Angels & Demons
discussion
Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion?
But the wild animals in the world somehow survive and prosper without religion, In fact have been around and surviving millions of years longer than the only specie who has invented religion...
Raghav wrote: "A world without religion is like lemon juice without a bit of salt,its bound to be sour.On the other hand,a world without science is like juice without the lemon itself.
Combined,they give you the..."
I didn't know ppl put salt in lemon juice before:) (sorry I'm going off topic.)
Xdyj wrote: "Raghav wrote: "A world without religion is like lemon juice without a bit of salt,its bound to be sour.On the other hand,a world without science is like juice without the lemon itself.
Combined,th..."
Yeah, the salt and lemon thing puzzled me too.
Ken wrote: "But the wild animals in the world somehow survive and prosper without religion, In fact have been around and surviving millions of years longer than the only specie who has invented religion..."Is odd that god created all creatures, but we are the only ones he makes worship him and earn his love.
Do the other animals feel bad they are neglected or relieved that they are left alone?
My cat looks at me with worship in her eyes when I'm opening a can of tuna.
Steven wrote: "Elaine wrote: "My cat looks at me with worship in her eyes when I'm opening a can of tuna."I'm sure that is very true."
More likely, it's the look of a deity approving of her followers offering.
Cats have religion. They think they are the gods.
Id rather go without religion if i had to choose. At the start of both, it was to explain and give meaning to how the world works and why, something that ppl need to understand.Unfortunately, with both as with anything left to people can be used for distruction weather its weapons created by science and SOME of the wars started by religion.
Science continues to find cures and treatments that allow us to live longer healthier lives. Religion does do good for those in need but can be done without it.
Bottom line, if you're brought up with good morals and have a good capacity for it, you don't need religion, It's individual.
Dan Brown's book are fictional stories and just that, STORIES. I enjoyed them. If you didn't like them, just wasn't your taste. Too many ppl took them as fact and too much to heart as if it was the Bible.
Animals don't kill for sportAnimals don't go to war
Animals are moral
Animals don't have religion
Humans on the other hand.....
Ken wrote: "Animals don't kill for sportAnimals don't go to war
Animals are moral
Animals don't have religion
Humans on the other hand....."
Exactly!
My little Yorke kills mice for sport. He does not eat them so it must be for sport than survival.I have seen a group of birds (wrens) attack a hawk in mid flight, the wrens win the war.
As for religion among animals, probably right.
Neither one is not for the sake of boredom or the sake of somethinng to do or just want or belief.Instinct to protect your home or territory (or nest) is ingrained regardless of a group of wrens or the family pet. They dont do it for sport. Humans do and their supposed to be smart enough to know better and control their actions.
Jamie wrote: "Instinct to protect your home or territory (or nest) is ingrained regardless of a group of wrens or the family pet."Sounds like a good reason for us human animals to go to war to protect my home or territory :)
And my little Yorkie kills mice with a wild happy Look on his face of pure joy.
Trees don't go to war either.Animals eat each other, we tend not to eat each other.
Animals don't have science.
Chris, I like your use of the word tend.
Elaine wrote: "Chris, I like your use of the word tend."I was going to say 'we don't' but someone would say they do. :)
Animals are amoral.We, the human animal, eat animals, just usually not each other. Long pork recipes are just so hard to find.
Chimpanzee go to war with other groups and kill for reasons other than food.
Dolphins, one example, will kill to protect their young, but not for additional food as some species who will kill to protect their young.
One animal we don't think about being killers but their are numerous incidents throughout history of them killing people are horses. Wild horses and some even domesticated have taken to killing with intent and not just by be belligerent and scared.
The Greeks noted this early in the Hellene era. Some war horses were selected from offspring of mankillers for their vicious behavior and temperament.
I won't burden non-human animals with any religious motive or behavior. We humans get that dubious one all to ourselves.
Lol, notice how these domesticated animals like "war"horses are human trained.
A great question, and not an easy one to answer. First I hate religion; I find it more of an institution than a belief. However I am extremely Spiritual and believe in a power greater than myself. I also believe that science is tied to this same greater power. It is possible that they can't be separated. I could live in a world without some of the inventions provided by science, but my soul would be empty without the connection I have to the universe. So is that Science or Spirituality?
Elizabeth wrote: ......but my soul would be empty without the connection I have to the universe. So is that Science or Spirituality? ."
Romance maybe.
Why would one really need to choose?
cHriS wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: ......but my soul would be empty without the connection I have to the universe. So is that Science or Spirituality? ."
Romance maybe."
