Angels & Demons
discussion
Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion?
cHriS wrote: "Travis wrote:So, you are going with the 'things happen' argument.Interesting. "Things do happen. The question was, what was the 'reason'.
This reply did not just happen. I typed it, with two fin..."
Yes, but the reasons you listed were just random chance.
I just always find it interesting when people who believe in a higher power fall back on random chance/ things happen as an explanation.
Travis wrote: Yes, but the reasons you listed were just random chance..."No not random at all. Science tells us that if we eat/drink to much of 'this' it may effect our health, so it , according to science, is not random.
For example; being over weight is not good...we know what the cause and reason is for being over weight, it is not random.
Elaine wrote: "cHriS, in my example I mentioned premarital sex as an example to explain my definition. I guess I wasn't clear enough in my comment. No one is being harmed, therefore, it is not immoral according..."I think it depends on ypur own moral code whether harm is done. If you saw nothing wrong with premarital sex then it is not immoral. However if you had a deeply held conviction that it was wrong and engaged in it anyway, you have harmed yourself by violatong your own sense of morality.
Of course some actions that obvipusly harm others or limit there choices are immoral whether you believe they are or not.
cHriS wrote: "Travis wrote: Yes, but the reasons you listed were just random chance..."No not random at all. Science tells us that if we eat/drink to much of 'this' it may effect our health, so it , according ..."
Except your reasons were random: cancer and sitting in the wrong seat on an airplane.
With the big issues, believers say there must be a force/creator/god/reason for things happening, but then when asked about other things, fall back on 'stuff happens'.
Curious if there is a cut off point when the big guy steps in a makes the stuff happen, or if this is another example of cherry picking.
Travis wrote: "With the big issues, believers say there must be a force/creator/god/reason for things happening, but then when asked about other things, fall back on 'stuff happens'."
Might this be an overgeneralization? I'm not sure that all believers, especially when looking through a lens other than the Judeo-Christian lens, do this.
When I was a little girl, prior to receiving much religious indoctrination, I thought people were here in order to learn a lesson(s) or to complete some sort of task or mission. I still believe that. I thought, once people learned that lesson or completed that task, they died. I thought they went to the light that I saw, which my mother told me was God. I also thought some were born again and lived many lives. My mother told me we were Christians and didn't believe in that. I told her she was wrong. I knew people were born over and over.
So, ... how do I explain it when bad things happen?
My cousin is currently dying of liver cancer. Terminal. He's 44 and a single parent. No chance for transplant. Why? It's environmental, due to his working at a plant/factory that dealt with materials that cause cancers, including this horrid form of liver cancer. Chance? No. We live in a world of consumers who want certain things, including cars, plastics, coal, etc.... Those things make our lives easier. We get to move faster. Travel. On and on. Given that, some of us are willing to demand and use products that might hurt our environment and our health. Further, cold as this might sound, my cousin made a choice. He was a smart guy, but he hated school. Thought it boring. So, instead of going to college, he took a plant/factory job right out of high school. There's nothing wrong with that. At all. But, it was a choice. In addition, regardless of whether or not he'd gone to a tech school or college or not, the economy went to hell, due to irresponsible choices made by both Republican and Democratic politicians, people who thought they could pay twice what houses were valued for and make out okay, more people in China becoming financially stable and buying more goods and using more energy, etc.... He might have ended up on that factory floor anyway. Regardless, it's not chance.
My grandfather died recently of a heart attack at 93 years old. Why? He was 93 years old. My grandmother, whose brain has atrophied due to a stroke several years ago, etc..., keeps forgetting he died. It's very sad. Gut-wrenching. I spent Tuesday morning with her, while she went on and on about her fears regarding my grandfather. That he was breaking his vows and being taken care of by another woman. When I finally told her he was dead, had died, she started crying. Having to relive his death all over again. Why did she suffer the stroke that fried her brain, etc...? Well, she was in her 80's and that happens. She, despite being thin and active, was treated for high blood pressure for years and years. It runs in her family. Genetics. Her mother also suffered from dementia. Genetics. Not chance. Genetics. Could it also be that God created her to have high blood pressure, etc... for a certain reason? To teach something or learn a lesson or ...? I don't know.
