Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion? Showing 11,251-11,300 of 12,463

[Leiah]

In the story of Noah and the ark, the fact that it was going to rain, let alone be a global ..."

Actually, there is a scientific basis for the "Noah and the Ark" myth. Studies on board the Mediterranean Explorer and other studies show that a great flooding did occur at about the time of the Noah myth:

"We found that indeed a flood happened around that time. From core samples, we see that a flood broke through the natural barrier separating the Mediterranean Sea and the freshwater Black Sea, bringing with it seashells that only grow in a marine environment. There was no doubt that it was a fast flood -- one that covered an expanse four times the size of Israel. It might not have been Noah, as it is written in the Bible, but we believe people in that region had to build boats in order to save their animals from drowning. We think that the ones who survived were fishermen -- they already had the boats." (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/...)

Hence, a scientific basis for an oral history passed down through generations and embroidered upon by a religious mentality. There is without a doubt some solid scientific and historical data contained in the Bible and Koran, as well as other religious texts. It has simply been twisted around and made to fit within an overall religious rather than logically scientific/historical format. It is to be expected, if not admired. Politics and religion have always run hand in hand. Affirming control over the masses was most easily done by designing a religion that allowed for that control.

Any Biblical historian with any true chops will point out that, no matter the religion, it is historically accurate to say that religions come into an area with conquers to help exert control over the people. They do this in many ways, including torture and murder, but also by co-opting the existing beliefs. Thus, pagan holidays are turned into Christian ones, etc.

If one stands back and looks at religion scientifically and historically, it is possible to recognize important happenings throughout that point in history. Please note, there is no fixed date for the birth of the prophet Jesus, it is simply extrapolated from historical records, especially the writings of Jewish historian, Joseph ben Matthias and others. Regarding the "Star of Bethlehem", there were two critical conjunctions in the sky at that period, as well as a very bright super nova noted by Chinese astrologers. Yet again, scientific/historical data fitted into religious dogma.

Religions might be best served in maintaining their usefulness to humanity by studying the historical facts of the texts. This would give humans a greater understanding of this wondrous historical knowledge, thereby lending more realism rather than superstition to their beliefs. By doing so, wouldn't they point out clearly that, whatever happened to bring this amazing universe about, it was amazingly creative and loved beauty, summitry and chaotic synchronicity? I am more taken into the spiritual by the curve of a comet's tail and the petals of a flower than I ever was by a minister preaching hell and damnation.

[Maria]

That is a great post, Leiah - I agree with you. I think that the lessons learned from the stories in the Bible as far as how to treat your fellow man, how to live a healthy life, etc. are more important than whether the actual events took place.

I've brought out many times on this message board how most holidays celebrated by Christians are pagan in origin - the response I get is "I don't care, they are fun so I am going to continue to offend God by putting his name on a pagan celebration - Oh, but I'm still a Christian..."

Pretty funny.

[Leiah]

I know, it's hysterical. And I have seen your excellent posts, too. I was just frustrated by the "knew the flood was coming, the whole world flooded and that's a fact, Jack" mentality. What is a fact is that so many things of beauty and worth are destroyed, so much history lost, through religious zealot-ism. Ripping down statuary, burning books and libraries, destroying paintings and buildings. It breaks my heart.

In their own way ALL religions have validity - they are what people believed in and lived their life by. I can't say I agreed with the Spanish Inquisition or the Aztec murder rituals - but that was reality at the time. The destruction of the Aztec tablets and the relics of other belief systems, whether they agree with your own belief system or not, is a tragic loss.

[Maria]

It's been said on this board that to credit religion with people living a good life, being a good person, etc. is unfair because people can still do that on their own without religion.

That is true for some people. But others need to be accountable to what they believe is a higher power, especially if they have already bad thoughts or inclinations and all that is keeping them from acting on them is their fear of displeasing their god, or their fear of a fiery hell.

In that way, I think religion can be a good thing - if it's keeping some crimes from being committed, keeping otherwise "bad" people from acting out.

It also serves as a way for some people to come to terms with a horrible event, like the death of a child. If they can explain it away as "god's will" and think that they will one day be reunited with that person in heaven, maybe that helps them keep from going insane with grief. That is also a good thing.

It also may help some people get through a difficult or stressful situation if they think a higher power is giving them strength. Even if it's not true, it's the placebo effect.

The part of religion that bothers me the most, or actually religious people, not religion as an entity...is the hypocrisy.

People claim to be Christian, which means they believe in the Bible, but they feel they don't have to follow the rules set out there.