LOL...maybe true. But it's my fantasy (/reality) and I'm sticking to it. :)
Religion does not cure illnesses, science does.
this book exposes the bitter side of religion and politics
I would rather live in a world without religion. I also am an atheist. I went to church for a looooong time but I never found it fulfilling to me. It is all works. Most wars and deaths are because of religion! Little boys and girls are being molested by so-called holy men! Pleeeaase! I do not want to start anything, so I will stop here. I got carried away. I don't believe there is a god!
Rational theist is an oxymoron. One who believes in gravity wouldnt believe in almighty. Science and Religion cannot go hand in hand. Science is based on facts and Relgion on Imagination.
I think one could not survive without the other. Although I do not put particularly high faith in religion (no pun intended), I still feel that religion is needed to pull people through their own challenges, big and small. I, also, can't praise science fully either, due to things that I have gone through with false promises from science.Whether you pray to God, Yhwh, Ganesha, or even science, I believe you should be mindful to those around you and love all. Look at all of the uncalled for fights and wars people get into everyday, just because someone believes their race or religion is better. I know I sound like a broken record, a peacemaker, but maybe we all need a little dash of this in our personalities.
Sai Thein Than wrote: "Actually, this is a question on the reading group guides. I like the topic so I bring it up here.I'm an atheist myself so I'd rather live in a world without religion. But, I'm not implying that re..."
Well said.
I would rather leave religion to the side because of what is happening with priest and pastors molesting children. Science can make a better world and the research they do can save life's!
Hell yes. A world without religion. I think there would be less oppression of women and less prejudice against homosexuals. I will plan on making my lullaby "imagine" for my babies. I want marri to know no prejudice and religion seems like the most futile one. Just do no harm to others and fuck the rest. I am married...what does homosexual marriage have to do with the sanctity of my marriage. Its about love...and not honoring a homosexual couples marriage is more unscantifying to my marriage than a homosexual marriage. Marriage is about love. Period.
I usually wonder if religion is the only system that molests children or abuse women.It is quite unfair to always single out priests or pious men for this act.I have seen atheistic politicians or academicians or scientists involved in the act.The problem of human depravity is transcendent over any system of life or belief.Yet it is only the christian worldview that offers even the faintest of a solution.Others have no answers to it.
Vanessa Eden wrote: "Marriage is about love. Period"This is at worst a lie and propaganda at best. Gay marriage is essentially about 2 things: money and legitimacy. A lack of state recognition has zero effect on the love two people feel for each other. What it does have an effect on is the ability of partners to inherit from each other tax-free and receive survivor's benefits. There is certainly an argument to be made in favor of extending these benefits to gay couples, but it has nothing to do with love.
@C.C When I fell in love I didn't go see my accountant to see if marriage would benefit me financially.We decided to get married as a symbol of our love and to bind us together. Long after I am dead, my ancestors will research their family tree and find me and my husband there, as husband and wife. We will be written down throughout time belonging to each other...not as two people bound together for tax breaks.
Elaine wrote: "Chris, I like your use of the word tend."lol I had the same thought.
Don't tell the Donner Party.
Naturally I'd rather live in a world without religion. Science contributes much to society while religion serves absolutely no purpose. As a wise man said "Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings"
I've just discovered a word that I didn't know: apatheist. That means people who don't care if a god exist or not and who believe that wouldn't change anything in their life whatever the case anyway.So, I was (and am) an apatheist without knowing it.
Vanessa Eden wrote: "@C.C When I fell in love I didn't go see my accountant to see if marriage would benefit me financially.We decided to get married as a symbol of our love and to bind us together. Long after I am de..."
Love is why you have the ceremony, which homosexuals can do anywhere in these United States. Finances are why you fight to have the government recognize you. Marriage can exist without government intervention, but what homosexuals are fighting for isn't marriage; it's the attendant financial benefits as well as a feeling of legitimacy. Getting these things has no effect on the amount of love that exists in the relationship.
C.C. wrote: "Vanessa Eden wrote: "Marriage is about love. Period"This is at worst a lie and propaganda at best. Gay marriage is essentially about 2 things: money and legitimacy. A lack of state recognitio..."
There is an idealistic viewpoint of the sanctity of marriage. I myself am fairly old and somewhat jaded. Therefore, marriage is about money and legitimacy. But when I was twenty, it was about something on a higher level. It was about love and proclaiming to the world that I belonged to another. Again...idealistic.
So the motivation for marriage is not so simple to pin on strangers. Therefore, keeping people 'asunder' because of sexual preference is akin to any other obstacle people have fought to overcome in history. Enough honest discussion such as this, and minds will be opened to a need for true equality in all areas of society.
