Angels & Demons
discussion
Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion?
Ken wrote: "Has anyone on this thread read this:
Religion Explained: The Evolutionary Origins of Religious Thought
by Pascal Boyer"
I haven't, no.
I did read a recent article in Scientific American that claimed humans developed religious beliefs/religion when their brains became more complex. Jared Diamond discussed that in his most recent book. Some say the religious are less intelligent. Ironically, it seems many in the field of science are leaning toward the opposite ... to a certain extent. A more complex brain leading to ....
Religion Explained: The Evolutionary Origins of Religious Thought
by Pascal Boyer"
I haven't, no.
I did read a recent article in Scientific American that claimed humans developed religious beliefs/religion when their brains became more complex. Jared Diamond discussed that in his most recent book. Some say the religious are less intelligent. Ironically, it seems many in the field of science are leaning toward the opposite ... to a certain extent. A more complex brain leading to ....
Shannon wrote: "cHriS wrote: "Unless of course that absence of belief is not really an absence at all, but is a belief in it’s self. "Well, ....
I, personally, don't think non-believers believe. Not in a super..."
I think it might be simpler than that especially for your average active theist. I think it might be an inability to envision life without worship of some sort.
We do not practice medicine the way people did 3500 years ago, we do not live in the type of houses and cities people did 3500 yrs ago, we don't communicate the way we did 3500 yes ago, we don't even look at the night sky the Same way people did 3500 yrs ago. We wouldnt dream of " bleeding" someone who is ill, we dont insist the sun revolves around the Earth, and we certainly don't believe the Earth is flat. We all recognize that knowledge has progressed, our understanding of the world has progressed. But we can't believe that maybe our perception about a god should progress as well. Maybe the Bible, The Koran, The Torah were written by men, to explain an unexplainable world. Maybe there is no vengeful, all powerful white haired man sitting on a throne in the clouds.
Mary wrote: "We do not practice medicine the way people did 3500 years ago, we do not live in the type of houses and cities people did 3500 yrs ago, we don't communicate the way we did 3500 yes ago, we don't e..."Some of our ideas on religion have moved on, as you don't here much about Zues, Horus and Thor these days ( aside from the movie, I mean), but while most people scoff at those silly myths, they can't let go of the man in the sky.
Mary wrote: "Maybe the Bible, The Koran, The Torah were written by men, to explain an unexplainable world. Maybe there is no vengeful, all powerful white haired man sitting on a throne in the clouds. "
Maybe there's a Great Spirit, a power, that exists within all living things. No white hair necessary.
(As an aside, they are using "bleeding" tactics again ... in some situations. It's rather interesting. Leeches were used with one of my students.... I'm not saying we should go back to practicing medicine as it was done thousands of years ago. But, I'm always struck by how much our ancestors actually knew. Things that worked amazingly well. And, ... some of the structures that were built thousands of years ago were built so "perfectly" our builders, supposedly, can't match the craftsmanship. It simply amazes me that they were able, some of our ancestors, to accomplish such feats without the modern technology, etc... that we have today.)
Maybe there's a Great Spirit, a power, that exists within all living things. No white hair necessary.
(As an aside, they are using "bleeding" tactics again ... in some situations. It's rather interesting. Leeches were used with one of my students.... I'm not saying we should go back to practicing medicine as it was done thousands of years ago. But, I'm always struck by how much our ancestors actually knew. Things that worked amazingly well. And, ... some of the structures that were built thousands of years ago were built so "perfectly" our builders, supposedly, can't match the craftsmanship. It simply amazes me that they were able, some of our ancestors, to accomplish such feats without the modern technology, etc... that we have today.)
Travis wrote: "they can't let go of the man in the sky. "
Sort of amazing, isn't it? People not letting go of that God, thousands and thousands of years later ... whereas, people let go of other gods.
Wonder why?
Sort of amazing, isn't it? People not letting go of that God, thousands and thousands of years later ... whereas, people let go of other gods.
Wonder why?
Religion is a man-made, structured institution to control masses in a style of worship. Science is a way of thinking subjectively and objectively in search of Truth which is able to stand the test of all scrutiny. I believe man searches for that which is greater than himself, a Creator of all that man has not created. In that scientific quest, it is harder to prove that a Creator does not exist than one does. So, I shall choose a world of science over religion.
Shannon wrote: "Travis wrote: "they can't let go of the man in the sky. "Sort of amazing, isn't it? People not letting go of that God, thousands and thousands of years later ... whereas, people let go of other ..."
Maybe not amazing...maybe understandable. Really, until the last 100 yrs ( and even less) the majority of the world did not have access to education. That was limited to the priviledged or the clergy. Until the last 100 yrs or so, the majority of people did not travel and did not know much about the world or the people in it. Until the last 100 yrs or so, communication was very limited. Telegraph, newspapers, television and now the internet, has brought world news, events and ideas to majority of people's homes. So exposure to new ideas or other ways of life was very limited.