I have a cousin who died at 22 or 23 of ALS. Why? Given more deaths in the family of ALS and research done by researchers at Dartmouth College and Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center, we know it likely had to do with blue-green algae in some New England ponds and lakes and a genetic marker. Why does the blue-green algae exist in some New England ponds and lakes, which activates ALS in people who carry the genetic marker? I don't know. I've not studied it. Chance? Or.... Have we created it somehow? Due to our climate? News reports cautioned us last week that our ponds and lakes might develop it due to the overabundance of rain we've had over the last few weeks. Some claim that rain is due to hot ocean temperatures and climate change. Or, ... did my cousin, who was a newlywed and her parents' only child, somehow have that marker on purpose, given to her by God, due to the fact that she'd learn her lesson or complete her mission at an early age?
You know..... I honestly don't know.
But, I don't think my examples are random and, even though it makes me somewhat uncomfortable and I fully admit I don't understand it all, I acknowledge that God might have had a hand in the time of their deaths, diseases, etc....
Might this be an overgeneralization? I'm not sure that all believers, especially when looking through a lens other than the Judeo-Christian lens, do this.
When I was a little girl, prior to receiving much religious indoctrination, I thought people were here in order to learn a lesson(s) or to complete some sort of task or mission. I still believe that. I thought, once people learned that lesson or completed that task, they died. I thought they went to the light that I saw, which my mother told me was God. I also thought some were born again and lived many lives. My mother told me we were Christians and didn't believe in that. I told her she was wrong. I knew people were born over and over.
So, ... how do I explain it when bad things happen?
My cousin is currently dying of liver cancer. Terminal. He's 44 and a single parent. No chance for transplant. Why? It's environmental, due to his working at a plant/factory that dealt with materials that cause cancers, including this horrid form of liver cancer. Chance? No. We live in a world of consumers who want certain things, including cars, plastics, coal, etc.... Those things make our lives easier. We get to move faster. Travel. On and on. Given that, some of us are willing to demand and use products that might hurt our environment and our health. Further, cold as this might sound, my cousin made a choice. He was a smart guy, but he hated school. Thought it boring. So, instead of going to college, he took a plant/factory job right out of high school. There's nothing wrong with that. At all. But, it was a choice. In addition, regardless of whether or not he'd gone to a tech school or college or not, the economy went to hell, due to irresponsible choices made by both Republican and Democratic politicians, people who thought they could pay twice what houses were valued for and make out okay, more people in China becoming financially stable and buying more goods and using more energy, etc.... He might have ended up on that factory floor anyway. Regardless, it's not chance.
My grandfather died recently of a heart attack at 93 years old. Why? He was 93 years old. My grandmother, whose brain has atrophied due to a stroke several years ago, etc..., keeps forgetting he died. It's very sad. Gut-wrenching. I spent Tuesday morning with her, while she went on and on about her fears regarding my grandfather. That he was breaking his vows and being taken care of by another woman. When I finally told her he was dead, had died, she started crying. Having to relive his death all over again. Why did she suffer the stroke that fried her brain, etc...? Well, she was in her 80's and that happens. She, despite being thin and active, was treated for high blood pressure for years and years. It runs in her family. Genetics. Her mother also suffered from dementia. Genetics. Not chance. Genetics. Could it also be that God created her to have high blood pressure, etc... for a certain reason? To teach something or learn a lesson or ...? I don't know.
I have a cousin who died at 22 or 23 of ALS. Why? Given more deaths in the family of ALS and research done by researchers at Dartmouth College and Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center, we know it likely had to do with blue-green algae in some New England ponds and lakes and a genetic marker. Why does the blue-green algae exist in some New England ponds and lakes, which activates ALS in people who carry the genetic marker? I don't know. I've not studied it. Chance? Or.... Have we created it somehow? Due to our climate? News reports cautioned us last week that our ponds and lakes might develop it due to the overabundance of rain we've had over the last few weeks. Some claim that rain is due to hot ocean temperatures and climate change. Or, ... did my cousin, who was a newlywed and her parents' only child, somehow have that marker on purpose, given to her by God, due to the fact that she'd learn her lesson or complete her mission at an early age?
You know..... I honestly don't know.
But, I don't think my examples are random and, even though it makes me somewhat uncomfortable and I fully admit I don't understand it all, I acknowledge that God might have had a hand in the time of their deaths, diseases, etc....