Or, as an example, a co-worker of mine says she is Catholic. However her boyfriend spends the night at her home all the time and they use birth control. Last time I checked, those were no-no's for Catholics. She feels like since she was raised Catholic that's what she is - even though she hasn't set foot in a Catholic church in years.

Religious affiliation is not like race or nationality. You can't say, well my parents are Catholic so I am too, like you'd say my parents are Italian, so I am too. You can claim to be of a certain religion if you believe and follow all of their teachings.

Just my opinion.

[Mary]

Thanks Maria. Good to know about cs

[[deleted user]]

Leslie wrote: "I think calling someone's beliefs crazy is extremely rude and disrespectful."

I agree.

[Leiah]

Maria It's been said on this board that to credit religion with people living a good life, being a good person, etc. is unfair because people can still do that on their own without religion.

Agreed, absolutely. I am not religious. However, I have had to make a lot of decisions in my life, decisions that required a 'good' or 'bad' action. I didn't go for the 'bad' - not because of any 'fear of god' but because it was the right thing to do. I have suffered for it, when the 'bad' decision would have benefited me much more.

We make decisions as humans. Not everyone can do that, as you pointed out, without an "overseer".

"God is Love" "God is Forgiving" --- my teenage daughter got pregnant, and I kicked her out on the streets . . . . >-/

[[deleted user]]

Maria wrote: "But to say "let the message board continue its course" is a little condescending to the ones who are commenting, as if their comments are not appropriate to the conversation. "


Excuse me, Maria.

You've, on several occasions, asked and, perhaps, even demanded that people stop talking about certain things and change the topic over the past year or so. People, plural. In addition, on some of those occasions, you've even made derogatory comments toward the posters when you did so. Posters, plural.

Did you consider yourself to be condescending when you did so?

Or, do you hold yourself to a different standard than Cesar?

[[deleted user]]

Cesar wrote: "I apologize for sounding like that"


You didn't, in my opinion.

[Travis]

Leiah wrote: "I know, it's hysterical. And I have seen your excellent posts, too. I was just frustrated by the "knew the flood was coming, the whole world flooded and that's a fact, Jack" mentality. What is a fa..."

As a look at history, philosophy or mythology, I've got little problem with religion.
It's the people out there now deciding their mythology is the way to live (at least the convenient parts) and wanting to force all of us to do the same.
Then, I have some problems.

[[deleted user]]

Elaine wrote: "This discussion has strayed considerably from the question. I have noticed that many people are unwilling to choose either religion or science but choose both. So to get to the question: assume y..."

When I first answered here, I said I'm glad I live in a country in which I don't have to choose. I still feel that way.

I sometimes wonder at the question. I'm aware that it's the original question posed. I just sometimes wonder.... What is the point of the question?

An intellectual exercise? A chance to look into one's mind and heart and question oneself as to what is really important?

Personally, I refuse to choose ... for a reason.

So many people throughout history have been forced ... Forced into a certain religion. Forced not to practice a religion. Forced to turn one's back on science.

Sadly, people continue to be forced.

Given that, I prefer to take a stand against having to choose.

[[deleted user]]

Maria wrote: "Mary, my suggestion is just to ignore Chris. Lots of us on this thread made the decision to do that last year on this thread when he was going by the name "cs". He started out ok, but then his po..."


Is this an attempt at moderating the thread? To guide the discussion?

[Leiah]

Travis wrote: "
As a look at history, philosophy or mythology, I've got little problem with religion."

Agreed, Travis.

[[deleted user]]

Maria wrote: "The part of religion that bothers me the most, or actually religious people, not religion as an entity...is the hypocrisy.
"


Hypocrisy bothers me in general. Does it both you in general, or just with regard to those who are religious?

[Leiah]

I agree with Maria. Hypocrisy is the WORST. And it isn't just religious hypocrisy for me. Politicians, especially those "Family Value" types, who talk the good talk out of one side of their mouths while whoring, stealing, taking bribes, working to make sure that they get despicably rich while the people they are supposed to protect suffer.

[Shanna]

cHriS, do you have a problem with same sex couples using the terms husband/wife to describe their partners?

[Mario]

I would rather live in a world without religion than a world without science. Think of all the past conflicts due to religion. The catholic church executed anti-Catholics that went against all of their beliefs. And for what? Just so they won't be proved wrong? Scientists have concrete evidence, proven with experiments and data, while most of the time is just pure beliefs and theories.