Let's also not the power of indoctrination. The ideas instilled in young children, especially fear, is a very powerful force to overcome, even in adulthood.
Then there is the matter of who had the power in the world. If the majority of the power is possessed by a certain group, then their belief structure is hard to oppose. SOme went along out of fear of going against the norm. Many today are Christians, Jews, Muslims in name only. Not really following the tenants of their religions, but still identifying themselves as such. You know, those who go to church on Christmas and Easter only?
So amazing? No, understandable, yes. But you can see now that churches and religious organizations, including the Catholic Church, see that they have to change to keep members. I won't be here to see it, but I would venture a guess that traditional religion will continue to lose members and religion will evolve into more about human commonalities than a white haired man on a throne.
Mary wrote: "Maybe not amazing...maybe understandable. Really, until the last 100 yrs ( and even less) the majority of the world did not have access to education. That was limited to the priviledged or the clergy. Until the last 100 yrs or so, the majority of people did not travel and did not know much about the world or the people in it. Until the last 100 yrs or so, communication was very limited. "
You have some points, there, Mary. Though, I don't know .... Maybe a bit of both. We'll need more time to see how it plays out. If Christians, Jews, and Muslims still believe in the same God into the future a bit more, it might be a bit amazing ... or amazing. After all, for example, the Roman Empire was still in play when they gave up the old gods for the Christian God. So, ... I'm not sure power structure is the only answer, in and of itself.
Regarding the 100 years ago points, ... to a certain extent. Yes. For sure.
Having said that, I recently saw a news story dealing with the fact that a ridiculously low number of Americans know who is the Vice President. With all of our technology, TV programs, newspapers, the Internet, etc..., I'm not sure that people are as educated in certain areas. I'd almost bet my next paycheck that the overwhelming percentage of Americans in the late 1700's and the 1800's could identify the Vice President. While many people in more recent years never left home, that's not necessarily the case historically. I mean, I know I had great-uncles and great-grandfathers, great-great etc..., who, literally, stayed in the same town almost all their lives. Maybe went a town over from time to time. Left during times of war. That was it. But, I also think of some of the travel done way, way back ... during the Roman Empire. Shoot. The Phoenicians, going way back. The Mongols and Huns. The Silk Road. I think (and this has nothing to do with religion) our ancestors, some of them, did a heck of a lot more moving and shaking than we give them credit for ... might even have been a damn-sight smarter than some of the Americans hanging out on the street corners tonight, texting and not knowing what countries border America.
You have some points, there, Mary. Though, I don't know .... Maybe a bit of both. We'll need more time to see how it plays out. If Christians, Jews, and Muslims still believe in the same God into the future a bit more, it might be a bit amazing ... or amazing. After all, for example, the Roman Empire was still in play when they gave up the old gods for the Christian God. So, ... I'm not sure power structure is the only answer, in and of itself.
Regarding the 100 years ago points, ... to a certain extent. Yes. For sure.
Having said that, I recently saw a news story dealing with the fact that a ridiculously low number of Americans know who is the Vice President. With all of our technology, TV programs, newspapers, the Internet, etc..., I'm not sure that people are as educated in certain areas. I'd almost bet my next paycheck that the overwhelming percentage of Americans in the late 1700's and the 1800's could identify the Vice President. While many people in more recent years never left home, that's not necessarily the case historically. I mean, I know I had great-uncles and great-grandfathers, great-great etc..., who, literally, stayed in the same town almost all their lives. Maybe went a town over from time to time. Left during times of war. That was it. But, I also think of some of the travel done way, way back ... during the Roman Empire. Shoot. The Phoenicians, going way back. The Mongols and Huns. The Silk Road. I think (and this has nothing to do with religion) our ancestors, some of them, did a heck of a lot more moving and shaking than we give them credit for ... might even have been a damn-sight smarter than some of the Americans hanging out on the street corners tonight, texting and not knowing what countries border America.
It's not really amazing that those people let go of those gods Zeus, Thor and Horus. It was called christianity and forced conversions, it wasn't really a let go so much as convert or suffer the consequence. Though I concede that some might not have been forced. Same thing happened to, Quetzacoatl, the native american spirits, Cernunnos, Pele, Australian Aboriginie spirits, African Spirits/gods....
cHriS wrote: "Atheists love to compare God with a FSM, so why do we not have a name for those people who do not believe in FSMonsters?"We do...atheists. I'm just atheistic about one more god than you.
Ken wrote: "Has anyone on this thread read this:Religion Explained: The Evolutionary Origins of Religious Thought
by Pascal Boyer"
Yes, not that long ago. Excellent book.