Instead of arguing the reasons for people getting married, we should focus of the soundness of those arguing to keep them from marriage.
I really love this discussion group because of essential questions being raised. But lets pan out and take a broader look at the question of religion and science.Atheists, you seem to be on solid ground. For believers, or people trying to make sense of a higher power--(spiritualism), we are at odds with the constraints of structured religion.
Perhaps religion has yet to evolve to faith of a higher power that involves a plan, a sense of balance and a preordained symbiotic relationship with the universe.
That's what I appreciated about Angels and Demons--the possibility of religion and science not just co-existing, but being forged from the same origin.
Yeah, but science ask for evidences. Religions for faith without evidences. The powermongers used religions to keep people quiet and obedient, saying them that God was their guide and that you don't question God's will.
Science must be empirically based. Otherwise, it is no better than the hogwash of religious rhetoric. And ultimately, religion must have an element of choice--therefore, a lack of factual reasoning. Otherwise, there would be no free will or elevation of the spirit. We would all be obedient children following the masters orders without the ability to made a mistake and learn from it. Hence a world of pure science.I think I am comfortable with the concept of chaos on Earth and the need for humans to evolve above it. It's a cheesy saying, but it's not the hand your dealt but how you play it. That's how I see the presence of religion in my life. I feel a higher power is present in the world and although I am part of a structured religion, I am still reconciling my beliefs. That's how the pieces of the puzzle have come together for me so far. Who knows what I'll think when more of the picture comes into view.
R.C. wrote: "To me, this is the essential difference between the believer and the non-believer. The former attempts to assemble a reality that meets their preconceived notions, the latter accepts the reality their discoveries reveals..."Agree! :)
Daniel wrote: "Naturally I'd rather live in a world without religion. Science contributes much to society while religion serves absolutely no purpose. As a wise man said "Science flies you to the moon, religion ..."I like that quote! That is so very true!!
R.C. wrote: "In my view (based upon the common definition of the scientific method) science is process of discovery. There are no dictates or restrictions. Science goes where the evidence leads."I am in complete agreement with your statement. I would only add that the same standard be held for religion.
I believe whole-heartedly in the scientific method. What I find interesting is the divergent directions these paths flow in regard to science and religion.
In the case of religion, as you say, (following the) process of discovery…(with)…no dictates or restrictions being allowed (to go) where the evidence leads it flows upward, allowing spiritual growth, acceptance, and new found ideas and connections to form. I believe this is the path the Nirvana.
In the case of science it flows downward, cutting through misconceptions, abuse of data, self-interest, fame, glory, self-promotion, and desired results leading to empirically based facts.
The question I find interesting, is how do we know when we arrive at truth? Or can we only experience truth in today’s context? Perhaps we can only be on the path to truth…passing the torch to others along the way.
For Donna, "higher" is the nirvana. What would you say "higher" could be defined for a rational being?
But for yourself as a human being, how would you say your life has reached a higher level of truth?
Danny wrote: "For Donna, "higher" is the nirvana. What would you say "higher" could be defined for a rational being?"Sorry I couldn't be more relevant to the discussion.
Keep up the dialogue. It is interesting.
R.C. wrote: "Danny wrote: "But for yourself as a human being, how would you say your life has reached a higher level of truth?"The million-dollar question! Does having a process for reliable discovery actual..."
Have you already read Ray Kurzweil's books? If so, what would you say about the level of truth reached by his "spiritual machines"? (I know, they don't exist yet--at least, not like predicted)
An interesting point, and I'm an atheist myself but it's still not an easy question to answer. Religion gave us a lot in the earlier years. Religion gave us early architecture, art, the basic rules of society, but science has given us new technologies, health care.
Those are just a couple of basic points as well, religion makes many feel at home and comfortable, it gives them something to believe in, when they feel hopeless and helpless. Science gives us material things which help get us places, heal us, provide leisure, employment...
I'd say we need religion less but some people need both.
Those are just a couple of basic points as well, religion makes many feel at home and comfortable, it gives them something to believe in, when they feel hopeless and helpless. Science gives us material things which help get us places, heal us, provide leisure, employment...
I'd say we need religion less but some people need both.
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The human race is too young and too close to our "animal instincts" to do without religion, unfortunately. It is too bad that some need religion to be "good". I wish it were otherwise, because some religious people use their beliefs to persecute nonbelievers and other-believers in very immoral ways.
I think that the human race would not survive without both science and religion until we have matured enough to believe in the importance of good deeds not creeds.