[Tomas]

A world without religion would be better. This would be better because all of the wars people have started because of different religions or dispositions towards religion. for example without an extremist group of a religious party, the wars and conquests would've never happened. like in angels and demons religious parties take their beliefs out of hand, just like during the scientific revolution people would be publicly slaughtered for arguing with the church, imagine how many great minds were slaughtered because their values went against the church. KILLING FOR GOD IS LIKE HAVING SEX FOR VIRGINITY.

[cHriS]

Shanna wrote: "cHriS, do you have a problem with same sex couples using the terms husband/wife to describe their partners?"

Why do I feel that this is a trick question?

Scott Capurro is a gay American comedian who lives in London and has a partner. He regularly appears on morning tv. His jokes and innuendos are very near the knuckle for day time television and he is very funny.

He refers to his partner as his wife, even though he can't get married here; he says he is practicing for when the law changes.

But I don't think that's what you mean.

They can call each other what ever they like, as long as I am not obliged to take then seriously.

Why do you ask?

[Leiah]

They can call each other what ever they like, as long as I am not obliged to take then seriously."

You poor thing. As a Psychiatrist once put it to me at a charity function, "Me thinks he doth protest too much. The ones who are the most vehemently anti-gay are usually the most closeted and in the most pain from denial."

[Maria]

Shannon - Cesar and I made our peace and moved on a while back.

So, your attempt to rile us back up and demand explanations for what we said to each other is futile. Sorry, you'll have to spread your joy elsewhere, as that is over.

How about some comments about what we're actually talking about, like the hypocrisy of Christians celebrating pagan holidays, or maybe people claiming to be Catholics who also have pre-marital sex and use birth control?

And yes, I've made many attempts to "guide the discussion" - more than once because you kept hounding people over silly things like whether they used a comma or a semi-colon and why their choice constituted a personal affront to you and your heritage (sorry, being sarcastic here), rather than contributing to what was actually being discussed.

[Dan's]

Shannon wrote: Hypocrisy bothers me in general. DDoes it both you in general, or just with regard to those who are religious?


@ Shannon: well now for me Religion is nowadays a by-product of hypocrisy. Politics is over the top as always, but for that matter they are simply hiding under the wind of religious leaders.
sorry I butted in this cross-thread.. I am at a loss as to what the rest of U are discussing, or where this stroll is aiming at.. plz carry on

[[deleted user]]

Maria wrote: "Shannon - Cesar and I made our peace and moved on a while back.

So, your attempt to rile us back up and demand explanations for what we said to each other is futile. Sorry, you'll have to sprea..."


I was posting as I read, Maria ... no time to check the thread throughout the day today.

But, I get it.

You see and judge condescension in others. You see and judge hypocrisy in others.

Crystal clear.

[[deleted user]]

Dan's wrote: "@ Shannon: well now for me Religion is nowadays a by-product of hypocrisy. Politics is over the top as always, but for that matter they are simply hiding under the wind of religious leaders.
sorry I butted in this cross-thread.. I am at a loss as to what the rest of U are discussing, or where this stroll is aiming at.. plz carry on "


Hey, there, Dan. No need to be sorry about coming into the discussion. You know me from elsewhere and know I think everyone should have a voice.

Personally, I don't think all religion is hypocritical. Some, yes ... some parts, at least. I do find a lot of hypocrisy in American politics, on all sides. And, of course, there's hypocrisy all over the place, in every area of our lives.

I have a problem with hypocrisy in general, not just with regard to certain things (religion) and certain people.

Hope all is well where you are. Take care. S

[Maria]

Shannon said: "You see and judge condescension in others. You see and judge hypocrisy in others."

And, obviously, Shannon - so do you. Good, we're past that.

Any pertinent comments on what Mary, Travis, Leiah, and I have been discussing?

How about some comments about what we're actually talking about, like the hypocrisy of Christians celebrating pagan holidays, or maybe people claiming to be Catholics who also have pre-marital sex and use birth control?

No? OK then, who else has insulted, patronized or misquoted you that you'd like to call out?

Since this thread has lately become the "poor, misunderstood Shannon" show.

[[deleted user]]

Maria wrote: "And yes, I've made many attempts to "guide the discussion" - more than once because you kept hounding people over silly things like whether they used a comma or a semi-colon and why their choice constituted a personal affront to you and your heritage (sorry, being sarcastic here), rather than contributing to what was actually being discussed. "

You're forgetting the man from India, though, right?

And, I don't hound people over commas and semi-colons. So, you're either confusing me with someone else or misrepresenting me.