Shanna wrote: "It's not really amazing that those people let go of those gods Zeus, Thor and Horus. It was called christianity and forced conversions, it wasn't really a let go so much as convert or suffer the co..."
True, though .... You're leaving out the years during which the Romans held with the old gods and killed thousands of Christians for practicing the new faith. A people who, despite that insane persecution, held to their faith. Leadership who let go of the old gods in favor of Christianity.
I find all of that to be interesting.
I'm also the first, as you're aware, to speak out against forced conversion. Other things happened prior to that.... Including a movement that began in a VERY voluntary way.
True, though .... You're leaving out the years during which the Romans held with the old gods and killed thousands of Christians for practicing the new faith. A people who, despite that insane persecution, held to their faith. Leadership who let go of the old gods in favor of Christianity.
I find all of that to be interesting.
I'm also the first, as you're aware, to speak out against forced conversion. Other things happened prior to that.... Including a movement that began in a VERY voluntary way.
I didn't leave it out, it wasn't pertinent, that "god" is still around, so to speak. I don't think the letting go of old gods was any more than a political move, a recognizing of which way the wind was blowing in the populace. Calculated, political move and not a move based on faith, if there had been more value in worshiping the old god we might still worship Zeus/Jupiter...
I agree it's fascinating.
I agree also that early christianity was a very different beast, it's been a long time since then...
Shanna wrote: "I agree also that early christianity was a very different beast, it's been a long time since then... "
Perhaps ....
I think the beginnings are pertinent to giving up the old gods. Yes, as it was spread to places like the present-day UK, etc... it was forced conversion. But, I don't think, historically, that it began that way in "Rome" at the time the old gods were given up. And, after all, there'd not be Christians if it weren't for those first people. It's a complicated topic. Yes, it was likely a calculated political move at the highest levels of the Roman government. Most likely. But, one wonders at how and why the "wind was blowing in the populace" ... given the level of persecution at the outset and for years following. It was lethal to be a Christian. Interesting that so many would risk all ... to the point that the people in the immediate area and the government would give up the old gods.
Perhaps ....
I think the beginnings are pertinent to giving up the old gods. Yes, as it was spread to places like the present-day UK, etc... it was forced conversion. But, I don't think, historically, that it began that way in "Rome" at the time the old gods were given up. And, after all, there'd not be Christians if it weren't for those first people. It's a complicated topic. Yes, it was likely a calculated political move at the highest levels of the Roman government. Most likely. But, one wonders at how and why the "wind was blowing in the populace" ... given the level of persecution at the outset and for years following. It was lethal to be a Christian. Interesting that so many would risk all ... to the point that the people in the immediate area and the government would give up the old gods.
cerebus wrote: ""To choose unbelief is to choose mind over dogma, to trust in our humanity instead of all these dangerous divinities.""
Interestingly, when I was born and for my first several years, I wasn't encouraged to believe in God. My parents never mentioned God; we never went to church, etc.... My grandparents didn't attend church, on either side. Nor did my aunts and uncles. I'm not aware that we had any contact with religious folk. Further, I wasn't a fanciful child, believe it or not. No favorite toy. Blanket. No imaginary friends. Didn't believe in monsters. Etc....
Yet, all on my own, I started talking about the light and the people in the light who were watching over me. After that point, my mother, who thought I was talking about God, decided to tell me of religion and take me to church, even though she wasn't raised in the church. That's when I first heard the term ... "God" .... She got a children's Bible and showed me the picture of God Mary described earlier. I laughed and laughed and told her that wasn't it. There was just a light, with people I couldn't see but knew were there.
I was around four or five.
As an aside ....
For some, it's not about dogma ... even at the start.
Interestingly, when I was born and for my first several years, I wasn't encouraged to believe in God. My parents never mentioned God; we never went to church, etc.... My grandparents didn't attend church, on either side. Nor did my aunts and uncles. I'm not aware that we had any contact with religious folk. Further, I wasn't a fanciful child, believe it or not. No favorite toy. Blanket. No imaginary friends. Didn't believe in monsters. Etc....
Yet, all on my own, I started talking about the light and the people in the light who were watching over me. After that point, my mother, who thought I was talking about God, decided to tell me of religion and take me to church, even though she wasn't raised in the church. That's when I first heard the term ... "God" .... She got a children's Bible and showed me the picture of God Mary described earlier. I laughed and laughed and told her that wasn't it. There was just a light, with people I couldn't see but knew were there.
I was around four or five.
As an aside ....
For some, it's not about dogma ... even at the start.
Shannon wrote: "For some, it's not about dogma ... even at the start."And that's fair enough :)
cerebus wrote: "Shannon wrote: "For some, it's not about dogma ... even at the start."