Travis wrote: Except your reasons were random: cancer and sitting in the wrong seat on an airplane.With the big issues, believers say there must be a force/creator/god/reason for things happening, but then when asked about other things, fall back on 'stuff happens'.
Curious if there is a cut off point when the big guy steps in a makes the stuff happen, or if this is another example of cherry picking.
"
My answer was not random. Maria gave a specific example and asked for a reason, I gave the reason. She did not come back on it so I guess she was 'ok' with that reply.
It is not cherry picking, but it is curious why an atheist would bring 'the big guy' into the equation. Something you confess to not believe in but at the same time wanting an answer that involves this creator.
Curiouser and curiouser
.
a world without selfish and foolish people will be the wise choice
Travis wrote: "cHriS wrote: "Maria wrote: How do you justify it if a pedophile baby rapist and an upstanding father of small children are both on plane that crashes, and the rapist survives but the father doesn't..."It think it was Twain who wrote, "Not a swallow falls to the ground that God does not see, yet it falls just the same."
I believe the true test of faith is allowing good and evil to occur and then trusting in the power of free will. It is up to us to determine if we can sustain faith in such a volatile existence. Were it not for the randomness of good and evil in the world, there would be no leap of faith. Instead, rewarding all who believed would make following a guaranteed win. That is closer to the realm of science; being able to test and prove. Removing all doubt takes away the mystery, the fragility, the preciousness of hope. Faith requires risk, or it is meaningless.
I believe there is a place in Heaven for those who have been tested and have fought with every fiber of their being to not turn their back on their religion. It's easy to be a follower during the good times, but it takes a true believer to remain during our darkest hours.
cerebus wrote: "http://www.salon.com/2013/07/14/zealo..."
Ahahahaha....
Good thing I always considered myself a James woman and refuse to read Paul, isn't it?!
Wondering what this author, either of the book or of the article, have to say about the historical Jesus and his view of women and the fact that he, reportedly, worked with women and was financially supported by women. Rather cutting edge. Didn't see it mentioned. Loved the link to Muslim extremists in the end, though.
Do you have thoughts regarding the points of this article that you'd like to share with us?
Ahahahaha....
Good thing I always considered myself a James woman and refuse to read Paul, isn't it?!
Wondering what this author, either of the book or of the article, have to say about the historical Jesus and his view of women and the fact that he, reportedly, worked with women and was financially supported by women. Rather cutting edge. Didn't see it mentioned. Loved the link to Muslim extremists in the end, though.
Do you have thoughts regarding the points of this article that you'd like to share with us?
cHriS - I am ok with your response, and I tend to agree - there are reasons why the actual things happened. I guess what I'm asking, and there may not really be an answer - is why did the bad things happen to the good people and not the bad people.
If (big IF) there is a big guy watching, why didn't the pedophile pick the wrong seat on the plane?
I think there are definitely scientific, logical explanations for the things that occur - and some things are controlled by lifestyle choices, like the person who eats the wrong foods, is sedentary, and doesn't go to the doctor may have a heart attack.
But the seat on the plane, isn't that just chance? (Flashback to LOST)
cerebus wrote: "http://www.salon.com/2013/07/14/zealo..."Interesting article. I have heard these comments before and it makes you think. If the holders of truth aren't in power, how are we ever to know what to believe? Ultimately, it's up to every one of us not to accept blindly but to learn and decide for ourselves. That's not blasphemy. That's intellectual responsibility.
Maria wrote: "But the seat on the plane, isn't that just chance? (Flashback to LOST) "
My uncle, who was a pilot, always insisted we sit in certain areas of the plane, certain seats. He said some seats were safer than others. So, I don't know. It might not be chance.
I struggled once regarding this issue. I knew someone who was a truly good person. All sorts of good traits and did all sorts of good in the community. Had so much to offer the world. He died very young. At the same time, I knew a man who was funny, but he was a complete and utter jerk. He lied and used people. A lot. I wondered why in the world one was taken over the other. Why wasn't the "jerk" who constantly hurt people by using them and by lying killed?
Ultimately, you're right. We likely won't ever know. However, if that feeling I had when I was little is right, it seems obvious. Perhaps the good man had learned his life lessons and/or completed his mission; it would seem the "jerk" of a man had not.