I have hounded people over their hypocrisy, though. Which makes this all the more interesting. What did you say when you first joined us? Something about finding this thread so amusing and entertaining. Enjoying winding people up and seeing how they'd react. Yeah. I'm pretty sure that's what you said ... about three times.

While this is neither here nor there when it comes to the question of the thread, it is on point when discussing hypocrisy.

[Maria]

Rather than commenting on the topic at hand, you are bringing up things I've said over a year ago. I'm glad you have such a good memory.

When I first joined "us"? I was here long before you. I know it's comforting for you to think you were one of the original posters here.. But you weren't.

[Dan's]

Well I was about to make a point here, or at least answer to Shannon, but I am gonna make up some room for the cat-fight that is about to follow.

In any case I am pretty tired.. and things couldn't get worse here btw.. Carry on

[[deleted user]]

Maria wrote: "Any pertinent comments on what Mary, Travis, Leiah, and I have been discussing?"


Like what? Your comments regarding cHriS?

The "Shannon show" .... Hypocrisy.... Weren't you the one who, a few days ago, told people they needed to respond to you else you'd go elsewhere?

Guessing you're in a playful mood tonight and want to joke around.

Now, I did give a thoughtful response to what Elaine wanted to talk about. I know that wasn't what you were discussing, but ....

Regarding, ...

"How about some comments about what we're actually talking about, like the hypocrisy of Christians celebrating pagan holidays, or maybe people claiming to be Catholics who also have pre-marital sex and use birth control?"

I've already discussed Christians and pagan celebrations with you in the past.

I've also actually discussed your judgments regarding Christians in the past.

But, I suppose I can do it again, at least the latter.

Hypocrisy isn't just found within the religious and religion. It's everywhere.

I don't care for it.

Having said that, ... it's not for me to label people. If someone says she's Catholic, that's her business. If she chooses that label for herself, that's her choice. It's not for me, in my opinion, to say she's not Catholic due to ... whatever. I know, in the past, you've said such people aren't Catholic, aren't Christian, etc.... I simply disagree with the idea that one person can label others in that way ... or, rather, argue the labels they give themselves.

Simply talking hypocrisy.... Yes. A practicing Catholic who does the deed with a condom is being hypocritical.

This is why I had my name taken off the United Methodist rolls. Well, not due to the deed and condoms. Hypocrisy. Their first tenet is to go forth and make disciples for Christ. As I've said about 35 times in the past year or more, my American Indian ancestry cries out against that. I'm not okay with that belief. That one must go forth and make disciples for Christ. My personal views regarding religion/spirituality aren't inline with Christianity; I believe people from all religions know truths about "God". So, yeah.... I took my name off the rolls and haven't been to or supported a church for years and years.

But, the kicker is ... that's my choice. While I would consider myself a hypocrite if I went to the UMC for the community, etc... and don't, I was the one who defined myself and refused to define myself in a way that I didn't feel was honest.

Other people...? It's their choice. It's on their conscience. It's not for me to say.

[[deleted user]]

Maria wrote: "When I first joined "us"? I was here long before you. I know it's comforting for you to think you were one of the original posters here.. But you weren't.
"


Oh, .... I was absolutely not one of the original posters. This thread was up and running for a year or more before I ever found it. Of the people who still take part here, I remember seeing Hazel, Cerebus, Travis and, I think, Shanna, when I first started following. I'm pretty sure some of them, if not all of them, were among the original posters.

I simply remember when you started posting. That's all. It was pretty memorable ... given what you said.

But, hey, if you say you were posting here long before that, that's your choice. No problem. Must be I'm wrong.

[Maria]

"Guessing you're in a playful mood tonight and want to joke around."

Somewhat correct. Thanks for humoring me.

"Weren't you the one who, a few days ago, told people they needed to respond to you else you'd go elsewhere?"

Yes, I found it frustrating that I kept commenting and no one even acknowledged me. Surely you can relate.

I actually had no idea that UMC promoted going therefore and making disciples. I have never had a Methodist come to my door trying to convert me.

They preach from house to house? Not in my neighborhood.

Actually Jesus said at Matthew 28:19 - Go therefore and make disciples, baptising them etc etc

His disciples preached from house to house - going forth in twos. Jesus proseletized, and instructed his disciples to do the same.

So if Christians are "footstep followers of Jesus" should not they be preaching from door to door?

And yes, my "Catholic" co-worker can label herself anything she wants. But I don't buy it, and I bet God doesn't either.

[Maria]

Shannon, it's not a contest. We've all been here a while, and I think we know each other pretty well. I think if we met in person, we'd probably become friends.