And that's fair enough :)"
Thanks for acknowledging that. I appreciate it.
And that's fair enough :)"
Thanks for acknowledging that. I appreciate it.
Martyrdom makes a religion legitimate? That's an argument that can be made for many many religions. People hanging on to persecuted religions makes the religion legitimate? Really, Santoria any native faith suffering forced conversion. Argument ad populum. Just because an idea is tenacious does make it valid. At the time of the transition from the old state gods to the christian god I think the case could be made that christianities days of persecution were largely over.
Shanna wrote: "Martyrdom makes a religion legitimate? That's an argument that can be made for many many religions. People hanging on to persecuted religions makes the religion legitimate? Really, Santoria any nat..."
Gosh.... I wasn't aware that I said all of that. I guess I need to re-read my posts.
Gosh.... I wasn't aware that I said all of that. I guess I need to re-read my posts.
It's all in the Subtext when you "wonder" why God endures, in the face of persecution, in the subtext as a believer are you not, crediting the tenaciousness of the idea as lending a validity to the belief?"Sort of amazing, isn't it? People not letting go of that God, thousands and thousands of years later ... whereas, people let go of other gods.
Wonder why?"
"Most likely. But, one wonders at how and why the "wind was blowing in the populace" ... given the level of persecution at the outset and for years following. It was lethal to be a Christian. Interesting that so many would risk all ... to the point that the people in the immediate area and the government would give up the old gods."
Is it not the subtext here?
People believe all sorts of things are prepared to take risks for those beliefs and many of those beliefs are demonstrably not true. To use it as an argument to support christianity... When many sects have been persecuted does it make those sects valid too?
I don't think there could ever be a world with science/religion, We are naturally curious people, we can't not know...
Ken wrote: "Has anyone on this thread read this:Religion Explained: The Evolutionary Origins of Religious Thought
by Pascal Boyer"
Just went and bought it thanks for the rec.
Rachel wrote: "I don't think there could ever be a world with science/religion, We are naturally curious people, we can't not know..."So which bit of the not-knowing does religion help with?
Shanna wrote: "To use it as an argument to support christianity... When many sects have been persecuted does it make those sects valid too? "
You're making some serious assumptions, Shanna ... even given evidence that says otherwise.
You might want to check out Post 10808 and take into account everything I've said here over the last two years. In addition, you might consider the fact that I was discussing Christianity, for example, given the fact that Travis was using his "man in the sky" barb and Mary kept mentioning white hair.
I mentioned a different faith, that of Great Spirit, which has also been in existence for thousands and thousands of years and is usually totally and completely ignored here. And, I was mentioning something I found interesting about the faith Travis and Mary were focused upon.
Regarding your assumption, .... Yes, many people believe in many things. That's very obvious. Some believe to the point that they're willing to die. True. While that, in and of itself, doesn't prove the belief true, it also doesn't prove it untrue. For me, it makes it a fascinating point to consider.
You're making some serious assumptions, Shanna ... even given evidence that says otherwise.
You might want to check out Post 10808 and take into account everything I've said here over the last two years. In addition, you might consider the fact that I was discussing Christianity, for example, given the fact that Travis was using his "man in the sky" barb and Mary kept mentioning white hair.
I mentioned a different faith, that of Great Spirit, which has also been in existence for thousands and thousands of years and is usually totally and completely ignored here. And, I was mentioning something I found interesting about the faith Travis and Mary were focused upon.
Regarding your assumption, .... Yes, many people believe in many things. That's very obvious. Some believe to the point that they're willing to die. True. While that, in and of itself, doesn't prove the belief true, it also doesn't prove it untrue. For me, it makes it a fascinating point to consider.
cerebus wrote: "Rachel wrote: "I don't think there could ever be a world with science/religion, We are naturally curious people, we can't not know..."
So which bit of the not-knowing does religion help with?"
Remember the Diamond book and the part about the Jewish women being bombed, ....
They didn't know what was going to become of their families. Would they be bombed and killed? The secular Jewish women didn't turn to religion and prayer but dealt with their stress in secular ways. The religious Jewish women turned to prayer.
Scientific studies, if I read Diamond correctly, show the women who turned to prayer suffered fewer mental health issues and faired much better, psychologically speaking.
I'd say that's a "not knowing" that religion helped with.
So which bit of the not-knowing does religion help with?"
Remember the Diamond book and the part about the Jewish women being bombed, ....
They didn't know what was going to become of their families. Would they be bombed and killed? The secular Jewish women didn't turn to religion and prayer but dealt with their stress in secular ways. The religious Jewish women turned to prayer.
Scientific studies, if I read Diamond correctly, show the women who turned to prayer suffered fewer mental health issues and faired much better, psychologically speaking.
I'd say that's a "not knowing" that religion helped with.