Now, you used the example of a sex offender. The worst possible person, in the minds of many of us. Further, many of us are aware that sex offenders can't be cured. So, .... I don't know. Perhaps we're meant, as a society, to realize sex offenders can't be treated, except through actual castration (see studies out of France from the '90's), and deal with sex offenders seriously ... instead of routinely giving child molesters 4 to 6 years, which equates to around a year and a half or two years with good time. In my neck of the woods, at least. If we realized that, likely fewer children would be molested.
My uncle, who was a pilot, always insisted we sit in certain areas of the plane, certain seats. He said some seats were safer than others. So, I don't know. It might not be chance.
I struggled once regarding this issue. I knew someone who was a truly good person. All sorts of good traits and did all sorts of good in the community. Had so much to offer the world. He died very young. At the same time, I knew a man who was funny, but he was a complete and utter jerk. He lied and used people. A lot. I wondered why in the world one was taken over the other. Why wasn't the "jerk" who constantly hurt people by using them and by lying killed?
Ultimately, you're right. We likely won't ever know. However, if that feeling I had when I was little is right, it seems obvious. Perhaps the good man had learned his life lessons and/or completed his mission; it would seem the "jerk" of a man had not.
Now, you used the example of a sex offender. The worst possible person, in the minds of many of us. Further, many of us are aware that sex offenders can't be cured. So, .... I don't know. Perhaps we're meant, as a society, to realize sex offenders can't be treated, except through actual castration (see studies out of France from the '90's), and deal with sex offenders seriously ... instead of routinely giving child molesters 4 to 6 years, which equates to around a year and a half or two years with good time. In my neck of the woods, at least. If we realized that, likely fewer children would be molested.
Donna wrote: "Ultimately, it's up to every one of us not to accept blindly but to learn and decide for ourselves. That's not blasphemy. That's intellectual responsibility. "
Very true!
Very true!
What a funny philosophy! So, all those people who lived long lives were life learning disabled. I know of a 15 year-old boy who died in an accident because of his own stupidity. He was not thought of highly by his teachers (an utter jerk, in other words). He certainly never learned his life lessons!In my opinion, the bad and good things that happen to people are random and/or the result of their decisions.
Elaine wrote: "What a funny philosophy! So, all those people who lived long lives were life learning disabled. I know of a 15 year-old boy who died in an accident because of his own stupidity. He was not thoug..."
Perhaps you missed part of my post, Elaine. Two parts, actually. The part that said some things have to do with choice and the part that said I didn't ultimately have the answers.
You have a right to your opinion; I'm not going to call yours funny. Wonder why you feel the need to do so? Choice or random accident?
Perhaps you missed part of my post, Elaine. Two parts, actually. The part that said some things have to do with choice and the part that said I didn't ultimately have the answers.
You have a right to your opinion; I'm not going to call yours funny. Wonder why you feel the need to do so? Choice or random accident?
Sai Thein Than wrote: "Actually, this is a question on the reading group guides. I like the topic so I bring it up here.I'm an atheist myself so I'd rather live in a world without religion. But, I'm not implying that re..."
I'm an atheist as well, but honestly, I don't really think I'd like to pick one or the other.
Religion, as it stands, has only been a downfall for humanity when the organized aspects get twisted and used badly. The idea of religion, or the spiritual connection that it allows people to tap, is by itself a fantastic thing. Many wonderful artistic expressions, or deeper thoughts and ponderings, have come from the idea that there is something "bigger" or "more". Spirituality allows us to feel in touch not just with ourselves, but with the world around us, and connect to the deeper aspects of living; it allows us to appreciate.
But science allows us to explore, to grow, to change, to see more. It allows us to be objective, and to ask more of the world around us; it satisfies our desire to know. Questioning is something that is allowed in spiritual explorations, but is largely squashed in organized religion. That right there is one of the biggest downfalls that religion took on so long ago. Organized religion tries to paint itself as unquestionable, unsurpassed, and without fault, when in reality, as a reflection of humans, it is full of faults, questions, and problems. But the mistake comes when organized religions refuse to embrace those mistakes and evolve into something different.
Science has always embraced the possibility of being wrong. In fact, it ASSUMES that nothing is without question, that most things we see are probably not the entire picture, and that even when you have results and answers, you should continue to look beyond. It encourages growth, the exact opposite of organized religions' stagnation.