[[deleted user]]

Maria wrote: "I actually had no idea that UMC promoted going therefore and making disciples. I have never had a Methodist come to my door trying to convert me. "


I was confirmed in the UMC when I was in the 8th grade. I don't remember a ton about our teachings within confirmation classes.

When I first moved to my present town, well ... a few years in ... I thought about joining the UMC here. I went to some of the services. People began asking me to become a member. I asked for reading material.

That was their primary tenet. I remember reading it and talking with the pastor about it. I told her I wouldn't join due to that tenet. I explained. She reminded me, which I knew, that the UMW is very liberal, honors and respects questioning, etc.... She said many join and belong who don't believe in or agree with all of the tenets.

Well, I told her that was them. I couldn't and wouldn't do it. And, ... I began to feel uncomfortable and that I didn't fit within the church, any church, and stopped attending at all.

Do they go door to door? We'd have to ask all of the UMC communities. Here? They've been known to, yes. In the past, they've offered to do chores and whatnot for people on their street, wearing their UMW t-shirts. They've had a table at parades/celebrations and such. And, yes, they've even gone door to door ... and have left little fliers in doors welcoming people to attend. But, that's just here.

[[deleted user]]

Maria wrote: "Shannon, it's not a contest. We've all been here a while, and I think we know each other pretty well. I think if we met in person, we'd probably become friends."


Maria....

I don't think it is.... You made an accusation. A false one. I responded. If you make a false accusation about someone, that person does have the choice to respond. I'm, by far, not one of the first posters.

Maybe ... instead of judging ... we could discuss an issue.

Or, band together and discuss what we think of the phrase "cat-fight" ....

[Travis]

Dan's wrote: "Well I was about to make a point here, or at least answer to Shannon, but I am gonna make up some room for the cat-fight that is about to follow.

In any case I am pretty tired.. and thing..."


Stick around. I'm making popcorn.

[Travis]

chris wrote: "They can call each other what ever they like, as long as I am not obliged to take them seriously."

which, oddly enough is pretty much how I feel about religion.

[[deleted user]]

Cat-fight...

I wonder....

Is there a similar phrase to describe men, with similar connotations?

Not rhetorical. Scanning my brain and can't think of one. Of course, I'm somewhat distracted by Remember the Titans.

[Maria]

Shannon, lets band together and have some of Travis's popcorn. You and I have had lots of discussions - none of which I'd call a catfight!

[[deleted user]]

Maria wrote: "Shannon, lets band together and have some if dans popcorn. You and I have had lots of discussions - none of which I'd call a catfight!"

Think Travis is the one talking of popcorn....

Discussions and fights ....

Cat-fight... Not a phrase I use.

Still trying to think of any similar phrases, with similar connotations, for the males of the species.

If you think of any, let me know.

Donnybrook ... nah ...

Frankly, ... I'd rather they use "donnybrook" ....

Go, Bruins, while I'm at it.

[Maria]

Travis, I'm shocked!

[Maria]

I know, I misread - I changed my post to credit good ole Travis with the popcorn thing - which is actually pretty funny. Glad we're entertaining everyone!

[Shanna]

cHriS wrote: "Shanna wrote: "cHriS, do you have a problem with same sex couples using the terms husband/wife to describe their partners?"

Why do I feel that this is a trick question?

Scott Capurro is a gay Am..."

Just curious if your attachment extended to the other words associated with marriage. No trick :) just curious.

Why wouldn't you take it seriously if a man or woman in a civil union refers to their partner seriously as husband or wife?

[Shanna]

Oh and hi Dan's

[Maria]

'Cause technically they're not?

[Shanna]

Maria wrote: "'Cause technically they're not?"

Well arguably they are if they formed a legal civil union which is of course what marriage is boiled down to it's essence, a socio-legal contract to form a family unit, which is why I wonder at the objection to calling it a marriage, regardless of the ownership religion sometimes tries to assert.

[Travis]

Maria wrote: "Travis, I'm shocked!"

Me too.
Nothing good on TV and you guys are being annoyingly reasonable and mature.

feels like a waste of popcorn.

[[deleted user]]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBkvn...

[Maria]

Oh, they can call it whatever they want. It doesn't really matter to anyone except them.

[Maria]

Ha! Shannon, trav thinks we're reasonable and mature! Fooled him! :)

[[deleted user]]

Maria wrote: "Ha! Shannon, trav thinks we're reasonable and mature! Fooled him! :)"


Sorry.... I was watching Bruins fights on YouTube.