Shannon wrote: I, personally, don't think non-believers believe.."
I think they do, but......
....it is like being Colour blind; there is an inability or decreased ability to see colour. In the same way the non believers ability to believe (the 'God Spot')has in some way been lost.
Travis wrote: We invented god .."...so he really does exist.
This is a very hard question to answer, because either way there would be good and bad points. I am not a religious person, but I have to admit that sometimes religion does have a good effect on people. Organized religion can benefit people by giving them something to believe in and to model themselves after(this is part of the problem as well). In addition religion promotes togetherness and charitable acts. On the other hand, Organized religion when taken to the extreme can promote hate, judgment, murder, and greed. Now, Science has its own good and bad points. Because of science we have cures for diseases and people are living longer, We have the technology to accomplish whatever we set our minds to. However, technology is a double edged sword. Because of technology we have pollution, and poison in our foods. We cut down trees in order to build factories. We have companies, like Monsanto genetically modifying our food. What this world needs is simply for people to open their eyes and see what is going on. At that point Religion and science could exist harmoniously, and there would be no reason to pose this question....
Shanna wrote: I think it might be simpler than that especially for your average active theist. I think it might be an inability to envision life without worship of some sort. ."
That sounds like a double negative.
And why does the belief in a creator have to be connected with worship?
Only in your mind.....
cHriS wrote: "Travis wrote: We invented god .."...so he really does exist."
Yes, in the same way Harry Potter exists. I mean I can find a picture of Harry Potter, I can find books about him, I can tell you his history, I can tell you where he was born,I can even find people who worship him and believe him to have special powers. I can also not find anyone who has truly met him. SO yes, I guess Harry Potter and god both exist in the same way.
cerebus wrote: We do...atheists. I'm just atheistic about one more god than you.."Well wiki says "Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities".
You can reject the belief in God, even though you are not able to prove that a creator does not exist.
But since you know for sure that the FSM does not exist and so is not a belief but more a parody, the word Atheist does not apply when giving a name to someone who does not believe in a FSM.
Mary wrote:SO yes, I guess Harry Potter and god both exist in the same way. .."
.... you will be telling me next that there are no such things as angels.
Yes and in another two thousands people won't believe the UK had a lady Prime Minister or that man landed on the moon, and we won't be around to tell them what we really know.
As you said Chris... You cannot prove any diety does not exist. The FSM, Buddaha, Jesus, Vishnu ... You name it. You can't prove they don't exist. So you just pick your favorite one and believe away... And others pick a different one.and all will claim to know the truth, and their god is the correct one. And so goes this circular argument...
Mary wrote: "As you said Chris... You cannot prove any diety does not exist. The FSM, Buddaha, Jesus, Vishnu ... You name it. You can't prove they don't exist. So you just pick your favorite one and believe aw...And others pick a different one.and all will claim to know the truth, and their god is the correct one. And so goes this circular argument... "
...not so, you are getting your Harry Potter, your Jesus, your Buddaha and your FSM confused with a creator.
cHriS wrote: "Mary wrote: "As you said Chris... You cannot prove any diety does not exist. The FSM, Buddaha, Jesus, Vishnu ... You name it. You can't prove they don't exist. So you just pick your favorite one a..."Prove it Chris. Prove that the FSM doesn't exist, or that the creator of your choice does exist. You yourself said you can't prove a god doesn't exist. And you can't prove one does exist. So sounds very chicken-or-the-egg circular argument to me.
Proof ....
A couple months ago, I knew my grandfather was going to die. He'd been sick two months before, but he was, supposedly, doing fine. I was walking through my kitchen and, a couple days before it happened, I had this "voice" inside myself that said, "Your grandfather is going to die on your birthday." I stopped short. No way. He was fine. Fine. I said, "No, he'd never die on my birthday." Then, I got, "Okay. He's going to die the day before your birthday." Instead of getting in my car and driving to see him, I called my parents to talk about it and see if he was okay. Fine. Sure enough, he died of a heart attack the day before my birthday.
I could go on and on with these types of stories. Times when, I was going about my everyday business and all of a sudden doubled over in extreme pain, crying ... without meaning to, etc.... Knowing, in that moment, that someone was dying. Right then. We're not talking about times when I've been in a hospital with someone who is dying. I've never experienced that. We're talking people dying sometimes states away and sometimes without even showing signs of illness. When that happens and I call my parents, etc... the answer is ... we'll call you when we know. And, ... every time ... every single time ... I get a call within an hour telling me who just died.
Proof? Oh, I know. Anecdote and I could be full of it, right. There is the fact that everyone who knows me knows I'm different and know things I couldn't really know. I've been seen as a liar when I've admitted it, a circus sideshow ... I'm thinking of a color, a number, a ... what is it (not something I do), or as a, what, witch or monster of some kind. No joke. It's not fun and it's not funny. Believe me. Especially when folding laundry and out of the blue feel, literally, like you're dying. How to tell what's you and what's not?