They balance one another. I would still say I'd like to live without religion, in that I'd like to live without the organized aspects of it. I prefer the idea of connection, of energies shared, of all things being like a giant aspen grove instead of a forest with separate organisms, and that doesn't really require the explanation of a deistic kind.
Really, I think humans make the mistake of trying to relate their world experience to something more human, like the world can only be amazing if it can be understood through something human-like (or a "god"); if we instead tried to relate our experience to the non-human aspects of our world, something that would be undoubtedly far more humbling, we would probably go a lot further in our own evolution.
Ofcourse, A World without religion.
Maria wrote: If (big IF) there is a big guy watching, why didn't the pedophile pick the wrong seat on the plane? ..."
The bigger question would be why did the 'big guy' have to 'create' people who are not as we perceive to be 'normal'? Or why have evil at all? Or why create people?
Maria wrote: But the seat on the plane, isn't that just chance? (Flashback to LOST)
Who knows. Some believe our future is already mapped out with some degree of free will. Others believe we have total free will and 'chance' plays a part.
Travis says 'stuff happens' and he could be right. We, the earth and universe are all here completely by accident and nothing and nobody matters.
Why I find that hard to agree with is because as humans we do care about other people, we do think they 'matter'. I don't mean your close friends or family, that could just be basic animal instinct. But we show concern for others half way across the globe. Why?
If we are here because 'stuff happens' nothing more, why do we spend so much of our short time here concerning ourselves what happens to others half a world away?
That is an interesting debate since I am atheist - but at the same time I am thinking of choosing religion because it is easier to live, believing that all is controlled from above and your fate is already decided. However without science there is no human progress, and without human progress we would still be stuck in the state of cavemen, unable to move on.
This question seems a little vague because it does not specify - is science taken away from us? Or is it not given in the first place? Because science is all around us, it is the way we look at things, it is all around us, and even though now, the standard of what is 'science' has been raised, and now science is supposedly the 'hard stuff' however I think we all fail to realize than science can be much more basic, and I don't think we could survive without it.
So back to the question - I think that religion would be a better alternative, however science would be something impossible to avoid, we would come to it in the end, anyway.
cHriS said: "The bigger question would be why did the 'big guy' have to 'create' people who are not as we perceive to be 'normal'?"I tend to believe in the tabula rasa theory. We are born blank slates and come to be who we are through experience and perception.
My example used a child raping pedophile. That is a bigger thing than someone not perceived as not normal. It's someone who may have been raised in such a way so that he is attracted to children, but he has chosen to act on those abnormal influences and commit horrible crimes.
Big difference in my opinion.
Maria wrote:I tend to believe in the tabula rasa theory. We are born blank slates and come to be who we are through experience and perception. "
But that would lead us to assume that if a person is bad he/she must have come into contact with 'bad' at some point in his/her life. So what if a persons experience and perception as been all good, but they still do bad things at some point.
Maria wrote:My example used a child raping pedophile. That is a bigger thing than someone not perceived as not normal. It's someone who may have been raised in such a way so that he is attracted to children, but he has chosen to act on those abnormal influences and commit horrible crimes.
What if he was born with those 'traits' and has nothing to do with how he was raised?
cHriS said: " what if a persons experience and perception as been all good, but they still do bad things at some point."In this world the way it is today, there is no way that any human being could never come into contact with anything bad. If not in his own personal life, then in a book, on TV, at the theater, experiences of friends, the evening news, etc.
cHriS said: "What if he was born with those 'traits' and has nothing to do with how he was raised?"
He could have been born with those tendencies, maybe pedophilia is genetic and it could've been in his DNA, but he has the choice whether to act on them or not.
cHriS wrote: "What if he was born with those 'traits' and has nothing to do with how he was raised? "
Well, cHriS, you're more likely than not right.
Change in ideas regarding pedophilia...
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/...
New information regarding the brains of criminals...
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/st...
Nothing to do with pedophilia, really, but these show what can happen while babies are the womb. The first links flus to bipolar, likely a result of fevers. The second discusses several things. Later in the article, it raises the fact that women with herpes, specifically outbreaks while pregnant ... which often happens, have an increased chance of having children with bipolar and other psychiatric disorders.
http://healthyliving.msn.com/diseases...
http://www.everydayhealth.com/bipolar...
Well, cHriS, you're more likely than not right.
Change in ideas regarding pedophilia...
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/...
New information regarding the brains of criminals...
