and our place in it.
Maxime wrote: "Easy, without religion. I can understand that people put faith in their god. But look at the world! It oly brings war and death. If there really is a god, he would be ashamed about what his religio..."I couldn't agree more, Maxime!!!
Rob wrote: "SeRRo said: "We got to understand that both try to explain the same thing using different ways:"This just isn't true. Religion is not trying to explain anything. It is a power based social struc..."
I agree. I find it fascinating that the tales and myths of "other" belief systems are considered nothing more than superstition when a person follows a certain belief system that is different from the one a person happens to follow. I.e., religions other than the "big three" are considered 'superstitions" while if you follow anything other than one of the 3, it is considered by followers to be "truth". Bah. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Druids, ad nauseum, considered THEIR religions to be "truth" as well - and religions far older even than these had their own truths - before they were wiped out or absorbed (Christmas instead of the Winter Equinox, etc.) by the "next big thing" in religion.
Give me science and the scientific method any day! Yep, there was indeed a "Great Flood" - but there were MANY "Great Floods" as different areas of the Middle East and Europe were washed away in glacial melt periods. Observation, hypothesis, prediction, experimentation, conclusion. The scientific method says it all.
Rob wrote: "SeRRo said: "We got to understand that both try to explain the same thing using different ways:"This just isn't true. Religion is not trying to explain anything. It is a power based social struc..."
I do agree with what you say Rob, but only if you change the word "religion" with the word "church". The institution of the Church. Religion tries to explain our existence, the roots of life and those of the Universe. However, unlike science, it does so in a very archaic way by the use of symbols. And not only Christianity, but also Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism - they all do.
SeRRo - I'm still not sure that's right. I accept the distinction between Church and Religion, but the various religions don't try to explain their belief systems or their understanding of existence. They state that they are correct.Science on the other hand says that we believe this is what happened/happens and then through a strict peer review system tries to prove it isn't so.
When was the last time the pope tried to demonstarte that his religion was true through a peer review? Or any other means he has at his disposal. I know, it's not really possible, and for me that's where all this falls down.
I watched a pretty stupid movie yesterday. It was a comic science fiction road film called Paul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_%28...).One guy at the end of the movie said "God bless you" to Paul, the extraterrestrial. Paul answered, "If it makes you happy".
It remembered me mom and dad, who sometimes told me that they would pray for me when I felt bad for some reason. They knew that I don't believe in all that sh*t. But I loved them to tell me that because I knew that they wished me a good life.
So, as long as people live and let other live, I'm o.k. with that. It's when people kill each others because they don't believe the same thing that I want all religions to be ended.
Danny wrote: "I watched a pretty stupid movie yesterday. It was a comic science fiction road film called Paul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_%28...).One guy at the end of the movie said "God bless you" ..."
OK, sending you a big hug because you hit the nail on the head. If it makes you happy . . .
Rob wrote: "SeRRo - I'm still not sure that's right. I accept the distinction between Church and Religion, but the various religions don't try to explain their belief systems or their understanding of existenc..."Now, I'm trying to figure out who the pope would send his stuff to in order to have a 'peer review'.
He's the pope! Who counts as his peers?
Well, catholics think he is the next thing to god (as the Egyptians thought their king was the next thing to god, etc..) so I would suppose that it would have to be the godhead? So, when that being steps forward, well, the pope could ask for a peer review, eh?
I'd live in a world of science because then and there, religion will be invented.
Kyong wrote: "I'd live in a world of science because then and there, religion will be invented."Why would that happen? Religion is by definition superstition. Science is by definition NOT superstition.
Religions are moral or psychological crutches to help walking people who can't do it on their own.
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"To not be afraid of solar eclipses", but they invented Hell. It's not exactly a way to help people to not be afraid, is it?