Would any scientist even attempt to do tests with me or, shudder, on me to try to figure out what this might be? Is it something with my brain? If so, what? I mean, seriously. And, ... how? Have me hooked up to monitors 24/7 in case someone dies and I feel it and ...? Right? Truly, how would that be tested? It wouldn't be the asinine, in my opinion, psychic tests of looking at a card with a wave and seeing if the person picks wave. That's not what this is ... it's something elemental and regarding the people I'm connected with ... people in my family, friends, coworkers, etc....
Some would say it's impossible. Right? I've seen a lot of people say there's no way this sort of thing could be true. They'd say I was attention seeking or delusional or .... They'd say there's a bigger chance the flying spaghetti yahoo was real. Right?
I could say, "It's true. It's true and you can't prove it's not."
They'd say, "You can't prove it doesn't exist. How do you prove a negative?"
When I sit back and think about my experience, it seems similar to the web of life that my American Indian ancestors believed in. The idea of a Great Spirit that inhabits all of us and the concept that we're all connected ... that what hurts one will hurt all others. Yes, maybe it's about brain function, though I wonder.... How and why would my brain pick up on the deaths of loved ones? How and why did my brain know my grandfather would die on the day he did ... four days before it happened? How and why would I pick up on a death across the country when the person didn't even know he was sick? How, exactly, could a brain pick up on something like that?
I don't have the answer, obviously. Maybe it's spiritual; maybe it's my brain.
I share this to say ....
There are things that happen, truly happen, that can't be proven scientifically. Welcome to my life. There are things that happen that we can't explain. We just don't have all of the answers. Would my life be easier if I had the answers to what this might be? Yes. How to use it or shut it off? Yes. How to protect myself from the constant hits I take as a result? Yes. But, guess what? There are no answers.
Am I saying ... God of the Gaps ... that means it's God.
No.
I'm saying ... it just ... it doesn't make sense to me. Watching people be so totally and completely sure that they have an answer or the answer and that they're right and that ....
Maybe I'm in the minority. Maybe most people live lives in which things are black and white and explained and scientifically proven or else they don't exist. I don't have that luxury and know life isn't that simple.
A couple months ago, I knew my grandfather was going to die. He'd been sick two months before, but he was, supposedly, doing fine. I was walking through my kitchen and, a couple days before it happened, I had this "voice" inside myself that said, "Your grandfather is going to die on your birthday." I stopped short. No way. He was fine. Fine. I said, "No, he'd never die on my birthday." Then, I got, "Okay. He's going to die the day before your birthday." Instead of getting in my car and driving to see him, I called my parents to talk about it and see if he was okay. Fine. Sure enough, he died of a heart attack the day before my birthday.
I could go on and on with these types of stories. Times when, I was going about my everyday business and all of a sudden doubled over in extreme pain, crying ... without meaning to, etc.... Knowing, in that moment, that someone was dying. Right then. We're not talking about times when I've been in a hospital with someone who is dying. I've never experienced that. We're talking people dying sometimes states away and sometimes without even showing signs of illness. When that happens and I call my parents, etc... the answer is ... we'll call you when we know. And, ... every time ... every single time ... I get a call within an hour telling me who just died.
Proof? Oh, I know. Anecdote and I could be full of it, right. There is the fact that everyone who knows me knows I'm different and know things I couldn't really know. I've been seen as a liar when I've admitted it, a circus sideshow ... I'm thinking of a color, a number, a ... what is it (not something I do), or as a, what, witch or monster of some kind. No joke. It's not fun and it's not funny. Believe me. Especially when folding laundry and out of the blue feel, literally, like you're dying. How to tell what's you and what's not?
Would any scientist even attempt to do tests with me or, shudder, on me to try to figure out what this might be? Is it something with my brain? If so, what? I mean, seriously. And, ... how? Have me hooked up to monitors 24/7 in case someone dies and I feel it and ...? Right? Truly, how would that be tested? It wouldn't be the asinine, in my opinion, psychic tests of looking at a card with a wave and seeing if the person picks wave. That's not what this is ... it's something elemental and regarding the people I'm connected with ... people in my family, friends, coworkers, etc....
Some would say it's impossible. Right? I've seen a lot of people say there's no way this sort of thing could be true. They'd say I was attention seeking or delusional or .... They'd say there's a bigger chance the flying spaghetti yahoo was real. Right?
I could say, "It's true. It's true and you can't prove it's not."
They'd say, "You can't prove it doesn't exist. How do you prove a negative?"