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/st...
Nothing to do with pedophilia, really, but these show what can happen while babies are the womb. The first links flus to bipolar, likely a result of fevers. The second discusses several things. Later in the article, it raises the fact that women with herpes, specifically outbreaks while pregnant ... which often happens, have an increased chance of having children with bipolar and other psychiatric disorders.
http://healthyliving.msn.com/diseases...
http://www.everydayhealth.com/bipolar...
I agree, Shannon, with you and cHriS - lots of things can happen either in the womb, or even in the mother or father's past before the baby was conceived, that could cause all kinds of physical and mental issues. I just don't think people are pre-disposed to doing the right thing or the wrong thing, or being a kind, gentle person, like they would be pre-disposed to having red hair or blue eyes, being tall or short, etc. That is, unless they do have some sort of mental illness that could be genetic, as in the case of a sociopath.
But even then, just because someone is pre-disposed with the tendencies to act in a certain way, can their experiences and perceptions cause them to decide to control their bad tendencies? Either by taking the proper medication, getting couseling, or just by using self-control?
Tough questions, and I don't know that there are any straightforward answers.
Without religion. Most definitely. Just think of all the wars, murder, oppression, coercion, and loss of dignity and freedom in general humans have suffered throughout history in the name of religion. If the world were void of religion, most humans would still be spiritual to various extents. Besides, it's a moot point. Even if some would want to live without science, it would exist everywhere and always anyway. And, of course, without religion, man would still wage war. Religious strife is not ever about religion itself. It's about power and wealth, wealth and power. War is never about anything else. That's why the world would be far more peaceful if women were in charge. The well-being of our offspring is paramount above all else.
Maria wrote: "I don't know that there are any straightforward answers. "
Likely not, at the moment at least. The research is probably too new, and a lot of tracking and investigation needs to be done. A look at both nature and nurture in order to see how each plays off the other ... if they do and to what extent.
I've never been an all nature or all nurture person. I think both are at play in most of us. However, .... I don't know how it works when people have "criminal" brains, bipolar, etc.... Does nature outweigh nurture?
(Also, I don't know about people being kinds and gentle, but almost think I've heard there are genetic markers for being outgoing, shy, etc... Will look.)
Likely not, at the moment at least. The research is probably too new, and a lot of tracking and investigation needs to be done. A look at both nature and nurture in order to see how each plays off the other ... if they do and to what extent.
I've never been an all nature or all nurture person. I think both are at play in most of us. However, .... I don't know how it works when people have "criminal" brains, bipolar, etc.... Does nature outweigh nurture?
(Also, I don't know about people being kinds and gentle, but almost think I've heard there are genetic markers for being outgoing, shy, etc... Will look.)
I've always found the nature vs. nurture thing really interesting. Like when identical twins with the exact same DNA are raised in different circumstances, how they turn out to be entirely different people. Would this have happened if they had been raised together? Kinda hard to experiment with this!
Shannon, I'm sorry you thought my comment was directed at you personally. It wasn't. (I didn't direct the comment to you specifically, as I am doing now with this comment.) I was merely expressing my opinion on the idea itself which I did extrapolate from your comment. I did realize that you yourself didn't necessarily believe this but it is a way that some might regard the issue.
Maria wrote: "I've always found the nature vs. nurture thing really interesting. Like when identical twins with the exact same DNA are raised in different circumstances, how they turn out to be entirely differe..."
This deals with identical twins ...
http://www.nytimes.com/1986/12/02/sci...
This deals with identical twins ...
http://www.nytimes.com/1986/12/02/sci...
Elaine wrote: "Shannon, I'm sorry you thought my comment was directed at you personally. It wasn't. (I didn't direct the comment to you specifically, as I am doing now with this comment.) I was merely expressi..."
You don't need to be sorry, Elaine. It's an idea I've had and I shared. Everyone has all sorts of ideas. You might have an idea that's totally different from mine. Maria might have one that doesn't match with either of us. Are they funny ideas or not? Ehhh.... They're our ideas.
You don't need to be sorry, Elaine. It's an idea I've had and I shared. Everyone has all sorts of ideas. You might have an idea that's totally different from mine. Maria might have one that doesn't match with either of us. Are they funny ideas or not? Ehhh.... They're our ideas.