When I sit back and think about my experience, it seems similar to the web of life that my American Indian ancestors believed in. The idea of a Great Spirit that inhabits all of us and the concept that we're all connected ... that what hurts one will hurt all others. Yes, maybe it's about brain function, though I wonder.... How and why would my brain pick up on the deaths of loved ones? How and why did my brain know my grandfather would die on the day he did ... four days before it happened? How and why would I pick up on a death across the country when the person didn't even know he was sick? How, exactly, could a brain pick up on something like that?
I don't have the answer, obviously. Maybe it's spiritual; maybe it's my brain.
I share this to say ....
There are things that happen, truly happen, that can't be proven scientifically. Welcome to my life. There are things that happen that we can't explain. We just don't have all of the answers. Would my life be easier if I had the answers to what this might be? Yes. How to use it or shut it off? Yes. How to protect myself from the constant hits I take as a result? Yes. But, guess what? There are no answers.
Am I saying ... God of the Gaps ... that means it's God.
No.
I'm saying ... it just ... it doesn't make sense to me. Watching people be so totally and completely sure that they have an answer or the answer and that they're right and that ....
Maybe I'm in the minority. Maybe most people live lives in which things are black and white and explained and scientifically proven or else they don't exist. I don't have that luxury and know life isn't that simple.
Mary wrote:So sounds very chicken-or-the-egg circular argument to me".... are you suggesting that science hasn't sorted the chicken and egg thing yet.
.... and Jesus did exist.
cHriS wrote: "Mary wrote:So sounds very chicken-or-the-egg circular argument to me".... are you suggesting that science hasn't sorted the chicken and egg thing yet.
.... and Jesus did exist."
Evidence?
cHriS wrote: "Shanna wrote: I think it might be simpler than that especially for your average active theist. I think it might be an inability to envision life without worship of some sort. ."
That sounds like a double negative.
And why does the belief in a creator have to be connected with worship? "
What double negative?
And
Did I say that Creator and worship were linked? Did I even use the word creator or even god?
cHriS wrote: "Mary wrote:So sounds very chicken-or-the-egg circular argument to me".... are you suggesting that science hasn't sorted the chicken and egg thing yet.
.... and Jesus did exist."
In what capacity? You cannot prove he is god/son of god/holy spirit. You can only prove that in some book somewhere someone said there was a man named Jesus. That is not proof of a creator. Very rarely in history are stories passed down exactly as they happened, without embellishment or the human need to exaggerate. So you cannot point to anything as proof that Jesus existed at all, or that he existed in the capacity Christians claim he did.
2000 years from now they may dig up a Harry Potter Book and say that a person named Harry potter existed.
Shannon you can only prove that you hear voices in your head. You can not prove it was God, nor can you disprove it was just some portion of your brain conducting the internal dialogue.
Mary wrote: "Shannon you can only prove that you hear voices in your head. You can not prove it was God, nor can you disprove it was just some portion of your brain conducting the internal dialogue. "
Didn't I say that, Mary? Specifically, didn't I say that?
I also said I know what it's like to live in a world where there aren't answers to everything and things aren't proven.
(And, it's not always voices in my head. Though, that would make me seem like a nutter, right? Usually it's the feeling of death; I feel the pain of their death in my body. We can ignore that, though, if you want to ... for some reason.)
Didn't I say that, Mary? Specifically, didn't I say that?
I also said I know what it's like to live in a world where there aren't answers to everything and things aren't proven.
(And, it's not always voices in my head. Though, that would make me seem like a nutter, right? Usually it's the feeling of death; I feel the pain of their death in my body. We can ignore that, though, if you want to ... for some reason.)
cHriS wrote: "Mary wrote:So sounds very chicken-or-the-egg circular argument to me".... are you suggesting that science hasn't sorted the chicken and egg thing yet.
.... and Jesus did exist."
At that period of history, people would write stories about the ideal man; that is all the bible is. It's all a bunch of stories written by various people about what the ideal person should be using characters from the story as examples of an ideal human being. There is little to no chance that Jesus was a real human being, knowing that alone.
Shannon wrote: "Mary wrote: "Shannon you can only prove that you hear voices in your head. You can not prove it was God, nor can you disprove it was just some portion of your brain conducting the internal dialogue..."Yep. And that's exactly what I said too. So? You want to say "I don't know, I don't know" but all your anectdotal evidence is always slanted to one certain viewpoint..So as Shanna pointed out, your subtext gives you away. You started your post with the word "proof..." not with a question mark. I took this to mean what followed would be your proof.
Never heard voices in my head. It's always just me talking. But how do believers decide who actually heard god talking, and who needs meds. A lot of religious stories are very magical and to believe them means you have to suspend reality. If you are clean cut, middle class people might nod that yes yes god spoke to you. But a bedraggled, homeless guy shouting in the park? He's just crazy right? If the Jesus of the bible showed up at your school saying the things Jesus said, looking like Jesus looked ( he would look Arab) security would be called.
Mary wrote: "Yep. And that's exactly what I said too. So? You want to say "I don't know, I don't know" but all your anectdotal evidence is always slanted to one certain viewpoint."
I shared my experience, Mary. It's not a slanted viewpoint. It's fact. This is part of my life, always has been, with a detrimental impact sometimes. I think it seems like American Indian beliefs, but it might be the brain. I don't know.
Dot, dot, dot versus question marks?
I wonder....
Were my posts written with a certain viewpoint that I give away? Or, did you read them with a certain viewpoint in mind?
The point.... I know, given my experience, that everything isn't black and white, proven and non-existent, and I wonder at people who think it is that simple.
Unless, ... such sharing might be inconvenient given the popular and accepted narrative.
I shared my experience, Mary. It's not a slanted viewpoint. It's fact. This is part of my life, always has been, with a detrimental impact sometimes. I think it seems like American Indian beliefs, but it might be the brain. I don't know.
Dot, dot, dot versus question marks?
I wonder....
Were my posts written with a certain viewpoint that I give away? Or, did you read them with a certain viewpoint in mind?
The point.... I know, given my experience, that everything isn't black and white, proven and non-existent, and I wonder at people who think it is that simple.
Unless, ... such sharing might be inconvenient given the popular and accepted narrative.
Mary wrote: "Never heard voices in my head. It's always just me talking. But how do believers decide who actually heard god talking, and who needs meds. A lot of religious stories are very magical and to belie..."
Wild guess, but ....
I think it might have to do with content and accuracy, though whether it's definitively seen as God talking or something unknown would depend upon the person.
Unless, of course, some would advocate that it not have anything to do with content and accuracy. Medicate all. I suppose that would fit in, to a large extent, with the times. And, hey, if we medicated those people, including myself, everyone would fit nicely into the squares and round holes ... no need to question or deal with a level of discomfort. After all, humans don't really like the unknown. Maybe it's best to shut it down, medicate it or ....
Wild guess, but ....
I think it might have to do with content and accuracy, though whether it's definitively seen as God talking or something unknown would depend upon the person.
Unless, of course, some would advocate that it not have anything to do with content and accuracy. Medicate all. I suppose that would fit in, to a large extent, with the times. And, hey, if we medicated those people, including myself, everyone would fit nicely into the squares and round holes ... no need to question or deal with a level of discomfort. After all, humans don't really like the unknown. Maybe it's best to shut it down, medicate it or ....
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Well, ....
I, personally, don't think non-believers believe. Not in a supernatural power at least. When some say "Atheists" believe and have their own religion, I get uncomfortable. (I know you didn't say that.) I don't think that's accurate, in and of itself.
However, I can see why some would think non-believers believe. Some non-believers express a quasi-religious zealotry regarding religion that leads people to think they believe in a religious way. They don't understand there are more non-believers than the most vocal ones.
I've known some non-believers throughout my life. Family members, co-workers, etc.... They simply lived their lives, beside everyone else. Didn't attend church, didn't pray, etc.... That wasn't for them. However, they could, frankly, care less that others did believe, did go to church, and did pray. That was never voiced as an issue. They, during the pledge or something, wouldn't say the words "under God" and didn't wish people a Merry Christmas, etc.... However, they didn't wage a campaign to do away with the pledge or uttering Christmas wishes. Didn't say someone saying "Merry Christmas" was shouting religion or shoving religion down their throats. Just didn't say it themselves. Living their lives, honoring their choice and the choice of others to believe.
Then, ... we have something else. Some non-believers, some, seem to be waging a crusade against religion. That's where, I think, people begin to think non-believers actually believe. Some seem to be dedicated to turning people from their faith and destroying religion. Some.
I know those non-believers usually say it's about getting people to question. Well, that's true for some. For others...? The tactics involved and the dedication given the cause lead me, at least, to think otherwise. The fact that the American Atheist website (before they recently cleansed it, making people become members to see more) had blurbs regarding the major faiths with arguments to be used against those people and a clarion call to be disrespectful to believers in order to "throw water" in their faces, figuratively, to wake them from their religious stupor ... all with religious words and phrases, including conversion, veers from simple questioning.
That's where, I think, things get sticky.
Now, one could ask why some non-believers take that tact. Is it belief? Not the belief in a supernatural power but the belief that religion is the cause of all evil?
At this point, I think that might be so for some. Again, for some of the more, struggling for a word ... Well, for the non-believers who dedicate part of their lives to undoing faith and religion, I truly think they do so due to a belief that religion causes all of the horror and evil that takes place in the world. Thinking back to some conversations here over the last few years, I'd say that just might be.
That's what I wonder about when I think of non-believers and belief.