It's more like cars made from the exact same production line has different kind of issues as they are driven.(sorry, I'm a automotive engineer :) )DNA dictates the basic things but rest are all the enviornment people grow up in.
science and religion both are integral part of one's life and in fact of society as a whole... we cant expect and individual or society to progress by depriving it of the benefits of either... both religion and science has its pros and cons... a society where both these aspects exists in harmony can , in the true sense,achieve success... science without religion is lame and religion withour science is blind...
By and Large, Religion has brought more harm than benefits to humans. If you're speaking about being spiritual that's different. Here we speak about religion, which is very different from that.
Maria wrote: In this world the way it is today, there is no way that any human being could never come into contact with anything bad. If not in his own personal life, then in a book, on TV, at the theater, experiences of friends, the evening news, etc...."
I don't know...... A person plays a 'violent' 'shooter' video game and then go out into the real world with a gun and tries to emulate the game in real life.
What if two million copies of the game were sold and he was the only one that did this violent act; is it the fault of the video game or did the game just act as a trigger for what was already building up inside this person. If it wasn't the video game it could have been a movie or something on the news.
Or maybe violence has an appeal to some people.
Science and religion are an integral part of some but not all people's lives. Some people are raised without any religious instruction or beliefs. Religious beliefs and activities are very strange to them, particularly if they focused on science for their education and career. Society doesn't need religion to exist or function. In fact, I would argue that religion, rather than making a society progress, actually hinders its progression.
World without science is impossible. Whereas world without religion is very much plausible. Religion at its core is plainly a sociological construct to ensure certain norms and regulations, in the name of God. As for morality, you don't necessarily need religion.
Shannon wrote: "Travis wrote: "With the big issues, believers say there must be a force/creator/god/reason for things happening, but then when asked about other things, fall back on 'stuff happens'."Might this ..."
Maria wrote: "I agree, Shannon, with you and cHriS - lots of things can happen either in the womb, or even in the mother or father's past before the baby was conceived, that could cause all kinds of physical and..."
Vickie wrote: "Without religion. Most definitely. Just think of all the wars, murder, oppression, coercion, and loss of dignity and freedom in general humans have suffered throughout history in the name of religi..."
Excellent discussion, but in the end I guess religion.Doing science at uni, however, this has to be one of the best questions ever?
Sreerag wrote: "World without science is impossible. Whereas world without religion is very much plausible. Religion at its core is plainly a sociological construct to ensure certain norms and regulations, in the..."Agreed.
People keep saying we need religion, but you can have spirituality and morality without it.
When you ask "HOW things come to be" you will answer "WHY things are"
Michael wrote: "When you ask "HOW things come to be" you will answer "WHY things are""The problem with that is religion conditions people to think the 'why' must be a 'grand plan', when in reality it's just a 'why not' or 'because' and they won't accept that.
'How' / 'Why'The how is easier to answer (according to science, anyway); the Why needs a bit more thought, maybe more than we humans are capable of.
Take the 'Infinite monkey theorem' for example. Although we can't say it is impossible we all know it is. And it is the same for human life...stuff like us does not just happen.
It did happen via evolution.
I can well imagine a world without religion; I cannot imagine a world without science.
I can imagine a world without science but I'm not very fond of gathering roots and berries.
When you talk about a world without science, you are talking about a world without advancing technology right? Science is just a tool to analyze the world around us...to figure out how things work, etc. I also think there is a difference between a world without God, and a world without religion. Religion seems to be our foolish way of messing up the relationship God wanted with us to begin with
cHriS wrote: "'How' / 'Why'The how is easier to answer (according to science, anyway); the Why needs a bit more thought, maybe more than we humans are capable of.
Take the 'Infinite monkey theorem' for exampl..."
Since stuff like us did just happen, so I'm not sure how you can say it can't.
Travis wrote: Since stuff like us did just happen, so I'm not sure how you can say it can't. ..."
A monkey did not write the works of Shakespeare and we did not just happen.
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Things do happen. The question was, what was the 'reason'.
This reply did not just happen. I typed it, with two fingers, (reason)in response to your question.
I understand that the original question was asked to provoke a deeper response. But the deeper the response is, the less understanding it will generate.
For example: I know that there is something else after this life, I just know. I am not here to convince anyone, it is just something I know. Others know as well. The people that don't know, will for now, never know because the response to their questions is to deep to understand.